Comments

  1. JFE says

    Andrew Marin is a Christian who has been living in Chicago’s Boys Town for several years. He has reached out to the GLBT community (calling them GLBT, not teh homosexuals) in all forms. He has tried as much as possible to know gay and lesbian people in all forms. The website is http://www.loveisanorientation.com.

    Here’s a dustup he had with LaBarbera:

    http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2008/04/labarberas-shameless-self-promotion-may-damage-a-real-ministry/

    That’s all for now.

  2. Dan says

    I’ve follow his writings for a while since I live here in Chicago. I don’t think he ever answers the question on whether or not “it” is a sin. Partially I think because it would damage his outreach attempts if he does believe that and said it. I think he’s the type to let the “spirit” guide you to that answer through personal journey…but he also seems to apply that to religious wing-nuts too.

  3. Eugene says

    There is nothing “awesome” about it. This group can’t even say that homosexuality isn’t a sin.

    “The Marin Foundation believes that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, God breathed by the Holy Spirit through human authorship (2 Ti 3:16). Our organization does not attempt to rewrite scripture so as to either affirm, or declare judgment on the GLBT community.”

    I guess it’s a new version of “love the sinner hate the sin”.

    Fuck them.

  4. tony x says

    Eugene — living in peace with others does not mean EVERYONE has to believe the same thing.

    They can be sorry for past actions and not being loving enough – and can still believe the message of their religion for THEIR choices and actions.

    If they ever supported keeping gay people second class citizens — then they are are not sorry and are the enemy of equality.

    All they have to support is freedom and choice.

    It seems they may not be there yet.
    But we should not reject progress in it’s baby steps.

  5. JeffRob says

    Frankly, if they’re biblical literalists who think I’m sinning and destined to hell, and they still came out to the Pride parade to apologize to us for their fellow Christians, and partied and showed love to us the whole time, I’m more impressed.

    It’s the attitude that everyone who doesn’t believe exactly what you do is your mortal enemy that’s going to destroy our movement and any hope for lasting peace.

    I marched by these guys and gave them a thumbs up, and one of them smiled and thumbs-upped me back. It was moving.

  6. Eugene says

    @tony x

    “living in peace with others does not mean EVERYONE has to believe the same thing.”

    You’re right. When 50% of your neighbors believe that you shouldn’t “flaunt” your sinful homosexuality, you can live in peace by staying in the closet.

    “They can be sorry for past actions and not being loving enough – and can still believe the message of their religion for THEIR choices and actions.”

    The thing is, religion doesn’t work this way. They certainly don’t think that I have a different God, so they can’t possibly think that only THEIR homosexuality is sinful.

    “If they ever supported keeping gay people second class citizens — then they are are not sorry and are the enemy of equality.”

    What if they genuinely believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman? Don’t they have “freedom and choice” to elect anti-gay politicians? Either way, this Marin guy doesn’t seem to say much about “equality”.

    The only good thing about this group is that they apologize for some actions of OTHER Christians. It’s impressive. But the problem with their strategy of “bridge building” is that it implies moral equivalency between gays and homophobes. It’s as if I’m the bad guy for refusing to tolerate Christian homophobia.

  7. Houndentenor says

    There are Christina groups that actually welcome gays (UCC, for example) and others, like this one, that want to welcome you but also want you to change once you get comfortable in their church. It’s a method of luring gay people in, not truly embracing us. Who needs it.

  8. taodon says

    Houndentenor –

    You are incorrect about the UCC. It varies from church to church. Those who have gone through a process called “Open and Affirming” have made a commitment to invite LGBT persons into their church and simply accept them for who they are.

    You may have just gone to a church who has not gone through the O&A process, and probably wouldn’t.

  9. Dan says

    @ Eugene

    I have to say you’re filling in a lot of blanks about the organization and about Marin himself without taking the time to get to know them or reading about him (or reading his book, “Love Is an Orientation: Elevating the Conversation With the Gay Community”). He’s not exactly going easy on hardline Christians either.

    Now I’m gayer than Gay Gayerson and just about as agnostic as it goes, but it doesn’t get closer to peace by not responding to an olive branch. We’ve got no choice in the end, we have to live together. I for one am tired of the fight.

  10. Z says

    I agree the Marin group appears to be just another version of “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Like all these groups, their “unconditional love” comes with lots of strings attached.

  11. Eugene says

    @Dan

    No, I took the time to take a look at their website and other sources. I don’t like what I have seen.

    “Does (Marin) consider homosexuality a sin? When I ask, Marin writes the question down on a piece of paper and studies it carefully. ‘It’s theologically sloppy to say it’s not a sin,’ he replies.”

    ” He’s not exactly going easy on hardline Christians either.”

    Yep, he’s like a man who hates both Nazis and Jews. It saddens me beyond belief that gay men are so comfortable with anti-gay bigotry.

    “Now I’m gayer than Gay Gayerson and just about as agnostic as it goes, but it doesn’t get closer to peace by not responding to an olive branch. We’ve got no choice in the end, we have to live together. I for one am tired of the fight.”

    But it isn’t an olive branch. Marin implies that it’s OK to believe that homosexuality is a sin. He doesn’t seem to care about gay rights. He doesn’t condemn the “ex-gay” industry. I, for one, need a friend, not a hugger.

    If you’re tired of “the fight”, you can go back into the closet. After all, Marin’s beliefs wouldn’t have changed without the fight.

  12. Bob R says

    Sorry, but I’ve never met a Christian I could trust. It has always been my experience that when dealing with “good Christians” I must guard my wallet and protect my back.

  13. says

    Andrew’s a good guy and is definitely on our side. He traveled to Iowa City and attended my wedding with his wife when my husband and I got legally hitched this past January. The Marin Foundation is a Christian organization, but it’s nothing like the 95% of the Christian groups out there. He’s interested in trying to reduce the culture war static. He’s also interested in making the church more friendly for GLBT folks who are seeking a place there. But, really he’s just trying to get the Christian community to reduce their rhetoric and relax on the gay stuff.

  14. Dan says

    @Eugene

    First of all you misquoted me…

    Secondly, “Yep, he’s like a man who hates both Nazis and Jews. It saddens me beyond belief that gay men are so comfortable with anti-gay bigotry.”

    You’re the one it seems to be bringing hate to the table. In case you missed it, he’s trying to embrace both sides. I’ll admit I don’t understand how he’s able to do it as I’ve taken the liberal slant, but he’s merely asking people on both sides to question their beliefs. I would think if you’re secure in what you hold to be self-evident then you wouldn’t be bothered by it.

    “But it isn’t an olive branch. Marin implies that it’s OK to believe that homosexuality is a sin. He doesn’t seem to care about gay rights. He doesn’t condemn the “ex-gay” industry. I, for one, need a friend, not a hugger.”

    How do you suggest one become a friend without a hug first?

    “If you’re tired of “the fight”, you can go back into the closet. After all, Marin’s beliefs wouldn’t have changed without the fight.”

    I suppose I should have said “fightING”. Constant bickering on both sides has taught me (being 35 years IN the fight) that it gets you nothing but extremism and slows progress. As for going back in the closet I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. I couldn’t be further from it.

  15. Jason says

    I think this is a great beginning. I really do! My question is: “How does being “proud” of who you are have any corelation with prancing around in public in nothing but your underwear?” How could anyone take us seriously and with any validity when this is our representation? I just don’t understand the presentation. I try, but I just don’t get it. I personally want to be recognized as being just like everybody else despite my sexuality.

  16. Eugene says

    @Dan

    “You’re the one it seems to be bringing hate to the table. In case you missed it, he’s trying to embrace both sides.”

    OK, he’s like a man who’s trying to EMBRACE both Nazis and Jews, thinking that it would be “theologically sloppy” to say that Jews aren’t an inferior race. From my perspective, it doesn’t really change a thing. But, yes, let’s ignore Christian homophobia and pretend that I’m the one who’s “bringing hate to the table”.

    “I would think if you’re secure in what you hold to be self-evident then you wouldn’t be bothered by it.”

    How can I feel secure when I don’t even have legal equality? The thing is, we all live in the society, and my security and well-being strongly depend on other people’s beliefs, so it’s a little ridiculous for Marin to pretend that it doesn’t matter if homosexuality is a sin.

    “How do you suggest one become a friend without a hug first?”

    The point is that a hug is not enough.

    “Constant bickering on both sides has taught me (being 35 years IN the fight) that it gets you nothing but extremism and slows progress.”

    Is it really “bickering” and “extremism” to say that homosexuality is a healthy variation of human sexuality and not a sin?

    “As for going back in the closet I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. I couldn’t be further from it.”

    If all gay people go back in the closet or become “ex-gay”, there will be no “bickering” anymore. But that’s not what we want, do we?

  17. says

    Mr. Marin is doing a good work. Many in the GLBT community, and in the religious community (and those simultaneously in both) are guilty of reductionism.
    People, and, to be sure, sexuality, are far to intricate for that.
    It’s not because he’s wishy-washy or non-committed, that Andrew isn’t answering the question with a “yes” or “no” A yes or no answer will inevitably alienate one group or the other. That very act will negate any bridge building. To “elevate” the conversation, as both he and Brian McLaren are trying to do, is to leave the “list of sins” theology behind. He’s not trying to “change” gays or the religious folks. He recognizes that we all, gay, straight, or somewhere in-between, need change. The kind of change, and what direction that change takes, is between the individual and God.
    Therefore, the elevated conversation is about relationship with God, and with each other, and about leaving the whole “sin” issue in God’s capable hands. He’s not so much avoiding the question, as he’s saying that’s it’s not our question to ask. We just need to love each other, and encourage each other towards growth in Christ. God can take care of what, if anything, needs taken care of.
    I’m sure someone will still want to argue, but that’s my take on it.

  18. TANK says

    It seems to me that gays and lesbians who are okay with and supportive of a so-called religious ally who believes that homosexuality is a sin themselves believe that gay civil equality is negotiable. The melissa etheridge types… They believe that those opposed to our legal and civic enfranchisement represent a “legitimate” perspective that is entitled to respect and acknowledgement. Unfortunately, our “community” is rife with such apologists and passive useful idiots, and they inhibit effective activism and outreach, because anyone who is willing to subscribe to that notion of placation and tolerance of intolerance is not going achieve anything of any substance for this movement in the u.s.

  19. AdamN says

    “Therefore, the elevated conversation is about relationship with God, and with each other, and about leaving the whole “sin” issue in God’s capable hands. He’s not so much avoiding the question, as he’s saying that’s it’s not our question to ask. ”
    Uh yeah, this is total non committal BS from Christian Fundies pretending to be our allies so they can get our money. Even in the best case scenario, I can’t help but think these losers think that once homos find their way to their god they will suddenly not want to be homos anymore and see that our “lifestyle” is a sin. Fuck that! I’ll take the Flying Spaghetti Monster instead.

  20. says

    The thing is, I don’t get that Andrew opposes gay civil equality. He’s supportive of our marriages and our families and he opposes abuse towards our community. What more do you want from the guy?

  21. slater says

    to ADAMN – why so hostile? i’m a straight christian, a fan of Marin’s work, and i’ve never once expected or asked anyone from the LGBT community to “change” if they become a christian. a whole lot of my gay friends actually already *do* identify as christians – i’m not going around telling them they’re not fully christian or have more work to do – and neither is Marin. the whole idea behind all of this is that, from a christian perspective of trying to reconcile certain interpretations of scripture with our experience of the world and love for other people, we are faced with the fact that we just don’t have all the answers. and in response to our not knowing, we affirm and encourage others to grow in Christ in healthy ways, without swearing off LGBT as a way to do that the way many christians do.

    also…i’m not trying to get anyone’s money, most christians interested in gay rights and reconciliation aren’t, and if you know anything about “Christian Fundies” you’ve got to see the idiocy of putting Andrew Marin on the same level as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

    i strongly recommend looking up Justin Lee and the Gay Christian Network for more insight into how gay people can actively pursue a christian lifestyle without denying their identity, “changing,” or vowing celibacy.

    or go to loveisanorientation.com for marin’s blog where i think you’ll see he’s not trying to trick anyone

  22. Eugene says

    @David Foreman

    “It’s not because he’s wishy-washy or non-committed, that Andrew isn’t answering the question with a “yes” or “no” A yes or no answer will inevitably alienate one group or the other.”

    And yet he doesn’t have a problem with saying that “the Marin Foundation believes that the Bible is the inerrant word of God…”. He clearly doesn’t have a problem with alienating atheists. It’s easy to see that the Marin Foundation is a pro-Christian group, not a pro-gay group.

    And that’s the problem with many pro-gay Christians: they’re more pro-Christian than pro-gay.

  23. JFE says

    @Adamn

    I don’t think Marin is after gay money. I, as a gay person and as a Christian, would not support him financially because of his beliefs that homosexuality is a sin. Frankly, his position just shows how far many Christians’ perspective are from many gays’ perspective. Not to mention, the large majority of gays could care less about Marin’s position. But their ability to hug Tristan (in the photo) shows more about how far Christians have come rather than how much gays are giving in to “loving” anti-gay groups.

  24. TANK says

    Let’s take that into consideration. Let’s say that he believes, because of his faith, that homosexuality is a sin but distinguishes that from lgbt civil equality, and thinks that gays should have civil equality. When he approaches his like minded evangelical fundies with his message, he affirms for them that being gay is a sin, and is proclaimed as such by their god. Given that most metrics deem bad things worthy of elimination, he’s not going to be persuading them to vote otherwise, or do anything other than they’re doing. So, as far as its effectiveness, it is null and void, and has the same effect as if he were to both condemn homosexuality (for that’s what he’s doing), and oppose civil equality. He’s not denying them the origin of their antigay belief, so on what ground can he deny its consequence given that it’s strictly a religious opinion? None. The goodness of a person is measured in effects, not intentions.

    Nothing changes by working from within an bigoted institution. It can’t, for you can’t use the same beliefs and mechanisms that oppress to uplift.

    So what more do I want? How about an actual commitment to lgbt liberty? Not some half hearted middleground…because in politics, nuance don’t work.

    Religious moderates do nothing to effect sufficient change on any substantive issue. They’re just as culpable in their silence (the usual case) or minor “protest” as the more extreme elements of their faith (who outnumber them as a matter of statistical fact in the u.s.) for the oppression that they enact. Further, most religious “moderates” are always first in line to defend their faith from criticism rather than criticize the toxic elements played up by the extremists that they desperately try to distance themselves from with impotent rhetoric.

  25. Nalaih says

    I am still forming my opinion on all of this, but to be fair to Marin the article which you linked to from Signorlie has been retracted by the Advocate for having so many discrepancies and misrepresentations of Marin and many of those interviewed. In fact if you try to search the Advocate site you will not find this story and that is why this link takes you to a “free library” site.

    My opinion thus far is that I have seen what the Marin Foundation is doing within the faith community in Chicago and I for one appreciate the steps forward. I want to be able to discover my faith on my own journey and Marin and his foundation allow space for me to do that.

  26. TANK says

    And the appeal to ignorance evidenced by many posters and marin himself is very telling. If you don’t know the answer as to whether or not homosexuality is bad or neutral, then you aren’t THINKING. Appeal to ignorance in human rights and dignity is to cede the point entirely to those who oppose both. It isn’t up for grabs, and it isn’t an issue on which people can remain neutral…there is no tenable excuse to be “confused” or “agnostic” on such issues, and represents a moral failing of one of the highest orders.

  27. TANK says

    but it does prove the quote that without religion, bad people would do bad things, and good people would do good things–only with religion do good people do bad things (and you can include culture in general).

  28. Eugene says

    @Jon Trouten

    “The thing is, I don’t get that Andrew opposes gay civil equality. He’s supportive of our marriages and our families and he opposes abuse towards our community.
    What more do you want from the guy?”

    I’m afraid I haven’t found ANYTHING about civil equality on the Marin Foundation website. Apparently, it doesn’t matter because it’s an “earthly” thing:

    “Too often people look for validation in the wrong places; earthly places. Whether that validation comes from us, your church, your family or your friends – it all will not matter as the only True validation comes from our Father; and should be sought after as such.”

    Now, let’s see what Marin does. He aggressively promotes Christianity, but fails to condemn its anti-gay aspects. Needless to say, it’s a net negative for us. Yes, he’s better than many other Christians, but it doesn’t mean that he’s doing a good thing.

  29. AdamN says

    @Slater
    “to ADAMN – why so hostile?”
    I don’t trust wish washy “allies” who comfort my mortal enemies. Also as a non-Christian atheist, I don’t really care about being closer to someone’s make believe playtime…but that’s just me!
    @JFE
    “But their ability to hug Tristan (in the photo) shows more about how far Christians have come rather than how much gays are giving in to “loving” anti-gay groups.”
    Why the fuck would or should we want to “give in” to loving anti-gay groups???? Are you insane? These people HATE us. They want to deny us equal rights and in, some places of the world, want to KILL us. So FUCK THEM. I didn’t grow up Christian (I’m ethnically Jewish but agnostic) so I am naturally absolutely and totally culturally skeptical of Christian love and forgiveness…cuz you know it worked out so well for both the Jews and the fags all these centuries.
    @ Tank
    Totally agree!

  30. says

    Eugene: All I can do is suggest you check out his blog (loveisanorientation.com) and see what he writes about marriage equality, gay parenting, the Uganda bill, hate crimes bills, DADT, etc. Or listen to the gayagenda radio interview with James Hipp (mentioned above).

    Beyond that, you can take or reject Marin’s Pride message. His crew had “I’m Sorry” signs for sins that the church has committed against GLBT people, which was a very different message from many of the other Christian folks with signs at Chicago Pride. I know the ones here in Iowa City had a message of “Got AIDS Yet?”.

  31. mike says

    wow that’s really refreshing. kindness can go a long way. I don’t care what they believe as long as they havn’t used it to upset me or engage in ignorance about who I am and what made me who I am. Nice

  32. Eugene says

    @Jon Trouten

    “All I can do is suggest you check out his blog (loveisanorientation.com) and see what he writes about marriage equality, gay parenting, the Uganda bill, hate crimes bills, DADT, etc.”

    You see, I’m reading his blog now, and he appears to be a nice guy, but, for example, he doesn’t appear to be supporting civil marriage equality. It isn’t there (e.g. his Prop 8 post). More importantly, the problem is that he ignores the CAUSES of anti-gay bigotry, making his writings rather pointless.

    “His crew had “I’m Sorry” signs for sins that the church has committed against GLBT people, which was a very different message from many of the other Christian folks with signs at Chicago Pride.”

    In other words, he’s better than some Christians, but worse than most atheists.

  33. Eugene says

    @Jon Trouten

    “I read his posts tagged “gay marriage” and find posts supporting marriage equality.”

    That’s what I had already done when I wrote my previous post. Yes, he says, “I think that all couples (gay/straight) should have to go to a courthouse to be legally married”. But he’s doing NOTHING to make it happen. He can’t even ask Christians to support civil marriage equality. He even says that the fact that he attended your wedding DOESN’T say anything about his beliefs! I mean, someone could have thought that he’s pro-gay – and what could be worse?

  34. AdamN says

    OK so I have gone to this guy’s site, read some posts and watched his videos about Gay Pride. This guy is NOT on our side. Seriously you people are deluding yourself if you think so. He deliberately is obscuring his agenda in regards to the gay community and promoting a different approach for conservative Christians to “reach out” to us and “help” us come to Christ.
    The biggest thing for me is that at the end of the day, this guy and his organization don’t actually stand for anything for the gay community as opposed to actively standing for a way for Christians to “approach” (cough CONVERT cough) us. Saying you are for “love” is not just enough in this case, he has to take a pro-gay stance otherwise it’s just empty words. All these anti-gay Christians “love” us, even the Nigerian ones that kill some of us to set an example. I have absolutely zero tolerance for that kind of “love”. You either accept us as full, natural, human beings deserving of absolute and complete equality and not living in sin based upon on our identity or you are not our ally. Anyone that can’t answer a simple a question about whether we should “change” our orientation is not our friend. Futhermore, anyone who goes to pains to defend and “build a bridge” with people that hate us and want to oppress us is NOT our ally in any way shape or form. We don’t need to comprise for these freakshows, they need to comprise for us. I, for one, seriously believe the world is changing and anti gay religious institutions will go the way of the dinosaurs unless they get over their bigotry. I trust that these religious groups have far more interest in their self preservation (certainly more then “love” and “god”) to actually let that happen.

  35. Steve says

    Oh for… People, get it through your skulls. Not everyone has to believe like you. We have the freedom to believe what we want in the US, be it an all knowing being passing judgments on us from on high and those judgments being tempered by the love of his son, a universal consciousness that connects us all together and of which we are all a part, the harmony and majesty of nature itself, or nothing at all.

    This is a GOOD thing. Who cares what’s in their hearts. They aren’t treating us like shit in public and they are apologizing publicly for what they may have done in the past. They are FOLLOWING their religion and withholding public judgment and leaving it up to their God. So what if they won’t publicly say we aren’t sinners? I don’t care. They are making moves to be publicly civil to us instead of openly hostile. Live and let live. We stay vigilant, keep them at arms length, but take the same view. Live and let live.

    All you people here are doing is proving that the radicals are right and our community is the scum of the earth. With a few, more humane posters as the exceptions. Practice what you preach people. Tolerance and acceptance of others begins at home.

  36. Parsons says

    I took the time to read “Love is an Orientation” a few months ago and found the book to be an interesting read. In it he discusses the challenges he has had in overcoming the viewpoints he was taught.

    He isnt a ‘perfect’ man and he would be the first to admit that. What he is however is a man who is willing to sit down and have the conversation . . . a guy who is willing to listen . . . to talk . . . and to learn.

    There were times in his book that i shook my head in disagreement with what he had to say, but for the most part he does ‘get it’. He is on his own journey and by doing what he is doing is challenging those people who view us gays as complete abominations.

    Give the guy a break. He is doing good work.

  37. TANK says

    “All you people here are doing is proving that the radicals are right and our community is the scum of the earth.”

    Let’s hope you’re just another crazed fundotard and not a homosexual. Because you aren’t gay…that’s for sure, faggot. Embarrassing idiot. It’s just too bad that there are so many idiots like you.

  38. TANK says

    Parsons, steve, and the rest of the effete apologists and religious loons…gay equality is negotiable for these douchenozzles…IGNORE the fucktards.

  39. TANK says

    but, of course…that gay equality is negotiable and not as important as “churchin’ up” for church fags is why they’re church “faggots”…

  40. AdamN says

    Never said that I wanted everyone to think alike just that this guy and his organization really aren’t an ally. You are right that its free country. We all have the right to express our views and opinions, including those of us who don’t trust this guy. Honestly I’d rather them be hateful to my face then behind my back coating in words of “love”. At least you know who you are really dealing with that way.
    If being critical of this guy, suspect of his agenda and his relationship to our community is radical, then I’ll wear it proudly.

  41. Eugene says

    @Steve

    “Oh for… People, get it through your skulls. Not everyone has to believe like you.”

    What’s telling is that no one says this about racism. But, apparently, homophobia is A-OK. Yes, not everyone has to believe like you. But it’s equally true that not everyone has to “accept” or ignore what bigots believe in.

    “So what if they won’t publicly say we aren’t sinners? I don’t care.”

    I do. They actively promote an anti-gay religion, without even trying to neutralize its anti-gay elements. They say it’s bad for “bridge building”.

    The thing is, we don’t need bridge builders when our fortress is under attack. More importantly, gay people aren’t aliens. They are born and raised in straight homes. That’s why homophobia isn’t caused by the lack of bridges. It’s caused by anti-gay preaching. All this “bridge building” talk is rather obfuscatory – especially when some churches are more gay-affirming than the Marin Foundation.

  42. Timothy Kincaid says

    Guess what, guys.

    It doesn’t matter if Andrew believes that homosexuality is a sin or not. What matters is what he does about it. Or doesn’t do.

    He doesn’t campaign for anti-gay laws. He doesn’t condemn folks. He doesn’t stay away from Teh Gey. He doesn’t look down on you.

    And here’s what he does do: he tells other churches to knock off the homophobia.

    If you are looking for the world to agree with everything you believe – especially everything about religion – you’re going to be waiting a while. And if you’re going to insist that others MUST agree with you, then you are no better that the churches who do exactly that.

    I’d rather have a decent guy who wants to treat me fairly than someone who agrees with me but is a huge jerk.

    And as for the angry folk… do you even know what “a sin” is? Do you care? Do you know what Andrew thinks “a sin” is or what that means?

    You’ve just decided that here is someone convenient to hate so you’re going to hate him.

  43. Leonard says

    “If you are looking for the world to agree with everything you believe – especially everything about religion – you’re going to be waiting a while. And if you’re going to insist that others MUST agree with you, then you are no better that the churches who do exactly that.”

    I demand that people not think I am disgusting because of the color of my skin.

    I insist that people not think I am a sinner because of the color of my skin.

    I hope that people will not think I am uneducated, ignorant, a thief, or criminal, because of the color of my skin.

    But it’s okay for people to think the above about me because of my orientation?

    I have no problem demanding that people think I am no better or worse than they are because of my orientation. There is NO middle-ground!

    You’re free to believe what you want about me, and I’m free to call you a friend or foe because of it.

  44. jon says

    Sure, Andrew is a great guy, nice, former ‘bible bangin’ homophobe’ (catchy huh?)

    Please just read this ONE quote, it should tell you everything you need to know. It’s from him speaking in a seminar to church leaders who work with kids.

    ‘We have a window here, of 13,14,15 years old. And that window gives us the realization of attraction of the same sex, and there’s a quick two years before they totally come out and say ‘hey, I’m GLBT’. And we all know when someone comes out and declares their orientation they tell everybody, family, friends. And what happens is that then their identity becomes wrapped up in being gay.

    How much more difficult is it for someone who identity is already wrapped up in being gay? Than it is for someone who might have a SSA and their identity is not wrapped up in being gay. There is a huge, huge period with those two and half, three years.

    And what we have to do is to start deconstructing the integration.

    Because once everything is integrated, and I’ll touch on this construct in a couple minutes here. Once everything is integrated, it is going to be…rough. It’s going to be rough for us, it’s going to rough for them, it’s going to be rough for parents, families, and everybody.

    So, if we can hold off the integration part the better off we are going to be with all this. So, just understand, once again, 13,14, and 15 years old.

    +++++++++++++++
    And believe me, he doesn’t sound like an ally in the audio. He’s preachy, he sounds appalled by the fact that a teenager might be gay. At the end of the day, Andrew believes it’s “Holy Spirit’s job to convict, God’s job to love, my job to love”. [Marin]

    It won’t surprise me if he comes on here and says “you don’t know me, blah, blah, blah”. He’s very quick to defend himself.

    Watch for this as a trend. It’s the new kinder, gentler, ‘evangelical’ response to the gays.

    Sure, hugs are good. So is free pizza. You decide.

  45. TreeHugger03 says

    How many of you have actually read Andrew Marin’s “Love is an Orientation”? I’m looking for hands, here. Anyone?

    As a gay 25-year-old Christian, I must say that no other book has inspired me more to embrace my entire self. It is a powerful text about unconditional love and asking open-ended questions. To Marin, sex is not a standard by which to judge a life. Rather, he celebrates “God’s acceptance, validation, affirmation, and unconditional love in meeting people as they are, where they are.”

    Remember that Andrew Marin is dealing with matters of faith and religion — not politics. So when you cast him aside for not being a vocal Christian advocate for gay marriage, remember that he’s trying to bridge the conversational gap between Christians and many in the LGBT community. One can’t be a bridge and stand on one (political) side, and his mission is to pose more questions than to give answers. The more that Christians are brought to individually question their assumptions about gays and lesbians, the more they are moved — internally — to change their thinking. One cannot achieve this by telling them what to believe.

    To those of you who think his book might take a “love the sinner, hate the sin” mentality, get ready to be blown away.

  46. TampaZeke says

    All I need to know is that he praised PETER LABARBARA as “courageously taking a bullet for us (Christians) all”.

    He often criticizes Labarbara’s “tactics” and “methods” but not his mission or his goals.

  47. Katie O says

    I have been following this story on numerous sites and have read countless comments, replies and incensed reactions. I am not a member of the gay community and though I call myself a christian, I don’t know that many other Christians would label me as such because I don’t believe the exact things they do. I believe that love is love and that everyone deserves equality and respect. If we are judged at all it is through the goodness in our actions and our intentions toward others. Simple as that.

    Having said that, it makes me incredibly sad reading through so many hate filled messages in response to Andy Marin’s “I’m Sorry” movement. From what I have seen in response to his efforts, the road of hatred and intolerance is VERY much a two way street – there are as many people in the gay community casting a blanket of distaste and mistrust over the entire Christian community as “The Church” casts a blanket of misunderstanding and phobia on the GLBT community. Is the angry response from those who have been persecuted justified? I have never been judged by my sexuality and would be furious if anyone made me feel “LESS THAN” as so many others have. But one, or even many, Christians do not equal ALL Christianity. Hating Christians is no better than hating homosexuality. SHOULDN’T there be a bridge built between the two? SHOULDN’T there be someone out there who wants to cut through all the pain and misunderstanding and create a path to the Church for those who really WANT it?

    Again, I am not in a position to judge anyone’s level of anger. But I do know Andy Marin as my dear friend…from before The Marin Foundation ever existed. I KNOW who he is and he is not the enemy. If you don’t trust what his website says then talk to HIM personally, he’ll respond and answer your questions. I may not be a member of the GLBT community but HE has become one, walking the streets of Chicago’s Boys Town and showing those he comes across that he genuinely cares about them AS PEOPLE – not as statistics or dollar signs or someone to change. He is kind and loving and wants to change the way things are between the church and those who have been injured by the wrong path the Church has taken.

    I don’t agree with a lot of things about organized religion. I don’t even go to CHURCH…but I do know that there are some of us out here who believe in God and equality and equal rights and that love is love no matter where it comes from. I may believe in universal respect but I do NOTHING to spread the word other than pass on my beliefs of equality to my daughter. I have all the respect in the world for those of you, and people like Andy Marin, who get up off the couch and at least TRY to make a difference.

    Put the mistrust aside. Stop judging when you know how much it hurts to be judged. Be angry but at least be open to hearing what Andy has to say…not the people who have interviewed him, not the people who have written about him – just HIM. He’ll stop, he’ll listen and he’ll be honest with you about his beliefs and his desire to make things better for those who desire to be a part of the church. Just give him a chance.

  48. TANK says

    I think we’re getting a lot of christianist message managers here who want to white wash marin’s clear homophobia, and the fact that he is not an ally of the lgbt community. Not now and not ever. Don’t be deceived by this liars and their agenda of misinformation.

  49. TANK says

    I’m more convinced than ever that the softer religious rhetoric of homophobia and intolerance is the new tactic to recruit and “cure” through faith healing homosexuality. These people are the borg: one mind, one mission, no understanding.

  50. craig says

    There are an enormous number of Christian churches with the same messages. The Episcopal church that I belong to is one of them. Just Google “gay friendly church” and your state and find the ones closest to you.

    My particular congregation has had gay clergy, gay lay leaders, etc., for a couple of decades, and we’re about 30% gay congregation with 50% gay financing and participation in management.

    There are many, many others out there. The nut on the street corner with a bull horn at Pride is NOT even a majority of Christianity (or Judaism or Buddhists, or … )

    Remember, Jesus said not one recorded word on homosexuality, and the only time he DID meet a real live homosexual in the Bible, it was the story of the Centurian, and he was praised for having faith beyond anything Jesus had seen in Israel.

    Not exactly a rebuke.

  51. Eugene says

    @Katie O

    ” If you don’t trust what his website says then talk to HIM personally, he’ll respond and answer your questions.”

    I want to know if he believes that homosexuality is a sin. He WON’T answer this question. So how can I trust him?

  52. Bradley says

    @Nalaih |- Then why does EVERY link to archived Advocate articles have an error? Does that mean everything ever written in that magazine has been retracted?

    Please provide proof of your statement “to be fair to Marin the article which you linked to from Signorlie has been retracted by the Advocate for having so many discrepancies and misrepresentations of Marin and many of those interviewed.”

    Thanks in advance and remember the ninth commandment!

  53. AdamN says

    What Jon posted above about Marin’s speech about gay teenagers is esp. damning. This guy is not our friend but is in fact our total enemy. Sorry, once you start screwing around with vulnerable LGBT youth and their self perception and identity, you are working AGAINST us.
    @KatieO
    Uh…Sorry to disappoint you with our angry words of hate. I get that your straight and possibly totally naive about the subject, but Evangelical Christians in this country have done absolutely horrible things to gay people and are currently waging a WAR against us. They treat us like we are less then human, lie about our lives, try to convert us and fight us in our attempts to gain equality under the law. So are we angry? HELL YES!
    Does this mean that all Christians are anti-gay? Of course not. No-one said that. You might wanna get off the cross here because there are actual real minorities in this country who are legal oppressed whereas Christians are doing just fine.
    Once again, your friend is no friend of the gay community despite his words of “love” or whatever non-committal bs he is saying. If he can’t make simple statements about gay people not being sinners, or denying that we need to “change”, if he defends EVIL people like PETER LABARBARA, if he talks about “getting” to LGBT youth before they come out then he is most definitely our enemy.

  54. TANK says

    You realize that these people “defending” this douchenozzle are probably Marin himself…and the ones that aren’t are church fags (lost to the meme). Marin was exposed yesterday on a blogpost as an antigay evangelical fraud by savage and signorile. The guy apparently says very antigay things to evangelical crowds, and tells gay people what they want to hear…with the exception of saying that homosexuality isn’t a sin, because this shady religious huckster believes it is (or believes whatever will get him more donations)–but is willing to say anything, and do anything for money.

  55. AdamN says

    @Tank
    Yeah, you are probably totally right about the people defending him here. They have the self righteousness (you guys are being mean and angry homosexuals!!) and persecution complexes typical of your fundie Christians.
    I hope Andy does another post about Marin and his gang being total frauds.

  56. Eugene says

    @AdamN

    “What Jon posted above about Marin’s speech about gay teenagers is esp. damning. This guy is not our friend but is in fact our total enemy. Sorry, once you start screwing around with vulnerable LGBT youth and their self perception and identity, you are working AGAINST us.”

    From the Marin Foundation website:

    “Growing up, self-discovery is the most difficult part in learning how to live a fully acculturated and satisfied life. The Marin Foundation is here to confidentially walk with the youth through a process of growth, understanding, and discovery so as to help shape a healthy identity wrapped in Christ, not an identity and worth system based only in ones sexuality.” (http://www.themarinfoundation.org/classes.htm)

    Apparently, as a gay atheist I have an identity and worth system based ONLY in my “sexuality”. Doesn’t it remind you of ex-gay bullshit?

  57. AdamN says

    @Eugene
    Yeah, it does. Somehow I am sure an identity “wrapped in Christ” is really equal to identity where gays become “closeted for Christ” or self-hating sinners. Once you bring kids into it it is equal to child abuse, no ifs, ands or buts about it. We know what horrible things fundies have tried to do to gay kids in this country, this guy just looks like more of the same. He needs to be called out on it.

  58. Eugene says

    Actually, I don’t think he’s “more of the same”. He’s a nice guy. But he’s straight and Christian, so he doesn’t feel our pain. He doesn’t understand how insensitive he can be. (e.g. http://www.loveisanorientation.com/2010/are-gay-equality-rigths-orgs-really-fighting-for-equality/)

    That’s exactly why he is dangerous – he is perfectly capable of “building bridges” at the expense of the gay community, while thinking that he’s a very pro-gay person. What’s worse is that many Christians – gay and straight – will support him just because he “loves” gay people. It’s especially ridiculous that pretends to disregard “political” aspects of gay equality when his own behavior is very Machiavellian. For example he managed to say, “I believe LGBT people should be allowed to openly serve in the military” and even “I’m in favor of LGBT adoption”, but he dodged the question about gay marriage.

  59. AdamN says

    Thanks for that Jon.
    Listening to the longer audio orientation makes it all too clear: This guy is not our ally and is in fact dangerous for gay kids. He talks a lot about luring gay kids into the church and out of the self acceptance of the gay community. He pretty much says at one point he wants us to be celibate outside of marriage and then says he doesn’t believe we should get married. He has an anti-gay agenda no matter what he otherwise may claim.
    Eugene is right, he isn’t more of the same as the audio makes clear. I don’t think he’s a nice guy though. He’s much more of a wolf in sheeps clothing then other fundies.

  60. Eugene says

    @Jon

    Thanks, Jon. What’s especially troubling is Marin’s answer to the question about a 15-year old who’s gay and Christian (around 85:00). Apparently, it’s not the best case scenario for Marin. He says, “there’s hope for the kid” because he won’t be able to get married and have kids at 35.

  61. says

    I don’t expect those who journey with me in faith to hold all the same beliefs that I hold. I do expect to be respected and give that respect in turn for conscientiously arrived at beliefs.

    In the context of the current culture wars engaged with vigor on the Christian Right, Marin and his fellows are distinctive in that they are offering at least respect and apologies for the egregious behavior of the church. They are acknowledging it. To finesse whether they think same-sex erotic behavior is sinful or not is a demonstration of respect. To demand that they come over to “our side” or they can’t be extended respect for their views is simply doing the same behavior our community has bitched at the church about for so long.

    I think many are stretching to make these folks out to have a hidden agenda or be the bad guys.

  62. Eugene says

    @Mark

    “To demand that they come over to “our side” or they can’t be extended respect for their views is simply doing the same behavior our community has bitched at the church about for so long.”

    I’m afraid you merely demonstrate that many gay people who “journey in faith” can’t be trusted. You don’t see the difference between homophobia and refusal to respect homophobia.

  63. jon says

    Another AUDIO file from a seminar called “Building Bridges With the LGBT Community”

    http://www.4shared.com/audio/QsYBg058/Building_Bridges_with_LGBT.html

    Surely he says one thing to the evangelical audience and something different to the gay audience, right? B/c why would a gay audience respond positively to this?

    He has a lot of access and influence on adults who work with kids in evangelical churches (about 20,000). I’m worried about what some gay kid is going to do to him/her self after getting the ‘bait and switch’.

  64. Eugene says

    @Jon

    I guess it also explains why they don’t say much about their beliefs on their website (e.g. “Please feel free to contact us directly for more information on these responses”).

  65. SeriouslySick says

    The whole project of religion concerns itself with taming straight men. It constructs and lionizes the heterosexual man by forcing him into a position of conformity while providing a reward that guarantees his privileged status, within limits.

    If you are NOT a heterosexual man, you are to be demonized at worst, and marginalized at best. Why play into the primitive game of it at all? I like the Devil’s position better, Total absence in my life of any smidge of “God’s Love”. Myths are for instruction, while beliefs are your own. Gays would do well to know this, assimilating with these churches is bad news for an eternity. Is that really what you want for yourself and the rest of us?

  66. TANK says

    Wow, I started this wrong. This guy’s a real creep, and evil christianist bastard. The low. I hope Andy does a follow up and exposes him as an opportunistic snakeoil salesman like signorile and savage have. He’s a tumor who’s actively preying upon children. As if lgbt kids weren’t vulnerable enough…just more of the same…more evil sick shit. I have nothing but the wrecking ball for his type.

    this is the new face of “compassionate” christian fundamentalism…infecting children with, “it’s okay–now change!” A lot of his “flock” are here, too…propagandists. And this is quite the photo op to push their propaganda, too.

    On a separate track, I wish hitch recovery…but it’s esophogeal cancer…hope his family is making the most of the time they have left together. And damn those religionist nuts poking fun of his condition with “prayer” and, “some people need these trials to find jeebus,” palaver. Damn them all to hell.

  67. Eugene says

    @TANK

    “I hope Andy does a follow up and exposes him as an opportunistic snakeoil salesman like signorile and savage have.”

    Is Andy aware of the recordings?

  68. TANK says

    Hope sullivan’s aids doesn’t kick into high gear and kill him. We can hope, can’t we? LOL! It’s all good fun, isn’t it, Andrew? though I suppose he’d get a little frisson of delight out of outlasting hitchens, having aids. Scum.

  69. AdamN says

    @Tank
    Yeah, bringing kids into it sets me off as well. We all know how hard it can be to grow up gay and many of us know people who are permanently screwed up because of organized religion. Its fucking child abuse and this guy is a monster, whether he knows it or not.
    Has anyone emailed Andy to do a followup with Jon’s audio links? I know he is away on vacation but these creeps need to be exposed.

  70. Eugene says

    @AdamN

    “Has anyone emailed Andy to do a followup with Jon’s audio links?”

    I have used the “Contact Towleroad” form. Is it good enough?

    I have also emailed Michelangelo Signorile, and he told me that he “will definitely be doing something with this”.

  71. Jon says

    I’m coming late to this discussion, but it’s totally irrelevant whether someone thinks my having sex with other men is a sin. I only care how they treat me and whether they support legal equality. There are people who believe eating pork is a sin, but it only matters to me if they try to outlaw bacon. And there are people who believe divorce is a sin, but it only matters to me if they try to outlaw divorce or pass laws treating the divorced differently.

    Marin seems concerned with how he is living his life, not with how I’m living mine, which is a truly Christian approach. And he seems sincere in his desire to make up for some of the harm done by other so-called “Christians.” And that is laudable.

  72. TANK says

    You don’t get it, “other” jon. you’re probably just another plant from his “congregation,” too. If you think you can distinguish between people who truly believe that you’re evil and those who are opposed to your civil equality, you’re living a bubble of self-delusion. If most americans believed that eating pork was a sin, and it came to a referendum…no mo pok, spanky. This piece of shit doesn’t believe in your civil equality (rather, he’ll believe whatever you want him to if you donate) , and believes that you’re a sinner to boot (it’s on the record). He wants to recruit lgbt children into the CULT of christian reorientation therapy. if you can pronounce that laudable…then you’re an enemy of lgbt civil equality, too…and a degenerate. This is no longer up for debate: those who side with him and his efforts are actively working against the lgbt community. It’s literally as simple as that.

    It’s gonna take a lot more than a photo op at a pride parade where some e’ed out, inked participant in underwear is getting a hug from radical antigay evangelicals (who he doesn’t even know) who’ve repackaged the same old message of hate in the pursuit of MONEY. You’re either a damn fool or you’ve got an agenda just as unacceptable to lgbt equality as marin’s evangelical “soft hate”.

  73. Lizzie says

    This punched my soul. I wish all Christians had the ability to humble themselves to this extreme. Think of how much more of Christ’s love we could spread if our hatred for people wasn’t so strong. God clearly says that all sin is equal. Being homosexual is equal to lying, lusting, selfishness, pride, etc. Things we all automatically do because we are human. God’s grace is plenty to cover homosexuality. There shouldn’t be a gap between us caused by belief. We are commanded to love one another. I’m not trying to justify homosexuality, because it’s clearly wrong. But I despise the sin. Not the sinner. I love the sinner because Christ loves me.

    I suppose I’m trying to say that I’m sorry as well. The way we judge one another is not Godly, even though we usually have the right intentions. But hatred has never lead anyone to the path of righteousness. You can’t hate someone to heaven. Think about it.

  74. Eugene says

    @Lizzie

    “There shouldn’t be a gap between us caused by belief.”

    If you believe that homosexuality is equal to lying, there WILL be a gap between us caused by belief. If I said that Christianity is equal to child molestation, would you call me a loving, humble person?

    “But I despise the sin. Not the sinner.”

    It’s like saying, “I despise a black man’s skin. Not the man”. The belief that homosexuality is a sin is inherently hateful. I’m sorry, Lizzie, but your sorrow is worthless.

  75. AdamN says

    @Eugene
    Thanks for contacting Andy and Signorile. Your comments here at the Love is An Orientation site have been both very thoughtful and excellent. Thank you!
    I’m afraid I have a bit harder time not coming across as aggressive in my comments. Like Tank, the thought of Marin’s affect on LGBT youth makes me so mad I just have a hard time communicating in a more moderate fashion…oh well.

  76. AdamN says

    “I’m not trying to justify homosexuality, because it’s clearly wrong”
    Huh. How’s that? Because a bunch of ancient desert looney toon men made up some fairy tale stories that were later transcribed into poorly translated books followed blindly by masses of sheeple?
    That’s really interesting Lizzie, cuz from my perspective your Klans style bigotry is CLEARLY WRONG. Dress it up in “love the sinner, hate the sin” BS all you want, all of us here see you for what you really are: a judgmental, scared, TOTALLY ignorant bigot.

  77. Eugene says

    @AdamN

    The thing is, I believe you demonize Marin too much. Gay kids he’s talking about live in anti-gay communities, and you can’t expect their parents and everyone else to make a U-turn on this issue. Without a doubt, coming out as gay will be very traumatic for everyone involved, so there is an element of genuine care in Marin’s stance.

    What’s problematic is that:

    a) as a straight man, he’s unaware of the hidden costs of the closet;
    b) he doesn’t condemn the “ex-gay” route;
    c) he demonstrates no intention of changing anti-gay Christianity.

    But even all of the above doesn’t necessarily mean that his solution will be worse for the gay kids than the realistic alternative.

  78. AdamN says

    @Eugene
    We are going to have to disagree there. I’ve known way to many gay men who’ve been damaged by this kind of nonsense, resulting in drug abuse, self hatred, and suicide.
    Marin may be a very nice person but his teaching could really screw up more then a few lives.
    Again, I admire your comments. Sorry that mine aren’t to your liking but for me its too urgent an issue, that I care too strongly about and I have to respond my own way.

  79. Eugene says

    @AdamN

    “I’ve known way to many gay men who’ve been damaged by this kind of nonsense, resulting in drug abuse, self hatred, and suicide.”

    Do you think I’m unaware of this problem? My point is that the realistic alternative can be even worse. They can get kicked out of their homes by their anti-gay parents, so they’ll have to rent out their body in order to survive. They can be subjected to harsh “ex-gay” therapy. They can keep hiding their “same-sex attractions” because youth pastors either won’t talk about it or will say anti-gay nonsense – which surely can result in “drug abuse, self hatred, and suicide”.

    The thing is, Marin isn’t actively pushing ex-gay therapy. His “continuum of change” even includes “from secular to sacred”. And he says that it must be God’s timeline, not ours. That’s why even the fact that the kid is Christian will probably be enough for some pastors to think that the kid is on the right path, so they will let him/her be.

    Of course, it all reeks to high heaven, but it’s not Marin’s fault.

  80. TANK says

    “My point is that the realistic alternative can be even worse.”

    Alternative? Said as if this is somehow not inevitable in these homes.

    “They can get kicked out of their homes by their anti-gay parents, so they’ll have to rent out their body in order to survive.”

    And this to reorientation therapy? Because the only alternative that will be fostered by marin is “the possibility of change”; or did you have trouble decoding his soft hatred in not defining yourself by your sexuality? Reorientation therapy is proven harmful, but I suppose rather than becoming a homeless prostitute…but chances are if a family is willing to go to that extent, it would happen anyway.

    “They can be subjected to harsh “ex-gay”
    therapy.”

    Which he’s advocating for.

    “They can keep hiding their “same-sex attractions” because youth pastors either won’t talk about it or will say anti-gay nonsense – which surely can result in “drug abuse, self hatred, and suicide”

    But if the option is ex gay therapy (which is harmful and a religious lie), or survival sex on the street…perhaps in these situations you’re describing, the closet is the only option available to them…hence the mystery of your use of “alternative”.

    I really don’t see your point. Marin is not some clueless well meaning evangelical fundie who just doesn’t “get it”. He’s much more cynical than that, and he’s opposed to lgbt civil rights depending on the crowd he’s shaking down. This isn’t someone whose heart is in the right place…but perhaps you’re just contrarian.

  81. Eugene says

    @ TANK

    I certainly agree that Marin is cynical, but, for example, “the possibility of change” with no timeline is certainly better than strict ex-gay therapy. Of course, it isn’t good, but it’s better. He certainly isn’t saying that every gay kid can/must change. And he actually isn’t advocating for ex-gay therapy, anyway. It’s as if he’s saying, “Let it happen on its own”. For a gay kid in an anti-gay community, this approach can provide enough breathing room until he gets on his feet.

  82. AdamN says

    I would add esp after seeing the comments here from Marin’s followers and the comments over at his Love is An Orientation site, my particular response is just as valid as yours. A lot of these people are just mindlessly believing in this guy as an ally, when he is certainly not. If my comments shakes up one or two people, its a good thing in my book.

  83. TANK says

    Oy, it’s time to meme bust here…didn’t think I’d have to do that for you. I’ll do this quickly, because the previous arguments I’ve posted are golden, even if you didn’t get them. cut and paste.

    “Strict ex gay therapy” (that like TRUE CHRISTIAN, pilgrim?) IS what marin’s pushing. If by “strict,” you mean parents forcing their kids into ex gay therapy, are you so naive that you don’t think marin would endorse that given a receptive audience if he’s already endorsing ex gay therapy as a viable solution to what he considers a problem (viz., homosexuality)? If you’re even going as far as to endorse ex gay therapies (which he is), you’re in for a pound (no middleground). That he believes homosexuality NEEDS to change says two things. He thinks it’s wrong/evil/bad, and he thinks it CAN change (not by any accurate empirical study). Two false homophobic beliefs. Furthermore, if he subscribes to the rationality of christofascist homophobia, on what grounds can he deny its consequence (harmful ex gay therapies, abandoning children, voting against civil equality, gay bashing)? None. He’s contributing to the velocity of the meme. Lastly, he says whatever a pliant audience wants to hear. It’s the ex gay fire and brimstone to the evangelicals, to the soft hate (it’s wrong, but okeedokee) to the gays. That you think that this constitutes an improvement…soft hatred is often more insidious than the in your face “die” kind…is a little strange.

  84. Alex says

    @AdamN and Eugene
    Apparently, Lizzie is just trying to say that the big priority here is love, which is clearly being shown in this event that has happened. You can argue all day long about your beliefs and whatnot, but it doesn’t matter. I don’t mean to sound harsh. I’m just speaking truth. Your opinions do not matter because we all have opinions and the big point of this whole comment arena is that we can comment on this event that has happened and not our beliefs. To call her the bigot is hypocritical. You are being a bigot by spouting off your opinions like that. It’s simply being really critical and not respecting another person for what they’re saying. RESPECT. That’s all that matters here. LOVE. These are the priorities. She simply wanted people to focus on what matters. That’s all. Maybe her beliefs are different than yours but that doesn’t matter.

  85. Eugene says

    @Alex

    “She simply wanted people to focus on what matters. That’s all.”

    Is that why she said that “being homosexual is equal to lying” and homosexuality is “clearly wrong”? You’re ridiculous…

  86. TANK says

    Our comments and opinions just as much as yours do, asshole. Look, you dispicable piglet, “LOVE” is not the point if it comes at the cost of gay civil and social equality…and it clearly does here. So whatever obscurantist and ecclesiastical (religious/christianist) definition of love you’re relying completely misunderstands and ignores the reality. Batterers tell their partners that they love them while they’re beating the shit out of them…that’s your kind of love, and that’s the type of love you respond to…sane people think otherwise.

    And no, we’re not being bigoted by telling the truth about marin’s very real homophobia and bigotry. BIGOTRY IS NOT RESPECTABLE AND DESERVES NO RESPECT. You are clearly a christianist troll.

  87. Alex says

    She just happened to mention what she believes. She wasn’t trying to change how you see things, she was just mentioning it. She just commented on this video and said she liked it. And then, you over-analyze everything and criticize what she said. I don’t appreciate you throwing loaded words at me like a little kid. I am not ridiculous. I am a person, who was just letting you know that this person had good intentions. Just because you don’t see things the same as her doesn’t mean that she sees you badly. And you know what sucks about this? Anything I say you’re going to argue. Because you’re just looking for something wrong in everything that is said. So I am finished. Have a nice day. And God does really care about you. And I am trying. I am sorry if anyone has offended you or made you feel badly. She was just a person trying to spread some love.

  88. TANK says

    And beliefs matter. Beliefs have consequences, cause behaviors…in fact, that’s the only way to make sense of beliefs (the behaviors that they cause). Beliefs in lgbt civil and social equality are ethically superior to beliefs like lizzie’s, marin’s and yours…the beliefs you hold are ethically repulsive…and completely unjustifiable. We have just as much of a right to argue with your non-logic and irrationality as you have to be a bigoted slimebag…but as far as the value of those beliefs and the content…not all beliefs are equal, and yours just happen to false…flat out false…and there is no neutrality here…you and marin are enemies of lgbt people. As to the “truth” of any statement you make, it’s clearly in the service of an agenda that celebrates falsity and bigotry.

    And I’m just “happening” to mention what I believe…and the difference between lizzie, you and marin…and any other christofascist bigot is that I can prove the truth of my beliefs, whereas you are without recourse to any justifiable rationale.

  89. Alex says

    @Tank
    Stop. Quit telling me that my love isn’t real. I am sorry. I didn’t mean to call you a bigot. Just stop bashing me. This isn’t right. I don’t care how many words you throw at me; it doesn’t make sense. I’m sorry for whatever I did wrong. Just forget it. Forget everything I said if all it does is irritate you. I don’t mean to create conflict.

  90. Eugene says

    @Alex

    “Just because you don’t see things the same as her doesn’t mean that she sees you badly.”

    She said, “Being homosexual is equal to lying…”. Do you believe that lying a good thing? It doesn’t surprise me…

    “She was just a person trying to spread some love.”

    This kind of “love” is worse than hate.

  91. TANK says

    no, your warped and twisted understanding of love is wrong. Love to you is equivalent to christian bigotry and intolerance. That is not what love means to me. It doesn’t mean that you single out and persecute and condemn people for the color their hair, skin, and sexual orientation. No one’s telling you that love isn’t real…just your gimicky christianist sales pitch “variation” isn’t love as most people understand the term. Your brand of “love” promotes and compounds needless suffering. And for what? To satisfy the illiterate beliefs of prescientific nomads? We can do without that.

  92. Lizzie says

    Not once did I judge them for what they do. They are not better or worse than me. I am equal to them in every way. I sin just like they do. I lie, I lust, I am very selfish, I am prideful, and the sad thing is that I do it daily. I refuse to look at this again. It breaks my heart that such hate can be written down. It’s incredibly sad that you are so blinded by anger that you miss the point of this entire website. I hope you feel wonderful hurting another human being by your slander and vulgarity. Maybe one day you’ll wake up. I’m sorry if this has offended you, but I am not sorry for speaking truth. I love gay people. I love all races of people. I love you. I love people period. And I’m sorry you can’t feel that.

  93. Eugene says

    @Lizzie

    “I’m sorry if this has offended you, but I am not sorry for speaking truth.”

    What’s funny is that we can say precisely the same thing.

    “I love gay people. I love all races of people. I love you. I love people period. And I’m sorry you can’t feel that.”

    According to the Marin Foundation website, “someone can say the words “I love you” until that person is blue in the face, and it will not matter one bit unless there are measurable, unconditional behaviors attached with those words.”

    And when you also don’t miss the chance to say that homosexuality is “clearly wrong”, you can’t expect us to believe you when you say you “love” us. What was it if not judgment?

  94. AdamN says

    @Alex
    “Apparently, Lizzie is just trying to say that the big priority here is love, which is clearly being shown in this event that has happened.”
    Are you brain damaged? Its been pretty much established by now that love was not for sale at the event.
    “RESPECT. That’s all that matters here. LOVE. These are the priorities.”
    Its not respect and love when someone compares an immutable, natural aspect of your identity to sin, it’s disrespect and hatred.
    “She wasn’t trying to change how you see things, she was just mentioning it. She just commented on this video and said she liked it. And then, you over-analyze everything and criticize what she said.”
    You do understand the point of discussion, don’t you? Yeah, apparently not..
    “She was just a person trying to spread some love.”
    NO. She came to a gay blog, OUR blog, and spouted hateful bigoted talking points dressed up as “love”.
    @Lizzie
    “Not once did I judge them for what they do. ”
    Yes, calling homosexuality sinful isn’t judgmental at all! What is wrong with your brain????
    “It’s incredibly sad that you are so blinded by anger that you miss the point of this entire website”
    Its incredibly sad that your religion of “love” has made you such a hateful, ignorant, no-nothing bigot. I’m doing just fine, thank you very much. And this is a gay website, so what the hell are you talking about?
    “I hope you feel wonderful hurting another human being by your slander and vulgarity. ”
    I don’t feel bad insulting bigots, racists, homophobes, and sexists. God knows, you certainly didn’t feel bad about coming to a gay blog and having the nerve and HATRED to call us sinners.
    “I love you. I love people period. And I’m sorry you can’t feel that.”
    Oh shove it! Really, you people are so hilariously rude and offensive and high mighty about it. You wouldn’t know REAL love if it bit you in the ass.

  95. AnneLouviver says

    Hey, there really is no compromise when it comes to civil rights. Black people aren’t “a little bit equal”
    Marin’s a clever guy, good at fundraising, clever at working both sides of the fence.
    I wouldn’t join his organization or give money to it, but hey, if guys want to apologize for being idiots to gay people, good on you. Keep up the apologizing, but remember plenty of christian churches have been good to gay people for much longer than marin has been alive.

  96. Adrian Kimberly says

    This whole conversation (comments) remind me of how in Renaissance times “learned” men argued the days away by debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

    Religion is BUNK! Until the gay community can get beyond aping those who would oppress us (as American blacks failed to do, too), I don’t see any hope for a reasoned, intelligent conversation with those who believe in a bearded man in the sky, a single father with an obviously gay son, who had his boy killed in order to increase his popularity.

    Again, religion (ALL of it) is bunk. Those who promote it are hucksters and frauds.

  97. DBdoe says

    As a Christian man who happens to be gay, I find the core teachings of Christ and Christianity to be profound, affirming, and comforting. These are: 1) Christians must love everyone and treat everyone equally, with a special call to help the historically oppressed; 2) Christians may not ever judge others; 3) God loves all of us unconditionally and does not see demographic differences such as race, sex, or sexual orientation; 4) Christians must be generous and giving towards others; and Christians must help the poor and seek peace. As the Bible says in Galatians 3:28: ‘There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no male or female, we are all one in Christ’. To God, same-sex marriage is exactly the same as different-sex marriage. To God, romantic love is holy and is not sinful.

  98. DBdoe says

    One of the bizarre ideas espoused by some homophobic fundamentalists who pretend to be Christian, is that they follow a morally relativistic and hypocritical ideology. They don’t say all marriage is wrong, but arbitrarily single out marriage between people of the same sex. Whatever your standards are for marriage they should be consistent for all couples – regardless of whether the couple is male-female, female-female, or male-male (or left-handed-right-handed, white-black, etc.).

  99. Rin says

    Yes, but I bet if you asked him whether or not men and women having sex outside of marriage was a sin, too, he would probably say “yes”.

    My mom is the same way. It’s odd. She thinks that gays should get married (anyone should) before having sex. She feels the point is creating a harmonious union of souls or something like that.

  100. Rin says

    Wow, back-reading….

    Okay, to the jury who feels that you cannot be cool with Christians because this panacea of “Christianity” believes x, y, z (hah!)…I have some questions:

    1) Is it “Christianity” or the US Federal Government that will not acknowledge gays marrying?

    * some states do
    * many Christian churches do

    2) Was it Christianity or the United States government that deported gay and lesbian spouses back to their own country?

    3) Was it Christianity or the US Military that told people it was okay to kill, be killed, torture, be tortured, but they weren’t allowed to tell people who they were sexually attracted to?

    And yet…you all pay taxes, choose to live in a country that doesn’t support your equal rights because you believe it will get better someday…yes?

    Well, there is NO BASIS for the hatred of homosexuals in the Christian Gospels. In fact, there was no such word as “homosexual”. It wasn’t talked about at all. Only love, devotion, compassion, mercy, and forgiveness.

    As for “sin”…the word used in Koine means “to miss the mark” not BAD, BAD, BAD. It means the same as if an arrow misses a target. It is neither bad nor good, just not in the mark. Christians can “get better”. If they actually read the Gospels, they will know that it is not a matter of hating the sin and loving the sinner. That’s not what Jesus said at all.

    “Sin” means simply to miss the mark, so how can you hate that?

    If they read the Gospels they will realize that they need to mind their own business, do good works for people, love people more, forgive more, and care more.

    Just as the US government is coming around…Christians will come around.

    And if they don’t…they aren’t Christians. And if the US Government doesn’t…then the Constitution is worthless.

  101. Jim says

    Phobia means to be scared of. Christians are not exactly scared of homosexuals they just think that it is wrong for anyone to act on homosexual tendencies because of Romans Chapter one in the bible. Here is verses 21-32 below of it:

    Romans 1:21-32 -bible [KJV]
    21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    **** 29Being filled with all
    **********************************
    *******unrighteousness,**********
    ******************
    fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    It’s just that since that says homosexual actions make people unrighteous we want it to be easier to not have opportunities to act on the feelings for people considering going bi or homosexual by making an environment that does not promote it for our friends and family. Anybody who acts on homosexual acts probably would not easily be forgiven by God unless they seriously regret it because it is intensely against God’s will with real tears and sadness. Confess it to a priest, they hear everything and unless the priest wants to get kicked-out of their religion can’t talk about sins after the confession, and it can be like you never make the mistake and sinned.

    I hope all the gay community returns to the church to try to live a life of chastity. Perhaps some might have to pray a good amount for the graces to do that but never give up. God can forgive contrite hearts.

  102. Sophia says

    It’s great to see Christians taking up the cross and loving those they may not agree with. Jesus acknowledges marriage between a man and a woman, the Bible mentions to not lay with another man as one lays with a woman, however Jesus also says to love your neighbors, love your enemies, love each other, love anyone and everyone. Biblically, homosexuality is not what God intends for his people, but the same goes for divorce, pre-marital sex, cheating on your spouse, lust, coveting etc but people seem to not focus on these as much. Can you imagine fundamentals holding hate signs against those who are divorced? the important thing is that despite where you come from, who you are or what you’ve done, God freely gives us love and grace that knows no bounds. And as Christians, we should do the same.

  103. AllieS says

    I am am proud to say I am a Christian. I am also proud to say that I have never told anyone else what to believe or how to live their life. My beliefs are just that- MINE. None of you should be telling a Christian what they can and cant believe anymore then a Christian should be forcing their believes on you. Isnt that the whole essence of tolerance? You dont believe what I believe but you choose to respect that its my choice how I live my life? That is how I choose to handle my beliefs.

    There are plenty of religions that believe the way I live my life is wrong. There are religions that believe it is wrong to wear the bathing suit I wear to the beach. There are religions that believe I am wrong for eating certain types of foods. There are religions that believe I am wrong if I use birth control. The examples are endless because religious beliefs are diverse. But do I hate these people for not agreeing with my lifestyle? NO! Do I try to vilify them for having this opinion? NO! They have a right to believe whatever they want to- I just expect them to treat me with respect regardless of whether they agree with my choices.

    I acknowledge there is a lack of respect with the way many Christians handle the gay and lesbian community. And I acknowledge that the same equality is not given to same-sex couples as it is to heterosexual couples (though it would be an ignorant statement to just blame that on Christians solely). I dont agree with any of this and believe each person should have the same rights, regardless of whether I personally believe in their lifestyle. So its unfortunate that the actions of some seem to be attributed to the rest of us. I shouldnt be vilified for what I believe, as long as I am treated all of you with respect and acknowledging that you have your choices and I have mine.

    The rants on here about Christians are just an example of many of you doing exactly what you claim to hate. You dont want to be told how to live your life. You dont want to be vilified because your lifestyle doesnt align with a particular religious belief. But you cant spew that kind of judgement and hate on Christians choices anymore then a Christian should spew the same on you for your choices.

    If I met any of you in person, I would treat you with nothing but kindness and respect….not because I “want your money” or I’m “trying to convert you” or any of the other motives some of you claim this group has. I would act this way because I can love Jesus and still love you. I can have my beliefs and still be tolerant that you have yours.

  104. Reilly says

    I’m a 16 year old gay boy in a little town. I came out my freshmen year and having been fighting to prove a point to all my peers that I’m just a normal kid. Slowly I have made a difference in such a small town. I have been to a few of the churches around here, and there are some who say I need to be helped and changed but I don’t think so. I have many religious friends who treat me normally and don’t try to preach to me or change me or anything. I just wanted to throw that out there because not every person who goes to church believes I’m goinng to hell, or any other homosexual. Or if they do believe that, why should it bother us? They are entitled to their beliefs just as much as we are

  105. Reilly says

    I also agree with Allies, completely. I don’t feel homoseuals have the right to hate on religions because of what they believe, now how they go about what they believe is a different story. I don’t agree with bashing on religions, I am not religious but I think being rude to them for their beliefs is just as horrible as others being rude to us for being gay or lesbian.

  106. Dave says

    I’m so baffled by the response of some of the commentators here, who spew with the sort of angry bile I’ve come to expect from the worst of the fundamentalists. Are you so cynical that you think that this guy making signs to apologize for the church’s actions is acting out of hatred for the GLBT community?

    Of course he doesn’t necessarily have a common perspective as most of us here. But Good Lord, if everyone who thought homosexuality wasn’t quite natural thought and believed as Mr. Marin does, gay marriage would be legalized in all 50 states (and our teens wouldn’t be under the impression that “gay” can be used as a pejorative). Isn’t Mr. Marin the type of person you want to represent the fundamentalists?

    They aren’t going away. We should welcome those that want to make that connection.

  107. evolutionisfact says

    So f*cking sad to see so many of our “fellow” homos being so blatantly SUCKERED in by this religious group and their obviously closeted loony of a leader!! Simply PATHETIC!!! Ain’t much more to say!!

  108. Sarm says

    Not good enough. If Christians truly want to atone for their crimes against humanity, they will release the stranglehold of tyranny they have on this country. They will stop playing the victim even though they have been the aggressor for their entire existence. They will stop lying to everyone. They will stop hating everyone just because. As far as I’m concerned, they are still the scum of the earth, and deserve no forgiveness. They’ve dealt too much in deceit, betrayal, torture, and murder to ever be trusted again. And to those who have the audacity to defend the indefensible, how do you sleep at night? How does it feel, completely lacking a conscience, or any sense of humanity, trying to defend those who think nothing of killing, or inciting others to kill innocent people who they just so happen to hate for no reason at all?

  109. Anonymous says

    Alright. Does no one see how this is an unresolvable issue? The frustration that many of you seem to have has less to do with Christian people and more to do with the scriptures that they’re trying to follow. It’s important to recognize this. Regardless of what bible believing Christians do or say to try to “make things right”, unless they “say uncle” and uproot their beliefs, they’re faith will clash with the gay lifestyle. Christian people are not the enemy to homosexuality but their faith by definition is. It sorta goes the same the other way around. As much as a defender/supporter of homosexuality wants to accept and agree with Christianity, neither parties can overlook that the the holy scripture calls homosexual relationships an “abomination to God” (that’s kind of a heavy expression to to just overlook, right?). The Bible was written way before anyone reading this was ever born. Today’s Christian did not write the scripture but they do choose to follow it. Christians by definition are followers of Jesus Christ, a man who unapologetically acknowledged the scriptures as the holy word of God. The scripture, “how can two men walk together unless they agree?” sorta brings perspective to this brick wall that people repeatedly run into concerning the Bible and homosexuality. Some people have chosen to disregard certain parts of the bible in hopes of pleasing people. Others have chosen to follow it in its entirety in hopes of pleasing God, who repeatedly commands to honor Him above all men…Basically, it is what it is BUT if there could ever be any sympathy felt towards a Christian who believes that the bible is the word of God, understand that regardless of how much Christians “wiggle”, if they are who they say they are, then this particular issue locks them in a pretty tight spot with very little room for compromise. If they stand on the word of God, then they oppose gay pride. If they stand for gay pride then they’re oppose the word of God. It’s all or nothing truthfully. You’ve got to turn your back on one or the other. The bible warns believers about these “back against the wall” moments and I believe that this is definitely one of them…. Personally, I’ve got love for both parties… May the best man win?

  110. Jack says

    Why do so many gay men participate in the gay pride parades half naked? Are they trying to show the straight world the being gay is mostly about the body and sex? I think they often succeed in doing just that.

  111. David says

    The entire point is they are apologizing for “someone else’s” actions. Umm, excuse me, but I thought you couldn’t actually apologize for actions performed by others. The guilty culprits need to be the ones to apologize for their own misdeeds, eh? Nice try, Marin, but I’m not totally convinced.

  112. says

    Hi, I’m a Canadian, wife, mother and Christian. I just wanted to add my voice to the mix, even within such a group of eloquent speakers.

    I was ‘touched’ when I first saw the article about the “I’m Sorry” signs at the Chicago Gay Pride. I know nothing of the group who did this. In the past I’ve been deeply embarrassed to hear about hate campaigns against Gays and Lesbians… it’s disgusting and an outrage. I can’t imagine how it must hurt to be at the receiving end of those words.

    So, when I see these Christians saying “I’m sorry”, my heart joins in. Just as it joins with Chris Tse in his spoken word apology for what we Christians have done and do in a broader sense in the name of God. http://youtu.be/EieFdXy_HwM

    I am not a political activist, I do not for one moment know how you must feel to be continually mistreated by ‘us’. But, I can honestly say I am sorry for how Christians have acted… if I may without coming across as better than those who are silent. I have no agenda… I know none of you. I am not looking for understanding, or relationship, or money, or anything other than to let you know there is another human being in this world that hurts for you.

    I believe we can begin to ‘love’ one another without having to agree on every issue… and have experienced this with my children, with my friends, with my spouse… we do not agree on everything, but we honour and respect the position of the one we love. You are deserving of this honour and respect as well, apart from our differences.

    So, please take my words for what they are, an attempt to connect at an emotional level with whomever will read and accept them. I do not speak for anyone else, just me.

    And, I am sorry.

    Lesley-Anne

  113. says

    congratulations!!!!

    Are complicating something so simple and pure as the Gospel.
    Just let Christ live in us and live with him, but then the human being has to invent a lot, because for some of what Christ said was too simple and outdated.

    Simple as the answer given by Jesus the woman caught in adultery and her accusers.
    No charges, no three-point sermon, without opening parenthesis, without convening a special meeting of the 12th, he just turned and said:

    – Who is without sin cast the first stone!
    And then concludes:
    – Cade your accusers? … I do not condemn you, now go and sin no more …

    Easy huh? Need more than that?

    read this: http://protestadasgospel.blogspot.com/2012/02/evangelho-simples-assim-como-jesus.html

  114. David Stewart says

    Good work to all the fellows that have exposed this fraud.
    I don’t have anything deep or thoughtful to add to the conversation; I have only this – You can be 100% guaranteed that this Marin freak is sucking cock like crazy.

  115. Rusty Long says

    If a homosexual asks a Unitarian (not just Christians but Jews & Muslims too) if being a homosexual is a sin, then they denotes that they are not atheist, agnostic or a deist, but actually do believe in God. It is only through God can there distinction between sin and obedience. If you truly believe in God then you accept his commandments. If you do not accept all of his commandments then you are not a full on believer. It is possible to be somewhere in between a nonbeliever and a believer. This is for people who are studying philosophy. If they simply want to know if they agree with their life then that would be different, but what every nonbeliever needs to know about believers is that we don’t even agree with our own life. We are all broken and all live in sin. This question has no significance except to distance your own self from others. If homosexuals ask this question, then they only want to distance themselves, and if they want to distance themselves, then the parades and displays cannot stand for equality but only for attention. This is vanity that should not be merited by anyone for any group. If you want equality, don’t ask if we accept your life; ask us if we love you, and yes we love you because you are human. There are some people that claim to be a believer but show hate. Ignore them because they are so stupid that they don’t even understand their own God and his teachings. As far as marriage goes there needs to be understanding that the history and understanding of marriage came from the Bible. It amazes me that Christians oppose same sex marriage but yet have nothing to say when two nonbelievers get married. They should be viewed the same, simply as unions recognized by our government. Believers should have no problem with any union since they are to be obedient to their government. I can understand the believer who wants to protect the identity of marriage since it came from God, hence calling it a union. Government benefits however are manmade and therefore can be changed by man, so yes all unions whether a believer, nonbeliever including homosexuals should all have equal benefits and rights.

  116. Mk_ultra_again says

    Wow, this church and their fake “apology” is such a disgusting display. Even moreso than the Nazi christians coming on here to defend their gay holocaust.
    I believe that christians are disgusting sub-human scum who should not be allowed to preach in public and should be punished severely for spreading their views.
    But I love them! And I would never spread hate about them! Why can’t they tolerate my different opinion of them!

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