Ted Haggard Letter: “I am Guilty…a Deceiver and a Liar”

TedhaggardTed Haggard was fired as pastor of the Colorado Springs-based New Life Church over the weekend by an independent overseer board that determined him unfit to retain his position. Said the board, which was made up of clergy from other churches: “Our investigation and Pastor Haggard’s public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct.”

Haggard also sent a letter to his congregation which was read aloud to them on Saturday apologizing for the “disappointment, betrayal, and hurt” that he had caused.

“I alone am responsible for the confusion caused by my inconsistent statements. The fact is, I am guilty of sexual immorality, and I take responsibility for the entire problem,” Haggard told them.

He added: “I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I’ve been warring against it all of my adult life.”

The full text of Haggard’s letter can be read here. His wife Gayle wrote a letter as well.

Haggard says he will submit to the oversight of Dr. James Dobson, Pastor Jack Hayford, and Pastor Tommy Barnett (after which I’m sure we will have anointed a flaming new leader for the “ex-gay” movement).

The video above is a clip of Richard Dawkins, a leader in evolutionary biology, questioning Pastor Ted.

You may have missed…
Ted Haggard: Bought Meth, Didn’t Use It; Received Massage, No Sex [tr]
Mike Jones Fails Lie Detector Test on Ted Haggard But Test Administrator Doubts Test’s Accuracy [tr]
Ted Haggard Voicemails Analyzed; Pastor Admits to Indiscretions [tr]
Evangelical Leader Ted Haggard Steps Down After Gay Escort Claims They Had a Sexual Relationship for Three Years [tr]

Comments

  1. John says

    The really sad thing about all of this is that Haggard is still blaming and loathing himself instead of embracing who he is as his God made him. Having spent most of my adult life doing exactly what he did, in the climate of fear that he helped to create, is a wretched way to live. It is hard to comprehend how much damage it does until the closet doors are opened and all of the pressures that twist your psyche into a pretzel are gone.

  2. Rob (lrdarystar) says

    Are we allowed to hate on this guy? I mean, I feel bad for people trapped in the closet but this guy turned his own fear into pure Hate. Haggard needs the help of some caring gay individuals, or bisexual. I doubt he’ll be seeking their counsel however.

  3. Ken says

    Sad. Sad. Sad. It is probably a vain wish to hope that the general public, and Evangelicals in particular, will learn anything from this disclosure. Particularly that whenever a man decries homosexuality he has, at the least, homosexual leanings.

  4. Mare says

    I am an evangelical Christian brought to this site by Google news. I read the article, and your comments. I am truly moved by your kindness. I would expect anyone to have a hay day with this type of tragedy, instead you are all identifying with Haggard in mercy and compassion. All people, not just evangelicals, should learn something here.

  5. Erica says

    I don’t think anyone hates Ted Haggard, except maybe those “false” Christians in his congregation. The wider public and fair minded folk are disappointed in his blatant hypocrisy and disregard for the well being of his family in this matter. He is trying to salvage a marriage that clearly is a sham and now having 5 children, is risking the well-being of them also. He is a gay man. Until he embraces that fact, he will never be the man he needs to be in his marriage; in his family. He would be a better friend to Gayle and a better father if he were honest. He is still lying and deceiving. The saddest part is…he’s deceiving himself…still.

  6. Kevin says

    If Ted Haggard and Mike Jones died Sat Nov 5th which one would go to Heaven?

    Ted is the leader of National Association of Evangelicals, which includes 30 million American members who have ruthlessly gone after gay people, pointing the finger at them and calling them sinners. Rather than forgiving them and welcoming them in to their church and ignoring the fact that it is their job only to get these supposed sinners to God and he will change their hearts they chose to condemn them, cast dispersions against them and pass laws against them.

    Galatians 6:1 sayes “ Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.” ( Please look up this passage in your version of your Bible)

    The bible thumpers did not restore the gay people in the spirit of meekness and there for God himself let their leader be tempted.

    Meth is a drug used by gay men to enhance the stimulation they feel in their rectums when they are having anal sex. Ted bought and used meth to enhance the feeling he got when Mike Jones penetrated him anally. If this were not the case there would have been no need for Ted to buy this specific drug, he could have gotten pot, X, coke or GHB if all he wanted to do was get high.

    Ted, as a direct result of not restoring supposed gay sinners in the spirit of meekness was himself tempted and became gay plain and simple, see Galations 6:1 again. Ted did not have an affair with Mike as Mike is a male prostitute. Ted paid Mike to have sex with him, this is very different than having an affair. This is prostitution and it went on for 3 years.

    Mike is not the gay accuser. Mike is a male prostitute who was paid for his services.
    Had Mike wanted to he could have told Ted that if he did not pay him off that he would come forward with these allegations, this is what you would expect a prostitute to do, black mail him for the money, but that did not happen. Mike came forward out of his own sin and he recognized Ted’s hypocrisy . Not only was Ted having sex with a man , he was paying a prostitute, buying and doing illegal drugs that are well known for the anal stimulation they provide during gay sex, all the while leading a congregation and heading a huge national organization that doesn’t forgive and deal with gays meekly but out right condemns gay men.

    If then you believe that being gay is a sin and you persecute and do not forgive them with a spirit of meekness you risk being tempted to homosexuality yourself.

    Don’t believe it ? Read Galatians 6:1 in your own Bible and look at what Ted has done “You will know them by their works”

    Ted, who is clearly to be held to a higher standard did all of these things and lied about it and continues to lie about it. Mike the low life gay prostitute was honest and truth full and admitted every thing openly and said he was a sinner and that he did not use drugs or prostitute himself any more.

    If they both died right this minute which of these two men do you think Jesus will welcome into the Kingdom of Heaven?

    If Christ were there and crucified with the two of them, one on either side , I can assure you he would look at Mike and say to him “ today you will be with me in Paradise” ( no mention of judgement day). Ted would die and go not straight but “gaily forward” to hell, no stop at judgement day either.

    I hope you holier than thou Bible thumpers have learned something here. You damn well better change the way you treat sinners and stop condemning people or you damn sure will get tempted yourself by the same sin and go to hell! After all it is written “ he who lives by the sword dies by the sword” You point the finger at the gays , do not for give them with a meek spirit and condemn them therefore you will fall into the same sin and not be forgiven but condemned and judged even more so harshly. This being the case and judging by the rules you Bible thumpers play by and now knowing that Ted is a closeted gay man, he is married , has children, ran a mega church and was the head of a 30 million member Evangelical Association all of whom condemn gays he should be severly punished. He is a hypocrite of the worst kind and his church and Association should deal with him 1000 times more harshly than they have all the other gay persons they have not forgiven and persecuted. He should be stripped of all the privileges that being married affords him and have to suffer even worse consequences than the other gay men he condemned and have to suffer the lack of rights that he and his people take from gay men. His marriage should be annulled, he should be labeled an adulterer and a liar, his children should be labeled bastards and he should be stone to death! He should turn to the gay community, of which he has been a closeted member for at least 3 years, and submit to these punishments willingly and immediately. His wife should be denied any pension, or IRA or SS benefits, should be shunned and ostracized from society and not allowed to be remarried and never again be allowed to see her children.

    Bible thumpers quit telling the gays to turn from their ways, instead turn from your ways. Bring the gays to God just as they are and let him deal with them and forget about judging them or passing laws against them.

    Bible thumpers you belong to a cult, what you do and what you say is not directed by a Holy Spirit residing in you , you do and say your elders will not Gods will as the Holy Spirit directs you. The Holy Spirit knows you not and does not reside in you. If you are not directed by the Holy Spirit do not offer to share your faith or your beliefs with others unless specifically asked by them. Other wise you run the risk of becoming like Ted.

    http://www.christianissues.com/hogan.html

    Kevin

  7. Greg says

    “….Meth is a drug used by gay men to enhance the stimulation they feel in their rectums when they are having anal sex. Ted bought and used meth to enhance the feeling he got when Mike Jones penetrated him anally…”

    Oh, for fucks sake…

  8. Rad says

    Kevin,

    I can appreciate your commentary and perspective. If I were not so totally turned against organized religeon; if I could hold a Chritian Jesus or God in my heart, your philosophical outlook would probably mirror my own.

    I pity Ted Haggard, but I also have no trust in the man to extent that; he needs to come completely clean, and not just beg forgivness with the hope of disappearing into the background or showing up on some Equus website as their new leader. His hypocrisy will haunt him for a long time.

    Rad

  9. mark m says

    Yeah is there such a thing as a judgmental diatribe against judgment? If so Kevin just wrote it.

    Since there may be Evangelical Christians reading this blog, Let me speak as a Gay man raised as an Evangelical. One of the problems of Haggard’s admission is that it paints a picture that all homosexual men engage in shameful behavior – using prostitutues, drugs, lying. In my own family, I have older cousins who are homosexual and who have struggled with substance abuse, died of AIDS and some have admitted to some sexual abuse as children.

    No wonder my Mom was upset when I confessed to being Gay, even though I have never been molested, I don’t drink or do drugs and I am HIV negative.

    And today she still has a problem with it, in spite of my having a good career, a committed relationship going on 10 years, living a life of integrity, happiness and fulfillment AND my Christian faith remains strong.

    When an Evangelical is convinced that a certain lifestyle is evil, there is no reasoning with them. They see what they want to see. They don’t see the gay men and women who have rich, happy fulfilling lives. They only notice the ones who are struggling with addiction and self loathing because that reinforces their dogmatic viewpoint.

    My challenge to all Evangelicals is this: What if you lived in a Communist country that told you your Faith in Jesus was a sham — a threat to society. What if this atheist government refused to give you certain protections by law and civil rights afforded to non Christians. Would you turn away from Jesus or would you fight for your belief? Would an atheist be able to convince you that your faith was misplaced and that you believed in a myth even though in your heart you knew the Truth?

    That’s how it feels to be a gay man who is happy to be gay but faces people (sometimes in his own family) who know very little about what it is to be gay, but feel they know enough to pass judgment.

  10. MAL says

    What’s been so amazing is that people haven’t jumped too hard on him — neither his own congregation and the gay rights movement. I think this is because this is a perfect example of what gay people have dealt with in our society forever. I think we all feel a bit sad for him because we know what it’s like not being able to change something that we’re born with, and we sympatize with his struggle, especuially being forever embedded in a cruel environment that condemns being gay.

    The problem, however, is how he calls it a “sexual problem”, “immoral sexual behaviour”, and “repulsive.” He’s got a long way to go, and with the environment he’s in, he’ll likely be sent along the wrong path and continue to struggle against it forever. Ironically, he is probably now the only person in the evangelical movement that has the power to shift the winds on the topic of homosexuality. Bloody unlikely, though.

    How this plays out dictates how hard this experience will be on him. Right now he’s got a LOT of compassion from both sides which is taking precedence over his past drives of hate and his misinterpretation of Christianity. If Haggard continues to believe it’s repulsive and wrong, THAT’S when we’re all going to come down on him, because deep down…he knows. He knows.

  11. Rad says

    Chris and Greg,

    I have listened to distant family members speak as Kevin did in his outline. It is how a person is wired into a community, society or belif system. They mean well, they are trying to say the right things based in those foundations. I wish more Fundamentalist Christians in power would embrace and teach Kevin’s philosophical mind set. I think if more did, this country would certainly be a better place for everyone.

    Unfortunate that when I hear “Fundamentalist Christian”, I think “American Terrorist”… promoting hate in the name of God. Bombing aborition clinics. Picketing funerals. Swaying politics and corporations by thrusting their ilk to high levels to force their… perverted mind set on the rest of society.

    Anyhow. Happy thoughts for the Monday before Elections…

    Rad

  12. says

    Rad,
    I’m confused. Are you defending that moron?

    Did you actually read his entire comment? I realize it was agonizingly long and self-important. But I just want to make sure you read the part that said Haggard should be stoned to death and his wife should be ostracized from society and never allowed to see her children.

    I have family members who are fundamentalist as well, and none of them believe stupid shit like that!

    Kevin is not the solution. He’s part of the problem.

  13. mark m says

    The clip is interesting too, even though it deals with science vs. faith. Haggard did make a valid point concerning science: all too often scientists get caught up in an arrogant mindset — a condescending one: That we have pretty much figured “it” all out.

    What is lost on Haggard, however, is that his ministry was built upon lies and ego. While Haggard may have genuinely believed he was without arrogance, he truly believed that he was “chosen” by God to WOW the flocks with his rock concert.

    That’s Ego.

    The English narrator got many things right. Some Evangelicals want to live in a world that is Black and White. Where childish assumptions are truths.

    This is because the real world is too scary otherwise.

  14. John T says

    Mal, you think folks haven’t jumped too hard on Haggard? The earlybird commenters on this site seem unusually nice and sedate this morning, but check out the rest of the internet and you’ll find comment sections brimming with the cattiest (and side-splittingly funny) smack-downs directed at him, his church and his movement. Especially on AmericaBlog — there’s some mean bitches over there.

  15. Erica says

    One would hope that the church would begin to realize the cost of human suffering and living lies. A woman in the church confessed that her life had been broken by affairs. She wanted support…not judgement. As human beings we need to spread a little care and be a little realistic; be more like the man that most Christians claim to worship.

  16. anon says

    Speaking of arrogance, kindly let me reprint my previous post from last night here:

    Here is part of Haggard’s amazing “confession”:

    “For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom,” Haggard wrote. “Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach.”

    So, he’s a gay man trapped in a religion and marriage for which he was clearly never intended to join. It occurs to me now that we can argue that homosexuality is not a sin, per se, because a str8 man or women would never be tempted by such a “sin”. They would never have any desire for gay relations, in contrast to Haggard, who has been “struggling” all his adult life. There is no commonality among all humans with this temptation, unlike greed or lust or sloth, etc. It’s sort of like tempting the blind with pictoral pornography. For a preacher to stand up and yell at str8 men to not sleep with other men is almost bizarre since they would never do it anyway. It does however, give everyone the rush of moral rectitude. Str8 men everywhere can say to themselves, “See, I don’t sleep with men! Aren’t I so wonderful! I’ve managed to avoid this temptation all my life!” And I think clever preachers are aware of this problem, so the whole issue of demon possession comes up. Why, if you are not possessed, you have nothing to worry about, but watch out if you are!

    Now, the replacement preacher they’ve got, Ross Parsley, I will confess, does also come across as a bit gay too, so perhaps this story is not over.

    Finally, I think we need to press good ol’ Jim McGreevey on this story and get his reaction. Does he have any advice for the Rev. Haggard? Does he think the Rev. should admit his orientation and “go over to the other side” as JMcG finally managed to do under somewhat similar circumstances?

  17. Brian says

    In response to Kevin’s self-righteous message, The question of who would go to heaven or hell suggests that you don’t believe in the divinity of God. For if you did, you’d understand him to be all forgiving. That’s the big leason in life.

  18. Kenneth says

    I went to the church website http://www.newlifechurch.org and read Pastor Ted’s apology to the congregation. It was totally pathetic, sad, manipulative and poorly written. How does someone repair that kind of damage? The deceit is so rooted in his being, it would be hard to trust his kind.
    I feel sorry for the people who looked up to this man as an example of goodness and faith, they were purely duped. Pastor Ted should look at who he is, re-evaluate his situation, make peace with himself and his family and move on, instead of blame and change. I honestly think there will be some good come out of a terrible situation. God works in mysterious ways indeed!

  19. rob adams says

    The best line the video is how Haggard’s “worship service” more akin to the Nuremburg Rally/Reichsparteitag. That says it all to me.

    We need to confront & fight these Christian Fascists (aka Christ-Nazis).

    rob@egoz.org

  20. Billy says

    Has anyone taken a look at the new life church’s leadership directory (with pictures). Every man listed has gay face.

    For those who don’t know what that is, simply go to connexion.com and look at the pictures of guys and their over-reaching smiles. A look only their mother’s and parish priests could love.

  21. CaliNexus says

    Yadah, yadah, yadah, Kevin… it’s not that deep. It’s all so basic: one reaps what they sow. Dude is just another closet case who will say anything now that he’s outed and embarrased. You best believe he will continue to suck dick or get fucked or whatever his sexual trip is. It’s the Jimmy Swaggert thing all over… remember how he got busted with hookers then stood up in front of the congregation and cried and begged for forgiveness. Then, got busted again a short while after? Sex is sex… people will do anything to get off the way they like it. And the more you deny yourself the pleasure, the greater the possibility that you will lie, cheat, deceive to get some. Next…

  22. Ryan says

    I can’t believe Pastor Haggard’s wife actually thinks she can see this through. The man is clearly gay and self-loathing. No amount of support and understanding is going to change his sexuality.

  23. Leland says

    Who wouldn’t be a mean bitch after taking the time to read his whole statement and seeing that, in classic theocratic fascist form, his farewell revealed less Christ-like grace and more Old Testament brimstone. What revelatory word choices! He all but directly called all gays “repulsive” and “dirt” and “sick and wounded” whose “sins…need to be dealt with harshly.” Shall we dedicate the next “Matthew Shepard” in Ted Haggard’s name?

    A plague on his house! Save your pity and prayers for the past, present, and future victims of this vile man still a millionaire, still making a mockery of Jesus’ name with the final breath of his vulture song. His fall alone from the heights of religious political power sends the message to gay kids everywhere that they are unworthy of God’s or anyone else’s love. And, lest they miss the point, he couldn’t resist stamping them with his personalized Mark of the Beast——”DIRT”——on his way to History’s refuse heap.

  24. Marco says

    Sorry, after his self-loathing, hateful letter, I have 0 compassion for this man at this time.

    Ted, it’s not the gay that keeps you in “darkness” – it’s the religon.

  25. Glenn says

    While I think lots of us feel some empathy for someone who was so struggling with his gay identity — because most of us gays and lesbians have been there — I feel no sympathy for a man who, faced with that struggle, chose to lash out at his brothers and sisters. Not only because it’s terribly hypocritical, but because he did it in the name of Christianity. Well, I’m no longer a Christian, but I was raised one, and the Jesus I was taught about preached compassion, and warned against judging your fellow man. His message, like those of his fellow evangelists, is the very antithesis of Christianity. The sad part is, that is not the lesson his “flock” will take home from this.

  26. Mary says

    Please take a moment to look at the 10 Commandments! It says nothing about homosexuality. The command to be straight is not even among the top 10! Why do we focus so much time and energy hating this particular sin? Isn’t glorifying God and loving our brothers and sisters a much better use of our time? We are all sinners, but the worst sin we all struggle with is pride. It’s not nearly as controversial to talk about pride, though, is it?

  27. ggreen says

    Have you ever noticed how the effeminate pastors all have the big flocks? The Evangelical pastors’ motto for Mega-Churches: “the more they seat the higher the feet”. Look at Joel Osteen from Lakewood church in Houston TX. He looks like Paul Lynde and Liberace’s love child. Joel sounds like a gay hyperventilating sheep when he speaks and his wife looks like RuPaul did her make-up. Don’t forget Paul and Jan (Clown Face) Crouch. Paul is still paying off a gay sex scandal from several years ago and Jan makes Tammy Faye look like a nun. These folks are on television all the time asking for money. Sick Sick Sick

  28. Glenn says

    Hey, GGreen, you know why that is, right? Because being the head of a mega-church has nothing to do with actually being a minister to your flock, it’s all theatrics, and putting on a good show. And who can put on a show better than a big ‘mo?

  29. BRYAN says

    Being raised in the Assembly of God Church and hearing pastors from the pullpit say that gays are an abomination to God and bound for hell, maybe this is what needed to happen to wake up Evangelicals around the world in order that they might “love” as oppose to “judge” everyone who is not exactly as they are. It sickens me because I would still love to be able to attend church at the AOG and be involved in the music. However, the last AOG church I attended happened to be at the same time that my wife and I divorced, and during that trauma, I felt very comfortable in “confiding” in that pastor and was VERY honest and open about everything going on in my life, after which I was not allowed to ever sing or play the piano in that church again!! I feel as if that was judgment being cast upon me, and it wasn’t even like my life was a PUBLIC scandal such as this one. No one in the church knew my issues other than the pastor whom I spoke to in a confidential and private fashion. Therefore, I do not attend church now as a gay man but still feel as if I have a ministry and talent in music that is God-given!!!

  30. rob adams says

    “….Meth is a drug used by gay men to enhance the stimulation they feel in their rectums when they are having anal sex. Ted bought and used meth to enhance the feeling he got when Mike Jones penetrated him anally…”

    ALERT: Christian-Fascist

  31. mary says

    Nikko – According to God’s Word, which I believe to be true, homosexuality is a sin. Read Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; and 1 Corinthians 6:9) God is a Creator and homosexuality, as well as contraception, stand in His way of creating. Anything that is against His will is a sin.

  32. Anon says

    Like I’ve said elsewhere, if you are prepared to preach to me, then you should be prepared to preach to the Taliban or the Saudis. Off you go then and best of luck! Your faith hangs in the balance.

    When I want your advice I’ll ask. Thanks.

  33. Leo says

    I guess Amazon.com won’t be selling any more copies of “From This Day Forward: Making Your Vows Last a Lifetime” by Ted and Gayle Haggard.

    http://www.amazon.com/This-Day-Forward-Making-Lifetime/dp/1400072557/sr=8-3/qid=1162741375/ref=sr_1_3/103-8255199-6587839?ie=UTF8&s=books

    “From This Day Forward will open your eyes to the spiritual importance of the wedding ceremony as a beautiful expression of God’s love–and of His divine design for marriage.

    The wedding ceremony signifies so much more than a commitment between two individuals; it’s a living portrait of God’s love for His people. The whole drama of God’s love and plan for all of us is represented in the rites of the traditional wedding ceremony and the daily experience of marriage.

    God designed marriage to reveal His love relationship with His people, His bride. When others look at an excellent marriage they see a husband gladly setting aside his own desires to care for his beloved, just as Christ abandoned His life for all of us. And they see a wife who, having taken on her husband’s name and calling, loves to please him and spend time in his presence, just as believers in Christ respond eagerly to God.

    When your eyes are open to these realities, your marriage–and your relationship with God–will shine with the wonder of this divine romance.

    From This Day Forward beckons you into a joyful celebration of the wedding ceremony and marriage relationship as you embark on the everyday adventure of love as God designed it to be.”

  34. Mary says

    Don’t shoot the messenger! I’m just pointing out what God’s Word says. I still think we focus too much on homosexuality as a sin and not enough on loving our brothers and sisters.

  35. rob adams says

    Mary:

    G-d’s word? No… MEN’s words.
    You, willingly, ignoring the difference.
    That is a real, true sin.

    Mary, you are spreading men’s hate, not divine word.

  36. Mary says

    Have you studied the bible and it’s history, Rob? It is completely divine. No man-made book could have survived the way it has. And, I’m not spreading hate! Read my posts. Love and peace to all…

  37. Leland says

    Bryan: I don’t know if you live near a Metropolitan Community Church group, the gay denomination started by Troy Perry, but, if you do, and have not explored them, I urge you to as their theology and liturgical practices are very similar to traditional AOG.

    Mary: heal thyself. Obviously you do not genuinely believe ALL of the scriptures you quote or, in addition to being too busy returning slaves to their masters, you would not be posting here for while the scriptures obviously contain nothing about computers and the Internet and blogs per se it is not, per your Bible, the place of a woman to interpret “God’s word” in any medium. You are to be silent while men speak [and by implication blog]. I’ll skip any lengthy discussion of the other Divine prohibitions based soley on your gender such as the fact that you will not go to heaven unless you bear children, your responsibility to confine yourself away from others for seven days after your mentrual period, etc. I was shocked, shocked, mortified to see Rev. Haggard’s wife wearing earrings and makeup! What a harlot! He was probably driven to his repulsive sin and sickness by that unclean woman.

    But I digress. In short, if you do not dress and act and eat and, in every way, live your daily life like the most observant Hasidic Jewish woman then we can’t listen to you, Mary, which, of course, we can’t anyway because we believe in God’s word. See ya. Wouldn’t wanna be ya.

  38. greg says

    mary-

    Wait, let me get this straight:
    You openly support opression of gays based on a 2000 year old text written by many authors, from many places, over many years, each with their own human agendas, that has been copied and recopied countless times, translated, re-translated, canonized, edited, and added to, giving birth to thousands of denominations with mutally exclusive ideas on almost every topic including homosexuality?

    Mary I know you mean well, but I can’t stand idly by and watch you hurt those around us in the name of anything, let alone God.

    Don’t hide behind the Bible mary. YOU SPREAD INTOLERNACE AND FEAR. Regardless of how righteous you may think you are, that is the simple truth.

    Greg

  39. Anon says

    I just listened to the first half of TH’s last sermon (Oct 29th). The irony is simply staggering! There are links on AS’s blog. I particularly liked, “You may think you are going to London when God is really sending you to Amsterdam”!! (not an exact quote).

  40. greg says

    Leland- THANK YOU.
    Couldn’t have pointed out the unending hypocrisy that is the Fundamentalist Christian Church any better…

    Mary How could a divine and perfect book give rise to over 3000 denominations with MUTALLY EXLCUSIVE ideas on virtually every topic? You’d think God would have been able to do a better job…

    There is no “gay agenda” anymore than there was a “slave agenda”. The only agenda out there is that of the fundy church which spreads fear in order to keep its flock in line and the money rolling in.

    And Mary, have fun spending eternity with your jealous, angry, murderous, vengeful, genocidal, and even deceitful (yes decietful) God as described in the Bible. I’ll pass…

  41. Anon says

    “It is completely divine. No man-made book could have survived the way it has.”
    Hi.
    Gilgamesh.
    2100 BC? 2100 BC.
    In Gilgamesh, our beloved protagonist wrestles with and profusely kisses his literal partner for the work, Enkidu.

    So, it would seem that if we take seniority as a sign of divinity, don’t know about the rest of you but it seems I’ve been doing it right all along.

  42. Mary says

    I am not interpreting God’s word – I am sharing what I have learned. I don’t support oppression – in fact I am FREE and support FREEDOM in Christ!

    It’s sad that so many have been taught in such a wrong and corrupt way. God is love and His Word is meant to teach us how to live a life without the issues that go along with sin. Living in sin causes issues – would anyone care to disagree?

    Mostly, I wish others would not use the sins of fellow Christians to justify their non-belief in Jesus. And I never said I was righteous. HE is righteous and I believe in Him.

  43. greg says

    “I am not interpreting God’s word”

    Of course you are mary. We all do. To not interpret is to simply be an robot. No thought. No feeling. No personal realtionshiip with God. Those people are drones. They are Bibliophiles (worship the Bible) and historians. Not Christians.

    Jesus spoke endlessly of compassion and accepting the downtrodden and hopeless. Loving thy neighbor. Yet you’re willing to ignore all that for one obscure reference to homosexuality? Which Paul wrote? And don’t even bring up Leviticus or I’ll insist you also stone your kids if they curse or disobey you and kindly go outside the city limits during your period.

    If God judges me, it will only be for being too open and accepting of those around me. And if he sends me to hell for that, the he’s not the kinda guy I wanna aspend eternity with.

    “Living in sin causes issues – would anyone care to disagree?”
    Sure but what do you define as sin? I define it as what Haggard did for so long: oppression, finger-pointing, boldfaced lying, and spreading intolerance. And yes, his “sins” definitely caused him serious issues. Like being a conflicted closet, self-hating, gay.

    Greg

  44. mark m says

    So Mary, you ignore Leland’s point that you as a female are defying many laws laid down in God’s Word. You conveniently pass over the sections of Leviticus which call for a person to be put to death if he works on the Sabbath, or calls wearing a garment made from more than one kind of cloth an abomination.

    Yes, your emphasis in these posts has been on Christian Love.

    But you still manage to find a way to say that Homosexuals are living in sin and therefore live deplorable lives until they repent. To you that is a loving reminder. To we happy, fulfilled (and yes some of us Christian) homosexuals your “love” is judgment. And if you say it’s not your judgment then it’s God’s judgment… well then you have strayed into scripture interpretation. You’re a female and that’s a no-no.

    And hun, you so brilliantly illustrate the problem with Fundamentalism when you stress that you haven’t attempted to interpret scripture, just share what you have BEEN TAUGHT.

    This is a dyed-in-the-wool Evangelical Baptist here Mary…. I know all of the arguments.

  45. Mary says

    The Old Testament is filled with the LAW. Jesus came to free us from the LAW. None of us can fulfill it. He did and he paid the penalty of us not being able to fulfill it through His death on the cross. No doubt you all know this and understand it. You are trying desperately to find hypocrisy in what I’m saying and doing, but I’m sorry – it’s just not there.

    You are also putting words in my mouth. “But you still manage to find a way to say that Homosexuals are living in sin and therefore live deplorable lives until they repent.” I didn’t say that – you did! I said homosexuality is a sin, as is the use of contraception. Anything that gets in the way of God’s will is a sin. I myself am a SINNER and will continue to be one! Your homosexuality is a sin and apparently so is the fact that I’m on the internet expressing my opinion! But if not for that, I’m doomed because I have deceived others! We’re all sinners! The penalty for sin is death! What a wretched state we are all in! PRAISE GOD FOR JESUS CHRIST! He freed us all and all we have to do is accept His FREE gift! I know, it sounds too good to be true. It’s too easy! Obviously it’s not or everyone would be doing it!

  46. Ray says

    So, his wife says

    “..Dr. James Dobson, Pastor Jack Hayford, and Pastor Tommy Barnett (after which I’m sure we will have anointed a flaming new leader for the “ex-gay” movement).”

    I thought that there was already a “flaming leader” in that position.

  47. mark m says

    “He freed us all and all we have to do is accept His FREE gift! I know, it sounds too good to be true. It’s too easy! Obviously it’s not or everyone would be doing it!”

    Mary, what is difficult is finding harmony in so many views. And I’m not talking about the atheists in this thread who probably think you and I are cavemen for believing in God. I’m talking about fellow Christians and our many denominations. We are all sinners and we are all Christians.

    But we can’t all agree on what exactly the emphasis was His message. Yes, salvation. But your views of what redeems a believer differ greatly from my views.

    And we’re both Christians.

    You believe contraception is a sin. I do not.

    And we’re both Christians.

    I believe in Evolution. Many Christians do not. But I’m still a Christian.

    I defy anyone to come between me and my Savior on the subject of whether I am a “true” Christian.

    They really DO NOT want to go there.

    So this will be the last time I engage you Mary in what is at worst a difference in perspectives because at the end of the day we’re not supposed to care.

    After all we’re both Christians.

  48. Leland says

    Hello again, Mary. Let me see if I can remember how to say this correctly in the Koine Greek that I studied when I was planning to go to seminary: SHUT THE FUCK UP!

    Read what you keep writing, Mary. It’s not thought, it’s not opinion, and it’s certainly not revelation. You’re no burning bush [no pun intended]. You’re a talking robot; a tape player; an off-the-shelf speech recognition program. Do you rock back and forth while you type? Do you type with one hand while fingering your Rosary beads in the other; or kiss your Bible every few words? If you weren’t in a trance state you would pay attention to the fact that we aren’t some naked group of illiterate aborigines you’ve discovered [well, some of us are probably naked]. We’ve heard all of this repetitious verbal diarrhea before and we need it like we need the real thing. Someone, please pass Mary the Lomotil. Anyone!

    You’re not so much “washed in the blood of the Lamb” as you are simply brainwashed, Sister Mary. You’ve done your witnessing for the day, thank you. You’ve become nothing more than “sounding brass; a tinkling cymbal.” You’re thinking as a child and speaking as a child. You can clock out now, unless you’re going to start typing in tongues, which would at least be amusing. Show your Christian love for us, Mary, and get the hell off Towleroad.

  49. greg says

    Wait, if jesus came to free us from the Law of the Old Testament, then why do you still cling to it? And again, as pointed out before, why do you continue to consciously choose sin by posting here.

    “He freed us all and all we have to do is accept His FREE gift! ”
    How free is a gift when God has a gun to our head?

    Here accept this free gift or I’ll have you burn in Hell for all eternity? Again a contradiction.

    I’ve nvever uderstood how a “perfect” God could make such a messed up system that he need to sacrifice himself (Jesus) to himself in order to appease himself for the sins of people that he himself made. Huh? Talk about circular logic.

    Mary, your belief system creates the problem and provides the cure all in one. While the church skims 10% off the top.

    It’s like me injecting you with poison, and then, as you slowly die, I also provide you with the antidote. Then, assuming you “freely” accept it, I charge you a mere 10% of your monthly paycheck.

    And then you go around PRAISING MY NAME and trying to infect everyone else!

    Mary, with all due respect, I know you’re trying to help us, but I have to solemnly and clearly state that from where I sit, you are lost. You have been infected. Not by Jesus or by God, but by fear.

    So the antidote you peddle (accept jesus) is of no use to me, because I am not sick.

    But you know what? I fyou claim that you are sick, and you want the antidote, then more power to ya. Whatever story it is you want to cling to, if it helps you makes sense of the mysteries of life, then great.

    I would never ask anyone to follow me for I know not where I’m going. It’s your path Mary not mine, and I respect your free will to choose what works for you. And ask the same of you.

    Greg

  50. Marco says

    I give you guys credit for having the patience to deal with anyone and anything bible-related. As a Catholic school survivor, I have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to religious dogma.

    There’s so much I just don’t get. Case in point, the 10 Commandments. I am pretty sure adultery was frowned upon before Moses had the Big 10. I can’t imagine a guy would come home to his wife fucking another guy and say “This sucks. If only there was some sort of moral stance against this. In writing. On a big stone tablet.”

    All I am saying is that there were ethics and morals before the alleged God burned an alleged bush.

  51. peytonr says

    Gotta admit, I’ve been utterly consumed with this base and absurd story. It’s a rock-solid confirmation that the “thumpers” out there will always provide fodder for which even our most paranoid minds can’t conceive.

    BTW, why is it that avowed homos are living “lives of choice”, while Haggard and his ilk find themselves the victims of metaphysical “forces”, “temptations”, “tests”, etc., etc.

    That said, I just this evening remembered what so moved me about the Pennsylvania Amish and their reaction to the recent violation dealt them. Without vitriol or malice they forgave the shooter and welcomed his shattered family. What better example might we find, really?

  52. So Left I'm Right says

    I am SO FUCKING SICK of hearing about the God-damned, fucking Bible! I don’t give a fuck what YOU THINK the Bible says. Believe in it, interpret it however you want, be my guest. It’s your right. But, IT MEANS NOTHING TO ME, and I don’t care what you believe! It is NOT the law of our land. It is the law of your life, should you chose to live that way. I do not! Go ahead…give me scripture, baby. You think that has any significance?! You think your self-righteous judgement is of any importance in my life? Call me a sinner, call me whatever the Hell you want. It means absolutely nothing to me. Stop justifying your crazy rantings and my inequality with an ancient, fucking, MAN-MADE (you idiot, Mary) book, and unrelenting hypocrisy (see the latest example, the self-loathing Haggard)!

    Now I’m going to go get in bed with my boyfriend, who, by the way, inexplicably goes to church and believes in God, Jesus and the Bible. But he actually uses it as a source of faith and strength, not oppression and abuse. You Bible thumpers might try that for a change.

  53. kyan says

    Good points, Lefty. Probably said what I was thinking — just much more emphatically! Even though I am spiritual and believe in God, I just don’t get it when people start quoting Bible verses (first of all, completely out of context from the situation in which they were written), as if they assume that it means something to me. They lose their argument right there. To their, “it says in the Bible…” I have to say, “so what?”. What makes you assume that I even care what it says? I personally have read it and studied it… so have thousands of theologians — and there are completely different interpretations of the same things. So who is to say one is right and not another? It seems more than not, the evangelical Christians are the ones who proclaim to know the real truth and everyone else is misinformed. Give me a break.

    I know of several denominations performing gay marriages/committment ceremonies. Oh wait… I forgot, these are misguided people… “because the Bible says….”

    On another note… just what was the “darkness” that Pastor Ted was talking about? HIs homosexual desires, of the fact that he lied and cheated on his wife for three years, at least?

    My prediction… he’ll join Exodus, proclaim to have rid himself of ‘those homosexual demons’, become spokesperson for Exodus, renew his vows to his wife, and then be spotted cruising in a gay bar three years from now.

  54. Anon says

    Poor Mary, quite contrary… you guys were a little harsh (don’t hit me!). I think she was trying to inject Romans and not the Old Testament into her arguments, but what was odd was her final conclusion, if I could follow the logic, that sins are actually irrelevant, don’t worry about them, it’s all okay… Well, okay then, I won’t worry about them.

  55. Oscar says

    This case should prove that if you are born gay, you will be gay forever. There is no cure for being gay because it is not a disease. One is born that way. Mr. Haggard found out the hard way. He tried to change but being gay is not a choice is an innate state. So if one is gay one should be proud, honest and above board about it. I’m glad Mr. Haggard a rabid homophone was unmasked. His charade and his evil is over. Thank you God for getting to this hipocrite.

  56. Oscar says

    Show me where in the Gospels (the real word of our Lord Jesus) does He condemn gays. He does not. Is the evil gays like Mr. Haggard and Paul that to justify their feelings rant and rave against gays. They are really sick, not because they are gay but because they can’t deal with their feelings and themselves. They are a sorry lot. For whom I’m really sorry is for Mrs. Haggard and the kids that have to face Mr. Haggard’s lies and deceits. He’s an in-the-closet bastard and is and always will be a homo. Whether he likes it or not. Take that coloradians.

  57. steve says

    GOSH

    i need about a year to read through everyone’s post

    it’s over now people

    Ted Haggard has lost his career, probably lost his family and this story will disappear until the next scandal he’s involved in…which i assume is any minute now

  58. rob adams says

    Mary and her Christian-Nazism…

    If you ever wondered what it might be like to live in Germany/Austria in the few years before Hitler, just take a look at Mary.

    Spread understanding of these Christian-Nazis.
    Otherwise, in 10 years they’ll be setting up camps and passing various laws to discriminate againt innocent people — maybe not in every US state, but it will happen if this goes unchecked.

    Christian-Nazism is spreading like a putrid plague. Help stop their hate in every venue and blog.

    EXPOSE THE CHRIST-NAZI AGENDA OF HATE.

  59. rob adams says

    (BTW, Mary-The-Hater, i hold a degree in *theology* — and i can read all the so-called-divine Christian texts you worship, but in the original language, with their grammatical errors and all. Since when does G-d make grammatical errors? hmm?)

  60. Mary says

    Wow – I realize I went down the wrong path in trying to explain what a sin is. Forgive me for doing a horrible job of trying to show you the freedom in Christ! Perhaps this is why God doesn’t want women teaching! :) The answers are there – look to Jesus.

  61. greg says

    Mary-

    Your veil of “love” is transparent to us here. Instead we see the division, fear and oppression that quietly lies beneath it, and blinds you from yourself.

    Seek help.
    Seek God.
    You need it more than anyone here.

    Greg

  62. says

    A question for Richard Dawkins:
    Through the process of natural selection,
    why/how does homosexuality Still exist?

    Would not evolution eliminate non-reproducing homosexual creatures from the gene pools of all species, including homo sapiens?

    If homosexuality truly is ‘Not a Choice’ then it would be a biologically hard-wired behavior, genetically based in the organism. If their exists a genetic combination of DNA that ‘produces homosexual individuals’ – would not, over time – that particular combination of DNA be eliminated from existence?

    From a mathematical view point, it seems a set of ‘Gay DNA’ genes would be a terminal leaf, a numerical dead end pathway for a history of DNA recombination, with extinction the only outcome, as the number of off spring drops to zero.

    Or is ‘gayness’ similar to the altruistic alternative? Sacrificing the production of personal offspring, and working toward a greater good for the species as a whole? Like all female honey bees – only the queen reproduces – all others work themselves to death for the safety of the queen and the prosperity of the hive.

    Would that mean that gayness is a genetic form of altruistic self sacrifice, for the good of the hive, so to speak?

  63. Anon says

    I don’t think Richard D. reads towleroad (who knows?), but this question of course receives a lot of attention. First, we have to dispense with the notion of evolution acheiving any sort of “perfection”: there are always going to be mutations. Most mutations are harmful, but some are helpful. Now, with any mutation that might be helpful there may be consequences that might harm selectability, a “mixed bag” as it were.

    Most likely there is not one “gay gene”. Let’s say that there are 10 genes and 4 environmental factors that influence sexuality. Let’s say that any combination of 11 that go a certain way will cause the individual to become gay. The odds are against this, resulting in a small % of gays in the population. Now, individually, each gene will have some benefit to the individual, and in most cases that person will be str8 because the threshold of 11 will not be reached, but enough working in concert will produce a gay man or women. In this way the genes themselves will never become extinct and always produce a few individuals at a huge reproductive advantage. It would also produce several “flavors” of gayness too. Quite simple really.

Leave A Reply