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OK Rep. Sally Kern and Openly Gay Pastor in Easter Sunday Faceoff

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On Easter Sunday, Oklahoma state rep. Sally Kern and openly gay pastor Scott Jones of the Cathedral Of Hope in Oklahoma City faced off on Oklahoma City's political chat show Flashpoint. Check it out AFTER THE JUMP...

At issue, of course, were Kern's now world famous comments about gay people. Kern did not offer any apologies, but the talk does show how vastly different interpretations of the Bible can be.

Kern argues that homosexuality destroys "the moral fabric" of society, but I'd argue that Kern's interpretation of the Bible is far more destructive than any gay person will ever be.

In related news, Ron Marlett, a 59-year-old social worker, announced he would be running against Kern for her seat in the fall. Said Marlett: "I've just been concerned for some time about the damage done by extremes. I abhor hatred. I abhor hatred of people, of groups. I think everyone is worthy of respect."

Watch the clips of Sally Kern and Pastor Scott Jones, AFTER THE JUMP...

(via pam's house blend)

you may have missed...
Judy Shepard Has a Message for Anti-Gay OK State Rep Sally Kern [tr]
An Update on the Anti-Gay Sally Kern Saga [tr]

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Comments

  1. Does Marlett have a website for political donations yet? I just watched this, and it sounds like she's MOST afraid of "the homosexuals" exercising their democratic right to finance her opponent.

    In fact, I can't wait to donate money.

    Posted by: Mike | Mar 25, 2008 9:21:57 AM


  2. How embarrassing for Oklahoma. This nation has had its fill of unenlightened and ignorant Republicans. Whenever these so called Christians who normalize violence through their "love the sinner hate the sin" rhetoric, rears their ugliness, the extreme nature of their thinking is exposed. Its a slow, arduous process. I'm so proud of Mr. Jones ability to present his case devoid of the emotions I would have had, namely to reach across the table and throttle Sally.

    Posted by: TOOBOOT | Mar 25, 2008 9:37:13 AM


  3. our boy needs to grow a set. he mostly let her prattle on, unchallenged

    Posted by: b mac | Mar 25, 2008 10:07:09 AM


  4. In his recent book, Frank Schaeffer says that the religious right is being led by three kinds of people, "The dumb or idealistic ones who really believed. The out-and-out charlatans. And the smart ones who still believed – sort of – but knew that the evangelical world was sh*t, but who couldn’t figure out any way to earn as good a living anywhere else.”

    Peggy Kern seems like the first type.

    Posted by: Voet | Mar 25, 2008 10:18:34 AM


  5. As a gay man living in Oklahoma City, I was impressed with Rev. Jones. He showed great compassion, knowledge, and showed restraint. Sitting next to Rep Sally Kern was former OKC Mayor Kirk Humprheys who, while Mayor of OKC, banned our gay pride banners from being displayed on city light poles that line city city streets. OKC's GLBT organizations, mainly Cimarron Alliance Group, sued the city and won the lawsuit. Mayor Humphreys is one of the most homophobic people, besides Kern, I have ever had the displeasure of meeting.

    Rev Jones did a great job...I will be lending my support to Martlett in whatever capacity he needs...Kern must be defeated at all costs!

    Posted by: PBashline | Mar 25, 2008 10:26:10 AM


  6. The bible should never be used as a legislative tool. If the "laws" in the bible are so important how is it that only two of the ten commandments are civil laws, stealing and killing.

    Stop using the bible to divide us. The fastest growing religious affiliation in this country is "none". Hopefully as this group continues to grow politicians like this well no longer be elected.

    Posted by: question all | Mar 25, 2008 10:52:35 AM


  7. I agree with Tooboot. Sally Kern may be round the bend, but she put forth her argument in a way that no doubt resonates with other Christianists. For Rev. Jones to respond by saying, "well, that's too ridiculous to merit a response," gets us nowhere. I also think trying to argue that the bible's anti-gay statements can be explained away by translation issues is a red herring. Far better to admit the obvious but then note that people who believe the bible is unerring have a lot more explaining to do than gays. What gives them the right to edit the bible, which they constantly do? Where is their anti-divorce amendment to the constitution? It's fine for Kern to have anti-gay views or even belong to an anti-gay church, but there is a little something called separation of church and state that makes her status as an elected official problematic in the extreme - this was not even brought up. Why do we constantly let these people dictate the terms of the argument? I hope Marlett has some media savvy.

    Posted by: Andy | Mar 25, 2008 11:31:50 AM


  8. The big pink elephant in the room is that Sally Kern hits every lesbian stereotype.

    Posted by: sam | Mar 25, 2008 11:46:19 AM


  9. How did this crazy bitch get elected in the first place? Yikes, my grandmother in her 80's was hipper than this crazy bitch!!

    Posted by: paul | Mar 25, 2008 12:09:41 PM


  10. Amen, BMAC! It's gonna take a pair and then some to finally shut these low-life fundies down. I would have reached across that table and just pinched her little lips shut, yes I would!

    Posted by: mike | Mar 25, 2008 12:58:43 PM


  11. I think Mrs. Kern and her cohort monopolize this whole conversation. They kept interjecting specific Christian dogma and biblical scripture into everything. It devolved into a theological debate which is not where it should have been. I also feel that while he was given short shrift in the whole conversation, he also did not bring up some important points he ought to have. The moderator was clearly biased. Oh well, at least it's being discussed somewhat. Thank God I don't live in Oklahoma!

    Posted by: Brad | Mar 25, 2008 1:04:56 PM


  12. Religious scholars have stated that the translation of the Bible is flawed and that the passages that currently mention homosexuality were, in the original language, NOT referring to homosexuality. 1 Timothy 1:9-10 uses a word, 'arsenkoitai' which has been translated as 'homosexual'. Religious scholars contend that 'arsenokoitai' actually meant 'pimps, prostitutes, boy sex slaves, abusive pedophiles or male prostitutes', but did NOT refer to two men in a loving relationship. I wish Pastor Jones had brought up this fact to Representative Kern.

    Posted by: peterparker | Mar 25, 2008 1:43:29 PM


  13. That woman is an idiot. She needs to be stopped spreading her hatred.
    The country is not ran by "the bible" and it should never be.
    Let her believe as she wishes, just don't expect everyone else to follow along.

    Karma is gonna bite that bitch hard.

    Posted by: Bobby | Mar 25, 2008 1:53:05 PM


  14. What bothers me is that when she thought that only a select, obviously right-wing Christian audience was listening, Ms Kern outright lambasted the gay community and accused them of an insane agenda and the fall of every society that embraced them JUST to stir up support for herself. Yet, when put face to face with a gay man, she qualified every accusation to say that she is only against "the sin of homosexuality" – not Rev Jones or anyone in particular...

    BULLSHIT! What a COWARDLY response to being caught red-handed in hate speech! She outright attacked a segment of AMERICANS (and yes, even OKLAHOMANS - her own constituency) and she needs to own up to that.

    I also agree that the argument over semantics gets us nowhere. What changes people is the humanness of the situation – friends and family members coming out to their fundamentalist parents, brothers, sisters, neighbors and friends. Through their personal stories of misery under the condemnation fundamentalist Christians bring versus the relief of being accepted for who you are, bigoted hearts are slowly melted.

    Additionally, allow me to rant a little and say that I am TIRED of being the bastard of the American family reunion in most political arenas. Thank GOD (or whoever you believe in) that the movement in this country is changing, little by little, to tolerance. Thank GOD that assholes like Sally Kern are becoming the minority in this world. Thank GOD that soon, enough people will be supportive of the LGBT community that politicians won't be able to USE us anymore! And thank GOD that hatred like hers is being called out for what it is.

    Posted by: bd1421 | Mar 25, 2008 2:10:57 PM


  15. She definitely triggers the lesbian alarm bells.

    Posted by: anon | Mar 25, 2008 2:19:12 PM


  16. This woman is represents the part of America that Reverend Jeremiah Wright was preaching about. Years ago, it was race relations, now it's the "homosexual agenda". I think they used to warn the country about Jews too. Hell, they even preached against the Roman Catholics. Reverend Wright was right about racist bigoted Americans like that shrew in the Oklahoma legislature.

    Posted by: Derrick from Philly | Mar 25, 2008 2:32:09 PM


  17. The idiocy of saying that God's O.T. moral or ceremonial laws should still be followed makes it OK to do several things that are against the laws of the U.S. currently.

    I wish the man would have shown several examples of how insane her line of thinking is. Once you show someone's picking and choosing O.T. law - while leaving out several laws that aren't followed now - for their OWN AGENDA, you can make some headway in this arguement. At least with people that don't have their head firmly shoved up their ass.

    What's really interesting is that she actually believes her wild imaginative future play-out will come true: a country run by gays if things keep going our way with our agenda in place. If only.

    Would someone PLEASE fax me a copy of our agenda??? I missed the last meeting.

    Posted by: johnny | Mar 25, 2008 4:31:44 PM


  18. OY! Amerikkka is so scary!

    Posted by: Cody | Mar 25, 2008 5:12:02 PM


  19. Oh Jesus, there's Derrick from Philly leaping in to inject race into another story. Give it a rest, for fuck's sake.

    Posted by: Tom | Mar 25, 2008 6:43:13 PM


  20. Did you miss your own Easter church service this year? Well, by clicking on this link (http://www.kfor.com/Global/category.asp?C=22780) you can make up for that loss by listening to Oklahoma's Rep. Sally Kern, district 84, give her own Sunday sermon.

    This March 23 local program on Oklahoma City's channel 4, KFOR, was billed as a debate between Rep. Sally Kern and Dr. Rev. Scott Jones of Cathedral of Hope in Oklahoma City. But thanks to the connivance of moderator-in-name-only Kevin Ogle, Kern was allowed to control the conversation by talking over and louder than anyone else at the table.

    Her "discussion" in the form of a monologue centered on, what else, her bible's version of what is or is not sinful and the usual steam-tray of cafeteria-style pick-and-choose bible verses.

    Until the issue of LGBT equality moves beyond dueling bible verses and slinging death-ray one liners about who has the superior scholarship, there will be little progress made in obtaining under civil law the rights and benefits for which LGBT citizens are paying taxes.

    I'm not interested in blocking anyone's free speech opportunities, whether that be in the public square or the private sanctuary. But I am VERY interested in getting what is due to me and my LGBT friends which is full recognition of the birthright of living in this country--free and open access to all federal, state, and local benefits, rights, and privileges, without questioning our sexual orientation or gender presentation, bar none.

    To go back into the closet is unthinkable and would return the playing field to those who are alarmed that we LGBT people are running for public office, participating in the democratic process, and winning elections both local and statewide all across the country.

    The 2003 Lawrence v. Texas decision was our Declaration of Independence--our private lives can no longer be used to intimidate us with threats of public exposure, arrest, and monetary fines.

    With Lawrence we regained our humanity and self-esteem but there are many people who would deny the validity of the Supreme Court.

    We must understand that those who oppose our full participation in the country's social network do not care for our equality; they've never learned to share, they don't play by the same rules. I think we're not absorbing this fact into our strategies.

    We must act persistently, always legally, and at the same time, forcefully in the public courts, the public square, and our social circles to demand that our citizenship is recognized as an integral part of our country's past, present, and future.

    Posted by: James Nimmo | Mar 25, 2008 9:03:37 PM


  21. First thing that comes to my mind...THANK GOD I was born in New England! Our Congressmen / Congresswomen would be run out of town for making comments like Sally's.

    Second...Andy I think it would be great if you could post Ron Marlett's website if / when you find it. I, and many others no doubt, would be more than happy to take part in the democratic process in Oklahoma...or should I have said fund the "homosexual agenda" in Oklahoma?? Which is it? I'm confused.

    Posted by: Jerry in RI | Mar 25, 2008 10:11:42 PM


  22. I was bothered that Sister Sally was able to repeat "homosexual agenda" and "homosexual lifestyle" about thirty times each with out being challenged EVEN ONCE to explain what those terms mean.

    Nor was she asked to cite her sources for all of her misinformation.

    I thought the Pastor giving the counter argument was weak, ill prepared and poorly articulated.

    Posted by: Zeke | Mar 25, 2008 11:18:34 PM


  23. Though the gay Pastor made some nice points, he mostly wasted the opportunity. Would that he were better versed in how to respond to such silly though powerful people like Kern. I'm disappointed that he somehow believes that using alternative biblical interpretations is a winning approach when challenging bigots. He was given a public platform to spread the message that gay people are in fact fully human and to refute the weak arguments used against us; he failed miserably.

    Here's what the Pastor ought to have said and what you ought to say when confronting one of the advocates of the anti-gay fundamentalist religious industry:

    (looking at Kerns)

    Let me make this very clear: homosexuals are natural normal whole beautiful positive contributing law-abiding citizens. We love fully and our families are fully loved. That's the truth. Period. End of subject.

    But for your sake, just this once, I'll go on:

    Some texts in the Bible are ignorant and barbaric, surely reflecting the ancient times in which they were written. Think stoning, slavery, divorce, and yes homosexuality. No fair minded intelligent person would disagree with me on that. If you disagree Ms. Kern, as I'm sure you do, you are simply a hypocrite.

    Furthermore, by promoting the idea that gay people are inherently inferior Ms. Kern, you madam are a supremacist. And like many supremacists, you wish to segregate, dehumanize, vilify and scapegoat those you deem of lesser status. Your descendants will assuredly be ashamed of you.

    Ms. Kern, how can I say this more plainly: your hateful words have encouraged the gay bashers out there; your hateful words have given them more power. I hope that one day you will understand the great injustice and the great slander you've perpetrated against millions upon millions of fellow citizens and that you will sincerely repent. I wish that for you personally with all of my heart.

    (looks into the camera)

    I ask all fair minded compassionate Oklahomans to reject the bigoted irrational supremacist views of Ms. Kern and people like her, not for my sake but for the sake of your gay family members, friends, coworkers, fellow parishioners and neighbors. Isn't it time we say no, once and for all, to those who ask you to believe that anti-gay bigotry is OK if it's sourced in the Bible? Isn't it time we all stood together against all forms of religiously inspired hate?

    I ask all fair minded compassionate Oklahomans to accept what is obvious, that gay people are whole beautiful positive variations of life and that equality is our birthright from time immemorial just as it is yours. Won't you help us in our efforts to correct the exclusionary practices of the past?

    We truly need your help, especially when up against the misguided views of people like Sally Kerns and the religious fundamentalist anti-gay industries which support them.

    I, for one, will no longer participate in any debate which focuses on my worth as a gay human being.

    (turns to Kern)

    Ms. Kern, homosexuality is not a sin nor a sickness. That's the truth. And you can change your bigoted supremacist views. That's also the truth. Good luck, think about all that I've said, and be well.

    (turns to the moderator)

    The debate is over.

    Posted by: Seamus | Mar 26, 2008 1:46:54 AM


  24. kern really is talking christian culture. culture involves a human code of behavior, for the benefit of humans. the teachings of christ are about spirit. if our american indian neighbors had been loved as one loves oneself there would not been a genecide.As to those bisexual online like http://BiMingle.com . They show different ideas about it.

    Posted by: Juliet | Mar 26, 2008 5:02:10 AM


  25. I am deeply disappoited that Pastor Jones did not challenge Representative Kern more. He was just too nice to this bigoted, narrow-minded, hateful -- and downright stupid -- individual. She took over the "conversation." I was "fed-up" with the pastor early on, when he allowed her to get away with denying that homosexuals are born that way and that homosexuality is not a "choice." She even denied that all the major medical and psychiatric associations have said that homosexuality is a natural (or God-given, if you will) characteristic -- neither a "sickness" nor a "choice." This woman needs nothing less that a full-scale public humilation from someone with both knowledge and "balls"!

    As a gay Christian, I am always fascinated -- or, I should say, appalled -- when these so-called homophobic "Christians" NEVER cite Gospel passages of what Jesus said. They always quote either Saint Paul or the Torah; they never quote Jesus -- yet they call themselves "Christians." I am a Christian because of the Life and Message of Jesus Christ -- not because of the Laws of the Torah (which ultimately led to the crucifixion of Christ) or the opinions of Saint Paul in his Epistles. As a Christian, the Loving Jesus is the focus of my life -- not the Torah; not the Epistles; and not the modern-day "Bible Thumpers" and their message of hate. Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus Christ condemn me. "Yes, Jesus loves me!"

    Posted by: Clyde | Mar 26, 2008 5:26:22 AM


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