04/02/2005
He's Gone
Pope John Paul II was never good to the gays.
When Pope John Paul II came into power he set a different course for the Catholic Church's policy on homosexuality, which had begun to take a more tolerant tone during the 70's.
The first statement from the Vatican under his guidance came in October of 1986 in a letter to Bishops of the Catholic Church. In a nutshell, it said that even if homosexuality is genetic it is still an "objective disorder"; even if it is not a sin, it is still evil:
“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder. Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed to those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not.”
His second statement came in 1992, in response to new gay rights legislations being drawn up in the U.S. He basically said that when the rights of homosexuals are protected, family and society are threatened.
“Recently, legislation had been proposed in some American states which would make discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation illegal. ...Such initiatives, even where they seem more directed toward support of basic civil rights than condonement of homosexual activity or a homosexual lifestyle, may in fact have a negative impact on the family and society... Even when the practice of homosexuality may seriously threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people, its advocates remain undeterred and refuse to consider the magnitude of the risks involved.”
His third major statement came most recently, in an excerpt from his book, Memory and Identity which was summarized as:
Homosexual marriages are part of "a new ideology of evil" that is insidiously threatening society.
We can all hope that in his passing the Catholic church will seek a path toward enlightenment, but in light of the more fundamentalist grasp on religion in the world today, it's hard to be optimistic.
Posted 4:30 PM EST by Andy Towle in Religion | Permalink
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can i get an, AMEN?
Posted by: dave | Apr 2, 2005 4:57:27 PM
Amen
Posted by: Digger | Apr 2, 2005 5:00:16 PM
Hard to feel sorry for such a bigot. Interesting that he's thought of a person who promoted peace, and yet was highly intolerant at the same time. In a nutshell, summarizing the Roman Catholic Church that to this day completely misses the point.
Posted by: Gabe | Apr 2, 2005 5:05:07 PM
Amen
Posted by: matty | Apr 2, 2005 5:06:21 PM
The Church will never become more accepting of gays. But thankfully, it's influence in America has been waning for decades.
Posted by: cafegogo | Apr 2, 2005 5:18:06 PM
Thanks for you calmer words. I find it difficult to control my anger as this man who generated so much suffering, bigotry and disease is now glorified. His legacy includes his inhumane and bigoted positions on stem cell research, homosexuality, AIDS, birth control, especially birth control. Partly thanks to his Orthodox policies of the last 26 years we face a terrifying problem of global overpopulation and with that hunger, disease and destruction and depletion of natural resources. As for defeating communism, I thought the Republicans took credit for that under Reagan?
Posted by: Richard | Apr 2, 2005 5:25:31 PM
Not good for the gays but very good for the peace!
Posted by: YW | Apr 2, 2005 5:43:08 PM
Let's not forget his unyielding stance against condoms which no doubt led directly to tens of thousands (and that's being charitable) of new cases of HIV. Even with his (in my view, highly overrated) contribution to bringing down the Soviet Union and its empire, I'm hard -pressed to see his tenure as a positive good for the world.
Posted by: Glenn | Apr 2, 2005 5:46:50 PM
This man was definitely a threat to homosexuals living in peace. I do not mourn his passing. Nor do I expect his replacement to change anything. The good thing (for us) about the Catholic Church is that they continue to alienate their own people, with the scandals that we're all too aware of (especially here in Boston) and their lack of staying in touch with today's issues. Catholic has almost become a dirty word. My parents generation is still reluctantly going to church, but all of the 20 people the next generation down in my family have stopped going - that says a lot for a bunch of traditional Irish Catholics. Today's youth are not going to identify with this church, nor with its intolerace for so many things. The church has lost a tremendous amount of power in this country, and I don't think they've even realized how bad the damage is - though they'll surely find out as the churches continue to lose numbers, both in the pews and on the altar.
Posted by: Jake | Apr 2, 2005 5:56:54 PM
Wow. Your post is a helluva lot more diplomatic than the one I was thinking about making.
But then I decided to leave his death -- and his vile, repellant legacy -- unmentioned on my blog. As far as I'm concerned, he died alone and ignored. Which is just what he deserved.
Posted by: Jake | Apr 2, 2005 6:24:58 PM
Well, we're all being more compassionate to the Church then it is to us (that's why we still rock) - yes, it's never nice to see an old sick man die, whatever his damage is, but in his role as the head of world religion, he was uncompassionate, unloving, and against progress. I don't think he did much true 'good' for his people or his faith, personally, but my condolences do go out to all his followers.. I was raised Irish Catholic btw.
Posted by: Kevin | Apr 2, 2005 7:35:38 PM
Ugh.. I'm glad he's gone. Anyway, why are so many people upset about his death if he's supposedly off to meet his maker?
And, about his archaic stances, did any thinking people actually care what he said anyway? Nobody I know does...
Posted by: Tiki | Apr 2, 2005 8:04:22 PM
This Pope spent his time apologizing for the past mistakes of his church, the biggest of which was the creation of an atmosphere which allowed millions of Jews to be killed in the Holocaust.
Perhaps some future Pope will apologize for the anti-gay bias which puts the gay community at risk.
BTW, the Soviet Union collapsed for economic reasons as will the Roman Catholic Church. And the sooner the better!
Posted by: jessejames | Apr 2, 2005 8:09:55 PM
I find it laughable that everyone who has posted here so far--and Andy, too--has tried to hold the pope up to their own personal rubrics of what is good and proper; Pope John Paul II came from an extremely socially conservative upbringing in Poland and worked as pope surrounded by cardinals and other clergymen who affirmed his traditional views on homosexuality and condom use, among other things.
Many of you will agree that Christians have committed many vile acts during the existence of the religion: the pope apologized for the Crusades, the persecution of the Jews and the demonizing of scientists such as Galileo. Furthermore, he emboldened the Polish (and others in the Eastern bloc) to demand more liberty and rights from their communist slave-drivers, something that eventually helped to wipe away the possibility of M.A.D.
Within such an aged institution as the Roman Catholic Church change cannot happen all at once and I completely disagree with your narrow-minded condemnation of the man that is revealed here in these comments. I am not Catholic but I am a gay Christian, and I am happy that he has passed on and is out of physical pain. You all can say whatever you like, but please consider the man and his church before you lay such general blame on him. In other words, be tolerant of other upbringings and perspectives.
And yes, a future pope will apologize for the anti-gay bias that the church has encouraged, but, like anything, it will take time.
Posted by: Richard | Apr 2, 2005 8:26:15 PM
The pope's narrow-mindedness and homophobia didn't exist in a vacuum. He chose to embrace and promote destructive, backward, hateful ideas in the face of pervasive realities about the benignity (is that a word?) of homosexuality and the suffering he was causing gay people.
In my opinion, any good he might have accomplished in the world is totally eclipsed by the harm he chose to do by perpetuating discrimination and persecution of us homos.
Posted by: Jake | Apr 2, 2005 8:33:56 PM
Did I mention the pope's humility and selflessness? We could all stand to learn something him in that respect.
Posted by: Richard | Apr 2, 2005 8:47:11 PM
He finally kicked the crucifix.
AMEN!!
Posted by: Newell | Apr 2, 2005 8:59:00 PM
God bless.
Posted by: Victor Victoria | Apr 2, 2005 9:07:24 PM
Richard, that's just classic, really it is: claiming that the ones who point out intolerance are themselves intolerant. It's become a favorite rightwing theme these days, because there are so many idiots who buy into it.
Well, let me just say proudly, YES, I am intolerant of hatred, bigotry, and intolerance. And YES, I expect that when a man serves in one of the most powerful political -- yes, political -- positions on earth, that he has an extra responsibility to promote human dignity including even for us homos. And NO, I don't believe, as you apparently do, that his religion, or his culture, excuses him from that duty or from taking the responsibility when he fails to live up to that duty. I'm tired of being "understanding" to those who won't return the favor.
Posted by: Glenn | Apr 2, 2005 9:13:54 PM
Richard, you are tolerant to a fault.
The Pope may be at this very moment answering to a gay Jesus, who was not as tolerant as Richard, ;)
Posted by: jessejames | Apr 2, 2005 9:22:06 PM
I understand that this site has a focus on gay issues, and JP2 constantly railed not only against gays, but also against condoms, contraceptives, and stem cell research. His positions on those issues are extremely one-sided and one can only hope that the Church will change in the future.
But at least have compassion for a man who was eaten away by disease and infection. And also realize that, as horrendous as many of his positions were, many were also even-headed decisions. The most famous is his opposition to the Iraq war.
Even though you may disagree with the man, at least be human enough to have an iota of compassion.
Posted by: Wunderkid | Apr 2, 2005 9:29:18 PM
Simply saying that pointing out the intolerance of one group who are used to calling others out for their bigotry is a "favorite rightwing theme" is an easy way to dismiss it. We, gays, are not above being intolerant of others who do not share our views and priorities. If we were so enlightened I would be reading less comments on here pointing out how the pope was such a terrible person and that it's good that he's gone. Do you expect a radical change in church policy when the new pope is chosen? I surely don't.
Being pope does carry with it countless responsibilities, not excluded being that which calls him to deal with those people in the church (and elsewhere) who are gay. I disagree with his policies (however they were formed and reinforced) on gays, condoms and AIDS--to be clear--but, even though this is a gay-themed blog, I think that it's shortsighted and selfish to condemn the man for one series of policies when he did so many other good things.
If you have to pass judgement, judge the whole man, not only that part of him with which you disagree.
Posted by: Richard | Apr 2, 2005 9:40:22 PM
Well frankly I'm glad this Poope has been flushed. Good riddance.
Posted by: Zeke | Apr 2, 2005 9:43:35 PM
I am not religious and not a catholic so I don't understand what all the clamour is about. He is dead, NEXT!
I was in a big denim store in Manhattan today (OMG) and they were blasting KTU and suddenly the DJ comes on and announces that the pope is dead. I looked around, no one seemed to care. All they were interested in was the best buy on a pair of Levis.
Posted by: richard the yankee | Apr 2, 2005 9:49:52 PM
Let's be clear, Richard: Yes, gays can be just as intolerant and bigoted as anyone else. I've heard racial epithets and misogynist crap from gay men that makes my skin crawl. But no one here's been doing that. All they've been doing is pointing out that this man took his powerful position and used it to, among other things, make life more miserable for those of us who are gay. And THAT's what you claim is being intolerant.
Well, that's just bullshit. That conclusion just means that no judgments are possible (as you seem to recognize in your closing sentence). I don't believe that. The Pope sure as hell didn't believe it. There's right, and there's wrong, and on this point the Pope was just fucking wrong. Period.
Posted by: Glenn | Apr 2, 2005 9:54:52 PM