Minneapolis Archbishop John Nienstedt Told Mother: Reject Your Gay Son or Burn in Hell

Nienstedt

Saint Paul and Minneapolis Archbishop John Nienstedt, the guy who spearheaded a mass mailing in 2010 of 400,000 anti-gay DVDs, and created a special "marriage prayer" which he asked the state's Catholics to recite during Mass in an effort to create support for the anti-gay amendment on Minnesota's ballot in November, also told the mother of a gay son that she should reject him or risk burning in hell, according to a recently-surfaced letter.

NienstedtWrote Nienstedt:

I write to inform you that the teaching of the Catholic Church on homosexuality,a s described in paragraphs 2357 and 2358 and 2359  of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is rooted in Scripture and based on the Natural Moral Law. It, therefore, shares in God’s revelation to us. Catholics are bound in conscience to believe this teaching. Those who do not cannot consider themselves to be Catholic and ought not to participate in the sacramental life of the Church.

Indeed, some might find this is a hard saying by many of Jesus’ teachings were likewise received as such. I urge you to reconsider the position that you expressed in your letter. Your eternal salvation may well depend upon a conversation of heart on this topic.

Comments

  1. Chris says

    Perry, eternal salvation is Heaven and risking it is risking to go to Hell. Benedict has reaffirmed Hell’s existence. Don’t try to be smart, this bishop is a terrible person.

  2. Max says

    Perry – “Your eternal salvation may well depend upon a conversation of heart on this topic” clearly means that he believes she will not receive “eternal salvation” unless she changes her mind. That means hell.

  3. PAUL B. says

    Why does anyone pay any attention to the catholic churchs’ teachings? Not to mention the obviously silly outfits…they’re also repressed, depressed & oppressed…and need guidance with color coordination. I mean to say, only an idiot who can’t think for himself would wear total pink from head to toe. Can’t they mix it up a little or is that “thinking for yourself” just over the top for them?

  4. Hungry Blade says

    Always when I read these clowns like Nienstedt spouting off this non-sense, I think of Gaddafi with that knife up his ass, ripping out his intestines. And I wonder if it ever occurs to them to fear the same fate.

  5. says

    Aint it a shame that being Catholic does not make you immune from having gay children or family members?

    As much as Catholic-inspired bigotry doesn’t affect me as a non-Catholic, anyone who’s ever spent any time doing LGBT Outreach work, particularly with youth, knows that their prejudice and hypocritical piety have an incredibly negative impact on the LGBT people who are unfortunately born into families that attend these churches and are, for some unfathomable reason, literal slaves to whatever their priests say.

    Homosexuality doesn’t break apart families. Religious ideologies like the one this pig is espousing do.

  6. bambinoitaliano says

    I thought it’s the evil one that get burn in hell? Now, who’s the devil that tell the mother who abandon the son? Bibles are like guns to the religious fanatics. Often misuse and misfire and ended up self inflicting.

  7. JJ says

    @Yupp: “He has every right to believe what’s in the letter. As long as he doesn’t try to force it on those who don’t belong to his church.”

    As we have every right to criticize him or denounce him or shun him or campaign against his prosperity. What’s your point?

  8. Yupp says

    Young Catholic dudes and girls (and a lot of older ones), gay and straight, who are in the “Catholic world” because they’re in Catholic schools (lots of places in the U.S. where those are just better schools than the public ones), or just continue practicing Catholicism out of habit, don’t care what the priests, bishops, Pope, etc, have to say anymore. It has no effect on them whatsoever.

  9. Yupp says

    My point, JJ, is that you and Scumbag Towle better get off your superiority horses, you Protestant dickheads. (Nothing against ALL Protestants, which I am myself now). If you even know how to ride a horse.

  10. says

    @Yupp – as someone who’s actually done volunteer work for LGBT youth for more than a decade, I can tell you that assertion is categorically false. Even if they, the young, know the priests are full of s**t, their parents don’t. Or do, but are too cowardly to ruffle feathers by standing up to them.

  11. Guest says

    *Shrug*

    It’s completely consistent with Catholic teaching, as the archbishop points out. You might as well ask the Grand Mufti of Damascus and expect a different answer. Is the news here that he actually said what the Church openly teaches or what?

  12. Icebloo says

    He should be fired. Of course he won’t be because the Catholic Church enjoys breaking up families and causing misery. If we didn’t have such misery no one would turn to the church so they wouldn’t make any money so it’s in the interests of religions to CAUSE the misery so they can benefit from it financially.

  13. HadenoughBS says

    Dear Most Heartless Archbishop Nienstedt:

    Burn in Hell indeed you worthless piece of Papist Holy Crap!

    With every bad wish, I remain.

    Cordially yours in Christ Almighty,
    Millions of GLBT Human Beings

  14. says

    What is “The Natural Moral Law”? Is it to hate anyone who questions your view of life and your pronouncements?

    And the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Who wrote that one, people like you? Jesus did not write that, because he was not like you.

  15. Icebloo says

    Unbelievably we STILL have gay men and women supporting the Catholic Church & giving them money ! This shows just how STUPID gay people are and it’s one of the reasons we have so few legal rights around the world.

    WAKE UP AND GROW A PAIR !

  16. Caliban says

    With the recent statements by Catholic Bishops and Archbishops across the US I don’t understand why more Catholics don’t switch to the Episcopal church. Isn’t it more or less the same thing without all the silly-@ss business of priests not marrying? (And therefore markedly less kiddie-diddling.) There also seems to be less of the (literally) holier-than-thou attitude whereby the church hierarchy is the go-between for believers and their deity, as if the PRIEST decides whether or not you’re going to hell.

    Not that I believe in any of it, but since religion IS a choice, if you choose to believe why not choose one that’s less of a pain in the @ss?

  17. mikeflower says

    the Catholic Church is a theology in decline. They continue to play second bananna/stooge to the Evangelicals & Mormons.
    The Catholic Church makes it very difficult for someone to request voluntary excommunication. Were it easier, I expect many people would do so as a form of protest.

  18. albertam says

    rooted in Scripture and based on the Natural Moral Law.

    well the root must be rotted and replace with a new planted idea so people can move forward instead of just standing still while the sun passes you bye giving the church only what it needs. you need more then just gods word to grow and move forward, other then the natural more like man made moral laws to grow in a certain way but not your own. id say get your head out of the dirt and look at what your missing if you just stay where you are you might get left behind.

  19. AJ says

    Here we go AGAIN with misleading headlines. He absolutely did not say the words “burn in Hell” in the letter. I know it’s implied, but come on. What is happening to this site lately?!

  20. Yupp says

    Caliban : So many of us were raised in the tribal Catholic-versus-Protestant thing, so it hits deep when one tries to make the actual conversion to Episcopal. One can feel like a turncoat. Very primitive, I know, but…..the fault of both Catholics and Protestants over all those years for pressing that into us. Personally I think it’s time, to keep intellect and civilization alive, for everyone to leave Catholicism (whether it’s for a Protestant church, other Christian church, Eastern religion, or no religion at all).

  21. Caliban says

    Because, AJ, there is no need for anyone else to PUSSYFOOT around the issue just because he did! Did he come out and say she’s going to “burn in hell”? No. Do his words mean EXACTLY that? YES!

    So what’s your f*cking problem?!

  22. albertam says

    i didn’t know the catholic church teaches us bout homosexually. My eternal salvation may well depend upon a conversation of heart on this topic well id better ready for this ride to hell or figuratively speaking of hell. doest the church teach us that we have free will…also. maybe we are here to teach you preachy people bout life other then your traditionally values. there is more to life.

  23. rayrayj says

    Unlike the Catholic Church, homosexuals have existed as long as mankind has existed and wherever mankind has existed. The Catholic church will either evolve on this issue or it will cease to have any influence in developed nations. I’m hoping for the latter.

  24. Bill says

    Actually, I found the archbishop’s letter very informative. There must have been people like him nearly 2000 years ago. No wonder Nero fed them to the lions!

  25. says

    Let’s all grow up and put aside the “rising from the dead lark”, “the water into wine”, turning bread and wine into “body and blood” and the flying of bodies into the sky, as in the ascension and the assumption and the casting out of demons.

    My eternal salvation does not depend of the hate filled gibberish of this farcical excuse for a holy man.

    There is no compassion or love left in the church particularly when it comes to gays; remember not so long ago when they were supposed to love us but hate our sin?
    Well all that hypocritical $**t is gone out the window, this mother is now being told not to love her son;
    The Church never meant that we should be loved, and our sin hated; that was yet another ecclesiastical obfuscation.

    Now all that’s left is a deranged scramble for what little power or influence they have left over the older generation.
    The younger generation recognise them for what they are……..hate filled old bigots still threatening mothers and women.

  26. anon says

    It’s somewhat consistent with Catholic teaching, but not really. Actual beliefs are not subject to scrutiny in the Catholic faith, unlike Protestant theology, only the sacraments. You can be barred from the sacraments for sins, but unless they are unforgivable sins (the seven deadly sins is a start), you can receive absolution and return to the faith after penance. So, the AB is mostly wrong. In fact, lay Catholics are not supposed to “know” theology or assume they know it, which makes mistakes entirely forgivable.

  27. says

    Catholic, Protestant, Roman Catholic…..are you guys serious ?

    Go live in Belfast, Northern Ireland and see your sophistry lived on a daily basis….see your fine distinctions and their consequences.

    What a load of $hit.

  28. Yupp says

    Jack : Whether ANY religion makes ANY sense at all is like….another subject entirely. I understand what you’re saying, but I still think those of us who want to consider being part of a religion can debate the Protestant versus Catholic thing (even though, to you, it’s like discussing who is stronger : Merlin or Harry Potter ?).

  29. Latrice Royale Jr. says

    Why are you guys bitching about how he didn’t say the exact words “burn in hell?” I’m not even Catholic and even I understood what the guy meant in his letter.

    “Your eternal salvation may well depend…” = burning in hell.

    5Gs!

  30. NeverEclipsed81 says

    I could be wrong but I seem to remember something the Pope released about how gay people don’t go to Hell?? It might have been the last Pope.. I remember my grandmother cutting it out of the newspaper.. rolls eyes.

  31. i could go on, but I won't says

    If I got a letter like that I’d frame it and hang it in the hall. A badge of honor to have ticked off his majesty to the point of his taking pen to paper for a personal rebuke.

  32. i could go on, but I won't says

    A second thought: A letter like that should be written on flash paper so that a few minutes after exposure to air it burst into flames. Now THAT would really scare the bejeezus out of a believer.

    It’s all about showmanship.

  33. Dan Cobb says

    How can you have sympathy for a woman who chooses to be a Catholic?! She gets what she deserves. Lie down with dogs and you’ll end up with fleas.

  34. Bingo says

    He’s also wrong as a matter of theology.

    Catholics need to respect church teaching, however difficult that may be when it’s presented by a tool like this, but no one can tell you what the natural law actually is. Each person is capable of discerning that for him/herself. That’s why it’s called the natural law.

  35. PAUL B. says

    @Perry…the “burn in hell” part is the subtext. It’s understood by his reference to
    “eternal salvation”. Is there something about that you don’t understand? Let me know…I’ll clear it up for you.
    My dear old (almost dead…yeah!) catholic dad told me that I wouldn’t be united with the rest of the family in the hereafter as a result of my sexuality…i.e. we’re all going to heaven & your going to hell for all eternity. Bye bye pop…don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out!

  36. Stefan says

    There is a theme in the comment thread about why anyone would remain Catholic if he cares about teachings on sex and sexuality that are actually rational and compassionate. I wanted to offer some thoughts. Leaving a religion is very difficult. Like any relationship, it has incredible inertia. I was lucky to belong to parishes that were/are very gay supportive. Most of the Catholics I’ve known are genuinely good people. And so, as a gay man when I think about leaving and then don’t, I admit to willful blindness about certain parts of the catechism and wishful thinking about the future.

    The best analogy, sadly, is an abusive relationship. Gay people like me (and their families) are abused by the Church, if not directly then by the simple knowledge of being not fully accepted. But we keep thinking of all the good experiences and our communities, and keep thinking that if we just work hard enough then things will get better. It’s tough to admit that about myself, but I know it’s true, and I’m fairly certain that’s the mindset of many other gay Catholics and their families.

    So, when you engage those who are gay and Catholic (or whatever), just remember that most of us are born into and inculcated in our religions in a very powerful way. We know we are Catholic before we even know we are gay. It’s powerful, and it’s hard to just leave behind even in the face of an insurmountable contradiction it poses for our lives.

  37. says

    @ STEFAN :
    There’s nothing quite like self-respect to overcome the inertia of remaining inside the church.

    Your background, my background, is no reason to remain. You must know by now that the whole platitude “Love the sinner not the sin” was a fraud.
    We gays are inherently defective. That’s straight out of the Pope’s mouth. That is what they believe.
    And you are right; it has always been an abusive relationship.

    Please, let’s leave with our dignity and our self respect intact…..we all owe that to ourselves and to each other.

  38. Bob says

    This is the same Nazi Catholic mentality that the Catholic Nazis had, who helped Hitler murder millions of Jews, homosexuals and other religious minorities in Hitlers Nazi Germany. Now they are doing it again, working to destroy children and families and minorities in the name of God. The New Catholic Inquisition has started to destroy anybody they do not like or agree with, the same as they did to the witches and others they claimed were bad. Truth is, it is the Catholics who are evil monsters making life hell for the people on earth. Your life in in danger if you fail to stop these religious mad men in the Catholic Church. Hitlers in drag with gold crosses.

  39. JJ says

    @Yupp: “My point, JJ, is that you and Scumbag Towle better get off your superiority horses, you Protestant dickheads.”

    Or…what…? You still haven’t made a point. Here’s an example: It really doesn’t take a horse to sit above a moral scripture conceived by people who f*cked their children and sold them into slavery. When someone _aspires_ his whole life to _rise_ to this odious moral standard, I think that’s pretty instructive about his character.

    That’s a point.

    Anyway, I gather from your vaguely threatening tone that you’re in the middle of demonstrating what a treasure of upstanding moral fiber your church has minted. I’ll let you continue. Even if you still can’t make a point of your own, I’m pretty sure you’ll make mine.

  40. Yupp says

    Stefan : Thanks for that. Interesting. To add to that (even though you might have not experienced this directly) there are parts of the world (NYC, Boston, many cities in Ireland, Northern Ireland, the UK) where religion is even more tied in with identity from the time we’re born. In the gay community it’s especially bad (where status-consciousness rules everything) and certain religions are considered superior to others and everyone is categorized. So…YES…changing religion is hard. (And, JackTwist, glad to see how much those on your island have broken away from it).

  41. Yupp says

    Uhh…JJ…if you want me to start listing your Protestant historical horrors versus Catholic achievements I’ll be glad to. (No European, or European-descended person, is superior or inferior because of his religion. I’ll guarantee history proves it).

  42. acorlando says

    I was raised as a Catholic and was excommunicated from the church in 1998 over my vocal protest with respect to the church’s treatment of glbt’s, women and those outside the catholic faith. That was okay, because I felt no desire to “remain in the sacrificial life of the church.”

    Funny thing though, they still mail me and call soliciting for various tithing appeals despite my repeatedly telling them that I am no longer a Catholic.

  43. Yupp says

    Acorlando : Even when you try to leave, the Catholic Church will still consider you Catholic (a lapsed one, but..) and the Gay will consider you Catholic (of inferior intellect).

  44. JohnAGJ says

    @AJ: It’s clear enough from the Archbishop’s letter what he meant. No, what I see as misleading in the title to this post is “Reject Your Gay Son”. The Archbishop doesn’t say that nor imply it. The citations he gives from the Catechism do not say this either. Of course I suppose one could argue that this is a matter of perspective, in that not accepting that your gay son is say in an intimate relationship with another man is tantamount to rejecting them. I guess each person will have to make up their minds on that one.

    @JackFknTwist: That’s how you deal with it, but not everyone who is raised Catholic. I myself choose not to donate a penny to the Church and admittedly rarely go to Mass, but on occasion still do. The Church is more than the Pope and hierarchy. In fact, I still hold to some degree to the sentiments expressed by Evangelical convert Thomas Howard, who would undoubtedly object very strongly to these words being used in this particular case but tough IMO:

    “Rome’s opulence, her political machinations down through the centuries, her tyrannies and hauteur and self-assertiveness, not to mention the Dionysian romp in the Vatican in the Renaissance, what with Borgia popes and catamites and so forth: all of that is bad – very bad. The Catholic Church knows that. Dante, of course, had half of the popes head down in fiery pits in hell. Chaucer, contemporary with the Lollard Wyclif, but himself a loyal Catholic, is merciless – scathing even – in his portraiture of filthy and cynical clergy. St. Thomas More and Erasmus, contemporary with Luther and Calvin, were at least as vitriolic in their condemnation of Roman evils as were the Reformers . . . [But] Israel was not less Israel when she was being wicked . . . The Church is in the same position in its identity as people of God. We have Judas Iscariot, as it were, and Ananias and Sapphira, and other unsavory types amongst us, but we have no warrant to set up shop outside the camp, so to speak . . . Evangelicals, in their just horror at rampant evils in Catholic history, . . . unwittingly place themselves somewhat with the Donatists of the fourth century, who wanted to hive off because of certain evils which they felt were widespread in the Church. Augustine and others held the view that you can’t go that far. You can’t set up shop independently of the lineage of bishops . . . As far as the ancient, orthodox Church was concerned, nobody could split off . . . The problems of the Roman Catholic Church (sin, worldliness, ignorance) are, precisely, the problems of the Church. St. Paul never got out of Corinth before he had all of the above problems. Multiply that small company of Christians by 2000 years and hundreds of millions, and you have what the Catholic Church has to cope with. Furthermore, remember that the poor Catholics aren’t the only ones who have to cope. Anyone who has ever tried to start himself a church has run slap into it all, with a vengeance . . . Worldliness, second-generation apathy, ossification, infidelity, loss of vision, loss of zeal, loss of discipline, jiggery-pokery, heresy – it’s all there.”

    Somewhat contradictory perhaps, despite Howard’s words here I have a more favorable opinion of Protestantism in general but remain largely a Catholic in heart.

  45. rjp3 says

    Perry EVERY Catholic knows that when you do not have eternal salvation – you are punished with burning in Hell.

    They do not mince words with that. In fact if you read the letter — you can better understand they also believe that about Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, G.W. Bush, and every Protestant in America.

  46. rjp3 says

    Caliban — the Catholics are mystical people who believe in Godly Magic that can only flow through God to his Pope then to the Pope’s Priest — they have GOD GIVEN MAGIC that blesses — and without that magic from GOD you burn in hell. Period.

    So leaving the church and joining another religion has the same end result as being a murderer … you go to hell. Period.

    That is how they get and keep them.

  47. Bill says

    Regarding rjp3’s comment, “That is how they get and keep them,” it really was never how they got and kept them. Once established, they got them by encouraging the production of babies (hence the historically large Catholic families), and they kept them not by threats of a mystical Hell, but a real-world demonstration of what it would be like, otherwise known as being burned alive at the stake.

    With burning at the stake now out of fashion, not to mention illegal for some time, their new members consist of children born into Catholic families and some converts (and some of those, possibly a significant number of those, converted to keep a spouse happy). To keep them, they have to reply on family pressure, but that is becoming less and less effective as people have become much more mobile.

    An Archdiocese of Washington web page has some info on it ( http://blog.adw.org/2011/08/number-of-converts-to-catholicism-continuing-to-decline-you-know-what-to-do/ ) – apparently the number of new converts is dropping. So is the number of infants due to declining birth rates.

    If you read the web page just cited, it will go on about what went wrong – no surprise as they are worried about the numbers – but regardless, they are seeing a decline and don’t know what to do about it, and it is the data about the decline that is the interesting part of it.

  48. Bill says

    Regarding rjp3’s comment, “That is how they get and keep them,” it really was never how they got and kept them. Once established, they got them by encouraging the production of babies (hence the historically large Catholic families), and they kept them not by threats of a mystical Hell, but a real-world demonstration of what it would be like, otherwise known as being burned alive at the stake.

    With burning at the stake now out of fashion, not to mention illegal for some time, their new members consist of children born into Catholic families and some converts (and some of those, possibly a significant number of those, converted to keep a spouse happy). To keep them, they have to reply on family pressure, but that is becoming less and less effective as people have become much more mobile.

    An Archdiocese of Washington web page has some info on it ( http://blog.adw.org/2011/08/number-of-converts-to-catholicism-continuing-to-decline-you-know-what-to-do/ ) – apparently the number of new converts is dropping. So is the number of infants due to declining birth rates.

    If you read the web page just cited, it will go on about what went wrong – no surprise as they are worried about the numbers – but regardless, they are seeing a decline and don’t know what to do about it, and it is the data about the decline that is the interesting part of it.

  49. andrew says

    Again with the extremist Fox news type headline. “reject your son or burn in hell”. The bigoted bishop doesn’t suggest the woman “reject” her son and says her salvation “may well” depend on her following Catholic doctrine. Headlines like this do a disservice to the truth.

  50. andrew says

    @Mikeflower: “The Catholic church makes it very difficult for someone to request voluntary excommunication”. WHAT??? If a person doesn’t want to be a Catholic anymore, they just leave/quit. I did and so have millions and millions of others. Hopefully they don’t become Evangelicals/Fundamentalist Protestants or Mormmons or Muslims et al. They are even crazier.

  51. YankeeFan says

    It seems the Archbishop hasn’t read those paragraphs of the Catechism recently. It never says to reject a gay person, actually, paragraph 2358 includes: “They [homosexual persons] must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”

    Hmmmmmm….

    (Of course the other paragraphs say that homosexual ACTS are “intrinsically disordered” and not to be approved AND that homosexual persons are called to chastity…yeah, like that’s fair…)

  52. FunMe says

    His “views” from many centuries ago has now been officially debunked by my straight hero CHRIS KLUWE:

    ” “Well, once again, Chris Kluwe isn’t standing for this nonsense.

    Tell me, Archbishop, Pope, what purpose does the Church serve attempting to influence the affairs of a secular state? The federal benefits under law currently denied gay couples certainly fall under the realm of Caesar, don’t they? No one is forcing the Catholic Church to marry gay couples if that is not the Church’s wish. You can keep the sanctity of Catholic marriage solely between heterosexual couples if you feel that is what’s required (again though, I caution you on the dangers of presumed infallibility). All we are asking is for you to extend the open hand of tolerance instead of the closed fist of fear and hate.

    As American citizens, we respect the right for everyone to practice whichever religion they so choose, including the right to not practice one at all. Haven’t we learned enough from the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the Talibans of the world? What does it benefit the Church to attempt to influence secular policy in this country, especially when that influence is to deny basic human rights to others? Will you now assume Caesar’s throne, grasping the transitory ephemera of worldly power and control, while forsaking the eternal kingdom of Heaven?”

  53. Yupp says

    I said the same thing Kluwe said, but that Gay Protestant “JJ” started yelling at me. Will he criticize Kluwe? It all depends on Kluwe’s religion/ethnicity/lineage.

  54. millerbeach says

    What about the question Paul asked Jesus? You know, which is the most important of the Ten Commandments? Jesus replied, love God my Father with all your heart, soul and mind (or words to that effect). Jesus went on to say the second most important Commandment is to (here it is, read carefully) LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE MY FATHER. That’s it. The end, no exclusion of gay people. EVERYONE means EVERYONE. I have been attending Mass nearly all my life, very involved in my church, and never have I seen Paragraph whatever in Church teachings. When I first saw the word “paragraph”, I thought he was going to quote “Paragraph 185″, in which Nazi Germany outlaws homosexuality. My, amazing how similar these two are…how very sad a leader of the church cannot recognize the teachings of Jesus Christ. You may be an Archbishop, but you sure ain’t God. You are a mere mortal, and your soul, sir, will be doomed unless YOU have a change of heart and a change of hate. You may be Archbishop, but apparently, you do not have Jesus in your heart. You cannot have Jesus in your heart as long as you harbor so much hatred.

  55. The Inveterate Lurker says

    @ Stefan, your own rational realizations should now enable you to reject the indoctrination and the brainwashing. I tried to do the extreme opposite by joining a Benedictine abbey, and it served as the jolt I needed to finally extricate myself. It was hard, but you must try!

  56. ratbastard says

    Yupp is 100% correct. VERY few American Catholics take archaic church teachings seriously. There is really no Catholic parallel to Evangelical pentecostal Protestantism. This is also true not just of young Catholics.

  57. ratbastard says

    Catholicism outside North America, especially in 3rd world countries and even many Spanish speaking and influenced countries, tends to be far more rigid and conservative than American Catholicism, and many of the people in these places likewise tend to be very socially conservative regarding stuff like homosexuality.

    @JackFNTwist,

    I know Ireland of course use to be like what I described above, as did other European countries like Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc., But I’m assuming this is really no longer the case. Am I assuming wrong?

  58. Diogenes Arktos says

    “They [homosexual persons] must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”

    Who was it who floated the idea that people who were claiming rights which weren’t appropriately theirs shouldn’t be surprised when they are the target of violence?

    Shall we say that this is the same person who just denied that People Like Us were not subject to “unjust discrimination”?

  59. jamal49 says

    Dear Archie Bishop: please give us the exact chapter and verses where Jesus made pronouncements on homosexuality.

    What’s that, Archie? Huh? What? I can’t hear you! Oh!

    Yes, Archie, that’s right! Jesus H. Christ, Son O’God, said nothing about homosexuality. Absolutely nothing.

    Now, Archie, please sit down and shut up.

    Thank you.

  60. brassyskts says

    @Caliban, the Episcopal church has some of the same entrenched biases as does the Catholic, it’s just not handed down from on high (via the Pope), but instead reflects privilege inherent in society.

  61. Diogenes Arkots says

    @several: I would hope that the “Faux News” style headline is based on two pieces of evidence not linked to in this post: the bishop’s op-ed piece and the mother’s letter.

    @Brassyskts: I much prefer dealing with “God’s frozen chosen” and its theological openness than the “WE alone speak for God – WE can never even appear to be wrong” mentality of the Vatican (the Religious Right and the Mormons).

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