1. Paul R says

    It seems like the filmmaker could have sought out a few guys who are a bit happier. Or maybe these guys should move out of New York because most make it sound like hell.

  2. Really says

    What did he do, put out a call for 21-year-old self-loathers?

    When I first came out, I used to not like queeny guys. Then I met a few and became more comfortable with myself as a person.

    These kids will learn.

  3. Tom says

    Oh my god, they are all so insufferable and self-hating, except for Nico, but even he’s pushing it. The gay community is what you make of it. If you live in a city of 8 million and you’re only interacting with people you don’t like, it’s your own fault, no one else’s. One guy says “If you say ‘gay guys,’ an image pops in my head that I’m not fond of.” If you say that to me, I think of me and my gay friends. Why on earth would you associate your own attributes with things you don’t like?

  4. MJ says

    Calm down people…this video has nothing to do with the participants exercising “self-hate”…Interesting how we insist on labeling these opinions simply because some of their comments are actually exposing the shallowness of much of the gay community…It isn’t “self-loathing” to expect more from our “community” and it also isn’t a sin to have different opinions about the manner in which the “community” expresses itself and whom it includes in its criteria.

  5. Fenrox says

    This is basically exactly what 20’s were like here.

    You need to realize that girls go through this all the time. Girls have this all the time, where they hate other girls, where they try to distance themselves from “girly” cultures while embracing another version of girly culture.

  6. JonB says

    These aren’t twenty-somethings, they are 20-23 year olds. There is a Huge difference. In a few years these kids will look back on what they are saying and laugh at themselves. They probably all go to NYU or Columbia, interact mainly with girls, and spend a lot of time at hipster bars where they dance to unknown Brooklyn bands and “ironic” counter culture 80’s-90’s music and think anything modern or mainstream is lacking in some way. When suddenly at 25 all of their lady friends start to settle down and finding boys who don’t like other boys, they will start going out to find boys of their own. I doubt at that point they will eschew labels for the sake of intellectual integrity. They will be drinking at gay bars and reminiscing about their pretentious youths.

    Cut them some slack. Many of us have been there.

  7. Perry says

    These guys are still young and still not yet comfortable in their own skin. In time they will learn to love who they are and accept themselves, others and the gay community which is there to support them. I lived in NYC in my late 20s to early 30s and I thought the community was very supportive. It is what you make out of it. You find all types of personalities and groups each one with it’s stereotypical characteristics. It’s true that everyone needs to find their niche group and set of friends for a strong support system. But I can understand where some of them are coming from. It will just take time and experience for them to “come into their own.”

  8. Jack says

    @MJ – Don’t bother. Many people on here cannot deal with the fact that people have different concepts of sexual orientation, identity, and community. I’ve been looked down on for not having been to a gay bar in over 5 years, as if it’s some requirement that gays must always hang out with gays. Doesn’t seem to register that my friends are my friends, and most of my friends happen to be straight, not intentionally, but because that’s how things went. In any event, as always, it’s not worth really giving a damn what others think about how you should express yourself and live your life. That goes equally for the attacked “feminine” guys and the maligned “straight-acting” guys (to the extent those labels actually mean anything substantive).

    Furthermore, I think that many of the things that are causing people here to talk about “self hating” are simply honest reflections by these young men about what has caused them to make the choices they did in the past, and what they do now. I actually found it fascinating.

  9. Markt says

    I left 20 something behind a long time ago – still I identified with some of what was said there. You can dismiss it if you like, but I think the film-maker has probably diagnosed the achilles heel in the gay community. Everyone above who said that they are sure the film-maker found just this group of self-haters can’t be believed. A struggle with self-hate goes with being a minority – especially since our other status comes from something as primitive as sexual urges – our struggle will be harder in its way.
    Everyone focuses on the comments about masculinity and lack thereof but more profound aspects of gay interaction were addressed there. People don’t care whether a person acts masculine or not once they get to know them.

  10. Francis says

    Nico is like, honestly, the only one who isn’t completely damaged, jaded, hateful, and f*cked up, and he’s the only one where I felt comfortable watching. The other boys gave off this incredibly tense vibe. I think this filmmaker intentionally sought out gay men that aren’t in the “in” of the gay community. These guys are young, a couple said they just came out, none of them but Nico is really attractive, they obviously have a distaste towards what they consider modern gay society, at least in NYC. So their experiences in my eyes are from the POV of gay men who don’t fit in with the community.

    Their problem is that they blame the community for they not fitting in, rather than not realizing that their problems in not fitting in are based on their own damage and preconceptions. And again, only one of these guys seem able to move beyond those stereotypes to see the good in anyone, regardless of if they’re gay, regardless of if they’re more fem.

    What’s even more ridiculous is all those other guys talking down feminine gay men, or calling the gay community caricatures, are very much fem themselves and obviously gay plus believe in those same stereotypes that they consider offensive. Really pathetic.

  11. Yupp says

    I didn’t watch, but are they really “New Yorkers” or are they just guys visiting New York? I’ll say it again : Real New Yorkers, the ones born here, are awesome. If you weren’t born here (and just moved here because you thought it would make you “cool”) you’ll always be an wannabe (usually vicious) outsider (like Belonsky- lol).

  12. Francis says

    Interaction with the “gay community” is what one makes it. I have a different experience than these guys. I live in Richmond, VA. Very big gay community in a moderate-politically minded city, in a very red state. In Richmond, we tend to be more close knit. In a city like NYC, where lack of gay acceptance is less of an overall issue, and there are more avenues where a person can find themselves and what they are and want they want in life, there is not going to be as much of a community, there is going to be more branching out. Nico said that early in the video and he’s 100% right. As a result, there is less interaction with differing groups within the gay community in a city like NYC. Plus NYC’s fast-paced style, the pressures of being trendy and high-society, the pressures of existing in NYC and making a living……..I can understand why it’s hard to develop relationships. And develop yourself as a person. And I totally get how there is the representation of the gay community that gay men are “supposed” to dress fashionable, be cute, be in shape, be sexy, youthfulness, being bright and witty, and this view of us has been elevated above all views and has created some that chase to become this perfect gay man. I get it. There are a lot of vapid gay men out there as a result.

    But this isn’t unique to the gay community. Which is what most of those boys and some commenters here fail to grasp. It’s more unique to being trendy, and it’s especially unique to New York. It just so happens gay culture and “trendy” culture have interconnected in many ways. But it’s still two separate entities! It’s about finding your place in the community instead or rejecting the entire community and rejecting gay men, because there are certain aspects of mainstream gay culture you don’t feel comfortable in.

  13. Francis says

    Yupp, NYC has a very low hate crime rate given the populous of gay persons living in the city. Yes, more than Iowa, but there are more opportunities for hate crimes in NYC as well.

    Iowa is a decently gay-friendly state, though. Very impressive for a Midwestern state. Statistically hate crimes are significantly more likely *on average* in the South and Mountain West and cities on the coasts and upper Midwest have generally lower hate crime rates compared to the population of gays residing in the cities. That would mean Washington DC, Miami, Atlanta, Austin, there are cities where hate crimes are major issues. Detroit has a very bad hate crime rate but the crime rate there is awful in general. Chicago has a bad crime rate, but low hate crime rate.

    Since several states don’t even report anti-gay hate crimes, we don’t know the full numbers but all studies show where there is social conservatism, there are hate crimes.

  14. Markt says

    Francis – Thanks for pointing out the differences between NYC and smaller cities. I think you’re right that is part of the source of the internal friction described in the video.

  15. Dan E says

    “If you weren’t born here (and just moved here because you thought it would make you “cool”) you’ll always be an wannabe (usually vicious) outsider (like Belonsky- lol)”

    You’re a real gem, aren’t you?

  16. Dave says

    The younger generation is clearly rejecting the campaign to feminize gay men. They aren’t self-hating. They are self-loving. They accept themselves as men because they are men. I’m 25 and I can tell you that these guys represent.

    In the 50s-80s, some damaged and self-hating gay men would refer to one another as “she” or “girl.” They didn’t really believe that they were men and their speech reflected that. These guys have no need for that nonsense. In the 90s, a small group of damaged gay males created “LGBT” which lumps gay men with transsexuals. You’ll note that not one of these guys refers to himself as LGBT.

    The era of self-debasement and feminization of gay men is coming to an end. That is not to say that there won’t be authentic feminine gay men. They will exist and should be treated equally and with respect. But the idea that effeminacy is a norm to be encouraged is dead.

  17. Yupp says

    Dave : There’s nothing wrong with being genuinely “effeminate” (in all the variations and degrees of that) but the triouble with out-of-town gay men who move to NYC is that they insist you HAVE to act effeminate, or else you’re somehow bad or wrong (you’ll definitely never get hired at any gay business, in any case). Try being one of those guys who appears heterosexual (according to other gay men who say “I thought you were straight”) and go to a place like the NYC Gay Center and see the cold-shoulders and dirty looks you get. And THAT’S what’s really unfair.

  18. Trey says

    I’m 22 and just moved to NY from southern Maryland. I don’t think these guys understand how great it is to live in an area with so many different people. Sure, there are some gay guys I didn’t hit it off with, but I’ve made some great friends here. Very appreciative of living in the city.

  19. Francis says

    Yupp, you’re right, poverty is also a major factor, but most poverty stricken inner-cities also tend to be socially conservative on the issue of homosexuality, at least. They both sort of feed off one another, or at least are two individual reasons that partly/fully make up the overall reason why inner-cities tend to be more homophobic and hence, have more hate crime incidents.

    My point still stands, though. Social conservatism begets hatred for gays which leads to hate crimes. Poverty itself doesn’t make someone hate gays.

    MarkT—-You’re welcome!

  20. says

    beautifully ironic. gays boys who fit what most would deem to be “gay stereotypes” complain, cluelesslys about said stereotypes.

    dear boys, you’re young. you’re saying the same things i used to say when I was a gay Newbie, before I had my @ss handed to me by older and wiser LGBT people who’d been Out for wayyyy longer than me.

    they need a dose of legit queer history. they need to read The Velvet Rage and realize they’re all still stuck in Stage 2.

    and rather than railing against Lady Gaga, what can that kid specifically say that HE has proactively done to give support and encouragement and hope to LGBT youth?

    if you’re gay in NYC and cannot find “your scene” it says nothing about “other gays” and everything about you.

    NYC doesn’t have a “gay scene” – it has DOZENS, and they exist in more than just bars and nightclubs.

    it’s pure confirmation bias.

    ever heard the term “I don’t want what I haven’t got”?
    you can’t complain that you don’t feel “a part of something” when your mindset each day is to not want to be a part of something.

    hey kids, call me in 10 years and see if you feel the same way.

    but at least this video and the responses to it will hopefully wake these boys up, and the others out there like them who are, gallingly, choosing to be miserable.

    no empowered and confident gay man uses the term “straight-acting”.

    btw, “masculinity” is like “Cool” – to be it, one must first not want others to think that they *are* it.

  21. says

    @Charles, it’s a video made by a guy featuring his tiny circle of friends.

    groupthink nonsense.

    incidentally, the “i’m into guys” excuse for not saying GAY is a no-win.

    you can choose to care about how people label or perceive you, or you can choose not to.

    one way means you’ll spend your whole life apologizing for who you are, or don’t want to be, and the other means you life freely.

    it’s amazing that people choose the former.

    and anyone who says that “gays in NYC demand that you act effeminate” only proves me right – that’s an excuse you tell yourself for your own self-annexing from the communities.

    NYC has so many gay men and so many gay scenes and such diversity that if you cannot find your crew, you’re just languishing miserably in your own self-imposed exile.

    why on earth anyone would move to NYC to do that is beyond me….

  22. says

    dear Dave, wrong.

    there is no such thing as a cultural feminization of gay men. that’s nonsense that insecure homosexuals who live in fear of What Straight Men Think say in order to, cowardly, deflect bigotry away from themselves and onto others.

    ten bucks says your 25 year old @ss can’t put a face to your comments.

    learn at least something from the “effeminate gays” you clearly have learned to take such issue with – emulate their refusal to worry and live in fear of what straight bigots think.

    until you do that, you’re no man at all. just one more boy who blames others for his own lack of courage.

    but you’re young. if you allow yourself the room to grow then you will.

    The Velvet Rage. Stage 2. Get beyond it.

  23. Rick says

    Good observations,David.

    The tired old culture of effeminacy was a product of oppression. As oppression lifts and as “straight” men become more open to and desirous of emotional intimacy with other men rather than with women, the stigma attached to homosexuality will abate…..and young men who find themselves attracted to other young men will no longer be pressured by society to consider themselves less than masculine for being so attracted, will not therefore internalize that idea……and will therefore not feel compelled to act the part of a less-than-masculine individual.

    Sexual expression will be regarded as an integral PART of masculinity and the male experience rather than something outside it and alien to it.

    This process is going to take some time–one does not eradicate the accumulated cultural detritus of generations in one single generation–but it is happening.

    Some observed that some of these young men who express distaste for effeminacy are effeminate themselves…..and to some extent some of them are…..but one has to remember that the ill effects of a homophobic culture have impacted all of us to some extent, even if we are not entirely conscious of it….and some of the less conscious aspects of effeminate behavior will have been instilled at a very young age and are difficult to rid onesself of.

    But this is a snapshot of a culture in transition and change is messy. The important thing is that the culture of effeminacy has lost its legitimacy with the younger generation and even if they are not able to overcome its lingering effects completely, they are moving in the right direction and see it for the artificial construct and self-destructive force that it is.

    In time, you will be unable to distinguish a young man’s sexual orientation by observing his behavior….a natural masculinity will be the norm for all…..and that will represent real progress.

  24. Rick says

    And by the way, those of you who are attacking these young men are only doing so because they are speaking truths that are painful to you because they are so real.

    The truth is that NOBODY finds effeminate men sexy–NOBODY. Certainly incluging effeminate men themselves.

    When have you EVER seen an ad that read “No masculine guys please” (I am sure we have all seen thousands that specified No fems please). When have you ever heard anybody say how turned on they were by sissies? When, even on this site, have you seen any effeminate man held up as a sex symbol? That’s right, you never have. When have you ever seen a big queen in the centerfold of a gay porn magazine? That’s right, never.

    As one of the young men observed in the film “Masculine guys are attracted to other masculine guys”…….”and feminine guys are also attracted to masculine guys”.

    Effeminacy is attractive to NOBODY and never will be.

    So please don’t lie and pretend that it is. You all know the truth. Yes you do.

  25. Yupp says

    LittleKiwi : Wrong, again. You’re a Canadian. You don’t know. You might have visited NYC, but it has ONE gay scene (not many, as you claim). And it does demand you behave effeminately, or…just forget being part of it: you will NOT be hired at a gay business, nor invited to any gay functions (from birthday parties to fundraisers). I’ve been quite shocked at the people who were excluded from certain events just because they didn’t have the gay “accent” or just, somehow or other, appear “heterosexual” to most gay men (whatever THAT means).

  26. Derrick from Philly says

    Rick, if there’s ever a mad man shooting people in a New York City urban mall you’d better hope there’s a Gay male make-up artist/salesman there to save your azz.

  27. says

    I lived in NYC for five years. Sorry, sugar.

    you’re full of s**t and you know it. these are the excuses you tell yourself in order to remain Annexed. Congrats.

    even a cursory trip to NYC would clue one in to the reality that a great many gay establishments, from bars to restos to clubs hire STRAIGHT MALES TO WORK THERE.


  28. Rick says

    “most of the “fem” guys i know are in LTRs”

    i.e. after being rejected by everybody on a Saturday night because nobody is into sissies, they go home to the apartment they share and bump “pu$$ies” together while listening to a compilation of “diva” sountracks–Judy, Bette, Barbra, Cher–and then go cry themselves to sleep in a bitter rage…..

  29. QJ201 says

    Bitches, please. I came out at 15 in the 80’s and yes while the “fem guys” at first made me uncomfortable…it was the “flamboyant” “queens” that taught me about self respect, standing up for myself…and warning me that older guys were gonna try and tap my twink ass and not to let them (which not coincidentally helped keep me HIV negative).

  30. scotsyank says

    The soup of comments here regarding this video; some loathsome, some insightful, some cruel, some clever, a few moronic, several compassionate, and one perfectly articulate and narcissistic- this one, mine. In short, a snapshot of ‘gay guys’.

  31. Wow says

    I’ve never been able to understand why gay men would think effeminate behavior is in any way attractive…sure, effeminate gay men can be funny in a court jester kind of way, but I’m talking strictly about sexual attraction. It feeds into the whole “if I wanted a woman, I’d get a real one.” It’s pretty basic. If you are attractive to men, then you want someone who exhibits male characteristics. Everyone says it, femmy, masculine, young, old…everybody. It’s basic.

  32. will b says

    I’m 46; been out since I was 19. This is EXACTLY what we all went through, just these kids have a public forum to express their doubts and disappointments. They’re young. And when you’re young, you think you’ve invented sexuality and creativity. They seem like smart boys. They’ll get it. I do have to laugh a little though. A little advice: Remember those who came before you. We made the world you live in today, a world where it’s free to OPENLY ask these questions.

  33. Francis says

    Gender identity and sexual orientation are two different concepts. It’s really not hard to understand. Physical sex=gender. If someone has a penis, their physical sex is male. Being fem doesn’t make them female, it makes them a man with characteristics society has labeled feminine. So it should come as no surprise that some gay men find fem gay men very attractive……….they’re men. And in my experience, fem gays tend to be overall better people than those that attack them. Actually, scratch that. They are definitely better people than those who attack them. And generally have to deal with lack of acceptance in BOTH the straight and non-straight world. It’s not a coincidence most of the suicides we’ve seen, most of the hate crimes, have been against feminine gay men.

    The guy Cole, who is mostly insufferable, made one very correct point, that also Nico made later in the video—–a LOT of non-heterosexual men feel this need to put down feminine gays, put down trans persons, and go out of their way to throw this hyper-masculine/macho, we need to act MANLY and like MEN and ONLY men card out there. It’s another reason why many of the hate crimes we do see committed, are committed by repressed non-heterosexual men themselves. It’s another reason why our community can be so fractured.

    And it’s so blatantly insecure and disgusting. It’s men who like men attacking other men who like men, because they don’t like being associated with the former group who like men, as they do. It’s attacking your own people based on arbitrary societal notions. And so many gay men fall right into the trap. And come up with BS terms such as “straight acting” to run away from these notions that they believe because they’re self-hating and homophobic.

    I’m not too sexually attracted to feminine gay men, but let me tell you guys who hate them something—–without fem gays, you would NOT be in the position to denigrate them right now. Not at all. The acceptance we’ve gained in society is largely because of THEM.

  34. Francis says

    Now, I am going to say something about SOME fem gays—-they’re fake. And I DO see the arguments made about why many, straight and gay, are annoyed by the very obnoxious fem gays. The screaming. The crying. The desperation for attention. The obsession with sex. The vapidness. And the problem there is that some fem gay men think being fem means/gives them a licence to act like an immature 13 year old girl, like it’s adorable to be a caricature. And we all know what I’m talking about.

    The problem is, that they act this way because of the stereotype that HOMOPHOBIC GAY MEN AND HOMOPHOBIC STRAIGHTS continue to perpetuate. That gay=acting like a 13 year old girl. Then reject gay culture and gay as an identity as a result. If you’re young, and you’re fem, and you see that being the adorable pocket gay will get you attention, you’re going to take that route. If you’re young, and you’re coming into your sexuality, you don’t really have much reference in terms of what it means to be gay and contact with other gays your age, and what you see as gay according to other gays is acting like an overly feminine caricature, you’re going to go that route.

    It’s ridiculous and very dense of some masculine gays to ridicule fem gays, when first of all, most gay men have traits that society has deemed feminine, and most gay men give off gay vibes that are clear to anyone who has a decent gaydar. If I saw Rick in the street, I’m sure I’d know he was gay after 20 seconds.

    And it’s ridiculous and very dense of some masculine gays to ridicule fem gays when you go OUT OF YOUR WAY to disassociate with the gay community. Or make statements such as “I mostly like straight guys” “I’m straight acting” “I’m not in the scene, I’m attracted to men but I’m not gay”. If you want a better representation of gay men, in mainstream society and for gay youth, then stand up and be counted. The way I see it, it’s the fem gays who actually accept themselves as gay. The problem some of them have is what they think it means to be gay. And that being gay encompasses their entire identity.

    But at least they accept themselves as gay. And embrace it. Where are the masculine gays attacking these fem gays doing? You’re worried more about appearances than actually standing up for your own community and embracing your homosexuality. And that’s what’s really pathetic.

  35. Francis says

    Lastly, do you know how insane some of you sound? Like, you, RICK. Do you realize you’re not healthy? It’s honestly so disgusting to see others victimizing individuals that they’ve helped create, and victimizing individuals that, at the end of the day, are one of us. I mean, there is no such thing as straight-acting. I know so many straight men who have MANY feminine traits. I know fem straight men. We all do. So that’s the entirely ridiculous part. You cannot act a sexual orientation that you’re not. Being straight does not=masculine.

    And the sad thing is, in my circle of straight friends I’ve never had any of them care whether or not they appeared feminine or masculine. Yes, there are many extremely insecure, misogynistic straight boys. But so many who are just cool with who they are, secure, and cool with who others are. They don’t act in any way and they don’t put a label on their actions.

    It’s so sad to watch. The community I love sometimes feel so broken but that’s what homophobia does. Honestly, Kiwi, this is why I love you, because you are one of the few people who seem to actually see this stupidity unfolding and have the strength to call it for what it is.

    Sorry for the long posts, but this is bulls**t and we need to start dealing with our damage as acceptance continues to increase socially and we gain legal rights. Now that things are starting to get better in the outside world, we need to start healing our own world.

  36. chris says

    YUPP, you are clearly an idiot. NYC is and has always been what it is because of its immigrants. I’m curious what you do to add to the cultural relevance of the city. Most of the “famous” New Yorkers came from elsewhere originally.

  37. Yupp says

    Cultural relevance? In the past only, Chris. (Capote and Warhol and Cole Porter and…..yes, I could go on and on). Newcomer gays to NYC now have nothing to add except to pretend they are somehow cooler than the people in the state they left behind. No talent, not even any original thinking. But what makes you think I’m talking about “cultural relevance”? I’m talking about very simple things, like working for the ASPCA when NYC gay-newcomers are animal abusers. I’m talking about helping the homeless when NYC gay-newcomers try to cause harm to them (as long as they aren’t caught). And on and on…

  38. says

    the b.s. claim that “NYC only hires effeminate men to work in gay establishments” is a load of hooey.

    now, if your “friend(s)” didnt’ get hired at a bar and want to pretend that it’s because “they’re too masculine” that’s a lovely (albeit useless) like you can tell yourself. the truth? i dunno. maybe they’re ugly and boring.

    but, Yupp, your comments are utter nonsense.

    btw, effeminacy-haters, would you describe the guys in this video as being particularly “masculine”? if so, based on what criteria?

    specifics, please.

    *elegant curtsy*

  39. says

    i’ve bartended in NYC. with mostly-straight bartenders. in a gay bar.

    Yupp, you’re full of s**t. but that’s to be expected.

    just once i’d love for one of “you guys” to put a face to your comments.

    alas, it never happens.

    if you need to make up strawmen excuses for your own failings in life, keep it up. won’t make your own life better, and will in no way make the lives of the targets of your misery any worse.

    you’re drinking poison and waiting for its effects to work on others..

    won’t happen.

  40. says

    i’m a gay men. i date, and socialize, with other gay men who enjoy gay men.

    if i wanted to date a guy who “acted straight” i’d hack off this lovely uncut canadian member i’ve been blessed with and become a straight girl.

  41. Yupp says

    And that’s OKAY to be fixated on those issues in particular, I guess, but….in the U.S. and NYC those issues are so much more complicated and shades-of-gray than you in your coddled life could ever realize.

  42. Yupp says

    And I love how the Kiwi thinks his (faraway) opinions and “conclusions” about NYC hold any merit when he won’t even state what religion (if any) he was raised in, nor what ethnicity he is.

  43. says

    i was raised in the united church of canada. and if you want to see my ethnicity, you can click on my name and see my blog.

    i’m scots, btw. caucasian.

    but i love how you move goalposts. proves me, and everyone else, right.

    lived in NYC for nearly 5 years. still spend a lot of time there each year. yay, work visas.

    i get it, though. anonymous trolls need to try to convince others of the lies they tell themselves to make it through each day.

    congrats to your continued life in the online closet

  44. Yupp says

    And Kiwi, you’re as much in the online closet as anyone. No one is “real” on the internet. Anyone can make a fake character, a fake blog, fake computer-graphics and everything else. The ONLY thing that counts online is ones’ stated opinion which others will agree with or disagree with according to their own experiences (or just because of what they PREFER to believe).

  45. Francis says

    Yupp, all you’ve done in your about 4 months as a regular here is attack posters. That’s pretty much what you do. So I find it very inappropriate for you to go in on Kiwi, call him fake, call him out of touch, say his opinions aren’t representative of what’s currently occurring in the States because he lives in Canada. What have you presented that disproves anything Kiwi has to say wrong? Where are the solutions you are proposing for these issues in/for the gay community?

  46. Yupp says

    Francis : What are you talking about ? I compliment people. I DO attack more, yes, because I see more horrible posters out there/here. But….what are you saying the kiwi is proposing as a solution? And a solution that I’m rejecting? Maybe I don’t propose any solution, because I don’t act like I’m a great sage who knows every solution (I’ve already said there’s nothing wrong with being effeminate, if that’s who you genuinely are. And that everyone should just respect everyone no matter how he acts).

  47. Yupp says

    And, Francis, I know how complicated NYC is, with it’s varied competing ethnicities and religions, and, yes, the hostility between natives and newcomers, and how that all plays into the gay-versus-straight and feminine-versus-masculine topics. Those from easy upper-middle-class all-white places like Vermont and most Canadian cities don’t understand these things.

  48. GBM says

    Selections from “How To Be Gay” by David Halperin:

    “Ever since the 1970s… gay men have been drawing self-serving generational comparisons between well-adjusted gay people in their teens and twenties, who have no need of gay culture, and all those older queens who are fanatically attached to it”

    “Young queers fit easily into youth culture, we are told; they don’t like being labeled, they don’t feel the need for a separate, distinct social world, and they don’t identify with gay culture. And a good thing, too, I might add, because the social costs of insisting on your differences from normal people are exorbitant when you have no choice but to integrate yourself into heterosexual society–because substantive gay alternatives to the straight world no longer exist, now that the urban infrastructures of gay life have been largely dismantled…. What, after all, does such a denial indicate, if not that straight society is actually a good deal less accommodating of queer kids, especially queer kids who want to proclaim their difference from straight kids, than we are sometimes led to believe?”

    “Corresponding to the perennial disavowal of the importance of gay identity is the constant denial, especially on the part of gay men, of the importance of gay sex… Gay kids these days don’t feel a political urge to manifest their sexuality. They feel comfortable in their sexuality. They find themselves more or less accepted everywhere they go. So why do they keep killing themselves when they get outed?”

  49. says

    don’t need to. I’m Out, honeybun. Keep up being closeted and pretending that the reason nobody wants to bone you is because you’re, uh, “too masculine”

    i get it. you’re so ugly you couldn’t get f***ed if you fell @ss-first onto a c*ck factor. but you pretend it’s because you’re “too masc”

    sure 😉

  50. ribedia says

    You can tell these guys are young when they say things like “All gay guys do this…” OR “Gay guys are like this…” That’s like saying all white people act like this…They are drumming up the same B.S. that the straight community paints the gay community with.

    As they get older, they will realize there are plenty of gay guys that live in the country or the suburbs who don’t like clubbing and live a quiet life and hate Lady Gaga and Britney and don’t care about fashion or designer sheets.

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