Teen Christians Vs. Dan Savage At Student Journalism Conference: VIDEO
A great brouhaha is stirring in the nation's conservative publications over comments Dan Savage made two weeks ago while addressing the JEA/NSPA National High School Journalism Convention. The convention was entitled "Journalism On The Edge," which you'd think would prep participants for a certain amount of edginess in the presentations. Alas, the audience was not prepared for edginess. Savage's subject was to be bullying, and he got right to the point:
The Bible. We'll just talk about the Bible for a second. People often point out that they can't help it -- they can't help with the anti-gay bullying, because it says right there in Leviticus, it says right there in Timothy, it says right there in Romans, that being gay is wrong.
We can learn to ignore the bulls**t in the Bible about gay people. The same way, the same way we have learned to ignore the bulls**t in the Bible about shellfish, about slavery, about dinner, about farming, about menstruation, about virginity, about masturbation. We ignore bulls**t in the Bible about all sorts of things. The Bible is a radically pro-slavery document. Slave owners waved Bibles over their heads during the Civil War and justified it. The shortest book in the New Testament is a letter from Paul to a Christian slave owner about owning his Christian slave. And Paul doesn't say "Christians don't own people." Paul talks about how Christians own people.
We ignore what the Bible says about slavery, because the Bible got slavery wrong. Tim -- uh, Sam Harris, in A Letter To A Christian Nation, points out that the Bible got the easiest moral question that humanity has ever faced wrong. Slavery. What're the odds that the Bible got something as complicated as human sexuality wrong? One hundred percent.
The Bible says that if your daughter's not a virgin on her wedding night -- if a woman isn't a virgin on her wedding night, she shall be dragged to her father's doorstep and stoned to death. Callista Gingrich lives. And there is no effort to amend state constitutions to make it legal to stone women to death on their wedding night if they're not virgins. At least not yet. We don't know where the GOP is going these days.
People are dying because people can't clear this one last hurdle. They can't get past this one last thing in the Bible about homosexuality.
Um, one other thing I wanna talk about is -- [chuckles] -- so, you can tell the Bible guys in the hall that they can come back now, because I'm done beating up the Bible. It's funny, as someone who's on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible, how pansy-assed some people react when you push back.
I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. But. I have a right to defend myself. And to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-gay bigotry by pointing to the Bible, and insisting we must live by the code of Leviticus on this one issue and no other.
As Savage noted, Christian students in the thousands-strong audience fled from his address, first in a trickle, and then in a great flood. The exodus began right around the time Savage started talking about slavery. Very soon, the offended students were talking to the press. From the rightist rag Citizen Link:
A 17-year-old from California who was attending with half a dozen other students from her high school yearbook staff, was one of several students to walk out in the middle of Savage’s speech.
“The first thing he told the audience was, ‘I hope you’re all using birth control!’ ” she recalled. Then “he said there are people using the Bible as an excuse for gay bullying, because it says in Leviticus and Romans that being gay is wrong. Right after that, he said we can ignore all the ‘B.S.’ in the Bible.
“I was thinking, ‘This is not going a good direction at all,’ Then he started going off about the Bible. He said somehow the Bible was pro-slavery. I’m really shy. I’m not really someone to, like, stir up anything. But all of a sudden I just blurted out, ‘That’s bull!’ ”
As she and several other students walked out of the auditorium, Savage noticed them leaving and called them “pansies.”
The story has now been picked up by FOX News Radio, under the headline "Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens." Today, that article was one of the top links at Drudge Report, which suggests the story will get bigger very soon.
It's too bad the Christian kids left the hall. They're supposed to be journalists, and we in the journalism biz must often dirty our ears with others' distasteful utterances. While Savage might have profitably avoided the use of profanities (which, when used to describe allegedly sacred documents, tend to make believers less than receptive to whatever might come next), what he said was materially true, and good journalism students of any creed ought to know it. And inquisitive Christians also ought to know the standard argument against Dan's point: That Jesus's "new covenant" rendered the Old Testament's "ceremonial law" meaningless (making it okay for humans to eat shellfish and pork) but left in place the Old Testament's "moral laws," which include prohibitions against homosexuality. And smart people in general should know the counter-argument to that counter-argument, which is: Really? Stoning women to death isn't a moral issue?
That's where believers and doubters tend to part ways, which is a shame. Apparently these journalism students are too delicate to get even that far.
Watch the allegedly objectionable bits of Savage's address AFTER THE JUMP ...
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You know, it really bugs me when a well-meaning individual like Dan Savage, and a well-meaning, GENTLE audience, like the Christian high school kids, can't even connect for one speech, whether they agree or not.
I find both sides somewhat at fault here. Dan doesn't understand where these kids are coming from, and seems to assume they are either enlightened individuals (they are not, yet) or are bigoted rednecks banging a Bible. They are not. Dan also needs to get some of his Christian interpretation of the Bible corrected. Christians incorrectly interpreted the Bible to support segregation and slavery. That doesn't make the Bible "bu¡¡$it". It makes the interpreters guilty. I think Dan would have made more progress if he'd taken a more academic and humble approach.
Thanks anyway, Dan. Hope you learned something here. And I doubt any one of those kids were nasty to you on your way out.
Posted by: tomjck22112 | Apr 28, 2012 4:03:49 PM
Towns bring in Dean (I Think that's his last name) to do anti gay assemblies, maybe less now then before. I wonder if these kids would walk out during that. He talks about the bible condemning this and that
Who care, next story
Posted by: GeorgeM | Apr 28, 2012 4:03:57 PM
And btw, all that nasty stuff Dan says the Bible supports is actually from the Old Testament, and there are direct, precise passages in the New Testament disqualifying all of that crazy stoning and shellfish stuff. I'm shocked Dan used such a lame argument.
Posted by: tomjck22112 | Apr 28, 2012 4:06:19 PM
PAUL R - you may not care about religion, or find it interesting, but it cares about you. Rather, it's practitioners do. And some of them don't like you at all, and are willing to go to great lengths to demonize you, which justifies denying rights and worse.
Posted by: TJ | Apr 28, 2012 4:07:15 PM
It's mind-boggling to see people defend the Bible here. It's unabashedly and undeniably pro slavery. Sure, slavery was normal back then, so it's not surprising. But don't deny it and try to explain it away. There is no way to "interpret" it any other way. The pro slavery passages are some of the more obvious stuff in the Bible. If anything it means that it's outdated, ancient document that shouldn't be taken seriously.
Posted by: Steve | Apr 28, 2012 4:13:31 PM
@tomjck22112
There are pro slavery statements from Jesus himself! Jesus told slaves to obey their masters. Paul was in favor of slavery too. But it's not surprising that Christians don't actually know their book.
Posted by: Steve | Apr 28, 2012 4:15:09 PM
@TOMJCK22112: I don't think you carefully read the article. Savage specifically cited the NEW Testament to demonstrate the Bible's approving posture toward slavery.
"It is for slaves to submit to their masters in everything; to satisfy their wants and not to be refractory." Titus 2:9. And so on.
Christians have happily 'interpreted away' this and other problematic passages (again, from the NEW Testament) and Savage's point was that it is beyond time to start 'interpreting away' the homophobic bits (in Corinthians, etc) as well. But as I stated above, he did his message a disservice by becoming the story himself.
Posted by: Rick | Apr 28, 2012 4:19:36 PM
"Mary" we know you're a Fundie Troll."
David, I checked your website. You seem like a very talented and accomplished individual. I'll look into your work. But I would think that someone of your age and sophistication would be able to tell a "troll" from someone who is trying hard to shed the vestiges of homophobia and develop pro-gay values.
Posted by: mary | Apr 28, 2012 4:28:56 PM
Oh please. Did he say any of those kids was an abomination? Did he suggest that their "lifestyle" should be criminalized? Did he suggest that they were mentally impaired? Did he compare them to child molesters? Did he call them deviants? Did he suggest that christianity shouldn't be mentioned in school? Did he suggest that christians should be deported? Did he say that Christians kill themselves because they are sinners? Did he blame the parents of those dead kids for not instilling proper values in them??? Well every one of those things and WORSE has been said by CHRISTIANS about gay people, even gay children. So spare me the fainting couch bit by a bunch of know it all teenagers who were inspired by bigoted, hate filled mentors. Does anybody really think this was some spontaneous act? Do you really think these kids were damaged by what Dan said, or did they take the opportunity to AGAIN inflict their hate filled ideology on the rest of the world and scream FOUL when somebody has the audacity to push back. And shame on you idiotic queens who think you're being clever by taking sides with them. You're nothing but tools being used to continue to dig graves that these same little punks will gladly push our gay children into at the drop of the hat. Dan is 100% right, and the people who used these children to push their hatred of gay kids should have their teaching privileges revoked.
Posted by: Gaylib | Apr 28, 2012 4:33:28 PM
Bad choice for a speaker. Savage is known for vulgar and irreverent tirades that really make him sound unhinged and vicious. Why would anyone invite him to speak to children, high school or otherwise? He is a lightening rod whose brand of foul language is not appropriate for underage audiences. Now, he is fodder for those who say anti-bullying efforts are anti-Christian, vulgar, sex-focused, and profane. Savage is irresponsible and reckless.
Posted by: Malcolm | Apr 28, 2012 4:34:53 PM
Oh thank you Dan Savage. Call them all out - they've never actually read the damn thing!
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/october/survey-bible-reading-liberal.html
Survey: Frequent Bible Reading Can Turn You Liberal
What a surprising survey says about how reading the Bible frequently can turn you liberal (in some ways).
Posted by: Kyle Carlson | Apr 28, 2012 4:35:18 PM
I've said it of Savage before and I'll say it again: What a man. What a madly sexy man.
Posted by: DannyEastVillage | Apr 28, 2012 4:37:25 PM
"Mary" I've been following your postings in here. They speak for themselves.
Posted by: David Ehrenstein | Apr 28, 2012 4:39:35 PM
@ GAYLIB: SING OUT LOUISE!!!
Posted by: David Ehrenstein | Apr 28, 2012 4:40:33 PM
And, I might add, that no one is addressing the elephant in the room which is at the core of Dans message: that Christians have a history of bigoted theology when it comes to minority ir oppressed groups. And that in addition to being homobigots, the vast majority of white Christians are racist as well.
Posted by: Gaylib | Apr 28, 2012 4:42:05 PM
Daniel, your comment is reminiscent of the figure in Dickens who comes (hat in hand) to the master plaintively asking, "Please Sir, may I have some more?"
As long as your attitude prevails we will be fighting for ourselves on THEIR TERMS. Enough. It's gone on way too long and IT HASN'T WORKED.
Meanwhile, how is it going to hurt evangelical Christian kids to get the cultural reality underlying much the Bible rubbed in their faces?
Posted by: DannyEastVillage | Apr 28, 2012 4:42:34 PM
Someone please point out a SINGLE thing Dan Savage said that isn't absolutely 100% correct.
Considering that those who were "offended" went to a speech by Dan Savage of their own volition, what did they expect? They heard some "dirty words"? Boo effing Hoo! Call me when Dan Savage starts trying to enact legislation that takes away their rights THEN we'll talk!
For once in their precious little lives someone didn't coddle them about their precious faith, said things about the Bible and religion that are absolutely true and they needed to hear.
Posted by: Caliban | Apr 28, 2012 4:46:30 PM
It seems to me that to the extent he was using impolite language, he was venting rather than communicating. Reading the article I felt a certain schadenfreude. Such displays are fun and look bad, but can Dan Savage's behaviour here actually change the course of the history of gay rights? I think not. He was being self-indulgent and I can't see what it actually hurts other than his reputation. He already has a reputation for behaviour like this (did those students forsee a chance to make a dramatic walk-out?). I don't see what this changes.
Posted by: NullNaught | Apr 28, 2012 4:48:46 PM
@Gaylib: what you call 'clever' I call tactical.
Savage's message about Biblical interpretation was precisely spot on. The problem was that he made himself, the messenger, the story by calling kids offensive names and throwing profanity at their religion. He became a distraction from the conversation that should have taken place: eradicating Biblical justifications for homophobia.
In the end both sides assume their usual battle positions, and we're none the better for it.
Posted by: Rick | Apr 28, 2012 4:54:37 PM
Those kids planned to walk out if Dan Savage said anything about the Bible or Christianity. That was way too quick for that many people to walk out, considering he hadn't even said anything remotely offensive by the time the first people started leaving.
Posted by: Ben | Apr 28, 2012 4:58:24 PM
They don't teach you to think critically in religious institutions. I know this because I attended a 'liberal' Pentecostal college. Get to big for your britches and they get rid of you. Bravo Dan Savage. I like his take no prisoners style.
Posted by: Daniel | Apr 28, 2012 5:00:23 PM
Yay! Caliban.
This is my favorite internet response to the pansy assed amongst our own: What did he say which was not true?
Posted by: David Hearn | Apr 28, 2012 5:06:08 PM
@ GASYLIB : You are beautiful. Dan savage you are beautiful.
Those poor little apprentice haters should have stayed and learned the truth about their brain washing from Savage.
Walking out of what was an accurate rebuttal of bigoted propaganda did not help the kids understand what is going on on "faith" societies.
Posted by: JackFkTwist | Apr 28, 2012 5:06:42 PM
Gaylib - GFY, seriously. Spare us the Democratic Underground rote. Otay?
Posted by: David Hearn | Apr 28, 2012 5:07:51 PM
Correction:
That was for : GAYLIB.
Apologies.
Posted by: JackFkTwist | Apr 28, 2012 5:09:00 PM