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Teen Christians Vs. Dan Savage At Student Journalism Conference: VIDEO

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A great brouhaha is stirring in the nation's conservative publications over comments Dan Savage made two weeks ago while addressing the JEA/NSPA National High School Journalism Convention. The convention was entitled "Journalism On The Edge," which you'd think would prep participants for a certain amount of edginess in the presentations. Alas, the audience was not prepared for edginess. Savage's subject was to be bullying, and he got right to the point:

The Bible. We'll just talk about the Bible for a second. People often point out that they can't help it -- they can't help with the anti-gay bullying, because it says right there in Leviticus, it says right there in Timothy, it says right there in Romans, that being gay is wrong.

We can learn to ignore the bulls**t in the Bible about gay people. The same way, the same way we have learned to ignore the bulls**t in the Bible about shellfish, about slavery, about dinner, about farming, about menstruation, about virginity, about masturbation. We ignore bulls**t in the Bible about all sorts of things. The Bible is a radically pro-slavery document. Slave owners waved Bibles over their heads during the Civil War and justified it. The shortest book in the New Testament is a letter from Paul to a Christian slave owner about owning his Christian slave. And Paul doesn't say "Christians don't own people." Paul talks about how Christians own people. 

We ignore what the Bible says about slavery, because the Bible got slavery wrong. Tim -- uh, Sam Harris, in A Letter To A Christian Nation, points out that the Bible got the easiest moral question that humanity has ever faced wrong. Slavery. What're the odds that the Bible got something as complicated as human sexuality wrong? One hundred percent. 

The Bible says that if your daughter's not a virgin on her wedding night -- if a woman isn't a virgin on her wedding night, she shall be dragged to her father's doorstep and stoned to death. Callista Gingrich lives. And there is no effort to amend state constitutions to make it legal to stone women to death on their wedding night if they're not virgins. At least not yet. We don't know where the GOP is going these days.

People are dying because people can't clear this one last hurdle. They can't get past this one last thing in the Bible about homosexuality. 

Um, one other thing I wanna talk about is -- [chuckles] -- so, you can tell the Bible guys in the hall that they can come back now, because I'm done beating up the Bible. It's funny, as someone who's on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible, how pansy-assed some people react when you push back. 

I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. But. I have a right to defend myself. And to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-gay bigotry by pointing to the Bible, and insisting we must live by the code of Leviticus on this one issue and no other. 

As Savage noted, Christian students in the thousands-strong audience fled from his address, first in a trickle, and then in a great flood. The exodus began right around the time Savage started talking about slavery. Very soon, the offended students were talking to the press. From the rightist rag Citizen Link:

A 17-year-old from California who was attending with half a dozen other students from her high school yearbook staff, was one of several students to walk out in the middle of Savage’s speech.

“The first thing he told the audience was, ‘I hope you’re all using birth control!’ ” she recalled. Then “he said there are people using the Bible as an excuse for gay bullying, because it says in Leviticus and Romans that being gay is wrong. Right after that, he said we can ignore all the ‘B.S.’ in the Bible.

“I was thinking, ‘This is not going a good direction at all,’ Then he started going off about the Bible. He said somehow the Bible was pro-slavery. I’m really shy. I’m not really someone to, like, stir up anything. But all of a sudden I just blurted out, ‘That’s bull!’ ”

As she and several other students walked out of the auditorium, Savage noticed them leaving and called them “pansies.”

The story has now been picked up by FOX News Radio, under the headline "Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens." Today, that article was one of the top links at Drudge Report, which suggests the story will get bigger very soon.

It's too bad the Christian kids left the hall. They're supposed to be journalists, and we in the journalism biz must often dirty our ears with others' distasteful utterances. While Savage might have profitably avoided the use of profanities (which, when used to describe allegedly sacred documents, tend to make believers less than receptive to whatever might come next), what he said was materially true, and good journalism students of any creed ought to know it. And inquisitive Christians also ought to know the standard argument against Dan's point: That Jesus's "new covenant" rendered the Old Testament's "ceremonial law" meaningless (making it okay for humans to eat shellfish and pork) but left in place the Old Testament's "moral laws," which include prohibitions against homosexuality. And smart people in general should know the counter-argument to that counter-argument, which is: Really? Stoning women to death isn't a moral issue?

That's where believers and doubters tend to part ways, which is a shame. Apparently these journalism students are too delicate to get even that far.

Watch the allegedly objectionable bits of Savage's address AFTER THE JUMP ...

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Comments

  1. I have NOT ONE CRITICAL WORD for Dan Savage on this one. It's about time people started pointing out that the emperor has no clothes. Good for you Dan. You're on the right side of history.

    Posted by: Tone | Apr 28, 2012 6:19:40 PM


  2. Wow, leave it to a post about gay, bullying, and religion to bring out all the trolls and woo-ew-woo psychos.

    Once again, Dan Savage wins and wins BIG. Kudos to Dan (and intelligence).

    Posted by: Oliver | Apr 28, 2012 6:42:32 PM


  3. Maybe the way Dan said what he said wasn't the most tactical way to say things. And maybe he should not have used the term "pansy-assed" to describe the kids who walked out. It does come awfully close to bullying and name-calling. But they sure seemed to be shrinking violets, leaving when he said the Bible was pro-slavery. It is pro-slavery. Jesus never criticized slavery. Paul told slaves to obey their masters. That is in the New Testament.

    Dan spoke the truth about things the Bible says - inconvenient things that people have decided no longer apply. And the Bible has been used by so many "Christian" leaders to condemn LGBT people and to justify discrimination and to declare that we are by our nature disordered.

    Maybe Dan could have been more diplomatic. But Dan was not calling for the kids to be condemned, or damned, or discriminated against. He was not saying that god hates them, or that they were going to hell, or that no one, not even the church should be surprised when people reacted violently against them, like Ratzinger said. Or that they should not be married or that they do emotional violence to the children they raise. He has not been leading any campaigns against their rights.

    He was pointing out how selective some Christians are in using certain verses of the Bible to condemn LGBT people while overlooking other passages. He was saying that we need to stop using a selective reading of the Bible to condemn and bully and oppress LGBT students.

    The student that called his comments about the Bible being pro-slavery "bull" seems not to have read the Bible. I wonder how many of the students that left have read the whole Bible.

    Dan was invited to address these students. Someone invited him and surely many if not all of the students knew of his reputation before he appeared.

    I also wonder what the full context of the talk was. Did he say more before this clip and after it? What did he say? It is too easy to take some snippets to condemn his message without knowing the whole message he delivered - as was done with the sermon of Jeremiah Wright when Obama was running for president.

    Posted by: john patrick | Apr 28, 2012 6:47:24 PM


  4. Well, God forbid the little zombies straying from the FOX News model: only hear exactly what you want to hear, make up the rest, and then report it like you are the victim. It's seems to work (for a certain segement of the low IQ/previously brainwashed population).

    Posted by: Tarc | Apr 28, 2012 6:57:55 PM


  5. DannyEastVillage and Artie, thank you for your kind words.

    There seems to be some confusion about the goal of Dan's speech. I would think that his goal would be to try to soften these students' opposition to gay rights or get them to accept that gay rights are inevitable. But it seems as if his goal is to convince them that the Bible in bunk. The first goal he could possibly have some success in achieving. The second goal is utopian and is likely to HARM gay rights. It's unnecessary to essentially ask these students to change their theology - Dan is not even a theologian who can offer them an alternative. His goals are secular, and the students know this. To them it will look as if their religion is being attacked so that Dan can score political victories. Exoect intense hostility when using this approach.

    A better strategy would be to explain to these kids that American law has never been based on the Bible, that there are too many different versions of the Bible and scholars don't all agree on what they mean. Ask the students to think of how a theocracy might work even if it were run by two groups that are extremely close theologically (like, say Baptist and Pentecostal.) The history of Fundamentalism is filled with people calling each other "Judas-Goat" and "pseudo-Fundamentalist." Students could be made to see that a government made up of "God-fearing" people, even all of them evangelical, wouldn't be able to agree on Biblically based laws.

    The second approach leaves students free to believe what they want, but more likely to be tolerant in terms of public policy.

    Posted by: mary | Apr 28, 2012 7:02:42 PM


  6. on the one hand, using a insult like "pansy-assed" is both ironic, in the homophobic and bullying senses of the word and the uproar overshadows his message and undermines his mission of persuasion

    on the other hand, he's right, the students are cowardly (which is how he should have phrased it) to intellectually examine their own holy book. also, the controversy is free pr for his message, which will now reach more people online

    Posted by: gomez | Apr 28, 2012 7:24:24 PM


  7. The convention was entitled "Journalism On The Edge," No one should be upset or offended. I wonder if those students also walked out of "Gore Fest 5" because it was too gory?

    What dweebs!

    Posted by: Lance | Apr 28, 2012 7:31:10 PM


  8. God that felt good to watch.

    You could see the moment where he is about to move on and then decides to call out the people who walked out. I'm so glad he did.

    Also, bravo to all the cheering kids. The times are changing and the youth are leading the way more and more.

    Posted by: IAN F | Apr 28, 2012 7:34:29 PM


  9. Nuts!!! Totally nuts!! I love Dan Savage. I'm *slightly* torn on this one, only because I went to Christian schools up until high school.

    When I imagine myself at 14-15, with my faith still strong, I think I and probably most of the Christian kids that left would probably leave the room if we heard "The Bible" and "Bulls*t" in the same sentence, regardless of what he said or what he meant. That combination alone would be enough to get me thinking, "This is of the devil!!" and leave the room.

    The context of HOW he used those two words together is important, but I think that got lost on the ones who chose not to stay.

    But having said all that -- it's Dan Savage. He has a column, a podcast, a youtube channel, and a show on MTV. Most of those kids know who he is, how he is, and have a vague idea of what to expect from him.

    Anyone look at the comments on that fox site? Jeez.

    Posted by: antisaint | Apr 28, 2012 7:37:58 PM


  10. Well written, Brandon.

    Posted by: KW | Apr 28, 2012 7:48:34 PM


  11. People should stop putting religion on a pedestal as if we can't criticize it.

    Posted by: Francis | Apr 28, 2012 7:54:07 PM


  12. It's unbelievable to me how many apologists are commenting on here criticizing Dan Savage for standing up for YOUR rights, for YOUR life. Time to go back to school, losers. Apparently you didn't learn that an oppressed population is NEVER 'GIVEN' their rights; THEY FIGHT FOR THEM. Get a f#$%ing clue!

    Posted by: wtf | Apr 28, 2012 7:57:16 PM


  13. Most of the kids cheered. I talked to a kid who was at the event and said it wasn't more than one/two dozen journalists/students who walked out. This is all right-wing fabrication. Dan Savage's MTV show is a hit, and he's huge with teens and young adults. Right-wing anti-gays can't handle this and are trying to flip the script, create a view that they are the victims, and garner sympathy on that basis. It's pathetic, and their guilt trips are not going to work.

    It's GOOD to see that our community, and especially Dan, in this case, is finally ready to fight back against the injustices done against us. We are NOT going to take this verbal abuse from so-called Christians anymore, nor should we. Dan didn't even attack all Christians, or really even Christianity in general. This is COMPLETE fabrication and we cannot allow the right-wingers to dictate the terms of this war. And yes, we are at WAR with social conservatives (not Christians, since there *is* a difference between Christianity and Christianism). Don't ever believe otherwise.

    Posted by: Francis | Apr 28, 2012 8:05:42 PM


  14. Some of these posts seem oblivious to the concerted action being taken by the Right against us. Even the report yesterday of the Catholics/Anglicans/Jews/Islamics all cooperating to defeat our rights to equality seem to be going over some of your heads.

    Dan Savage's remarks were a straight forward retort to the hocus-pocus of desert inspired ancient story telling......all of it with the usual high dramatics, eg trumpets knocking down walls of cities etc.

    We need to do less naval gazing on the appropriateness of his stand......and a hell of a lot more organizing to rebut the gathering storm being prepared by the churches and the evangelicals against same sex marriage, against repealing DOMA, and against ENDA.
    And if we don't cop on to the current real-politique, then we will have an extreme right wing SCOTUS for a generation.........and all that within four years.

    Posted by: JackFkTwist | Apr 28, 2012 8:08:29 PM


  15. There is nothing he said that was wrong. The bible is a pro-slavery document, written by men at a time when slavery was fully accepted by society. Thankfully, we've evolved since then. It's time to fully "evolve" on glbt issues, as well. It's basic human decency.

    People who are religious are usually very prickly about their religion, though, and don't want to hear anything that goes against the grain or what they've accepted as what their religion stands for, even those who are otherwise highly intelligent and trained in critical thinking.

    It's cognitive dissonance at its worst.

    Posted by: R | Apr 28, 2012 8:21:29 PM


  16. I agree with WTF! The time for being Nice is long Over!

    Posted by: disgusted american | Apr 28, 2012 8:30:00 PM


  17. Unsurprisingly to me, a lot of the "pro-Bible" people here have utterly missed the point. Dan Savage didn't do a speech on "why the Bible is BS" at all, and to the degree he made the point that specific points in the Bible are BS it was in direct response to what he said in the beginning.

    Christians use the Bible as the sole excuse why they attack gay people, especially gay kids. "The Bible says it, and that's all there is to it. I can't help myself. I have to be hateful." And yet, on all these other issues, Christians are perfectly happy to have a different perspective, that that was a different time, that the rules have changed, that we know better now.

    There is just as much New Testament justification for setting aside the Levitical prohibitions on homosexual love as there is on eating pork or shellfish or ending slavery. And people aren't willing to see that.

    And that IS BS. It's not following the Bible, it's using the Bible to justify bigotry. And Dan's right, when people use the Bible to bash him, he has a right to defend himself.

    Posted by: Lymis | Apr 28, 2012 8:34:58 PM


  18. Dan Savage is gross. He makes me want to puke. Who the hell is this guy anyway speaking for me as a gay man? Gag and throwing up now.

    Posted by: Alan | Apr 28, 2012 8:48:50 PM


  19. @LYMIS :
    Nor are people willing to concede that David and Jonathan were gay( "with a love that passeth the love of women") , as were Naomi and Ruth("Entreat me not to leave thee")..........and what about Jesus and John, ("the disciple Jesus loved").

    Did you say 'selective' reading ?
    These Christians are selectively brainwashed with the man/shellfish nonsense......ACT UP Dan Savage !

    Posted by: JackFkTwist | Apr 28, 2012 8:50:42 PM


  20. Dan had the opportunity to do a lot of good there. He blew it. Previous commenters have done an excellent job of explaining how he blew it. Christians cannot be painted with a broad brush any more than gay people can be (and don't forget the overlap - Gay Christians). He had an opportunity to appeal to the conservative Christian teens' sense of fairness and respect, and instead he used obscenities and an approach that was guaranteed to feed the "victim" mentality that many conservative Christians thrive on.

    This event was a setback for gay rights. We'll continue to make progress, but despite this, not because of this.

    Posted by: Seattle Mike | Apr 28, 2012 9:00:23 PM


  21. @ alan pls gtfo and stfu we don't need you here making a mess because you have poor social skills and a terrible grasp of what actually took place, troll

    Posted by: epic | Apr 28, 2012 9:01:08 PM


  22. Those so-called Christian journalists that ran away aren't journalists, they want to be propagandists and their actions illustrate the ugly future more than any thing.

    Posted by: Polyboy | Apr 28, 2012 9:11:05 PM


  23. @ WTF: Yeah, we're FIGHTING in a lot of different arenas. One of them being the court of public opinion. And we don't do ourselves favors by calling kids pansy-a**ed or labeling their religion with profanities. Those tactics might make us feel self-satisfaction (returning fire with fire), but that's a shallow (non)victory. It gives Fox News and Citizen Link something to get all hysterical about, and then we get hysterical about their hysteria...and so on.

    The worst part is that Savage's entirely correct takedown of Biblically justified homophobia has been obscured by this stupid sideshow. It's a sad irony that his speech would have been MUCH more disarming if he hadn't delivered a minor faux controversy to Fox News on a platter.

    Posted by: Rick | Apr 28, 2012 9:22:50 PM


  24. What a complete bigot!!! Liberals like this are total hypocrites. Where outside the Christian world do gays have rights? Jesus welcomed everyone. This hypocrite attacks on the Bible are ignorant misconceptions. He was supposed to speak about tolerance and what does he do?

    Time after time, the most bigoted, intolerant, narrow-minded culture over and over ends up being the liberal progressives. Have at it bigots!!!!

    Posted by: Boss | Apr 28, 2012 9:38:40 PM


  25. The sad thing about the Bible is that it can't be amended like the Constitution. Slavery is a good example. It makes itself more and more irrelevant as the world changes.

    Posted by: Simon | Apr 28, 2012 9:39:42 PM


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