Comments

  1. shoepins says

    Why do gay people, particularly white gay people, assume that just because you’re black or any other racial minority, you automatically understand or empathize with gay people just because they happen to be a minority? I don’t assume that just because a white woman happens to be a minority that she won’t be racist.

  2. The Gay Numbers says

    I have a better question- why is Dan Savage going on the show to discuss race and gay marriage? Where is Keith Boykin? For that matter, where are the clergy on this issue who support gay rights such as marriage?

    It seems odd to have Savage as the spokesperson because in someways he gets stuff just wrong. Unless you are gay white male, then what he says are perfectly okay arguments, but I found myself both in this interview and those involving his Larry King appearance- going “wait, he doesn’t realize he has other counter arguments he could be making?”

    I get the feeling that a) Dan does not know many people of color and b) that he knows nothing or at least not much about religion. We need spokespeople who understand something other than the gay white ghetto frame of reference.

  3. says

    Like so many Professional Negroes, Hughley has no idea who he is or where he came from. Dan Savage is a great guy but he’s obviously unaware of the fact that key members of the civil rights movement were gay.

    The March on Washington was created by a black gay man named Bayard Rustin.

    The most important writer on the civil rights movement was a black gay man named James Baldwin.

    The most important play of the civil rights era, “A Raisin in the Sun” was written by a black lesbian named Lorraine Hansbury.

    The most celebrated poet and writer of the Harlem Rennaissance was a black gay man named Langston Hughes and one of his most important allies as a black lesbian novelist and social histoiran named Zora Neale Hurston. In fact the enitre Harlem Rennaissance was a gay and lesbian movement!

    Has L. L. Hughley ever heard of these people?

    More important — have you?

  4. Alan says

    I’m pissed Dan didn’t clarify with DL his calling gay “a lifestyle.” I respectfully submit it must be categorized with the word CONSISTENTLY AND REPEATEDLY – “ORIENTATION.” One of the major tasks we gay people face is educating people, teaching them that we are not straight people who have chosen a lifestyle, to me that is the number one most important fact to get across THEN follow with the other stuff.

  5. Rolling Eyes says

    Dan Savage seemed to be off guard and unprepared. DL Hughley made some pretty outrageous statements like, “I’m not homophobic but I don’t agree with the lifestyle” which Dan Savage didn’t argue strong enough.

    Why aren’t people making the argument of the connection fo Loving vs. Virginia (Miscegenation Laws) to today’s gay rights marriage battle? Or posing the question to people who claim that civil unions are the same as marriage and ask “Do you want to trade your marriage in for civil unions?” I suspect then people will understand the brevity of the marriage and equal rights.

  6. Alan says

    Two quotes I loved…

    Savage: You get fired because you’re gay, you get fired because you’re black, you’re still out of a job. If your house gets burned down because you’re gay, burned down because you’re black, you’re still out of a house and maybe dead. Hate is hate.

    Hughley: One thing I don’t understand is the government involvement in our bedroom. They can’t even deliver my mail.

  7. peterparker says

    Why does Dan Savage agree with Hughley when Hughley says “I’ve seen a lot of people, gay activists, make the comparison of the same, uh, basically equating their struggle with the struggle of black people throughout the civil rights era.”? Certainly Savage understands that, like race, sexual orientation is not chosen. And certainly Savage understands that GLBT people face discrimination throughout their lives based on their sexual orientation. GLBT people have been denied housing, jobs, and equal protection under the law simply because they don’t share the sexual orientation of the majority of the culture. GLBT people have been beaten and murdered because of our sexual orientation over which we have no control. So how, I ask, does our civil rights struggle pale in comparison to the civil rights struggle of black Americans or any other group for that matter? These attempts to quantify suffering are ridiculous because it is simply impossible to accurately measure it. Our civil rights struggle is just as valid as that of any other group.

    And what is with Savage’s comment “I sobbed like a little bitch because I am a little bitch?”

    Normally I think Dan Savage is an excellent spokesperson for our community. I cannot understand what went wrong in this interview.

    As for Hughley’s comment, “I don’t condone the gay lifestyle.”…and I don’t condone ignorance. Go fuck yourself D.L.

  8. says

    I’m disappointed in Hughley; I thought he was a little more advanced in his thinking. In my experience, comics are typically the first people to realize when things are absurd, which is why most of them are befuddled by the Right’s nonsensical and puritanical loathing of gay people and gay rights. Hughley, surprisingly, isn’t. Sad.

  9. Pete says

    While D.L. comments about not condoning the “lifestyle” make me sick, what we are aiming for is equality. if that equality comes there will still be people who hate us and don’t approve. blacks in the US fought hard for their rights but racism is still alive and well today. in my opinion the haters can have their bigoted opinions as long as they are not enacting legistion to curb my rights. I agree people need to be educated. We need more than just a 2 minute discussion to air on CNN. It would also help if we had a more diverse set of gay people sent on these talk shows. I havent seen one black or latino gay person asked a question on tv yet!

  10. Cody says

    When will people realize that we don’t give a flying FUCK if they “condone the gay lifestyle”…really…what is “the gay lifestyle” anyway?

    That’s just as ridiculous as me saying that I don’t condone the black lifestyle. What is the black lifestyle?!

  11. The Gay Numbers says

    How is it Hugley’s fault that Dan is not the right spokesman for the audience in which Dan is talking?

    God, this is the No on 8 campaign apologists all over again. You would think you would learn some lessons. The first of which is choose different spokespeak who can talk to the audience that you are trying to engage.

    I actually think- as I said above- a sex columnist is not the right person to be the spokesperson on these issues. I like Dan’s column just fine, but he’s not someone who knows how to properly address talking to people who do not already think like him. This is the type of person we need. Not people that posters here because we are the choir.

    I wish people here and in the gay leadership were more objective about our failings.

  12. peterparker says

    Oops…I left off the remainder of Hughley’s comment which was “And that hits me even kind of wrong.” in referring to comparisons of our civil rights struggle with that of African Americans.

  13. Roy says

    Hughley is a schmuck. Gay lifestyle? What the hell is THAT? Wonder what he’d say if I were to refer to the Black Lifestyle?

    And he’s “never met a black atheist?” He needs to get out more, or perhaps just open his damn eyes. Who the hell gave a man this ignorant a show?

  14. says

    I think Savage is not the ONLY gay person to be having these many talks with, yet he is always on. In this case, when the 70% factoid came out about the black vote on Prop 8, he wrote a very impassioned blog that in the opinion of many black gay people (judging by a scan of blogs) went over the line and was quite offensive to them. It bothered me, too; the idea of “no more Mr. Nice Guy” in relation to the black community and this vote implies you’re just sort of tolerating blacks as long as they’re not homophobic, whether or not that was his sentiment. Then he pulled the blog, which angered people more. I just think there were other options, and Keith Boykin has been MIA for too long. Hughley can and probably will go to hell, if it exists, for saying he doesn’t condone my ‘lifestyle.’ He strikes me as someone whose own actual lifestyle is probably very wildly un-sanctified by the church indeed.

  15. says

    Peterparker: as a white gay man, I agree with Dan Savage when he agreed with Hughley that the two movements are not the same … similar, but not the same.

    Yes, in our nation’s history, some gay people have been victimized by an intolerant society, and many more were forced into lives of silence and denial. But it just doesn’t compare with forced bondage, slavery, legalized segregation, etc. We were treated as tho’ we were sick or perverted. Blacks were literally seen as less than human. The movements are similar, but any white gay person who tries to make inroads within the straight African-American community by suggesting that the two movements are practically identical just because neither race nor sexual orienation are chosen will fail.

    Dan is not suggesting that our movement isn’t valid. And he isn’t trying to accurately measure the suffering of the two communities. Quite frankly, you don’t need to quantify units of measure to know that white gays lecturing straight blacks on the importance of civil rights is a DUMB strategy.

  16. Cody says

    ARGH! March a little longer? It’s also absurd that people pretend that gay people haven’t been around as long as other people. Like we are a new breed…I would’ve put the smack down if I were Savage. This is ridiculous…

  17. bobbo says

    Wes: “Why do gay people, particularly white gay people, assume that just because you’re black or any other racial minority, you automatically understand or empathize with gay people just because they happen to be a minority?”
    Good point, Wes. It’s high time we called for all minorities to stop empathizing with all other minorities. Empathy is for losers! From now on, if you aren’t the same minority as me, the hell with you!

  18. JohnInManhattan says

    Hughley has never missed an opportunity to bash gays during his many appearances on HBO’s REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER. He’s an ugly man, inside and out.

    BTW, did you catch Tammy Lynn Michaels on Oprah recently? She used the loaded phrase “alternative lifestyle” while discussing gay rights, no less. M-O-R-O-N!

  19. Derrick from Philly says

    “Normally I think Dan Savage is an excellent spokesperson for our community. I cannot understand what went wrong in this interview.”

    Precisely, PETERPARKER, as THE GAY NUMBERS said earlier, why isn’t it Keith Boykin, Rod McCullom, Jasmyne Cannick or NOW, WANDA SYKES sparring with DL Hughley on this topic? Black people need to see black gay people take on black homophobes–even mild black homophobes.

    And maybe White Southern Christian fundamentalist folks need to discuss the issue with Southern White Gays. White Christian Southern fundamentalist and Black Christian fundamentalists seem to share the same misconceptions about what it means to be gay: a “lifestyle”–shit like that.

    (and I had no idea what words to capitalize in this comment: black,white, Christian, southern, etc.–it was exhausting.)

  20. says

    Perhaps if Dan and D.L. had more than 5 minutes and 49 seconds for this conversation, someone could have brought up Bayard Rustin and Lorraine Hansbury and James Baldwin and whatever they might have said about marriage rights. I’m pretty sure both Dan and D.L. have heard of them. Then they could eventually have gotten around to debating the word “lifestyle.”

    Dan did start right off by pointing out that the LGBT community and the Black and Latin@ communities are not mutually exclusive. (Should we start giving everybody acronyms? The Black, Latin@, Asian and Multiracial, or BLAM community?) But a brief television interview is no place to veer off point into arguments that are only tangential to the issue you came to talk about.

  21. Gregus says

    I’ve always though D.L. Hughley’s show was a very weak attempt to get into the space of The Daily Show. This compounds that. D.L. Hughley is just not smart and not funny. Jon Stewart could run circles around him.

  22. damien says

    Hughley’s never met a Black atheist?

    Where in the hell does he live? Obviously not LA.
    Regardless, I certainly do AGREE with much of what Hughley said, but I give him credit for having a calm and civil discussion about their disagreements. I don’t see that very often.

  23. Garrett in SF says

    I’m really starting to get sick of the line that our struggle is not akin to “The Civil Rights Movement”. How many gays and lesbians have to be beaten and tied to a fence post and left for dead before we can make that claim? How many have to die in The Holocaust before we get to be seen as oppressed? How many have to have their families and lives ripped apart, before they understand that oppression is oppression. Gays and lesbians didn’t run away from their families to the big cities like SF, LA, NYC for the fun of it … we did it many times for our safety and chance at a normal lifestyle. It is very akin to the slaves running from the South to the North for freedom.

  24. Jamal says

    Perhaps if our biggest concern in the wake of Prop 8 was to reach reach white big city intellectual voters, but our biggest problem is making inroads with religious Americans, middle Americans, and Black and Latino Americans, and Dan Savage is not the best person to do that. He doesn’t even acknowledge the fact that some religious groups bless same-sex unions. In order to fight religious and cultural/ethnic anti-gay arguments, you need people who have credibility in those communities, who can discuss issues from those perspectives. His responses are stridently secular without any understanding of religious matters and culturally bland. He is culturally incompetent to undertake the outreach to people of color and religious Americans that we need.

  25. Garrett in SF says

    Any why do we not bring up that Martin Luther King Jr. believe our struggle to be the same. Hell, The Civil Rights March (yes, capital TCRM) was organized by a gay man, Bayard Rustin.

  26. says

    Whenever the discussion turns to whose struggle is worse or harder, we all lose. Anyone’s civil rights being violated is a problem for everyone. I give Dan much credit as he’s been out there more than almost anyone lately. And I think it’s a bonus he’s in a committed relationship with a kid. Has anyone else noticed the major LGBT organizations have been practically absent the last 2 weeks? It seems like all of the moving and shaking is happening from the grass roots and from individuals like Savage – which strikes me as increasingly effective.

  27. CJ says

    I <3 Dan in the worst possible way. Dan, you should move here to Massachusetts! We got done what California couldn’t and I’m sure it’s just a cold here as it is in Seattle but with less rain. Give it a thought. Bean Town is pretty awesome.

  28. anon says

    This is the problem with civil rights as a “woe-is-me” race to the victimhood bottom. The conversations go: “I’ve been oppressed the most.” “No, I’ve been oppressed the most!” “How can you say that?? Clearly you don’t know how bad I’ve got it!” blah, blah, blah… And we’re one step removed from a Monty Python skit. Gaining marriage privileges has nothing to do with past victimhood and everything to do with political power. You have to assert the power you have and make it work for you. We aren’t requesting marriage rights, we are demanding them. Are opponents can throw up whatever arguments they think will stick, no matter how ridiculous, because that is purely a political tactic. These arguments are simply cover for those who oppose us to vote against us, whatever their actually reasons (largely selfish I should think).

  29. Alan says

    I thought the interview went really well when I watched it earlier, and after reading all these comments, I re-watched it, and _still_ think it went really well.

    If I were trying to have a conversation with someone and they started correcting my choice of words, I would get defensive, and distracted. Unproductive.

    If we say gay civil rights equals black civil rights, we lose the argument. Even if you think everyone’s civil rights matter, they are not the same. The struggles were not the same. Like Scott B said, Whenever the discussion turns to whose struggle is worse or harder, we all lose. And by equating the two, a lot of people get offended. Unproductive.

    I thought he did a great job of creating rapport with Hughley. He agreed with him a lot, which might be frustrating, but succeeded in having a constructive conversation. In the end, Hughley even said “…it might happen. I promise… I hope it works out for you,” which is a pretty good way to end a conversation with someone who doesn’t necessarily agree with you.

    And of course having a different guest would provide a different viewpoint. That doesn’t mean Dan’s viewpoint is wrong. It only means that he is not and should not be the only spokesmodel for all glbtlmnopq people.

  30. says

    I cannot understand in the least how D.L. Hughley got a show on CNN ??? It boggles the mind that valuable airtime on a news network was allocated to such a halfass excuse for a broadcast personality. He’s barely good enough for BET or FOX.
    meanwhile, thru all of Dan Savages appearances since November 4th, it doesn’t seem that he is able to put his foot down and plainly state the obvious… this debate for our civil rights has zero/nada to do with race… it is religion and oppression by religious believers that has absolute no place whatsoever in a civil rights political debate. It is very simple, people choose to believe in their religion and subsequently choose to judge and oppress others according to their religion.
    Someone else’s God has no place in anyone else’s life, period. When anyone mentions their religious view in regards to our civil rights they need to be corrected that such inappropriate behavior is unsuitable to the debate.

  31. Derrick from Philly says

    THere is a book by Horace Griffin “Their Own Receive Them Not” in which Griffin explains the “strange” relationship that the larger black community has with black gay people–they believe we exist, but we’re supposed to be invisible.

    White gays are forcing black church folk to deal with gays as a legitimate political/social movement–the problem is, then the face of “gay” becomes white.

    Yes, we need more black gay representation on venues such as Hughley’s show…other elequent voices beyond the ones I mentioned above: Reverend Kevin TAylor, Pam Spaulding, Taylor Siluwe, Clay Cane, Frank Leon Roberts…the black gay voices are out there–they just don’t get invited. It’s almost as though the media wants this to develop into a black vs gay conflict, and that’s stupid, sinnister, and deceptive.

  32. jamal says

    Why don’t the media invite these people on repeatedly to discuss gay issues?: Keith Boykin, Dr. Michael Eric Dyson, Pastor Carlton Pearson, Rev Peter Gomes, John Ameache, Jasmyne Cannick, Rod McCollum, Charles Barkley, Rep. John Lewis, Governor Deval Patrick, Wanda Sykes, Rev. Kenneth L. Samuel, Rev. Dennis Meredith, Common, George Takei, Rev. Jimmy Creech, Pam Spaulding, Rev Eric Lee, Julian Bond, Carol Mosley Braun, Cornel West, and Antonio Villaraigrosa.

  33. The Gay Numbers says

    Gay blacks do not get invited Derrick because TV likes fake contrasts. It would been extremely hard for DL to pull that shit with a black gay man. I, and half of my friends, would have read him. The reality is that I as an African American can say stuff that Dan can not. Dan simply was a bad choice to represent us in front of the a black audience. Another black person like me is. I agree with all of the choices that you mentioned. Any of them would have cut DL down, and summed up in a way a black audience would have understood. Instead, it became about white versus black. This is something that will never be understood. By having only white people represent the gay movement- the perception is that it is about race. By removing the race element- one settles on the real discussion.

  34. The Gay Numbers says

    Jamal:

    Gomes especially would be a brilliant choice. Here is a guy who a preacher and scholar and who is black and gay. He’s written a book on the subject in the form of Good Book. Even Boykin has written on the subject in One More River To Cross. I just don’t get it. Do these people not do any research? Is this only about career building?

  35. Michael Bedwell says

    Thanks to those who mentioned Bayard Rustin whom BOTH Professional Victim Hughely and Silly Savage need a lesson on, and every other gay person, of whatever color, left mute by pigs like Hughely and Jasmyne Coulter er Cannick. Let’s start with the fact that gay Rustin TAUGHT Martin Luther King, Jr., the finer points of Gandhian theory AND organized the Great “I Have A Dream” March on Washington. Here he is telling the truth over 20 years ago. Feel free to use it whenever anyone plays the victim card with you [after you remind them it’s not 1863]:

    “Today, blacks are no longer the litmus paper or the barometer of social change. Blacks are in every segment of society and there are laws that help to protect them from racial discrimination. The new ‘niggers’ are gays. No person who hopes to get politically elected, even in the deep South…would dare stand in the school door to keep blacks out. Nobody would dare openly and publicly argue that blacks should not have the right to public accommodations. Nobody would dare to say any number of things about blacks that they are perfectly prepared to say about gay people. It is in that sense that gay people are the new barometer for social change.

    Indeed, if you want to know whether today people believe in democracy if you want to know whether they are true democrats, if you want to know whether they are human rights activists, the question to ask is, ‘What about gay people?’ Because that is now the litmus paper by which this democracy is to be judged. The barometer for social change is measured by selecting the group that is most mistreated. To determine where society is with respect to change, one does not ask, ‘What do you think about the education of children’? Nor does one ask, ‘Do you believe the aged should have Social Security?” The question of social change should be framed with the most vulnerable group in mind: gay people.”

    Or, as Mel Boozer, the black president of DC’s Gay Activist Alliance when he addressed the 1980 Democratic National Convention, put it:

    “Would you ask me how I’d dare to compare the civil rights struggle with the struggle for lesbian and gay rights? I can compare, and I do compare them. I know what it means to be called a nigger. I know what it means to be called a faggot. And I can sum up the difference in one word: none.”

    AND Rustin again: “Our job is not to get those people who dislike us to love us. Nor was our aim in the civil rights movement to get prejudiced white people to love us. Our aim was to try to create the kind of America, legislatively, morally, and psychologically, such that even though some whites continued to hate us, they could not openly manifest that hate. That’s our job today: to control the extent to which people can publicly manifest antigay sentiment.”

  36. Alan says

    Some say gays should make inroads within communities of Color. I say we just skip them because imho they need us more than we need them.*

    Last time I checked, despite Barack being our new President, white people still – for the most part – are not having Blacks. Also, just look to the illegal immigration issue to see how a lot of people still feel about Latinos.

    *White gay people in the closet, I contend though very hard to prove, were probably instrumental in gaining minority rights in American History BECAUSE closeted gays (living in quiet desperation) could see the injustice.

    To me, communities of color shoot themselves in the foot by rejecting gay people, to me communities of color need gay people on their side whereas we can get what we need without them outside of letting a stupid mob pull a popular vote.

    Lastly, I would asked D.L. if Christianity was the religion of African American ancestors. The answer is NO. I would then ask him the origin of today’s African American Christianity and he would say it came from the Slave Masters. I would then ask him why would African Americans continue to buy into the religion of their oppressors and does this religion STILL keep them in check/keep them down. I say the answer is YES!

  37. asa1973 says

    @Damien: Really? Really? Please get some perspective from black gay people who truly have an understanding of both sides of this argument.

    Before black people in this country were allowed the freedom to move to the North, the overwhelming majority of them were owned property for generations. A systematic institution of daily, sub-human treatment as children – then as adults – without the ability to move away. Unless of course “moving away” meant attempting (usually unsuccessfully) to “escape.”

    Look…we want marriage. This IS a civil rights issue. Gay people have been oppressed throughout history. Before the birth of this nation and after. We are in the throws of and are continuing the Gay Civil Rights Movement. There are parallels to the Black Civil Rights Movement in this country. But it is not the same.

    The sooner we begin to understand this and approach the fight from this perspective, the more successful we will be. Please…all the gay organizations…all the gay blogs…all the coordinators of this fight, begin to enlist the help of gay black people to craft and communicate an effective message that is not myopic. I agree. Keith Boykin, where are you??

  38. MissNee says

    D.L.,

    I’m a black atheist. You can kiss my black ass and take your corny ass somewhere else.

    We are never going to see a change in the AA community when it comes to how they view the LGBT community until we start having our own stand up. Someone please put Dan Savage back on the shelf and let someone with experience (I.E….Gay and of Colour) go head to head with these people.

  39. Sebastian says

    Wow, Savage must really be desperate to stay in the limelight to go on a show that has a complete nitwit as its host who could tear him apart with words. Savage is the new Sarah Palin it seems with this need to talk about whatever it is, race? Gay rights? Savage is the last person to be talking about race after his vile comments and slurs on election day. Since he seems to only have one set of people who actually understand what he is talking about and no way was he going to change one black person’s mind watching that trash to see why the glbt’s are fighting for fairness and equality, why not an out black person to spar and put Hugley in his place??

    And, why did Savage seem so scared sitting next to the nitwit?

  40. Derrick from PHIlly says

    “To me, communities of color shoot themselves in the foot by rejecting gay people, to me communities of color need gay people on their side whereas we can get what we need without them outside of letting a stupid mob pull a popular vote.”

    What’s the use? Jasmyne, girl, I know why you say some of the things you say.

  41. MCnNYC says

    DID DL Hughley say he’s “not PARTICULARLY homophobic?”

    I guess that’s like as AVENUE Q says “everybody is a little bit racsist?”

    PARTICULARLY HOMOPHOBIC?

  42. asa1973 says

    @Gay Numbers: Good post. Thanks for the quotes from gay black people. The fight is the same in that we are asking for the government to protect the rights of all. What people have experienced in these two groups is different. I’ll always stand by that. But maybe I should stop arguing the point and just focus on equality.

    @Pierre: Really? Again…REALLY? What about those of us who are black and gay? Who supports us? Whom are we supposed to support? I’m gay and black. Should I ignore black people because I’m gay? Should I ignore gay people because I’m black?

  43. ggreen says

    During Comic Relief for New Orleans D.L. made it a point of slamming gays. Saying it was a false comparison of 200 years of slavery versus taking it up the ass. No mention of lesbians ever in his gay bashing probably because he doesn’t get sexually excited by the thought of 2 females getting it on. He’s living in NYC now girls go get him.

  44. The Gay Numbers says

    The real problem with Pierre’s comment is that like the GOP this term he doesn’t really get it. This country is demographically changing. We want to start talking to black and Latino communities because they are the face of this country in less than a few decades. If we do not wish to keep having these fights over and over again- we need to be reaching out to that future. Pierre’s mentality is what has made the GOP the party of just the South. We need to reach out as a community as the Democrats did as a party because that ultimately will place us as a part of a broader ruling coalition of just white folk. That’s why, in terms of hardnosed politics, you do not want just some white gay guys representing gay folks. As I said, the simple fact is that DL would not have pull that stuff with a black person. My first thought process was I would have said so like Solomon , DL you want to split the baby? You want to say because black folk had all their limbs cut off, that it’s okay that gay folks just hand their arguments cut off? I could get away that. Dan can’t. That’s the whole entire political point. That the lack of diversity in the gay white leadership of the movement prevents reaching out because of the very real race dynamics. We may not affect things in the short term with this, but its crucial in the long term.

  45. Rowan says

    Derrick:

    “they just don’t get invited.”

    Yes, but who does?? D.L is obv CLUELESS but he has self promoted in the crudest way to get the gig…which is as we know the ONLY way you can further yourself in the ‘media arena’..

    I wish Boykin would’ve pushed for this but he’s gone quite after his new site…

    :(

  46. The Gay Numbers says

    Typo:

    This:

    “You want to say because black folk had all their limbs cut off, that it’s okay that gay folks just hand their arguments cut off? ”

    Should read like this:

    “You want to say because black folk have had all our limbs cut off in the past, that means it okay, my other community, gays to have our arms cut off?” I didn’t no it was about keeping over which half of the baby to cut.

  47. Jeff says

    D.L. Hughley’s comment at the end of the segment, “…as a Black man, I can tell you that you’ve gotta march a little bit longer,” was just plain ignorant. Fact is that Gays and Lesbians have been marching for GLB rights since the 60’s. I personally marched on Washington, D.C. in 1979.

  48. Wes says

    BTW, post authors’ names are listed BELOW the posts, not above. Various people have mistakenly quoted others, including myself and Pierre it seems.

    Just a fyi.

  49. The Gay Numbers says

    Although irrelevant, DL’s point about length of struggle is correct just in terms of when African Americans started to fight. Remember that’s been a process of several hundred years. Not decades. But it’s irrelevant because no one should put up with unnecessary suffering.

  50. James says

    Prop 8 passed because of the so called “Gay Community”
    The same GC that ALLOWS so called gay & lesbian bars & nightclubs to double and triple card minorities. The same GC’s newspapers and magazines ignore complaints and are uninterested; I guess Brittany Spears is more important.

    As long as this is allowed we will NEVER have a true community. Allowing BAD gays & lesbians to cut off our arms hurt us all. We did witness what happens when Billy is double carded. He tells his grandmother, she tells her church. These are just two of the many reasons why AfrAm’s voted YES.
    Back in the olden days, long before Stonewall. Gays and lesbians did not have bars. The only safe places to dance were AfrAm nightclubs. “Oh we have our own bars and nightclubs now, we don’t need those people anymore” I guess people do not care to be kicked aside. I imagine many do not like the fact that gays & lesbians have the nerve to practice racism, except at election time.

    I know a lot of Gays & lesbians and their families who votes YES!

    Oh, we will all come together just in time to march together to our new concentration camps. United we stand, divided THEY WIN!

    Boycott any bar and nightclub that double and triple card. If their establishment is not for the whole community. Then it should not be supported by any of the community.
    Which establishments do you support?

  51. shoepins says

    BOBBO: The point I was trying to make is that it is naive to ASSUME that just because you belong to a racial minority group that you will AUTOMATICALLY be well informed and empathetic about the gay community. Particularly because the public face of the gay community is WHITE. Case in point Dan Savage (he should’ve invited Wanda Sykes). I think we need to push for more diversity in the media. We need to represent gay people of color and show those communities that we do exist and we are part of both the gay community and a community of color.

  52. Phil M. says

    Am I the only one who didn’t know D.L. Hughley even had a show?? Not that I would watch it or anything. Give me Chelsea Lately any night of the week (which happily, E! already does!!)

  53. Mark says

    Let’s see how this sounds…

    I’m not racist but I don’t “condone” the Black lifestyle.

    Because, you know, it’s all thugs, hos, single parents, drive-bys and ghetto bullshit. And they do so many things God hates and the Bible says is wrong.

  54. says

    DL Hughley’s show will be gone before too long. Not because of his veiws, but because he’s not especially funny and he always seems so self-conscious. After seeing this interview, he’s evidently not to smart either.

  55. Jon says

    Lame Mark, you sound like Savage with that nonsense and sterotypes, bey, hey, then again, maybe that’s how ya really feel. Savage is wrong and Hugley is a bad, lame joke that anyone with a clue would have skipped a “chat” with.

  56. Alan says

    I guess Black people don’t care what the widow of Martin Luther King Jr. called gay marriage a civil rights issue, denouncing a proposed constitutional amendment that would ban it.
    Constitutional amendments should be used to expand freedom, not restrict it, Coretta Scott King said Tuesday.

    “Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union,” she said. “A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriages.”

    Quoted from USA Today 3/24/2004

    Smart people can see the irony in that AA voted for Barack but then voted down gay people’s rights… and dumb people cannot, they cannot see irony in the first place which is the test for smarts (can you see the forest for the trees?).

  57. Sargon Bighorn says

    More “out reach”, yeah yeah blame the victim. Next time we’ll tell the rape victim to yell louder, fight harder, scream more, and dress modestly. Blaming the victim, sure is the way to go.

  58. Drewboo says

    Hughley somehow thinks that black people are the only group of people killed in the past? HELLO. Hughley keeps trying to inply that gay equality boils down to just gay marriage and cannot be compared to the civil rights movement of blacks. Um, actually DADT, Employment Discrimination (were not asking for affirmative action either, were not asking to create our own voting districts just non-discrimination), Hate Crimes, the list goes on of how much we are oppressed.

    Hughley should read a book. How did he get on CNN again?

  59. nic says

    i don’t condone ignorant people getting talk shows, yet this knucklehead and Sherry Shepard are there.

    why is this so hard to understand. no one gives a rat’s ass what your religious beliefs are. as americans, we are ALL endowed by YOUR creator with certain unalienable rights. WE hold these truths to be self-evident … all men (and women) are created equal. not only straight, religious, black men or white men. among the rights we should not be denied are Life, Liberty, and the most beautifully sublime part — the pursuit of Happiness!

    it was not for nothing that the founding fathers were products of the Enlightenment. just imagine the abstract nature of the concept of “the pursuit of happiness”. men 200+ yrs ago ideated about and aspired to a more perfect union. i am not glorifying the white men of the revolution, but they imagined a more perfect future.

    i am dismayed that black people would arrive in droves to take away civil rights from others. if we as gay people question why whites and asians voted more than 50% to approve gay marriage and a little bit less of 1/2 of latinos, who are preponderantly catholic and threatened by excommunication, voted to give equal rights to gay people, is it racist to ask why 2/3 of blacks voted against civil rights? give me a fucking break. the proof of the pudding is in the taste. and this pudding tastes mighty raw. i am sick and tired of gay black men offering lame apologias for black bigots, as if being black inoculates one of being a bigot, religious or otherwise.

    there is a time for soul-searching, but the time for soul-searching is within the black community. i do not abide black bigotry on the pretext of civil rights. the fall back position of nitwit blacks is “we are religious”, therefore we can be understood when we express our bigotry in terms of our religion. that is pure, steamy bullsh*t. when we have a black president and a black atty gen, isn’t it time to let the victimology go?

    is it racist to say let’s call a spade a spade? or is it just a figure of speech? either way, we cannot keep killing the messenger. get real.

  60. Bill says

    LMAO!!! Good one Mark.

    I don’t want the gay civil rights movement compared to the black civil rights movement. It offends me. The gay civil rights movement is a global movement. It’s unique. Gay people have to discover their identity. An identity that was denied to them for millenia. Gay people almost always are raised by heterosexual parents. Gay people are raised in a largely heterosexual environment, in a heterosexual populated world. Finding other gay people and organizing is more difficult.

  61. Paul says

    @Alan,

    I have often thought it strange that african slaves abondoned their ancestral religions and turned to the very religion that was used to oppress them and condone slavery.

  62. angrywhitegay says

    Correct me if I’m wrong but the gay rights movement started sometime before the bible was written. That’s why we got mentioned in it. (you know…..those verses the conservative christians, baptists, mormons, etc. love to quote to make their points.) That’s a few thousand years worth of discrimination we’ve suffered, not just a few hundred.

    There are countries in this world TODAY where it is illegal to be gay and you can be executed or at the very least locked up for the rest of your life. So who has the bigger civil rights cause now?

    FYI….I am not a racist. I understand every segment of the population must take some blame for the passage of marriage bans, no matter what the color of your skin is. However, I was just deeply hurt that a minority group, who so recently themselves were subjected to intolerance, showed us the least tolerance.

    Sorry if I come off like a bitch. I’m just mad.

  63. says

    Hughley can kiss my lily white ass. There wasn’t one intelligent word come out of his mouth in that whole segment. Black people don’t have an exclusive on civil rights.

    This is so fucked up. We can’t even express a very justified anger at the black community without being called racist. That’s just too fucked up for words, as if the black community is above reproach.

    I’m not buying it.

  64. says

    And what about Mildred Loving herself? On the 40th anniversary of Loving v VA, her statement ended as follows:

    “Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don’t think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the “wrong kind of person” for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people’s religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people’s civil rights.

    I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about.”

  65. nic says

    @ANGRYWHITEGUY,

    i am an angry brown gay who feels equally betrayed. i worked my ass off for Obama. meanwhile, i was being double-crossed by the black community. i want an explanation. i want to know why my support of a black guy amounted to nothing. i challenge anyone to explain why blacks want to deny me equal rights when i have supported equal rights for blacks since the early ’70s. ‘fess up blacks, you let all of us down, and you know it. don’t drag the red herring of lack of out-reach to minority communities cross the path of what is undeniable.

    if we cannot be honest with each other, then why the need for Socrates?

  66. ANGRYGAYVULCAN says

    I am an angry, angry gay Vulcan (grrr, grrrrr). I too am angry. First, no one will acknowledge my existence outside of gay Star Trek conventions. Second, I am angry because you can not know if I am faking my anger or not, but I am angry. Grrrr.

    Signed: Live short and go on unemployment

    The Angry Gay Vulcan

    gRRRRrrr

  67. Lenny says

    I don’t know if anyone watch the Black in America specials on CNN…but DL Hughley and his son were featured on that in a segment about racial profiling…I was watching it with a black gay friend of mine who, upon seeing and hearing DL’s son, clucked his tongue and said, “The son of his is extra.”

    I didn’t know what that meant, but upon explanation I chuckled innocently. I chuckled karmicly after watching DL and Dan’s ridiculous conversation.

  68. nic says

    @ANGRYGAYVULCAN,

    your pointy ears must be itching big time, AKAISON, because everyone is laughing at you. but, really, why should anyone acknowledge your non-existance. you’re a turd. gRRRrr!

  69. GregV says

    “Correct me if I’m wrong but the gay rights movement started sometime before the bible was written. That’s why we got mentioned in it.“

    Actually, AngryWhiteGay, the word “homosexual“ never came up in any version of any Bible until 1946. In the original words of Paul (the Koine Greek version} it`s never been there. But a lot of American Evangelicals like their new altered versions better than what was actually written by the Apostles. One American translator was so offended by the fact that men kiss men in the Bible that he decided to make a version where they just shake hands.

  70. BC says

    I agree with the several people expressing that Dan Savage does not need to be the spokesperson. The “…because I am a little bitch” comment was so inappropriate and lame. No gay person I personally know sobbed when Obama won. I smiled, said a quick prayer and watched the speeches (then again, I don’t rely on a president to determine my happiness, but I digress…). We do need “regular, every day, guy/girl next door” gay people speaking for us. A “little bitch” who writes a sex column is not my spokesman. Especially when he implies that over one issue, he wants to move to Canada. You know what the homophobes said to that, “GOOD, LETS KEEP VOTING THESE THINGS DOWN!!” Yes, it is a HUGE issue for us, but there is no other country like the USA. Why do you think so many people of all backgrounds want to come here? Things will change, we just need to wait a little longer.

    I know we often have to take what we can get when it comes to who is willing to speak for us. But I would rather see straight supporters sometimes than Mr. Savage, or Perez Hilton (yes he was interviewed). Andy would be great. Kenneth Walsh would be great. How about Jason Bellini? Lets hope that our “non-bitch” community members and straight supporters will get on the air soon.

  71. Eric & El says

    We are pissed with both; Dan Savage for ignoring DL’s comments on us commenting our LIFE being called a ‘Lifestyle and DL for being an ignorant-condescending-homophobic-hetero….why does he even have a show I wonder?

  72. The Gay Numbers says

    BC

    He’s saying that because you do not think a white sex columnist being campy is the best choice to discuss marriage issues in front of a mostly black straight audience that means you are an apologists. We are suppose to be martyrs, not strategists. We should worry about the appearance of them not accepting all of us over them not accepting our rights to be equal under the law. Now, I don’t necessarily agree with you entirely, but your point about whether this is strategically the right person to talk to someone who is not a part of our choir is a good one.

    I said the same thing when they had him on Larry King Live. I did not think either he or the mayor of SF, both nice guys and both passion, reached any persuadable viewers because they rehashed the No on 8 campaign.

    As was discussed above, we need to be thinking of multiple messages that will target audiences in a way that relates to them.

    Others however want the moral victory of emotionally finally getting back at the straights for not accepting them despite what it would cost regarding the legal rights argument. ie, the whole “why should we have to argument religion” argument is besides the point to me. Yes, we are right we shouldn’t have to argue it. But in the meanwhile, we slow our ability to win on the issues down because we do not attack them on their own turf- the faith arguments that gay is a sin. By attacking them by saying- no its not a sin- we could peel some of them off. Rather than arguing that- we get guys like Dan- who mean well and is right- but is still strategically wrong.

  73. nic says

    @BC,

    as i tried to say before, civil rights for all people do not require a spokesperson. dan savage is as equally capable of conveying that message as anyone else. hence, stop apologizing; we should not be judging one against the other. when we get into this internecine fighting, we are just spinning our wheels. just look at AKAISON’s so-called joke posted under a pseudonym. if that was not a waste of my time and yours, then what is? i do not want to make an enemy of you or AKAISON. the larger question which needs to be responded to is, why did the blacks abandon the civil rights issue as it pertains to gays? i am waiting for my friend DERRICK from PHILLY or my frienemy, SOULBROTHA to answer me that. at minimum, i would like to hear from the blackest white boy i know, mr. jimmyboyo.

    exes and ohs to all.

  74. 24play says

    Brucie (BC) is such a Republicunt bootlicker.

    And his suggestions of gay spokesmodels?! With the exception of Andy, ludicrous. Vapid white boys. Remember what a disaster Kenneth’s stint guest-blogging here was?

  75. GregV says

    “…why did the blacks abandon the civil rights issue as it pertains to gays?“

    Nic, at least 3O% of black CA voters did vote against removing our civil rights (assuming that that poll had any validity}. Every black civil rights leader I can think of was on side with us… But that`s not a majority of blacks. The majority of blacks alive today have never seen a time when they did not have equal rights under the law, and I`m sure that many (maybe 7O%…} have parents and grandparents who just watched while the movement was taken on by others.
    I don`t think you`d find many among those who voted “Yes on 8“ who`ve ever really done any constructive work for anyone`s human rights.
    Others HAVE done so. Dr. King, Coretta Scott King, Bayard Rustin, Mildred Loving, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, etc….. Every black person who ever understood the true meaning and method of human rights has been on side for civil rights for ALL, and all those civil rights leaders of the mid Twentieth Century I`ve ever heard of who are still alive are against these anti gay amendments.
    So we haven`t really been “abandoned“ by anyone. Just because some individual is black doesn`t mean he`s ever said or done anything to advance equality.

  76. The Gay Numbers says

    Well, I guess Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Ganhdi, Desmond Tutu, Ceasar Chavez, Nelson Mandela and Coretta Scott King would be surprised to know that movements do not require the proper leadership. Apparently any old person will do. Wow, but for NIC, I would never learn anything bout anything. Thanks Nic. You certainly are convincing.

  77. says

    Someone above was adamant about using the word “lifestyle,” preferring orientation.

    Orientation? Huh? Being gay is an orientation? Is there a hetero orientation? I think not. Orientation means, “the direction of someone’s interests.”

    Is that what your sexuality is? A direction? If sound, that sounds like it can be manipulated. My sexuality, much to the dismay of many folk, is rock solid.

  78. nic says

    THE GAY NUMBERS,

    don’t hate me because i’m smart! ha! casting aspersions like a caged ape slings shit does not become anyone. i posed a legitimate question. and that question still remains: how comes it that 70% of blacks voted affirmatively to strip us of our rights?

    presuming that i am in any way racist offends me. calling me crazy is a lazy-assed way of saying that your argument is as threadbare as your reasoning. we need to come to terms with these questions. serious up people. we just elected the first black president and he is getting ready to appoint the first black atty general, and hillary could be the next secy of state. it’s all good. but why did we take a step back in california?

  79. TylerAnthony says

    actually RACE is a choice: it’s a social construction. If we talk about ethnicity, that’s different, it’s natural. Race as in White Black Red Yellow Brown are not biological facts. People actually choose or are given that choice.

    You can look at people of specific ethnic backgrounds and guess their background. Many Italians / Sicilians look it. Many Germans (even those in America) look German, Swedish look different from Irish. Koreans look different from Chinese

    From heights, body structure, noses, hair textures, skin coloring, eye formation, jaw lines, feet shape:wide,flat,long,high arches, these things show ethnicity and are biological or natural. Gay & Straight are social/political terms as well, nor do they full tell a persons full sexual orientation. There are many Straight Bisexuals and Gay Bisexuals. It’s ok for “Straight” women to indulge in bisexual sex, as long as you don’t cut your hair and start dressing boyish. It’s social constructions.
    Sexual orientation is natural, but how it’s culturally-socially expressed is a choice.

    One clause of RACE is the ODR:One Drop Rule (one drop of African/Negro/Black blood makes you a slave or Black) It’s all a social/political construction invented in the 1800’s. When brown Italians are white and fair skinned Mulattos are Black, it should make u think.

  80. Derrick from Philly says

    “…and that question still remains: how comes it that 70% of blacks voted affirmatively to strip us of our rights?”

    NIC, because they believe that sexual attraction is a choice, and does not constitute status as an oppressed minority in America–especially if you’re a white man.

    I’m far more interested in that 30% who’ve listened to and understood the message over the last 30 years: that “gay” is inborn, it is not a choice. How do black gays get more black people to think like that 30%? Hostile outsiders are not going to help.

    As far as Gay Americans of other nationalitites voting for Barack? For the same damn reason this black gay (me) voted for Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Dukakis, Mondale, Carter: HOPE.

  81. BC says

    Nic: I appreciate your comments and I better understand now. I mostly agree with you. And I am upset that since you are raising real questions about various populations that voted for Prop 8, you of course are being called names. It is coming down on both sides to, “If you don’t believe how I believe, then you are racist/sexist/homophobic” and god knows what other names people are called.

    However, I am not apologizing. I simply believe that the more “every day” people we get out there to get our message across, the better we will be. Lets get the doctors, nurses, lawyers, construction workers, computer guys, police officers, secretaries, factory workers, etc. out there and try to help 5 people they know understand where we are coming from. Imagine if we each got 5 people who view gay marriage as “wrong” to at least consider the civil rights issue here as opposed to the religious issue. My fear is, if we continue to attack religion, religious groups and a political party that at least 48 million people voted to win the election, we are doing more harm than good. 90% of the country is religious. We need them to have our rights, whether we like it or not.

    My intent is not to seem apologetic. I’m offering my view of things from where I stand. Just because it doesn’t fall in line with from others’ views (24 play), I’m sure I’ll be hated on by some. But maybe, just maybe, there needs to be some of both – the “angry gay man” and the ones who are willing to talk to everyone they know, calmly and rationally, to make some real, grassroots change.

  82. TylerAnthony says

    I think a lot of people overreacted to this clip. I didn’t see DLHugley as putting down gay people (he needs to be educated on the Lifestyle over Orientation,I even hear gay people say lifestyle) or saying being black has it harder than being gay. It seems it put forth some questions and points (that in my opinion were easy enough to address) that many people AfricanAmerican or not may think or feel. I think he present a easy plane for certain thoughts to be address by (Dan Savage). Weither Dan did a good job is another point.

    Personally I don’t think the Civil Rights Movement of the 60’s can be compared. It’s just different. In actuality there most likely were White (gay) men who benefited and still are from being white in the 60’s, as well were probably and still are racist/prejudiced yet gay.

    For example he mentioned the ballot wasn’t clear to him, and he was conflicted about what to choose…he even said he didn’t vote for the ban.

  83. nic says

    BC,

    though my remarks are caustic at times, you and i share the same goals. equality under the law means just that. i have long since stopped giving excuses for myself, and i will not tolerate ignorance on any level. if we really believe in the idea that all people are created equal, does it matter who is delivering that message? why is it that blacks need a proper black face to tell them that? this is the stuff that dissertations are built on.

    and, ultimately, that IS THE QUESTION. if we force the moment to its crisis, if we dare to eat a peach, so what?

  84. John says

    Savage refers to himself as a “bitch” on TV. he has swallowed the masochistic, “I am inferior” pill. He does not even respond to the interviewer’s comment about not accepting the gay life-style. Savage’s behavior was so self-hating.

  85. The Gay Numbers says

    NIC:

    You are too funny to hate.

    The answer to your race question is because we want to take race out of the equation. That question you ask can be asked of anyone.

    Why did Brokeback Mountain do so well despite previous moves not? My argument would be because it took place in a blue collar/low income setting. Remember the leads were no particularly that big before the movie came out.

    The reality is that you want as many diverse voices representing the community as possible to demonstrate that its not all upper class gay white males. You also want this because it also means new ideas may filter through.

    Diversity is not a bad thing. You seem to think it is. That’s the amusing part. So yes, going into a black audience with a white guy will bring up race over sexual orientation because this is America. As Langston Hughes once road- race is a mistake upon which America stumped its toe long ago.

    If we want to take race or for that matter economics out of the situation we have to include other people. Its also just a matter of fairness to the diversity in our community. The assumption that civil unions are good for everyone, for example, is based on the idea that we can all afford to retain lawyers to cover any costs in which the CU is legally different.

    What about those blue collar gays? What are we suppose to do with their issues? Why aren’t we talking about a guy working in a factory who is gay who might lose his job due to that fact? The fact is an upper income white gay guy is not going to have the same affinities.

    I am not sure why anyone would dispute this. No one has said “never to Dan Savage.” What has been said “Dan Savage when appropriate.” Just like I wanted on that panel of religious people- some actual gays who are religious so that people can have a diversity. The assumption that all gays are atheist is the norm rather than some gays are and some are religious.

    See the point now?

  86. Scott says

    I havent seen much discussion on the lopsided vote in the central valley in general for Prop 8. I was born and raised in Fresno (so glad to live in Denver now lol) and I was looking at the election results for Fresno, Kern, Tulare, Kings and Stanislas counties and it was like 72% to 28%. The black community only makes up about 10% of the voting population in California, so I feel like it was the rural parts of the valley that we need to reach out to more importantly. A very large majority of that population is the rural latino/a population.

  87. The Gay Numbers says

    NIC

    You are such an angry person that a conversation is not possible unless someone, like BC had to do, actively tiptoes around your anger.

    That’s never going to happen with me.

    SCOTT

    My friend described driving through the Valley- seeing nothing but Pro 8 signs.

    But it’s not a mainstream discussion.

    As for race- One of the reasons, people question the Exit Polling data is that Watts had a 60/40 split rather than the 70.

    Not a great number, but closer to the pre-election numbers of 58 percent for Prop 8. David Mixner mentions a study of LA County precints that is in accord with the 60 percent mark.

  88. banjiboi says

    @ THE GAY NUMBERS

    I find this whole back and forth to be extremely exausting, saddening and frustrating.

    I equate trying to explain the differences of opinion on this subject akin to discussing religion.

    SOME PEOPLE EITHER CANNOT OR REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE what might be a fact or what is valid in terms of matters involving sexual orientation and race, which I believe is the true focus of this subject.

    The really sad part is that the gay community as whole will always suffer this division until the core community at-large addresses the issues of racism that is PREVALENT throughout. Some of it is rather blatant, as one commentor pointed out with the triple ID scenarios, and of course, some of it is more subtle, just as it is for all of society as a whole. I really don’t expect it to change, if you want to know the truth. The level of ignorance I’ve heard spouted here seems to be of such a an insurmountably high degree, that I simply give up. I’m tired. But keep fighting the good fight, my friend. I’ll put my energy into other actions that will hopefully make a difference.

    Furthermore, Dan should just back away from this. Why hasn’t he, himself, even educated DL and referred to the other gay black spokepersons (Boykin, McCollum, etc.),who could best explain our perepective and experiences? Why hasn’t the MSM?. I sense both a sense of raging ego and ignorance on his part, and I’ve no further respect for him at this point.

  89. The Gay Numbers says

    BANJIBOI:

    It’s complicated. I agree with parts of what you say. Some parts I don’t agree.

    I believe its a two way street. Both groups, blacks and gays, must reach out to each other. Morally that’s how I view life. We ae all in it together.

    But, practically, there is the reality check. We are the group seeking to convince others regarding our rights to equality. Therefore, the greater burden is on us. It does behoove us to not participate in any racism as gays. Now, I am black, so when, I say “us” I am really saying the white gays. And, yes, I have experienced some really crazy racism first hand. But, then I’ve also experienced homophobia from my fellow black folk. Neither is particularly pleasant.

    I am also exhausted. So much so, that I am going to spend the next few years focused on just building my business rather than worrying about gay rights. Unless I see a sea change in gay leadership and a lessening of the apathy, then, in which case, I will get more involved. I am just not willing to fight against the crazies on both sides. Too many people, with too much damage. My friend calls them the walking wounded. It’s sad, but that’s the reality.

    NIC:

    People who don’t care don’t type, ‘I don’t care.” You really are very funny.

  90. Steven says

    This southern WHITE sissy is OVER the rethoric discussed in these comments concerning White/Black… First off, WE–meaning, the entire homosexual population (men/men–women/women) have been tortured, murdered, and vile issues turning to death THROUGHOUT the course of history, not just American history, but WORLD history. There is NO comparison of what perceptions Blacks must have towards our gay movement, but when it’s a white gay man–get real! I’m white, fucking proud of it, and color has never been an issue in my life–until now. I will not tolerate the black communities portrayal of white gay men, such as Dan Savage, or myself, as NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO HAVE A MOVEMENT FOR CIVIL RIGHTS AS COMPARED TO THE BLACK COMMUNITIES MOVEMENT! We have suffered throughout history and still to this day. There is no such thing as reverse racism, it’s just racism and blacks, especially those church-going black men/women are just as RACIST as whites. Move to the deep south should you have any doubt.

  91. nic says

    @STEVEN,

    i am with you on this. i am a mexican-american. i live in texas. i visit south padre island on occasion. the reason it is called padre island is that padre (father/priest) nicolas balli tried to establish a cattle ranch there, after getting a spanish land grant. my forebears were huge landowners way back when the rio grande (the rio bravo) was not a border, but merely a river. my people have been systematically stripped of our lands, our rights, and our dignity. mexican americans were declared “white” by virtue of government edict, because we are part spaniard. but the ugly little secret is that we were realy declared white so that we could be tried by a jury of our peers (anglo-saxons). hence the subjugation of a once proud culture.

    my overall point, STEVEN, and this is why i am with you, we all have hurts. no ethnic group has a patent on discrimination. blacks seem to think that all people should defer to their suffering. well, welcome to the club. mexicans were also lynched and sold into slavery. mexicans had their riches stolen from them. in this case, epilogue is as good as prologue. america has a sad history of displacing people, of over-arching greed, of the folly of eminent domain, of silencing voices, of snuffing out lives.

    if anyone has the balls to speak out for us, i could not care less about his or her ethnicity, be it a white guy or a black girl or a latino. we are in this fight together. i want to see it won in my lifetime. we are on the cusp boys and girls.

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