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05/28/2009
Pastor Miles McPherson and Carol Leifer Debate Marriage Equality
In addition to Takei and Altman, Larry King also hosted Pastor Miles McPherson of the Rock Church (who says he isn't anti-gay just "respects the definition of marriage") and comedienne Carol Leifer who is raising a son with her partner. McPherson's arguments are really weak.
Watch it, AFTER THE JUMP...
Posted 10:45 AM EST by Andy Towle in Gay Marriage, Larry King, News | Permalink
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"Carol Leifer who is raising a partner with her son"
Rough night Andy?
Posted by: Mike | May 28, 2009 10:52:24 AM
Carol Leifer is raising a partner with her son? What an unexpected revelation!
Posted by: Chris | May 28, 2009 10:54:10 AM
I knew there was a reason my last realtionship didn't work. Apparently I need a child to help raise my partner.
Posted by: kujhawker | May 28, 2009 10:56:00 AM
I am sick of hearing that this is NOT a civil right! Marriage is a civil right! I just do not get it.
Posted by: RB | May 28, 2009 11:00:49 AM
She should have called him on whether he thinks their son will end up in jail, ipso facto style (no dad=jail).
Posted by: Mary in Iowa | May 28, 2009 11:06:05 AM
Since this is about maintaining the perfect baby factory of one man and one woman and nothing else, when does the pastor plan on outlawing divorce and single parenthood?
Posted by: Marty | May 28, 2009 11:12:10 AM
Jail and Drugs caused by no Mother or Father? Did the pastor know he was going to look and sound like an idiot? How about looking at the Culture in this Country to see if they can be raised to the levels of those in Amsterdam, Canada etc where Gay Marriage is legal.
Posted by: joe cooper | May 28, 2009 11:16:25 AM
He kept saying marriage was the only way to have a child, which was ridiculous and it took Larry to finally call him on that. The real argument that should be made when someone says "It's better to have a man and a woman raising a child" is this: "Supposing that is true, should it be ILLEGAL to be a single parent? No? Then obviously your problem with gay marriage is not about children, it's about being against homosexuality, fundamentally." Period.
Posted by: Matthew Rettenmund | May 28, 2009 11:20:06 AM
When they say it's not a civil right, really what they are saying is you, gay person, are not a valid person. That's the crux. Period.
If you really listen to their side, especially the older ones, they just don't understand that being gay is not a sex act. Maybe we should hammer home the point that 99.95% of our time being gay people happens entirely clothed. If you listen to their claims it all comes back to invalidating us as people...but not you Carol, you must be a wonderful mother. Ugggghhh - it is so maddening!
Posted by: Quint | May 28, 2009 11:26:37 AM
Since the pastor thinks we should be allowing only those marriages that will give the children the best opportunities and upbringing, then we should outlaw marriage between poor people. Lets look at the imprisonment rates for those kids, versus rich kids.
Leifer is, unfortunately, a lightweight. Can we please distribute a pamphlet to all the gays so they are equipped to shoot down the bigots' arguments quickly and rationally?
Posted by: Chip | May 28, 2009 11:31:00 AM
Ask the president to respond-http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
Posted by: Nate | May 28, 2009 11:31:42 AM
LOL Blame Gay Americans for kids going to jail, being unhappy, becoming thieves, what ever! Yup it's those nasty Gay Americans that make kids delinquents. If Gay Americans were not asking for Equality kids would be so well behaved we'd all stand and stare.
I'm surprised Carol was not insulted with the statements about polygamy and incest or statutory rape, as the Pastor suggested Gay Americans are pushing for these things.
Why are so many Gay spokes people such wimps?
Posted by: Sargon Bighorn | May 28, 2009 11:33:53 AM
I am sick of poor representation of this issue by poor-spokespersons such as this...he makes all kinds of easy-to-counter claims, and she makes jokes. I like her as a comedian, and she speaks from her heart about her case, but she does little to prove/present our case against their outlandish stands.
Someone needs to distribute the counterpoints and get some real PR people who can organize our case in clear, concise, and well-stated points to use against their general, mis-informed, bigoted, fearful arguments.
Someone should also get our side some lessons on how to debate like a person, not a professional debaters, so we can know when we are being played by strawmen arguments, misinformation, talk-over, etc.
And the first questions each gay-marriage proponent is:
1) Do you (the opponent) believe gay people are evil? (this *is* a break off point for and requires a yes/no answer ONLY. It's tangent builder I know but it needs to be asked)
1a)Should the State have any say on who can get married and have children when it's two unmarried consenting adults [i.e., should the state regulate marriage/child-rearing beyond the factors of the current marriage status and not being severely mentally handicapped]?
2)Do you believe gays can and do enter into personal relationships that can and do have the same depth of love and intimacy and interdependence, such that we need the same easy to obtain protections of financial and healthcare support (i.e., do we form a life together that requires protection in case of death or health crisis, or children)?
3)And if so, and while you think that allowing gay couples to get married is the not an option, then will you go on record right now that a state and federal domestic partnership law needs to be passed immediately to protect those families equal in all rights to "marriage" without the name?
They are such unmitigated hypocrites and bigots if they don't answer these questions with a consistent mindset reflecting that gays are people too.
After the first minute or 2 of getting them to answer these questions (pound on them to "ensure we have a good understanding of each other's point of view"), then counter any claims they have on marriage being special.
And when they bring up religious groups being "forced" to recognize gay marriage, or marry gays, ask them if the Catholic church has to marry Protestants or Buddhists or Agnostics, etc.? {Correct me if I am misinformed about this, as I am not Catholic.] Tell them their reliance on "religious persecution" is taking the Lord's name in vain, as they have no basis for that claim at all, they are just using it as a cover for their bigotry!
Posted by: Robert in SF | May 28, 2009 11:34:28 AM
Why will no one go after these people. Be more forecful. Call them out on what they are saying. Don't be so passive if your going to confront them on television. She should have asked him if he thought, that if gay marriage isn't legalized, she he think there will be less gay people, or that the gay people will just go and marry a opposite sex person.
Posted by: Alex | May 28, 2009 11:37:00 AM
These religious folks are shameless.
Wasn't Jesus Christ without an (earthly) father? Wasn't Mary a single mother?
Further, the Pastor kept talking about not having a mother, not having a father. That's not the issue for the troubled kids. The issue is not having PARENTS to love and guide them.
Posted by: mrmnyc | May 28, 2009 11:37:33 AM
lol i second the motion that every gay that is to be interviewed should have better talking points lol.
in any case, this goes to show that the pastor has very little exposure to queer people. since when did bisexual mean polyamorous? isn't polygamy the bastion of heterosexuality? besides, it does exist in this world (and is practiced by... you know it... the straights!), and has existed in our culture too, until the church became opposed to it... so spare us the revisionist history please.
Posted by: daftpunkydavid | May 28, 2009 11:42:30 AM
She is funny and her personal story is touching, but a comedian is not a relevant spoeksperson for the cause in a serious debate.
I also have an issue with her openly proclaimed newish embrace of her religion.
She admitedly used to be a more cafeteria style only the holidays Jew. She admits now to going what I would consider right ward as far as religion goes. The whole concept of some toothfairy for adults law giver strengthens the fundies view. It discounts science and logic and leaves open the whole "this is what g-d said and that is how it is"
Sorry Carol but your moving rightward on religion just opens you up to the whole "god said...." BS and weakens our side.
It is so much easier for our side when we dismiss the anti-gay's greatest propaganda piece"god says..." BS.
Without their toothfairy for adults they have nothing! Science, nature (observed in the animal kingdom), and logic all side with US. The diety thing empowers our enemies. Even the most liberal intepretation of some deity gives aid, sucor, and validation to the fundies greatest tool against us. It "ENABLES"
Posted by: jimmyboyo | May 28, 2009 11:55:26 AM
She's raising a partner with her son.
Thanks Andy, much needed smile brought to my face :)
Posted by: Vance | May 28, 2009 12:12:14 PM
I really think the comments on our blogs are getting way closer the to point. We *are* maturing the argument. As Robert in SF says, just ask them this question, Carol. "I am a devoted loving parent, why should my family get less protection under the law?" then the preacher says "blah blah blah man and woman better blah blah" to which she asks "Ok then. Yes or no. Is my family less valid than a heterosexual parented family in your personal opinion? And again, yes or no are the only answers I will accept."
Posted by: Quint | May 28, 2009 12:17:34 PM
Well, according to Pastor McPherson, my two sons should grow up to be freaking amazing men because they have TWO dads. I'll pose this to Pastor McPherson in a term maybe his "I'm trying too hard to be a man's man" mind can understand...did the designated hitter rule in baseball make the game not baseball? Enough said.
Face it, the ridiculousness of the arguments against marriage for two consenting adults are leaky. Nothing in male/female marriages is designed to help a child grow up to be any better a person in the world today. Maybe when we were living in an isolated agrarian (sp?) society and we needed more bodies to work the farm, but not today. Kids are exposed to a plethoria of influences, role models, seductions, repulsions, successes and failures.
And FYI, being a Christian means you follow the word and example of Jesus Christ. If I hear one more person say, "Well, in the Bible..." Sorry, I don't worship a book. Or if they say "In Paul, it says..." (First off they are always quoting from bad translations...) but my response always is, "Paul didn't die on the cross for me." I follow Jesus, and he said quite clearly, "Love God above all and love your fellow man as you want to be loved." He also said, "Judge not, or you will be judged." What is so hard to understand, my Christian brothers and sisters? Oh, that's right, you can't be a bigot if you follow that. Damn, I knew there was a reason you ignored it...
Lastly, this is nothing more than a civil rights issue -- about a oppressive majority foisting its will on a minority. It has happened through out time and flagrantly in this country. But we will overcome.
Posted by: Bart | May 28, 2009 12:18:03 PM
This is the EXACT problem we have. Carol is GREAT but come on - we need to get serious and not have a comedian make our case for us on a national tv show. EMBARRASSING. They have a serious pastor on and we put up a comedian? AND AGAIN - no one ever asks WHAT ARE YOU PROTECTING TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE FROM?? The argument that it is to keep kids safe is a bogus one at that. So then what? ALSO why is no one talking about why was the US gov formed in the first place? So the MINORITY can have a voice as well - to have equal rights. Simply because the majority does not approve of gay marriage does not make it right!
Posted by: WIlliam | May 28, 2009 12:22:11 PM
i disagree with the criticism of Carol Leifer, if that's the best the other side has, we're in luck, as Rev Metrosexual did everything except ask for a phone number, her brother's. He looks like a darker shade of Larry Craig to me, but she may need to decide if she's being funny or being gay.
Posted by: cd | May 28, 2009 12:44:53 PM
How horribly embarrassing. She may be a funny comedienne, but she should not have been in the position of debating this dick. Seriously. He pulled every sick and twisted argument out, and all she could do was make weak jokes in response. He should have been roasted for some of the hateful crap he spouted. Larry King did a better job of pushing him than she did. Just awful.
Posted by: Gregus | May 28, 2009 12:55:45 PM
It is FAR FAR FAR FAR past time when we stopped REINFORCING the idea that this is a RELIGIOUS issue by agreeing to debate them.
There are still Holocaust deniers...when's the last time you saw King or Cooper or whomoever give a platform to one of them?
There are still white supremacy groups....when's the last time you saw King or Cooper or whomoever give a platform to one of them?
It will royally piss off the circus masters [aka mainstream media for profit] who want a good "show" --i.e., why wait for a train accident to cover when you can create one?
BUT it will help change the focus more than any of these well-intentioned attempts to beat them with humor or love that only serve as commercials for their hate and lies. If we had 20 more Barney Frank's with the intelligence, wit, and refusal to take bullshit for an answer to be on every show and verbally chop them up maybe these would help a bit but, as we dont't, by agreeing to appear with people attacking us in the name of religion we are saying, "Yes, this IS a religious issue" rather than a CIVIL one.
Until MSM stops coconspiring witht this false construct, gays should go on and the first time they get the mike say:
"This is BIGOTRY not a difference of opinion. YOU are a BIGOT! A poisonous hatemonger wrapped in your arrogant interpretation of the Bible. Marriage equality [ENDA, DADT, etc.] is a CIVIL rights issue and you have no right to try to violate our Constitution by demanding that the Church be able to tell the State what to do."
And simply keep saying that over and over and over. Do NOT answer any questions the now-going-crazy host will try to get you back in the circus ring with, except to say, "That's bigotry." or "That's hate-driven nonsense." Etc.
Do NOT be afraid to "not be nice"! Do NOT get off point. We must STOP helping prop up the narrative frame that this is about who's right about religion rather than CIVIL liberties vs. BIGOTRY. It's America 2009..not Italy and Spain during the Inquisition.
Yes, you won't get asked back...but if every "gay talking head" unites with the same message eventually they will be FORCED to stop making us performing seals in their circus and move on and we will be given the dignity and respect they finally started giving Jews, blacks, and other minorities.
Posted by: Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com | May 28, 2009 12:55:58 PM
not that i think this way at all, but if we used the pastors logic shouldn't his children be druggie murdering convicts because they're black?
Posted by: sean | May 28, 2009 1:19:58 PM