07/29/2005
A new measure on Maine's November ballot would repeal that state's newly enacted gay rights laws. Said the Christian leader who got the initiative on the ballot: "Praise the Lord." As if God had something to do with the hatred among mere mortals.
Posted 11:14 AM EST by Andy Towle in Elsewhere | Permalink
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i keep thinking clear heads and rationale will prevail when i read (or hear of) stories like this one and the torching of the mobile home (below this post). but the fact of the matter is, these aren't rational people. they believe they are speaking and acting in accordance with "god". they are only ones with a direct line to the Almighty and that, in and of itself, is a whole 'nother scary topic. sooner or later, we are going to have to start fighting or playing dirty, i think. relying on our wits and using science as a basis for explanations -instead of religion- is getting us nowhere... and that is even more frightening to me.
i know it's not all "doom and gloom" but WE ARE UNDER FIRE. gays need a Larry Kramer for the new millennium; someone who is passionate and angry. personally, i think Christianity is what we should target as it is the biggest roadblock to our rights. that is not to say i think it is evil but i believe religion is doing more harm than good at present.
Posted by: Brian | Jul 29, 2005 12:22:25 PM
Every time I am called a sinner, every time I am told it's a choice - every time someone says "Don't be ridiculous, just because their beliefs are different it doesn't mean that they are going to round you up and put you in a concentration camp," I keep thinking of the part AFTER we are allegedly (and I say allegedly, because some people think that part in Leviticus is just for Levite priests) - allegedly called an abomination in the Bible - the put to death part - and think to myself - well, you know, they selectively believe in the Bible anyway - perhaps they'll skip that part and just leave me with no marriage and being an abomination.
But somehow I STILL keep waking myself up screaming. Strange, isn't it?
Posted by: david | Jul 29, 2005 12:22:40 PM
News like this makes me sick. I am ashamed of these people, and I'm ashamed of those here in California trying to do the same thing!
Posted by: Roy | Jul 29, 2005 12:40:13 PM
Target Christianity? Yeah, that'll be real successful. That'll bring mainstream America to our side.
Posted by: Mitch | Jul 29, 2005 2:25:26 PM
"...I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love until you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye
I believe you can't control or choose your sexuality
I believe that trust is more important than monogamy
I believe your most attractive features are your heart and soul
I believe that family is worth more than money or gold..."
Sigh. If things have to get a little worse before they get a whole lot better, I'll deal. But I'm giving racists, bigots, religious zealots and homophobes the benefit of the doubt. I wish people could all just wake up and say, "Oh, they're just gay, that's all. That's awesome."
Posted by: Rob | Jul 29, 2005 2:26:10 PM
Do you think God loves his power hungry, media whoring children more than his others?
Posted by: stan | Jul 29, 2005 3:04:29 PM
It's like rappers who give thanks to God after winning a Grammy, or athletes who thank God after winning a championship. Who the hell would assume that the Almighty gives a crap about hip-hop or sports?
Posted by: Malcontent | Jul 29, 2005 3:10:06 PM
Or when someone doesn't die in a horrific accident and says "God was looking out for me" or something like that...
...but not the 15 other people who died, got maimed, etc.
I read a beautiful essay with a theme that described how the author only went to church in a little pathetic building. She wasn't talking about the quality of the people per se, but the actual palpable fear she felt by entering a grand cathedral - the hubris that something like architecture could impress God...
Posted by: david | Jul 29, 2005 3:21:32 PM
the god i know loves all and jesus was his son amongest persecuters.we have been around always and always will be,bigots as fallwell need there bible to ease there own shortcomings. nuff said.
Posted by: george | Jul 30, 2005 11:35:31 AM
You guys rock.
Posted by: Rob | Jul 30, 2005 2:28:41 PM
In the united states, religion in its entirety is just too dominant to take on, with the intent of combatting the entire scope of its influence.
Instead, we have to pick our fights and find allies. The united church is one such ally. There are many, many roman catholics for example that are quite socially liberal in their views and/or that take papal authority with a bag of salt (grains have long since proven to be insufficient).
The bible is a horrendously contradictory document when conceived as being a 'whole'.
There are many elements in the new testament for example that are, if not affirmative, than amenable to being used to defend basic human rights which can include gays.
If nothing else, we could point out that if god is omniscient, then trully, 'god makes people gay'...
Posted by: Peter | Jul 30, 2005 4:59:49 PM
kudos to rob for quoting savage garden -- it's still my favorite group!
the contradiction in christianity boggles my mind. how is it that a religion that allegedly teaches love for humanity is so full of hatred? in addition, the bible has been used to justify slavery. the bible has also been used to deny women equal rights. so i am puzzled as to why people of color and women seek salvation in such a religion?
no we shouldn't attack christianity's absurdness head on. but i think every chance we get, we should quote other parts of the bible that trivialize women and people of color. i'd like to see how jerry falwell, tom delay, and the rest of the right defend the bible on that one.
Posted by: tribecatexan | Jul 31, 2005 2:44:09 AM
For the longest time I tried to grasp why these so-called “Christians” behave and think in the ways that they do; so out of step with modernity and disconnected from reality. My conclusion is that their use of religion is far different from the average person’s use of religion. Fundamentalists use religion as a crutch, substituting “faith” in place of emotional and rational maturity. “Faith” and “Fear” are interchangeable in these people, faith quells the fear, fear drives them to faith, and so on. Absence of personal knowledge, suspicion of those who are different from themselves and personal insecurity and self doubt further fosters their all consuming paranoia, deepening their descent into devout religious doctrine. This vicious, self-perpetuating cycle, over time, radicalizes them. Like heroine addicts in need of a fix, these fundamentalists seek out other emotionally stunted and like mined individuals from whom they can slowly draw their emotional “fix.” Once gathered, these people build a rigid and encouraging environment where individual expression is squelched and apoplectic, foaming at the mouth fanaticism is continuously incited. Fundamentalism is a form or emotional vampirism and since greater and greater personal expressions of faith are required to keep this emotional house of cards in tact, they export their emotional neediness into the community seeking out attention and looking for ways to feed their religious addiction. I think this is ultimately the reason that they try to impose their radial agenda onto the nation, to get attention for their emotional neediness. These people would rather act childishly and live in fear than experience real adulthood.
So how do we convince these fanatics that they’re a bunch of emotionally needy, out of touch with reality, whackos that need to get over “it,” grow-up and leave us alone? We can’t. Honestly, it’s a waste of time to try. Let me explain.
These people cannot be convinced of the error in their ways. They are so completely indoctrinated, so emotionally co-dependant and so completely self deluded that any attempt to influence or get them to alter their interpretation of religion will fail. Their radical approach to religious faith conveniently excuses them from having to interpret or reconcile their deeply held views by declaring a permanent moratorium on the questioning of their so-called biblical teachings. To question the bible is to defy the will of God. This leaves us with only one option; we have to “due unto them” as they are “doing unto us.” While I loath the “politics of personal destruction” era that these radicals have ushered in, I’m enough of a pragmatist to realize that, unfortunately, when you live in Rome, you have to do as the Romans do. Like it or not, the Fundamentalist Christians have set the playing field. Either we play on their turf, using their rules and accept nothing less that total and utter annihilation of their movement or we are doomed to live under their yolk of oppression. We cannot afford to take the high road any longer. Trying to stay above the fray, at least in this country, has left us further behind than we were 6 years ago. Keep in mind; the Gay Rights movement began in the 1950’s here in the US. We, as a community really need to ask ourselves how, if we started the Gay Rights movement, have we fallen so far behind other countries including our closest neighbor to the north, Canada? The answer is painfully clear. In trying to appease the Religious Right, we have allowed them to set the agenda. This was a big mistake. We are now forced to play by their rules. And since we no longer have an alternative, it’s time to take off the gloves and go on the offensive. It’s time to see these religious fanatics as fanatics and not devoutly committed to their religion. As for the support of the rest of America, they will react to us as they always have, nervously friendly and tenuously supportive. Worrying about disenfranchising our support is an illusion. We don’t have any support. American’s will agree to our equality if we can seize control of the message and turn it back onto the Christian Zealots. Trust me, it’s not just our community that they’re after. Politically destroying them and exposing the Dominionists, as the seditious, un-American hypocritical bigots that they really are might actually be far more helpful to the perception of our community and our cause for equality than "begging at the doorstep" has proven to be.
Posted by: Robert In WeHo | Jul 31, 2005 5:23:25 AM
Thank You Robert. Very well said. I unfortunately agree that it's time to quit saying please and thank you to these religious and political zealots. We must expose their hypocrisy. The key is to educate and inform people...get them to think and question these Philistines.
Posted by: vinnysfo | Jul 31, 2005 4:48:32 PM
A well argued but angry post Robert In Weho, but that's just what we need:
to get angry, and political. And fast.
Posted by: Peter | Jul 31, 2005 7:06:55 PM
I think it is easy to express extreme positions - easy but unhelpful. What is the difference between Robert in Weho and Fred Phelps? If you demand tolerance, you must show some.
Evangelicals don't own the franchise for codependency. Many of them, I note, do not even 'foam at the mouth'. Some of them, however, do understand how to acquire power and how to deploy it. Mr. Rove is generally pretty good at this. Would you like to be like Rove? Would you really? Do you win your point by assuming the worst qualities of your opponent?
Posted by: Baz | Jul 31, 2005 9:07:37 PM
Baz, while I respect your opinion, continuing to do the same things we've been doing is no longer a viable option; it isn't working and we’re rapidly backsliding.
First, I'm not an extremist, I am angry, damn angry about the constant, vicious and vindictive assault upon our community, our civil rights and most of all having to constantly defend our very right to exist, but I'm not an extremist. No one questions the religious zealots right to exist and I think that's the problem, someone needs to. There is a huge difference between our struggle to achieve equal recognition under the law and their self-righteous crusade of hate and discrimination justified by their warped and intellectually fraudulent misinterpretations of biblical scripture. The direct damage that's being done by these zealots to gay and lesbian people in communities across our nation is obscene. That's what makes me angry.
Secondly, defending ourselves in this fight to the death, which we didn’t start, does not make lesser people or corrupt or sense of purpose. Not standing up for ourselves by fighting back would make us lesser people. Demanding an end to the open war being waged upon our community does not turn us into the same kind of people we are defending ourselves against, it shows just the opposite. Fighting to discredit and expose Fred Phelps as a bigot and hate monger does not make me Fred Phelps, even if highly aggressive tactics are the only option. When I argue that “we must destroy their movement or be destroyed,” note that I am talking about their political and religious based social movement, not Christianity as a whole. I have no beef with spiritual Christians who understand that the constitutional boundaries allow them to believe as they wish but also respect my right not to believe in the way that they do.
Thirdly, for over 55 years, we've been trying to fit into society, pleasantly standing "hat in hand,” politely asking if we can have equal civil rights to everyone else and masochistically taking the endless stream of vitriolic, hate filled attacks thrust at us. Now, when we were finally beginning to make real progress, these people have decided to change the rules in a hail-Mary attempt to prevent us from gaining real equality and rights under the law in such a way that would exclude even the consideration of those rights forever. It is in their taking of this intractable position, drawing a stark and inflexible and line in the sand and demanding our unconditional surrender and submission to their domination and open discrimination that forces us into an unpleasant and messy fight. They are willing to do what ever they have to accomplish their which forces us into replying in kind. You have to understand that there is no negotiation or compromise possible with these people; they’re not going to politely agree to disagree with us. It is their rigid intransigence that forces us off of the subject of our civil rights and into a fight over their steadfast opposition. These Dominionists are waging open war on all fronts. We no longer have the option of doing the same thing; they have taken that option off of the table for us. We now have but two choices fight to win or roll over and spend the rest of our lives living back in the closet in fear of being discovered. This is an assault on our basic human rights; the right to live where ever we choose, to be employed without the fear of termination due to our sexual orientation, to obtain medical treatment, to raise our children and even our right to openly congregate with each other publicly. Our community’s push for the equal right of marriage is being used as an excuse to launch a full scale counter assault with the intent of erasing any and all of our legal and/or civil rights.
Don’t believe me? Check out the Constitutional amendment that the Dominionists are pushing to get on a special November ballot this year here in California. The proposed State Constitutional Amendment would repeal ALL of our existing legal rights, bar us from re-obtaining those rights or gaining any new legal standing of any kind EVER. It’s cleverly written in such a way that at a casual glance, it only appears to be about marriage, but, upon closer examination, it becomes clear that if implemented as worded, the amendment mandates a sweeping repeal of all legal rights for gays and lesbians in both the public and private sector. If it passes, it will be again legal in California to evict people from their apartments and fire them from their jobs for being gay and without any other cause. The amendment would turn back the clock to 1950 and, for us, freeze it there permanently. It is imperative that our community recognizes that this is not a business as usual situation any longer. Like it or not, we’re literally in a fight for our lives. We cannot continue to live in denial about the immediacy of threat we face. We’ve been given no choice but to defend ourselves head on. To accept defeat would mean living permanently as second-class citizens devoid of legal rights or opportunity. If these so-called “Christians” get their way our community runs the very real danger of ending up just like the Jews did at the hands of the Nazi’s during WWII. I know that sounds alarmist and reactionary, it’s intended to because things have gotten that serious.
If you want to know exactly what the Dominionists believe and are saying about us gays and lesbians, here’s a link to the Traditional Values Coalition web page where they “put all of their cards on the table” (so to speak) and accuse gays of all sorts of absurd, horrible and completely fraudulent things. (For example: All gay men are child molesters; Or: Sodomites want the right to be married not so that they can enter into committed relationships but so that they can destroy society by destroying the institutions of society.)
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/
This is the organization behind the anti-gay hate legislation in many of the states across the country including the current California Constitutional Amendment petition drive. Once you’ve seen what these “Christians” really believe, you might just get as angry about this as I have...
Posted by: Robert In WeHo | Aug 1, 2005 1:26:02 PM
Thank you tribecatexan!
Savage Garden rocks, especially the song "Affirmation." I'm glad someone recognized it.
Posted by: Rob | Aug 1, 2005 3:43:17 PM
For time out from the dominionists (Sounds almost like wierd sectarian monarchists from the 18th century?) come to Canada!
Gays welcome... :) Except in Alberta :(
Posted by: Peter | Aug 1, 2005 4:09:09 PM
Lets not forget to clean out some of our closets too guys. I'm getting sick hearing other homosexuals explain to these Christians that Gay Pride parades are supposed to be "educational" to gay youth when whatever sight the Christians get of the parades of leather and lathered up go-go dancers.
Not saying that's how gay pride shouldn't be, we should just say it's a time to have a good time.
Not to sound like a Cassius or a Mitch but sometimes the "gay community" does give the haters some more supplies for their arsenal.
Posted by: Damon | Aug 1, 2005 6:00:17 PM
Ya know, if granting black men or suffragists the vote had been ballot initiatives, they'd have been fighting for the vote a lot longer. It's not always wise or fair to "let the people decide" in cases such as this.
And allow me to curse please: Godammit.
Posted by: Ed | Aug 2, 2005 2:29:33 PM