Homophobia In Israel Defense Forces...

IDFGay Israel's military service has allowed gays and lesbians to serve openly since 1993. That doesn't mean, however, that the nation's defense force is necessarily gay friendly:

Forty percent of the gay and lesbian soldiers said they were verbally abused and 4 percent said they were physically abused, according to a new survey by the Israel Gay Youth organization.

Some 45 percent of respondents in the study said they heard homophobic remarks frequently or very frequently in their units, while 59 percent of soldiers in combat units said they heard homophobic remarks frequently.

Sixty-three percent of respondents said they had come out to their family, but only 32 percent had told fellow soldiers or their commander about their homosexuality.

One wonders whether the repeal of the States' Don't Ask, Don't Tell will help combat homophobia in our ranks. If we're anything like Israel the answer is clearly no.

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Comments

  1. Please. Holland sent token forces to all those places, just as a gesture to allow them to remain in NATO.

    Regardless, I don't know that we have any evidence that there have been any fewer incidents in other militaries that allow openly gay soldiers than is the case with the Israeli military. Jews tend to be the most progressive group in the US and, historically, in the West, in general, so I doubt you are going to find a more progressive mindset towards gays in any military than you will find in Israel.

    You might, but I doubt it.

    Posted by: Rick | Aug 16, 2011 4:27:53 PM


  2. "Totally disagree. Feminism is a load of crap, as far as I am concerned, as are the gender-bending notions that go along with it. It has been a disaster for society in just about every way.......and if gay men continue to hitch their wagon to it, they will fail to be accepted over the long run."

    You are unequivocally wrong. There was no prescribed role for gay men in recent Western society, besides being the marginalized community outcasts. First wave feminism challenged the belief in separate gendered spheres, and by doing so, created the idea of a truly public existence. Without feminism, there would be no advances for other minority rights. It also goes without saying that feminist progressives have been some of the most readily accepting of gays, even pre-dating the modern gay rights movement.

    We would do well to continue combating notions of 'proper' behaviour for the social construct that is gender, and we would do well to remember our allies and why their causes tend to align with ours.


    "But I think that, yes, there are gay men who behave appropriately when they think there is something to lose (like their jobs), but who behave effeminately in private (and espouse gender-bending values) and if they try to take the latter tendency public because they have misinterpreted where society is going, it could cause problems....."

    So you have a problem with people being themselves when it doesn't affect anyone else's life then.

    "The real solution, of course, is to eradicate the causes of that effeminate, living-vicariously-through-women behavior in the first place...."

    What, putting women back in the kitchen and taking away their right to vote?

    Posted by: Nat | Aug 16, 2011 4:35:50 PM


  3. "Please. Holland sent token forces to all those places, just as a gesture to allow them to remain in NATO."

    First off, the country is not called Holland.

    Second, you a) asked when the last time the Netherlands was at war with another country was, and b) asserted that the Netherlands has not deployed combat troops into battle. And it's been shown that the Dutch have been militarily active since the end of the Cold War, and have fought in actual combat. Your glib dismissal of a society that committed and lost some of its young men and women to war is sickening.

    Posted by: Nat | Aug 16, 2011 4:41:49 PM


  4. RICK is incapable of posting on this site without reminding everyone how much he hates "femmes", how much his father hated having a gay son, and how tiny his testes are.


    RIck is that wimpy teenage boy that says "I'm gay, but i'm not like those stereotypical gays, i'm like a real man, you know? like, i do MAN things and i'm not a FEM and i don't like divas, and i like to do MANLY MAN things."

    no wonder RICK's father was ashamed of him.

    Posted by: Little Kiwi | Aug 16, 2011 4:46:26 PM


  5. @NAT This is one of the great misperceptions of gay men, namely that feminism had anything to do with changes in attitudes towards male homosexuality, when, in fact, the two are totally unrelated.

    In reality, the acceptance of feminism had to do with the social and emotional dependence of straight men on women (which was, itself, a product of a homophobic male culture)--which gave women a base of power to work with (which gay men did not and do not have) and the culture of chivalry, which insisted that a gentleman be "nice" to "ladies" and accommodate them, whenever possible.

    None of this applies to gay men and, indeed, you see acceptance of feminism now even among the Far Right, who remain viciously homophobic (they are open, for example. to a woman like Michelle Bachman or Sarah Palin being President of the United States, the ultimate power position in society, even as they don't want gay men to have even the most basic respect or rights). A total double standard that reflects your misunderstanding.

    The changes in attitude we have seen towards homosexuality are, instead, rooted in science. Over the last century, as research into human sexuality began and became more sophisticated, the understanding that homosexuality was not "abnormal" emerged.....and as younger generations have been raised with that knowledge (as opposed to the ignorance of their parents and grandparents), attitudes have changed.

    That change in attitude towards homosexuality has NOTHING to do, however, with changes in attitudes towards gender roles, nothing whatsoever, and that is where so many in the gay movement are so badly, badly misinformed and mistaken, probably because of their own gender-identity issues that are a product of oppression......

    Posted by: Rick | Aug 16, 2011 4:48:10 PM


  6. Thank you Rick. Finally, FINALLY a gay man who gets it and actual LIKES being a man.

    This obessision some gay men have with femininity and diva this and diva that has always been to their own detriment. These types of gay man are some of the most miserable people I've ever met. Maybe if they realized being gay has ZERO to do with some perceived female identity the HAPPIER they would be in their lives.

    Posted by: Marty | Aug 16, 2011 5:02:46 PM


  7. "In reality, the acceptance of feminism had to do with the social and emotional dependence of straight men on women (which was, itself, a product of a homophobic male culture)--which gave women a base of power to work with (which gay men did not and do not have) and the culture of chivalry, which insisted that a gentleman be "nice" to "ladies" and accommodate them, whenever possible."

    This makes absolutely no sense. Nor do your statements conform to actual history; rather, it is a sexist impressionism of someone who clearly hasn't done their reading.

    Feminism as a process emerged out of late 19th and early 20th progressive strains. Women became increasingly aware of social issues that had been previously designated as part of the 'public' sphere - and thus out of their purview. Education, temperance, poverty - early feminist thinkers fed off social discontent, not suffrage or status. Gradually, their advocacy efforts coalesced, and as time wore on, women became more interested in suffrage and true equality, i.e. creating an actual public sphere, as opposed to a patriarchy.


    "None of this applies to gay men and, indeed, you see acceptance of feminism now even among the Far Right, who remain viciously homophobic (they are open, for example. to a woman like Michelle Bachman or Sarah Palin being President of the United States, the ultimate power position in society, even as they don't want gay men to have even the most basic respect or rights). A total double standard that reflects your misunderstanding."

    What double standard, exactly? The far right still actively works to restrict female reproductive rights. Just because they allow a woman to be in a leadership role doesn't mean they embrace feminism; just as allowing gay Republican groups to operate doesn't mean they're pro-equality.

    "The changes in attitude we have seen towards homosexuality are, instead, rooted in science. Over the last century, as research into human sexuality began and became more sophisticated, the understanding that homosexuality was not "abnormal" emerged.....and as younger generations have been raised with that knowledge (as opposed to the ignorance of their parents and grandparents), attitudes have changed."

    Scientific study isn't that useful if shifting perceptions of morality aren't occurring as well. And homosexuality has immensely benefited from the decline of religious practice in the West.

    It's also noteworthy that, in communist countries where religion was banned, homosexuality was more popularly denounced for being offensive to masculine ideals. Where religion didn't thrive, gendered roles persisted, and gays were routinely stigmatized for violating them.

    "probably because of their own gender-identity issues that are a product of oppression......"

    There is only one gender-identity issue that confronts every human, and it's the idea that there are prescribed gender roles. There aren't. We have different sexual equipment, but there's no reason to map an entire gendered culture upon those scant few facts.

    Posted by: Nat | Aug 16, 2011 5:09:20 PM


  8. "Thank you Rick. Finally, FINALLY a gay man who gets it and actual LIKES being a man."

    What is a man, exactly? What do you define a man by, besides his sexual equipment?

    Posted by: Nat | Aug 16, 2011 5:11:43 PM


  9. An interesting, sometimes educational discussion going on here, but it seems that some have forgotten to ask some very important questions. How many of those 4% who were physically abused were Lesbians? How many were gay? And, what type of physical abuse is being perpetrated? There are probably heterosexual soldiers of both genders, different ethnicities, and different religious beliefs (is that allowed in the Israeli military? I really don't know the answer to that question.) who are also harrassed and physically abused. It would be more telling to have some benchmark statistics from when open service was first implemented, and then some longitudinal studies done to see what, if any, improvements have occurred since those benchmark statistics were first measured. Otherwise, if you have nothing to compare it to, these statistics are meaningless and have little value in providing a full analysis of the effects of open service in the Israeli military force.

    Posted by: Keith | Aug 16, 2011 5:19:26 PM


  10. "That change in attitude towards homosexuality has NOTHING to do, however, with changes in attitudes towards gender roles"

    Ever hear of ancient Greece or Rome? Men and boys who allowed themselves to be penetrated were thought of as akin to women.

    Sexism is at the heart of homophobia: men penetrate, women/homosexuals receive.

    Posted by: Paul | Aug 16, 2011 5:25:27 PM


  11. nobody that "likes being a man" says the bullshit that Marty and RICK say. EVER. these two wimps are simply insecure self-loathing cowards who were embarrassments to their fathers.


    ere come Marty and RICK to show how butthurt they are because their fathers didn't want cocksuckers for sons.

    NEWSFLASH, you wimps - you're the miserable ones. walking around furious that gender-nonconformists are more man than you'll ever be. Ten bucks says neither of you could post a photo or link to videos of yourselves, you don't have the BALLS.

    your obsession with letting everyone know "how not into divas you are" is pathetic.

    No wonder your father's fucking hated having to call you Son.

    RICK blames "femme guys" for his father being ashamed of him.

    Newsflash, RICK, your father was ashamed of you for two reasons.

    1. he was a fucking ignorant piece of shit
    2. you're a cowardly little wimp

    Daddy didnt resent you because some men are femme, daddy resented you because you have no BALLS.

    This is what lil'RICK does - every single post he ever makes is about his anger toward "femme guys" or any forms of gender-nonconformity.

    wake up, RICK. You're a wimp and a coward. Why don't you do what your father always wished you'd do and go hang yourself.

    we get it. you're an insecure wimp who feels emasculated because you're gay, your piece of shit father passed on his misogyny to you, and you've wasted your entire fucking life looking over your shoulder worrying about if people are associating you with "fems" or not.
    grow some balls or have 10-12 drinks and got for a nice long drive in the rain.

    you won't be missed.

    Posted by: Little Kiwi | Aug 16, 2011 5:26:24 PM


  12. Listen, RICK, im 60 yrs, twice WIA, and USMC RECON to boot, and there are ALOT of "us" who DONT SHARE your views..."a nurse is not a soldier..'R- U TONY PERKINS in disguise?lol..if you knew ANYTHING about 'combat units' in action, you would not spew this BS..

    Posted by: codyj | Aug 16, 2011 5:54:09 PM


  13. This should not surprise anyone. The end of DADT will not herald a great coming out by servicemen, but rather the elimination of the threat of separation. People need to understand that the military is no bed of roses, and that things will only change very gradually - it's a microcosm of the country at large.

    Posted by: prophet | Aug 16, 2011 6:37:14 PM


  14. You have to ignore RICK. His father never accepted him, and only tolerated him as long as lil'RICKY convinced him that he wasn't like "those other Barbra Streisand loving stereotypical gays."

    In short, RICK had to cut off his own balls in order to be tolerated by his father. He's a wimp and a coward and he hates women, he hates gay men that dont' hate women, and he resents all the "stereotypical gays" whom he blames for his father being ashamed of him.

    it's pathetic and RICK has wasted his entire life so far. just kick the bucket, wuss. you failed at life.

    Posted by: Little Kiwi | Aug 16, 2011 6:58:50 PM


  15. Little Kiwi (lol) is a great example of what I'm saying...miserable

    Posted by: Marty | Aug 16, 2011 7:16:01 PM


  16. keep it up, Marty. we get it. you had to remind daddy that you're "still a real man" to take his mind off the reality that your hole loves to eat big fat cocks.

    we GET it. now it's your turn to get over it.

    it's not the fault of those fem guys you despise that your father was ashamed to call you his son.

    Posted by: Little Kiwi | Aug 16, 2011 7:19:53 PM


  17. project much? lol

    Posted by: Marty | Aug 16, 2011 7:32:41 PM


  18. it's practically a sad joke with RICK.

    the topic can be "gay men prefer green apples over red ones" and he'll find a way to complain about how much he hates Femme guys.

    it's so tired. we get it. dad didn't love you. move on.

    Posted by: Little Kiwi | Aug 16, 2011 7:37:44 PM



  19. "What is a man, exactly? What do you define a man by, besides his sexual equipment?"

    It is pathetic that you even have to ask that question because it reveals not only gross ignorance of contemporary behavioral science, but the utter desperation of your adherence to a bankrupt ideology.

    Educate yourself. There are huge, biologically driven behavioral differences between the genders. Some are related to hormonal differences (testosterone vs. estrogen), others are related to differences in brain structure (Dr. Oz recently did a little demonstration on his show that indicated the differences in the amount of gray matter between men and women and how that effects their perceptions and behaviors).

    As I said, feminism is the biggest intellectual crock in the history of Western civilization and that is only now becoming fully apparent--it is and was nothing but an intellectually dishonest attempt at a power grab and as such has no real validity, and certainly no validity at all for homosexual men and our struggle to liberate ourselves and other men.....

    Posted by: Rick | Aug 16, 2011 7:47:56 PM


  20. RICK, give your dad the gift he always wanted - your death.

    Posted by: Little Kiwi | Aug 16, 2011 8:19:25 PM


  21. Go Rick. It really does come down to biology. Effeminacy is learned. Being a woman is not. Gay men need to free THEMSELVES from the self hate of learned effeminacy. It's literally killing us.

    Posted by: Marty | Aug 16, 2011 8:36:51 PM


  22. Oh God, Little Kiwi is too wonderful for words. Did you ever see such a stormy boy? He tears more hair than anyone on here, and he usually makes pretty good, if furious, sense. I want to kiss his sassy mouth way way into next week.

    Posted by: uffda | Aug 16, 2011 10:42:49 PM


  23. Interesting exchange between Rick, Marty and Little Kiwi. Although Little Kiwi is successfully pointing out that gay and bisexual men have no reason to fear effeminate gay men, the biggest and most important point has to go to Rick. Feminism is a total crock, with entirely negative consequences for gay men.

    Nat, why are you so obsessed with championing feminism? Your priorities are completely misplaced because you want to champion the rights of straight women and ignore the rights of gay and bisexual men. That is simply a different flavor of self-hate.

    Little Kiwi, do you realize that straight females say vicious, condescending, hateful things about you behind your back? Wise up. The vast majority of men are your allies, and it's time that you made use of that opportunity.

    Rick and Marty, your points about the absurdity of gay men hitching their wagon to feminism are well taken. However, I think you worry unnecessarily about femme gay guys causing damage to gay rights. The general population is sharp enough to realize that same-sex attraction is a much larger phenomenon among males than feminine and cross-dressing behavior. The smaller subsection of femme guys doesn't bother most straight men or make them think that this represents all same-sex behavior among males.

    Posted by: Artie Rimbaud | Aug 16, 2011 10:50:22 PM


  24. @ Nat,

    Regarding your quote: "It also goes without saying that feminist progressives have been some of the most readily accepting of gays, even pre-dating the modern gay rights movement."

    That is one of the most idiotic pieces of self-deceiving BS that I've run across. Truly homophobic and self-loathing. You should hang your head in shame. The "modern gay rights movement" began in Germany in the 1890s, you ignoramus, and American gay men fought against bigotry in the 1920s (Chicago) and the 40s and 50s throughout the nation, and their struggle owes no debt to straight women. Shame on you, Nat. No, really, I mean it. Shame on you.

    I'm reading your lengthy pleas for gay men to take orders from straight women and be their sidekicks, while women call the shots and insult gay men into the bargain. Your argument has an air of desperation to it. And I think I know why. The male population no longer lives in the fear that it did in last half of the twentieth century, when feminism held sway. And that apparently frightens you. Seems like men of all different stripes are too willing to support each other these days, both in the military and in civilian life. That doesn't suit you, does it? Too bad. Your fear-ridden century is gone.

    Posted by: Artie Rimbaud | Aug 16, 2011 11:30:14 PM


  25. I suggest seeing the film Yossi and Jagger by Eytan Fox (2002)for a close-up picture of gays in combat before commenting on Israel, military service, the Dutch military, or other subjects that you do not have first hand knowledge of. I do want to hear from LGBT service members on what they experienced during their enlistment. As to feminism, this is 2011 and that horse is long out of the barn.

    Posted by: Arthur Corbin | Aug 17, 2011 1:59:29 AM


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