08/18/2008
Obama and McCain Spar at Saddleback Church Forum
Barack Obama tussled with John McCain in a forum over the weekend at Pastor Rick Warren's Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, in the first quasi 'debate' between the two candidates. McCain was largely seen to have won the night by giving definitive answers that pleased the largely right-leaning religious crowd.
Politico analyzes six key moments from the debate and DailyKos has a round-up of some of the pundits' reactions.
Pam Spaulding takes down McCain on adultery over at LGBT for Obama.
There have been suggestions that McCain may have been better prepared for his questions because the "cone of silence" he was supposedly in while Obama was being asked his questions was the comfort of his personal limo where he could have been watching the debate. Andrea Mitchell suggested as much on Meet the Press and received a terse letter from McCain's campaign manager Rick Davis.
Other notes, McCain's definition of rich? $5 million.
The candidates were also asked about same-sex marriage.
Obama: "I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman...Now, for me as a Christian, it's also a sacred union. God's in the mix...The reason that people think there needs to be a constitutional amendment, some people believe, is because of the concern about same-sex marriage...I am not somebody who promotes same-sex marriage, but I do believe in civil unions."
McCain's answer: "Union - a union between man and a woman, between one man and one woman. That's my definition of marriage."
Watch the clip of Obama's same-sex marriage answer, AFTER THE JUMP...
Posted 10:48 AM EST by Andy Towle | Permalink
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"WOW when will this "enlightened" man move the dialogue past such an enbarrassingly [sic] low threshold. "
I'm an Obama supporter, and I totally agree. This was painful to watch, and reminded me that my vote for him will certainly not be without hesitation. I still think he's the best choice on a number of levels, not all of them GLBT-related. But this pandering to the lowest possible common denominator is really beyond the pale. It reminded me of the 1992 Republican convention where Pat Robertson and his ilk sucked up so hard to the fundamentalist christianists that they should've left the room with hickies on their necks.
If there were a job in my field in Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver... there'd be a big sucking sound and my partner and I would be gone.
Posted by: The Milkman | Aug 18, 2008 12:41:30 PM
"We need a lot less Shelly Winters here, and a lot more Lauren Bacall. "
OMG, Derrick... that was pure gold. Funny AND true. You are now, officially, made of the awesome.
Posted by: The Milkman | Aug 18, 2008 12:43:48 PM
Wait, so he's willing to afford us our civil rights, even though he holds "a different view." Well as much as he holds his nose while condescending to afford us our civil rights, I'll hold my nose as I vote for him.
And to Rocco -- unfortunately we will NOT get the government we deserve. The government we deserve is not running in this election.
Posted by: darb | Aug 18, 2008 1:12:40 PM
i love the irony that directly below the story telling us how, once again, obama does not support our demand for marriage equality there is the story about ellen/portia getting married.
Posted by: psgoodguy | Aug 18, 2008 1:16:28 PM
Derrick, et al., are right: because Obama is less than perfect we can let McShame win while we lose the opportunity for the rest of the lives of most of us for full gay equality via the fact that McShame is GUARANTEED to try to pack the Supreme Court with lifelong appointments of Troglodytes. Or we can recognize that others, including political candidates, are no more perfect than we are.
Raise your hand if within five minutes of realizing you were gay you had told everyone else, from your parents outward.
.......Thought so. NOW....accept the fact that Obama is not perfect on LGBT issues but is LIGHT YEARS, UNIVERSES, LIFETIMES better than McShame. And, back to the main point, would not appoint fascists to the Court that McBigot would.
As for Bob Barr being better than O on gay issues....uh, exactly since when? Barr is better, on gay issues at least, than BARR was years ago when he authored DOMA and fought to pour old military homophobia in new bottles and label it DADT which he now would repeal.
His support of the California Supreme Court's decision is NOT support for "gay marriage" but of "Federalism" and an individual state's right to decide such things for themselves....the EXACT position of Obama.
Bottomline: Elect Obama and gay rights will likely advance significantly with the possiblity of advancing even further.
Elect McCain and you can start partying like it's 1950 all over again.
Posted by: Leland Frances | Aug 18, 2008 2:01:41 PM
Why does everyone act so surprised every time Obama talks about gay marriage? He and Hillary have been saying this from day one. Everybody knows it but you act like it's a "new outrage!" Come on. You people shaking your fists & screeching "I refuse to vote for him" or "I will hold my nose" are the same fist shakers from months ago. He hasn't changed his position and neither have you. So why keep beating the dead horse?
Posted by: Q | Aug 18, 2008 2:05:49 PM
I see it and I hate it: the decline and fall of the American era. Too bad - it was a great ride.
Posted by: echovic | Aug 18, 2008 2:15:45 PM
happy anniversary streppsi
Posted by: daveynyc | Aug 18, 2008 2:16:28 PM
So, um, Saddlebrook had its tax exempt status revoked for meddling in politics, right?
Posted by: Iko | Aug 18, 2008 2:25:49 PM
SInce most Americans don't set high standards for their candidates, this is what they get...their excuse is "well, he is better than McCain" duh...really? this is the reason why we keep gettign same old shit over and over...they did good marketing with Obama, I will give them that credit. They KNOW..they will get your vote on one side or the other...his stands on healthcare, lgbt issues, foreing policy are sad, sad, sad....WE NEED UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE...period.
Posted by: Bosie | Aug 18, 2008 2:26:53 PM
NOTE: The California Supreme Court, which passed the landmark decision allowing us to marry, is made up of 7 Justices. Six of these were REPUBLICAN appointees. I will not buy into the scare tactics promulgated by Obama supporters about the dangers of a Republican appointed Supreme Court- their candidate will have to win me over on his merits alone. I'm still waiting.
Posted by: dc8stretch | Aug 18, 2008 2:31:52 PM
You know, the funny thing is we at least know where McCrazy stands. His view is clear and Barak seems to always shade and adjust his statements on LGBT issues according to the audience. that's the same old politics, not a change I can believe in.
Posted by: busytimmy | Aug 18, 2008 2:33:43 PM
Chill, everyone, please... McCain did a good job of staying on message (terror, terror, terror!!!), but made it quite clear that all he believes in is war.
Obama did something different -- he gave thoughtful, nuanced adult responses to the questions, and that's why we voted for him in the first place.
He beat the Clintons with nuance, raised more money than any other presidential candidate with nuance and simultaneously ran an efficient and transparent campaign.
He knows what he's doing, and we have to have some faith.
What's more, anyone who won't vote for Obama because he doesn't explicitly support gay marriage is missing the point. The legalization of gay marriage won't be up to the president, it's going to be up to the courts.
Just as with anti-miscegenation laws, restrictive housing covenants and segregation, the courts are going to have to go against the will of the majority (which is their job) and legalize it, just as has happened in every state where we can now marry.
So, that means you MUST vote for Obama, because he's going to put people on the bench at the federal and Supreme court level that will protect our rights.
Posted by: Cameron | Aug 18, 2008 2:39:04 PM
"Six of these were Republican appointees..."
Good LOrd. Who appointed them? Dukemajian or Arnold?
Roberts, Alito, Thomas and Scalia: Four Horse Bitches of the Apocolypse. They're a scare tactic all by themselves.
Your California Court may protect you, but with a couple more right-wing nuts on the U.S. Supreme Court...well, it may go back to facing a jail sentence for sucking dingdongs in Texas...and Kansas too.
Posted by: Derrick from Philly | Aug 18, 2008 2:50:42 PM
This was a stupid choice for Obama's first pseudo-debate. I'm sorry, but most evangelicals are not going to vote for a black liberal who favors abortion rights. Period. And he said so many things that alienated many of his base supporters. Very poor judgment call.
Posted by: Paul R | Aug 18, 2008 2:54:25 PM
ire you fuckin queers for real...? I say that as a fellow gay man....Obama CAN'T come RIGHT out and say YIPPIE for Gays to be Married...he HAS too WIn for Pete's sake! Obama is OUR ONLY chance of ever obtaining Equality..or partial equality (more then we have now)...sure his ideas of LGBT Marriage may NOT mesh with ours...But LOOK what is at stake people...McCain? This man wants to TAKE AWAY LGBT rights/while beinding over backwards for the Fundies... Don't be Foolish..VOTE OBAMA 08!!!
Posted by: Digusted Gay American | Aug 18, 2008 3:05:14 PM
"Deukmejian or Arnold"
Damn, I really f***ked his name up. Sorry.
But I can OBAMA though!
Posted by: Derrick from Philly | Aug 18, 2008 3:25:13 PM
BUSYTIMMY wrote: You know, the funny thing is we at least know where McCrazy stands. His view is clear and Barak seems to always shade and adjust his statements on LGBT issues according to the audience. that's the same old politics, not a change I can believe in.
AMEN! That is what I've always hated about Obama. He's so wishy-washy and tailors his stump speeches and addresses to the audience; whether its veterans, health care workers, Jewish Americans, LGBTs or automobile workers in Detroit. Same old bullshit!
I did not vote for her, but now, I really wish Hillary was our nominee. She may have been catty but she always stuck to her script and never wavered. Obama has turned his back on so many things since becoming the Presumptive nominee, that I seriously think he hoodwinked all of us with that Change and Hope spiel.
I'm sorry, but I can stomach 4 years of McCain (and his SCOTUS nominees) if it means we might have a President Clinton again or someone more worthy in 2012. I am really ashamed of my vote for Obama and will not be voting for him OR McCain in Nov. We Democrats always settle for Better of the 2 Evils and let some better candidates slip away, blinded by flowery speeches and adulation (yes I was!) We deserve what we get.
Posted by: Geoff K | Aug 18, 2008 3:26:58 PM
@DISGUSTED GAY AMERICAN
Of course everybody here should vote Democrat, because your "democratic" country has a whopping choice of TWO parties. But saying Obama is better than McCain is a bit like saying sh*t is better than diarrhea. But Obama's evasive, and in this case, ridiculous answer still are disgusting. Obama is saying the equivalent of:
"I think it is unclear that blacks and whites should have the same rights, I believe marriage should be between a white person and a white person. If a white person wants to marry a black person, let's call it 'civil unions' so we don't ruin the nice name.
Oh, and as an aside to Rosa Parks, can you please hush up and just move to the back of the bus already? Your time to sit in a seat will come, just NOT NOW.... America's not ready, so be patient."
Hypocrite.
Vote for Obama.
AND...
FUCK BARACK OBAMA.
Posted by: Strepsi | Aug 18, 2008 3:31:55 PM
Disgusted Gay American, if Obama can't "come RIGHT out and say YIPPIE for Gays to be Married", does that mean he's just saying what he thinks people want to hear (depending on which crowd he's in front of or to whom he is speaking) to get what he wants from them? That sure sounds like more of the same old same old to me.
The fact that they would both be so weak as to feel they needed to pander to the fundies by appearing at one of the wacko mega-churches to answer questions is completely disturbing.
It just confirms the fact that there is a Christian-based litmus test in this country that is NOT supposed to exist...and rather than fight against it, we get pandering puppies lined up to lick the preacher's boots.
I would love for there to be a poll done that asks Americans if they are happy with either of their two choices for President. I'd be willing to bet that over half would say "No".
Posted by: paul | Aug 18, 2008 3:43:41 PM
Very powerful statement, STREPSI, but what can a president do to make the Congress legalize same sex marriage? All he CAN DO is make sure the US Supreme Court doesn't rule Massachusettes', California's, Vermount's & New Jersey's (marriage & civil union) laws unconstituional when some right-wing kook challenges those laws.
Barack Obama is a politician. It is not politically advantageous to a candidate for president to do what Governors Deval Partick and David Patterson have done on a state level...very liberal states.
Posted by: Derrick from Philly | Aug 18, 2008 3:51:54 PM
I'll have to agree with PAUL R and PAUL (are they one in the same?) It is plain cold hard fact that the Christers must be appeased in this country. But if Obama is paying lip service to the Christers to get their vote and will sell them out once he takes office what does that say about him? What will he do to the gays? I fear his appearance on Saturday night's forum was most unfortunate and did not inspire much confidence in most of us. It may cost him the election.
Posted by: shelley winters meets lauren bacall | Aug 18, 2008 4:00:36 PM
Sorry, Geoff, but you're underestimating the damage McFascist would do in even one term, in which as many as three Justices are expected to retire, overestimating what ANY better President COULD do, and forgetting that Supreme Court appointments are, if they choose, "for life." Many a Justice has outlasted several Administrations. This year marks John Paul Stevens THIRTY-THIRD year on the Court! He replaced William O. Douglas who had been there THIRTY-SIX YEARS!
Through a combination of their charter over the Executive and Legislative branches of our government and the failure of those branches to act, or their Constitutionally-eroneous actions, more civil rights issues end up ultimately being decided by the Supreme Court than by the President or Congress.
Does your disappointment in Obama JUSTify three decades of judicial tyranny?
Posted by: Michael Bedwell | Aug 18, 2008 4:04:52 PM
BUSYTIMMY wrote: You know, the funny thing is we at least know where McCrazy stands. His view is clear and Barak seems to always shade and adjust his statements on LGBT issues according to the audience.
Are you fucking kidding me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeBw28tX5Nw
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mccain+flip+flop&search_type=&aq=0&oq=mccain+flip
Posted by: soulbrotha | Aug 18, 2008 4:05:34 PM
I must have been watching a different forum because from what I saw there wasn't any sparring at all. Obama appeared, answered his questions extremely cautiously, shaked McCain's hand and took off. I am so done with this election. I'm voting for H.Q. Neither in 2008.
Posted by: Bran | Aug 18, 2008 4:10:53 PM