1. akaison says


    a) The little polling that’s been done says African Americans are only 10 points more like to be a yes vote rather than no vote. They make up a rather small portion of the California population which means that number although bad will have a minimum effect on outcomes.

    38 percent does support gay marriage by the way. 48 percent of whites are for it.

    While 10 points is significant, the virulence of gay white views against people of color are out of proportion to the reality that the spread is only 10 points rather than non existent black support of gay rights.

    To be fair to people of color this is in part because we have set ourselves up as other.

    Until the last year or so, I had seen no attempt nationally , and even less locally, to engage minority communities in ways other than what we want.

    The first I ever saw the HRC involved in a black issue is with the Jenna Six. It was a nice change from previous decisions to stay out of other situations. I know that there are new organizations like Soulforce. I know also there is a new organization in the last few years that have grown up to bridge the gap. These are all new, and they after this election, will all need more advocacy and money.

    b) Did you miss the LA Times article which presents a far more complicated view of people of color of faith on this issue? The article talks about how there are black clergy both for and against the measure. Here’s the link:,0,895684.story

  2. Bill Perdue says

    It’s a damn good thing that the National Black Justice Coalition, the NAACP and the unions are intervening on behalf of GLBT folks in the African American and other minority communities. The problem is not with black voters but with Democrats.

    No on 8, because of their ties with Obama and the Democrats are terrified and refuse to denounce the harm done by Obama and Biden when they say that we’re second class citizens who have no right to get married. No on 8 should demand detractions of their bigoted and often repeated prejudicial statements. For those who want to vote their bigotry the words of Obama are all the permission they need.

    The right wing christers in California became hysterical over this question because they think they’re becoming marginalized and they might lose. Their hysteria can and has turned to violence, as the latest [FBI] stats for 2007 show. Although hate crimes as a whole are down significantly hate crimes against LGBT folks are up over 6% because of the bigotry generated by the campaign.

    The situation is not helped by the bigoted remarks of Biden and Chairman Obama who agree with McCain and Paleo that we’re second class citizens. They all say that we have no right to be married because “god’s in the mix”. Bigots always drape themselves in the flag and hold up a cross.

  3. John M says

    I am absolutely baffled by the idea that a black person, or any minority could be for Prop 8. The very same arguments against gay marriage we made against interracial marriage unfortunately not that long ago.

    If I had one question to ask Obama it would be “You say that you oppose gay marriage but support a separate but equal ‘civil partnership’. If we were discussing this 80 years ago when white people were making religious arguments against your right to marry but saying ‘civil partnerships’ were OK, or that separate but equal water fountain was OK, would you have accepted it?”

  4. akaison says

    Maybe what baffles you is that you don’t a) undestand that if you don’t reach out to people then they are going to believe the views that have been presented to you and b) can’t seem to stop trying to make this about Obama rather than the lack of effective advocacy by the gay community. You can’ of course continue to pretend that this is new, and try to shift the discussion to Obama or you can be honest. Frankly, I am not holding my breathe for the later.

  5. Michael Bedwell says

    Thanks to anyone trying to help, but these “ads” on YouTube are worthless at this point. It’s like trying to fight the US Civil War from Mars. TELEVISION and RADIO are the battleground upon which this war is being waged and will be won or lost.

    Fortunately, Ellen’s ad is finally starting to run. It ran at least once last night in the SF Bay Area.

    It happened during the broadcast of “Extra” between 6:30 and 7 pm CA time on Channel 11, the NBC affiliate now operating out of San Jose.

    Wonderful, but what’s strange is that, as of a few minutes ago, there was nothing on the No On Prop 8 site about it finally running.

    But, hopefully, it will repeat again and again and all over the state as DEVASTATING pro Prop 8 ads are still in heavy saturation from at least late afternoon and up to 11 pm at night, with a new one every few days.

  6. JJ says

    First, thank you for keeping that donation link at the forefront. Bravo!

    I wish that these stories rather than throwing the Mormons in the mix would acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of the money for yes on 8 comes from the Mormon church with support of the Knights of Columbus.

    If it weren’t for the Mormons and the Roman Catholic front of the Knights of Columbus there would be no chance for “Yes on 8″. The issue does not really foster the same level of animus among mainstream protestants and even evangelicals.

    I wish the media would focus on the large role of the Mormon and Roman Catholic church in supporting a hateful proposition.

  7. soulbrotha says

    Thank you Akaison! Totally on point!

    I have always wondered how the gay “community” could point a finger at anyone for being intolerant when they are just as racially segregated as straights. You see it from the magazines, gay ads, club events, even Gay “Pride” (Why the hell are there two separate ones?) If you want a dialogue with the African American community, then where is the outreach to them? When AIDS cases are reported, African Americans are always at the top of the list. It’s been that way for years! Yet when it is reported in gay publications, it is downplayed. Where is the urgency to reach out to African-Americans? Is it any wonder that Blacks get pissed off at the “Blacks and gays are in the same boat” analogies?

  8. akaison says

    JJ is exactly right about the source of both the manpower and funding for Yes on Prop 8.

    Soul- I should make it clear that both sides have to reach out to the other. This isn’t a one sides issues. AAs must also understand there were gays who were part of our movement as AAs. But, I don’t like the pretense that some how gays have been fair to AAs for the reasons you cite. There is a lot of racism in the white gay community, and the two negatives- homophobia and racism feed off each other. I mainly have a problem with the Bill Purdue type post where they blame politicians rather than shining a light on own behaviors.

  9. Bill Perdue says

    For narrow partisan reasons Akaison supports Obama, who has openly bigoted views about same sex marriage.

    Akaisons uncritical support of Obama and of the party that gutted ENDA, gave us DADT and DOMA and that ditched the hate crimes bill is shoddy and cowardly.

    And it’s also meaningless, because as soon as Obama takes office he’ll be faced with an economy in shut down mode and a war he cannot win. And since he was elected pandering to bigots he’ll be owned by them.

    Politically the Democrats, and low level shills like akaison are all dinosaurs, all extinct, and all to dumb to figure it out.

    Even more stupidly, akasion apparently believes that if we all attend self criticism session, like the Maoists, then war, bigotry and the recession (maybe a depression)will all magically disappear. Those are the politics of children.

  10. akaison says

    actually bill, I support Obama because I would prefer having something rather than nothing. You would stand on faux principles while denying our ability to get rid of DADT, DOMA, etc in favor of pretending Obama has done nothing at all. I am simply not willing to waste my time with people like you. Nor, am I willing to pretend as you do that the facts are so much against the Democrats as to justify your continued ramblings (so please no 10 pages posts about how I don’t know the facts as you see them). What I also believe is that if you aren’t willing like progressives have to look at yoursself in the mirror to figure out your own shit as a commmunity , then nothing will change. In 2004, the Democrats were pretty much losing things left and right. The change that occured happened because the grassroots decided it was time to change. That same grassroots that you are shitting on now of the Democratic Party gave 200k over at Daily Kos in 2 weeks to No on Prop 8. So, you just keep typing. I am going to continue to pay attention to now,and ignore you here on out.

  11. GregV says

    As a gay, white man, my kercektion has been that racism is not worse, but rather less common, in the openly gay community than in society in general.
    Coretta Scott King was passionate about equal rights for gay people and thanked the gay community for standing by her and Martin Luther King for the black quest for freedom “when they could find few voices for their own.“
    I`m in an interracial relationship, and I feel absolutely confident that if the Mormons were ever to fund a ballot measure to take away mariage rights because of our races, the gay community would be against it by a HUGE margin.
    4 in 1O Alabama voters in the year 2OOO wanted discrimination against interracial couples to be the law. Conversely, I`ve never seen anything but strong support for equal rights for all races among the gay community.

  12. GarthRanzz says

    People who minimize the African-American vote by saying they represent “only” 6% of the CA electorate miss the larger point – that 6% is based on PAST elections not the CURRENT one which has seen a significant rise in the number of African-Americans voting for the first time. Given that all the polls show the “Yes” and “No” vote on Prop 8 to be close and within the margin of error, all you need is a relatively small number of people voting one way to tip the scales.

    Also to be consistent, one would also have to logically argue that since the Black vote matters little to the final outcome, then the gay community should not be doing any outreach to the Black community to get them to vote “No” and should stick to only trying to convince Whites to vote yes.

    And also African-Americans turning out in larger than expected numbers will also not make a difference if Obama ends up winning the Presidential election.

  13. sugarrhill says


    This is about Prop. 8 in CA. This is not a nationwide vote. Even being generous let’s say 100% of the barely 9% of the AA population vote in CA this election. Even if that does happen their impact would be miniscule in comparison to the Latino vote with is about double the AA population in CA. Yes, it sucks that there is a 10% difference in favor of Prop. 8 in the AA community, but the blame will not only be on their shoulders, but also on Latinos and Whites. Why certain posters refuse to spread around the blame is beyond me. Again, and I hate to sound like a broken record, AA didn’t propel this initiative on the ballot and they also didn’t fund the shit out of it. Let’s stop scapegoating for now and really focus on how to defeat this proposition. We can assign blame, accordingly, if it passes.

  14. akaison says


    I am glad you are open minded. But you are wrong, the gay community is exactly like ,and due to its focus on image worse than, the straight community on racism. That’s just a reality. I find it hard to believe you haven’t seen this. Willful blindness isn’t the same thing as a thing not existing. I mean- Condi Rice says she never saw racism either.


    You hit the nail on the head. I suspect the other poster doesn’t care, and is just a race antagonizer. Meaning, your words are going to fall on deaf ears. This is life. It’s easier to blame the “other” than look in the mirror as some posters here would prefer to do. I just had a conversation with yet another gay person today who doesn’t think gay issues are all that important. These are gay people saying this, and yet, I come here, and I read these posts which seem to suggest its an easy question of how to reach out to the black community when we don’t even have our act together in the gay community. I am frankly shocked that the support for No on 8 in the black community is as high as it is given the lack of communication between the two groups. I am curious if one went back to Jim Crow could one find such a high level of whites willing to say they were against Jim Crow down South before it was in vogue to say Jim Crow was wrong?

    I don’t have an answer to that question. I just think people aren’t, as a general rule, in our community willing to do the work. They feel entitled to the rights. TO be fair,w e are entitled to them. But that’s not America. Every minority group has had to fight to be included fully into the American dream. Why we thought we would be any different, I don’t know?

    There are signs of hope. There are a lot of people coming out from all communities, black, white, latino and Asian. Straight and gay. It may happen this time for my friends in CA or it may not , but these people and the numbers (compare this to 2000) give me hope.

  15. Bill Perdue says

    akaison – please, don’t take it personally. I don’t criticize your political fantasies of being saved by the Democrats to bring you around to reality. That won’t happen. I do it because your spineless and clueless identification with one of the two parties of war, bigotry and economic chaos makes you an easy target.

    I hope people raise as much money as possible and volunteer as much as possible to defeat Prop. 8, because Obama’s bigoted remarks are the one thing that could put it over the top.

    McCain is a rancid right-winger with Paleo attached at the hip.

    Obama is Bill Clinton (DOMA, DADT, NAFTA, genocide in Iraq) in drag with a war criminal and bigot named Colin Powell attached at the hip.

  16. sugarrhill says

    BIll: Do something productive for a change instead of posting about the travails of having a two party system in this country. Go out and volunteer, run for elected office, donate money to cause near and dear to your heart. But for Christ’s sake, stop bitching about shit that hasn’t happened yet.

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