Comments

  1. allen says

    We as LGBT members Need to Hit the streets in Protest. Not ONLY voally and organized but him them where it willdo the most hurt. thier Pocket books.
    If Every LGBT member BOYCOTTS EVERY non LGBT Store, Restruarants, etc and NOT give them any of our Monies, If EVERY LGBT Memeber NOT show up for work for two or more Days this would hurt them just as Much.

    WE need to get off of our ASSES and Organize like the AA’s did in the 50’s-60’s. We need to tell our politicians that they WONT get our votes HANDED to them on a SILVER Platter like we have done every year. NO MORE until our voices are heard adn promises Kept we need to Put our foot down even more put our feet up ther asses to get things done for us.
    We can NO longer sit back and wait for everyone else to do our dirty work, We need to take care of it our self.
    Anyone who knows of ANYone in the CLOSET no matter of thier Social status we need to OUT them the more voices the better

  2. Luke says

    Um RJP3, thats huge and false brush you seek to spew hate with towards blacks, maybe a google search of the way the whole state voted against prop 8 would be wise and who put up the money for it and why so few gays actually got out and tried to get the vote to go our way. There are not enough black voters in California to make that much of an impact as this was not a tight race, maybe you should meet some and try and see why they feel the way they do and show them, not all gays are hate filled like the ones seen at the rallies spewing the n-word in LA.

    The glbt community needs allies, not more bigots.

  3. Chris St. Hilaire says

    Just wanted to give credit to the guy who designed the image you posted.
    His name is Nicholas Leggett.
    I have his information if anyone wants to get a hold of him.
    He’s a good guy…

  4. Bading says

    Are there any actions in the environs of New York City that anyone knows of? I know now that just donating $ is not enough. If anyone knows of anything planned in or around NYC, PLEASE, share it here. THANK YOU!

  5. Bading says

    I want to go and burn some buses, overturn cars and break some storefronts. Not that I will, but I feel like it!

  6. says

    How does boycotting the Sundance Film Festival hurt the LDS church in any way? It wasn’t the state of Utah that promoted prop 8, it was the church. Don’t get me wrong – I hate the LDS church more than I used to (which I didn’t think was possible) but the Sundance Film Festival brings tourism to Summit County, a place that voted for Obama 57% to 41%. Don’t punish the wrong people here for the damn church’s actions. By attending and supporting Sundance (and the tourism industry in Utah) you’re supporting the people who put money back into action against the LDS Church.

  7. Jimmyboyo says

    2.7 million mail in and provisional ballot votes still unprocessed in CA comprissing LA, SD, and orange county areas

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/
    7/175631/174/939/657070

    We are down what now? Still around 400,000??

    All thins are possible in an infinite Universe just not probable.

    Grasping at straws but wouldn’t it be just a shit kicker if we pulled ahead and won by 1%

    :-)

  8. says

    I strongly urge the entertainment industry to boycott Sundance.

    I especially urge the Queer Lounge to boycott Sundance.

    I personally will not be supporting any films or sponsors at Sundance. I know that seems minor, but it is important to me.

    Perhaps swag and gift bags are more important to some people than equal rights.

  9. Jimmyboyo says

    STFU vi

    1,000,000+ CA gays aren’t even registered to vote and up to 1/3 of our CA gays didn’t vote.

    Shove reality up your racist ass and STFU

  10. says

    Boycotting the Sundance Film Festival hurts the Democratic, liberal, gay-friendly area of Park City.

    Utah is not the Mormon church.

    Those that are organizing these boycotts would do well to focus their efforts more directly. Blanket boycotts make me think of the crazy right-wingers.

  11. DamonCM says

    Andy.

    Blacks are being harrassed, being called niggers, and told not to go into certain (gay) neighborhoods during these rallies and protests.

    Where is the coverage on that? Why must the ethnic LBGT remain in the shadows?

  12. Leland Frances says

    I am as ecstatic about the election of Barack Obama as anyone, but if the first post is an indication that we are going to have 8-yrs of the ridiculous messianism and hagiagraphy with which some supporters stained his campaign, I’m going to let the dogs out.

    NO this is NOT the first time “sexual orientation” has been a protected class for federal employees. TEN YEARS AGO, President Bill Clinton amended existing Executive Order No. 11,478 to include protection for gay federal employees. And that followed a reaffirmation in 1994 of a 1980 statement by the Office of Personal Management that protections in the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 should be interpreted such that, “applicants and employees are to be protected against inquiries into, or actions based upon, non-job-related conduct, such as religious, community, or social affiliations, or sexual orientation.”

    The problem has been that the Bush Administration, while paying lip service to these, allowed one of their officials to declare that he didn’t recognize them.

    Kudos to Obama, Inc., for reaffirming the policy [and adding gender identity, but a little knowledge is both and dangerous and infuriating thing, even when it comes from the exalted NPR [the poster’s source].

  13. dani h says

    They did discourage us(the volunteers) to say ‘civil right’,or ‘gay’ etc… The moment we’ve given this direction I know something’s up. However, it does not mean I have complied!

  14. says

    The links to stories about Mormons (Sundance and LA Weekly) are not working, maybe it’s just overload…but thanks for all the important information. I’ll be there tomorrow in Silver Lake with my husband. The fight is long and hard, but we will win in the end, by our show of strength, unity, savvy, and refusal to back down.

  15. Invariant Memory says

    You linked to the same “disturbing reports from inside the No on 8 campaign” as Andrew Sullivan. They were bullshit when he posted them and they are bullshit when you link to them.

    For starters, I volunteered in the San Fernando area of LA on election day and of the fourteen polling sites we were at that day, twelve of them were churches or schools. I would be happy to post the entire list, should anyone be interested.

    As for the campaign script, it changed constantly, sometimes from day to day. While we were encouraged not to use the words ‘hate’ and ‘discrimination’, since they tended to make opponents angry and more motivated against us, the words the emailer quotes were in all of the scripts in the four months that I volunteered. The campaign encouraged volunteers to stick to the script while also encouraging them to engage with receptive voters on their own terms once the opening message was conveyed.

    Don’t forget that a script helps people who are nervous about phone-banking (the majority of them, in my experience) and gives them something to fall back on when they get tongue-tied, which was often.

    I have no love for the HRC style of management, but you really do a disservice to the people who came out and volunteered for the campaign by linking to such nonsense.

  16. K says

    So as I’m typing this…there’s a “YES on 8″ protest (after they have already won) occuring in South Central Los Angeles by black leaders and residents who are angered by gays protesting the Mormon church. They all militantly came on camera and said “If gays come to our side of the city, it will not be a healthy safe choice for them!” and everyone cheered. Then a lady hogs in front of the camera and says “A man having sex with another man is not the same as me being a black woman, and I’m disgusted the two are compared!”

    Of course..the gay community has absolutely NO courage to tackle this big elephant in the room. Instead, we have to go after the whites because we know they won’t do anything. The 78% of folks who voted against us, we can’t dare even mention on our blogs because it’s not politically correct.

    While talking about the issue in my Political Science class today, EVERY person in the class had encouraging words for the gay community (asian, old, white, Latino, young) the three people who were very thrilled 8 passed were all African Americans and said “it’s sick. sorry, that’s just messed up” regarding our lifestyle.

    Why do gay men have it convinced in our heads that the African American community (especially black woman)are our allies and best friends?

    When are we going to stop being PC?

  17. Derek in Madison says

    “Sorry to be the buzz-kill at the liberal victory-party, but this election has been a historic nightmare for millions of gay Americans. In Florida, Arizona, and California propositions have been passed to amend state constitutions, permanently enshrining second-class citizenship into law. America has taken a tremendous step backward — actively revoking rights granted to citizens by state constitutions — though you’d never know it from most of the punditry and pontificating.”

    Ya know what, I’ve been incredibly supportive of you all, but this is getting to be a bit much. You’ve forgotten that more than twenty states have already been through what you’re going through. In 2006, Wisconsin was listed amongst a list of other states that it got passed in. We were a list, a “hick state” amongst many others. “Why live there, if they don’t support you?” was a common sentiment. We’ve done our crying, we’ve done our marching, and we’ve been through it. Now, finally, you all are up in arms out in California. Was it because you never though it would happen to you? That you were safe in your “liberal haven” on the west coast? Tell me, “Why live there if they don’t support you?” How dare you try to tell me and the gay citizens of every other state who, for the past fifteen years, as each one of these amendments passed, has had to relive the moment we lost our own rights, that we shouldn’t celebrate the work we did to get Barack Obama elected. We fought within ourselves to enjoy election night, despite the results of Prop 8 because we had already suffered such a devastating blow on what was a monumental night in 2006, here in Wisconsin.

    This post made me want to erupt with anger. With every state that passes these, once you experience what it feels like to lose your rights, we relive where we were, the loved ones we were with, and the partners we embraced when we found out that we’d lost our civil liberties.

    We’re suffering with you, and we’re supporting those of you in CA, FL, AR, and AZ. But don’t any of you dare tell those of us in other states to not celebrate the few joys we come upon.

  18. DamonCM says

    Why aren’t we gay people of color protesting in the streets…for being ignored, treated with complete apathy and being singled out for this mess? Why aren’t we in the streets with our signs and stopping West Hollywood/ Key West/ Montrose/ Boystown/ Chelsea traffic in anger because of the way we’re presently being treated?

    People! WE need to get into the streets!

  19. DamonCM says

    EVERYONE & ANDY

    Why do you stand for this racism?

    K said…

    “Why do gay men have it convinced in our heads that the African American community (especially black woman)are our allies and best friends?”

  20. Giovanni says

    http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/

    I want to be perfectly clear here I am as mad as anyone at the role the black church and its less than 6 perecent of the electorate has played in this fiasco (as angry as I am at the mormons and the white evangelicals and the silly queens who did not vote) but if any one calls me or anyone I know a nigger in West Hollywood this weekend you will get punched. I would do the same to anyone who called me a faggot. How dare you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not your enemy.

    Los Angeles continues to be a mess and if you ask any gay man of color that lives here he will tell you why. This will not happen in NYC.

  21. John M says

    I’m sending in a tip to Andy as well but there is a Dallas protest on Sunday against that church that put that disgusting “Why gay is not O.K.” sign up. I will be there and urge anyone else in the D/FW area to be there as well, the repercussions of Prop 8 are being felt all around the world and if we can make one gay child (And there will be at least one) that is forced to listen to this disgusting hate speech on Sunday feel that he is not alone and there is a whole world out there willing to accept him for who he or she is we will have done our job.

    Signs are highly encouraged, I know I will be bringing a few pointing some of the “Slaves are OK, disobedient kids should be stoned to death, etc” that they like to ignore that are right next to homosexual thing. 10AM, we will be gathering across the street from the entrance on San Jacinto in Downtown Dallas. We need lots of people, gay, straight, bi, transexual to show up and send a clear message that we will not be told that who we are is not OK.

  22. Supporter of NO H8TE says

    Andy I loved that you have been enthused and supportive of Barack’s campaign as an American. I too worked on the campaign and the language to fight Prop 8 was very carefully selectedd and as a gay black man I know why. Black civils rights proacticed pragmatism as we knew yelling logic wouldn;t work for those that don’t like you. I fear many in the gay white community allow their privlege to overlook that lesson. The only reason it was obvious blacks wanted right is cuz our skin united us. Gays divide themselves by race, class and even neighborhoods. Look to all the gays that chose not to vote that day and ALL our brothers and sisters who chose to vote against their kin. This is about religion, not race; this about church out of state!

    No people ever give rights to others – only the court has after long and hard fighting.

    It pains me to see how the news media is using scapegoating to say blacks passed this law and say “see? see how ungrateful they are?” and these understandably angry whites are following suit as if they voted for Barack to get a black man in the White House – BULLSHIT! – that fact is we are not a monolith, any more than whites who happen to be white like the Mormons who funded this whole fiasco. Blame is futile. Once you start comparing black issues to “gay issues” you lose b/c white gay mainstream has never allowed room for black and latino and asian gays in any real way – there are many out black gays who stand up alone without the funding or the general approval of the gay community – so what now?

    The fact that many Black members of the community KNEW this was coming is a sad fact.

    We in the struggle for Equality need to realize 3 practical things:

    1) Blacks alone did not pass Prop 8 – 6% OF THE POPULATION DOESN’T MAKE UP SPIT OF THE PRO PROP 8 51% OF MISINFORMED VOTERS.
    To use racial epithets based on some one’s appearance, to judge by someone’s skin to access their political views only furthers the hateful scapegoating that both people of color & the queer community know too well. We lose visible members and allies. Aren’t we the same community?
    2) The political answer right now is NO – To dismiss the existence of black LGBT people who built much of the queer culture, to identify gay as only white, by calling others with names of hate is no solution.
    3) WE HAVE WORK TO DO – IMAGINE if No On Prop 8 took the many queer groups of color on their offer and request for funds to take this fight to their streets?

    Seems like many Americans have 1 thing in common: We blame those we EXCLUDE.

    Here’s to righting the wrongs that come home to roost – we need each other.

  23. Louis says

    Hey Andy,

    There is a sound of a hurt puppy on your site. It comes on as soon as the page opens. It doesn’t seem like your idea of humor, but in light of Prop 8 seems to be some sort of comment.

  24. K says

    To black gays…and I say this with respect and not a sharp tongue…but why is it you are turning the tables and blamming us (gays) for the black vote against us? Not once have we heard gay blacks say…you know what? it’s wrong that our own people who know what it feels like to be hurt and singled out did the same in return to another enslaved group of society. ALL we’re hearing from gay black individuals is
    “You all had it coming.”
    “It’s your faults”
    “Blacks were sick of the racism in the gay community”
    “You didn’t do enough”

    well, sh*t…with friends like you…

  25. says

    I’m in an interracial relationship. My partner is a person of color. He’s a double minority. That means he has to deal with racism from stupid white people, and homophobia from BOTH stupid white people and stupid people of color.

    Blacks alone shouldn’t be singled out and blamed for passing Prop 8.

    But the blacks who voted yes should damn well know better, and they should be called out as the ignorant, selfish, homophobic hypocrites that they are.

  26. Steven Dawson says

    I just got home from being a part of the vigil in Santa Barbara…about 500 people turned out to state loud and proud that Santa Barbara county voted no on 8. People of all walks shared their stories and opinions in an open forum that included heteros, gays, lesbians, clergymen, elected officials, married couples, parents…it was an inclusive group on citizens. After an hour or so of sharing our points of view, we took the vigil to a State Street and marched in protest of discrimination…in front of the quaint cafes, the lines at the theaters, the tourists and the locals, we chanted, we cheered, we let everyone within eyesight or earshot that 8 is hate and it is wrong.

    We urge everyone here in California to keep your bumper stickers on, to keep your yard signs up…because for us, this fight is not over, the fight for equality.

  27. Supporter of NO H8TE says

    The fact that you say ” blamming us (gays) for the black vote against us?” is so separatist and divisive as if I or others aren’t even included as gays – we are!

    Cut the sole victim shit as if gays of all colors didn’t suffered at the hands of their own communities and 52% of white Californians. We hurt too that some members of our black community voted YES as disadvanted people of the struggle.

    Blacks are being separated from the gay community as scapegoats for a disjointed front LACKING UNITY to stop this measure when many factors are to blame: One being the lack of gay votes of up to 1,000,000, misleading mailers to Barack supporters & higher percentages of support from larger populations like pentecostal Korean-Americans. It should be restated that BLAME IS FUTILE.

    So please take pause as you continue to commit yourself to the idea that all blacks voted this way cuz the news says so – I could name plenty blacks right now that would prove we don’t vote as a monolith.

    The fact that you shaped your mouth to say snidely “well, sh*t…with friends like you…” makes it clear that you, not knowing most black people in CA let alone on the blog, have decided that blacks are not your friends and gays are white. Sad & divisive.

    This was religious, not racial – get your facts straight so we can all learn from this and REGROUP to make marriage for all.

    I also agree with ESTHO.

  28. Giovanni says

    “well, sh*t…with friends like you…”

    K

    Broad strokes are the sloppiest! You clearly don’t have any close gay black friends (if any at all) because if you did you would have a more nuanced opinion as well as some semblance of empathy for someone other than yourself.

    Gay people of color are suffering just as much as you are – and now they are suffering because of you as well.

    With brothers like you…

  29. Tim says

    Hey, all this flailing about casting aspersions on groups for voting YES conveniently ignores the fact that the NO campaign pu-bas ran a reletively lackluster and weak campaign! Where was the outreach to the black and latino communities? Why was there no emphasis on the civil rights implications of the proposition, and absolutly no reference to the Supreme Court’s “Loving” decision of 1967 which outlawed all laws against interracial marriage. There is moral equivalence between that decision and what is trying to be accomplished with gay marriage today. Those might have been more effective strategies for advancing the cause of American civil rights and would have dovetailed nicely with Obama’s message of this election moving the country toward “a more perfect union.” So easy to blame this group or that for the outcome, but when it comes right down to it the nut of it echos McCain. A weak campaign strategy, ineffective rhetoric.
    It might also have something to do with the fact that “gay marriage” was originally a comformist Log Cabin Republican agenda item intended to help gays ascend to normalcy vis a vis straight society. A lot of queers could really give a shit about that, myself included, so in reality that might have tended to dilute interest in and commitment to this effort.
    Fuck marriage. That’s really church domain. A focus on civil unions for all, domestic partnership, civil rights and equality before the law is at the heart of this struggle, so why not fight the battle on that turf.

  30. says

    @Giovanni:

    A WEDDING is a religious ceremony. It carries no legal weight whatsoever.

    A MARRIAGE is a civil contract with the government. It is purely secular.

    A CIVIL UNION is another kind of civil contract, with less legal standing than marriage.

    There are thousands of laws in this country that use the specific legal term “marriage”. Not civil union.

  31. Kevin Cahill says

    I think it’s time to burn a few of those African/Methodist/Baptist churches down. And they should burn down the local HRC while they’re at it for doing such a TERRIBLE job. Ellen Degeneres is a coward. Apparently they all deserve each other.

  32. LightningLord says

    I haven’t seen anyone here saying that the passage of Prop 8 was SOLELY because of Black people. That would truly be scapegoating.

    What I have seen is people expressing astonishment that 70% – SEVENTY PERCENT! – of African-Americans voted to eliminate the civil rights of another group and enshrine discrimination into the state constitution.

    What I’ve also seen is whenever someone points out their astonishment, anger, and dismay at this fact is the attempt to shut them up through shrieking accusations of racism.

    Look people, this is a fact and it is supported not only by the exit polling for Prop 8 but in many reputable public opinion polls related to public attitudes towards gay marriage and homosexuality in general: by and large, African-Americans are, at best, unsupportive of gay rights and, at worst, actively hostile.

    It is not racist or scapegoating to point this out. You can deny it all you want, put your hands over your ears and scream “I can’t hear you!” but it won’t deny that fact.

    The fact that our so-called leaders in the gay community and their lemming followers who would follow them off the edge of a cliff into the abyss of political correctness choose to ignore this basic fact does not make it any less real.

    You can choose to ignore it and continue to face difficulty convincing a portion of the electorate who is motivated more than ever to go out to the polls now that they have experienced what they can do by electing an African-American as President of the United States, or you can acknowledge and address the issue head on by initiating an ongoing dialogue with the African-American community and talking to them in their own language, which, in the area of family and sexuality, is often not spoken about or understood in the abstract language of rights but in the lived experience of religion and morality.

    The choice is yours. Don’t hate the messenger just because you don’t like the message.

  33. k says

    Right now I don’t have an answer — but there are a million questions going through my mind. How was same-sex marriage passed in other countries? What exactly made people realize that it was a human equality issue, even though they may not have ‘approved’ of men marrying men and women marrying women? Some of those countries were not founded on Judeo-Christian values like the US(90% of people believe that), but yet some of them have religion deeply rooted in their society.

    Protests and marches are important because they serve to keep the fight alive, and let the opponents know it is NOT over, even though they are basking in their so-called victory.

    But there is more that needs to be done. I’m not sure that it will be possible to change people’s minds who make their decisions based on what they perceive the Bible to say. I consider the Bible to be irrelevant when it comes to making the laws of this country, but there is a huge majority who don’t think that way.

    There has to be even more separation of religion and the government. If civil unions were made legal (nationally), would that at least be a step toward what we want to achieve? Some people say that it should be marriage equality or nothing, but I just don’t see that happening. I was not surprised at all that Prop 8 passed. So if the focus is shifted to a government recognition of a partnership (civil union, so to speak), is that what we should fight fot?

    Again, just a lot of questions… no solutions tonight.

  34. k says

    Right now I don’t have an answer — but there are a million questions going through my mind. How was same-sex marriage passed in other countries? What exactly made people realize that it was a human equality issue, even though they may not have ‘approved’ of men marrying men and women marrying women? Some of those countries were not founded on Judeo-Christian values like the US(90% of people believe that), but yet some of them have religion deeply rooted in their society.

    Protests and marches are important because they serve to keep the fight alive, and let the opponents know it is NOT over, even though they are basking in their so-called victory.

    But there is more that needs to be done. I’m not sure that it will be possible to change people’s minds who make their decisions based on what they perceive the Bible to say. I consider the Bible to be irrelevant when it comes to making the laws of this country, but there is a huge majority who don’t think that way.

    There has to be even more separation of religion and the government. If civil unions were made legal (nationally), would that at least be a step toward what we want to achieve? Some people say that it should be marriage equality or nothing, but I just don’t see that happening. I was not surprised at all that Prop 8 passed. So if the focus is shifted to a government recognition of a partnership (civil union, so to speak), is that what we should fight fot?

    Again, just a lot of questions… no solutions tonight.

  35. Jimmyboyo says

    HERE HERE TIM!!!!

    Common sense would have told HRC and others to do at least 1 prominent commercial on the Loving case tieing our plight together with the racism of the past (sadly quite a part of present day gay community it seems . Our current supposed gay leaders failed us completely.
    ——————————

    That said, the raicism flaring up within our community is shameful and appears to be coming mostly from log cabinites feeling it is now ok to let loose their racist BS due to current circumstances.

    Almost every example of racism from a gay man all seem to be coming from those who in the past praised mcshame and the whole neo con agenda.

    Well it is not OK you small minded fucks. OUR gay leaders in CA failed us, WE failed ourselves, etc End of story.

    The Black church folk are only going to solidify their opinions of us due to your attitudes and BS.

    Our own fucking brothers and sisters of color are becoming afraid to walk freely, safely, and happily through our areas. That is despicable. This white boy won’t stand for it

    We the gay community failed on prop 8………. end of subject. Time to fix that by going to the courts and prepping our GOTV ground game for 2 yrs hence when we can put our own initative on the ballot if the courts fail us.

    Take the racism and shove it back up your neocon racist asses.

  36. Compec says

    LIGHTNINGLORD: Your words should be sent out in a mass email to every gay blogger. So well said, so articulate, so factual, and so needed.
    I resent being made to feel guilty over someone else choosing to vote on hate.
    There is wide spread dismay of the gay community in the African American community, and it’s not because of anything we’ve inflected on the African American community (more so than any other group of people). The frustration toward that 70% is well reasoned and justified.

  37. sfnative64 says

    Ok Folks,

    Here’s the deal; I know that there are hundreds of thousands of people [perhaps even millions] who are outraged at the legislation of discrimination that Prop 8 and it’s supporters have brought about. So….

    [Preface] have any of you seen the movie “A Day Without a Mexican” ?

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0377744/

    What if WE [the LGBTQ population] took a REAL STAND HERE and used this as an example of what WE CAN DO?

    What if WE LIVED the Obama creed “YES WE CAN” and took matters into our OWN HANDS and organized a day in which EVERY [LGBTQ Person] took 24 hours off of work, closed down businesses, ceased using credit cards, ceased shopping, etc…..to show our solidarity and to show that this state and this country CANNOT do without us.

    *Of course there are long-term things that we can do as far as boycotting businesses, etc. are concerned. This idea is just one more thing that we can add to the arsenal*

    If the rest of the population wants the services that we provide as a population, then they need to GIVE US OUR RIGHTFUL equality.

    I think that we CAN and SHOULD do this.

    What do you all think?

    Pass this on to EVERYONE THAT YOU KNOW WHO YOU FEEL SUPPORTS OUR RIGHT TO EQUALITY
    [In other words your friends…because let’s face it. If someone you know thinks of you as a second or third-class citizen, then they are NOT your friend]

    Peace and Love to All

  38. JC says

    Right now all we are doing is the same thing the Republicans are doing. Creating a circular firing squad and shooting ourselves. This is not my idea of how to run a railroad or a grassroots protest movement. Let’s get some facts and solutions into this discussion and get away from the mutual nastygramming.

    1. The African-American community (and the Latino community) need more grassroots outreach. Education is the only thing that is going to thaw this iceberg and driving a wedge in between gay people of color and others is not a really good idea.

    2. The HRC style of management of our rights and issues has merit in some areas, but I view their efforts over the years to be wholly inadequate in getting the average LGBT person fully involved in the process of securing our rights. HRC, GLAAD and the like are terrific at addressing the “insider” approach, but they cannot haul the freight for us. We have to be active and involved, just writing a check and putting a bumper sticker on a car is not nearly enough for this.

    3. An embarassing number of LGBT folks did not even bother to get out and vote. How can we say we are repressed whenever we don’t get out and defend ourselves? As much as it pains me to say this, it took something like this to galvanize our community.

    4. I KNEW we were in trouble when the No on 8 campaign, couldn’t even come up with a coherent message and changed tack less than two weeks until the election. What makes this even worse is that EVERYONE gave their spare dollars to the Obama campaign, and this left not a lot in the pot for fundraising our self-defense. I do not begrudge us the effort to elect Barack Obama, he is the first candidate I have felt a genuine sense of pride in voting for, but we need to prioritize better.

    5. We need to target the LDS Church and make them pay a heavy price for their actions, not only that but tactically boycott every Church and Mormon owned major corporation.

    6. We need to hold our politicians collective feet to the fire, we have some pretty good allies here like State Sen-Elect Mark Leno and LA Councilman/Council President Eric Garcetti, but we must make clear that half-measures are no longer acceptable. I am sick of hearing equivocating on their part. Civil Unions are NOT acceptable anymore. It gives legislatures and elected officials the opportunity to not give us all of the rights we are LEGALLY and CONSTITUTIONALLY entitled to. This is a civil rights issue and I don’t care how bad certain evangelical and organized churches get their feelings hurt.

    This is nothing less than an attack on us, ALL of us. Pointing fingers at subgroups inside the LGBT community is pretty darn foolish. This fight will be hard and we need everybody to pull their weight.

    A final note, we need to hold our interest groups accountable for their actions. From now on, I will be insisting on a report of how they are spending the money I donate. I encourage you all to do so as well.

    Please think about what I have posted this morning. I think we have the chance to advance this fight onto their side of the field, and we can’t do that fighting each other.

    JC
    Los Angeles, CA

  39. MP says

    I think the protests are great, it is bringing the gay community together, which it hasn’t been in a long time. However, even though the Mormon’s orchestrated the movement for the passage of proposition 8, they were not the only church involved. There are those saying we need to protest against black and latino churches, they are correct in a way, but don’t throw race into the fight, keep it at the churches, like the Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. they were the ones preaching from the pulpit. They are the ones that need to be protested against. There is no such thing as the black or latino church; that might be the congregations make-up, but the clergy are the ones who drilled it into their congregations head. The congregations were told that this came down from GOD!!!

  40. dennis says

    If you are gay and living anywhere in the United States and you did not vote in this election, what is is your problem? I suspect you are not reading this because you must not have access to a computer.
    Get access, get off your butts and do something meaningful for yourself and the other people in this country who consider you a family member. The problem with the failure of No on 8 in CA was not the AA vote, the problem was the voter turnout of the gay vote.

  41. Bading says

    I will be in front of the Public Affairs Office of the LDS Church at noon today, Saturday 11/08/08 at 125 columbus and 65th St. with a sign. Anyone is welcome to join!

  42. DamonMD says

    “LIGHTNINGLORD: Your words should be sent out in a mass email to every gay blogger. So well said, so articulate, so factual, and so needed.
    I resent being made to feel guilty over someone else choosing to vote on hate.
    There is wide spread dismay of the gay community in the African American community, and it’s not because of anything we’ve inflected on the African American community (more so than any other group of people). The frustration toward that 70% is well reasoned and justified.”

    Many of the gay blacks on here have repeatedly denounced black homophobia but whenever anyone has mentioned gay racism toward ethnic minorities…nothing but rancor.

    There’s been reports that black people have been called racial slurs and threatened with violence at anti-prop 8 rallies…and what is there from all of you? Silence.

    I plan on writing a lengthy essay on the history of racism in the gay community. I think sending it to every right-wing columnist, conservative organization, anti-gay groups, large influential churches, is going to be the only way to get us talking about it.

    Is there anyone else out there who’d like to join me in constructing such a project?

  43. D.R.H. says

    From my limited observations, I think that the reason the AA community is so offended that we compare our struggle to theirs is because they feel that our sexuality is a choice whereas their skin color is not. Perhaps we need to try to educate.
    Also, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms lists sexual orientation as a protected class. This was the legal premise that our Supreme Court used to legalize same-sex marriage. Maybe gay Americans could/should be fighting for sexual orientation to be added to the Constitution as a protected class. A “back-door” approach, pardon the pun.

  44. K says

    Damond, then you are absolutely no better than someone who gay bashed, used the word faggot toward a gay individual and voted YES on 8- all in same day. To throw another dart at a community…YOUR community…that is already down, shows the level of spite you must have trapped inside you. We are an angry people (with every right to be). We’re not angry at black people, but the black people who voted against gay rights. We’re not angry at white people, but the whites who voted against us. We’re not angry at every person who attends church, we’re angry at churchgoers who strip our rights. Put it in pespective and stop trying to play victim toward a minority group who truly ARE victims of hate this week. Gays do not have any resent for our gay black brothers & sisters. We love you, need you, want you to fight with us. But you going and threatening to email Fox News some selacious sketchy piece on how shady we are? In the infamous words of our greatest detractors “I’ll say a prayer for you”

  45. P in Hartford says

    I was overjoyed about Obama’s victory but prop 8 was a bitter pill in deed. It’s ironic that what put him in the Whitehouse – the swelling of African American votes – also helped prop 8’s success. It’s an important lessen for us. While we had to get the rats out, the Democratic party is not necessarily any better than the republican on what’s best for gays. I believe we would have fared just as well in a room of red necks or republicans as with African American voters –I’m sure we could find 3 in 10 rednecks or republicans that would support gay marriage. I can now see the Log Cabin perspective and no longer call myself Democrat (instead independent) and my best self interest will dictate future voting.

  46. Chris says

    Is there a poll – a not flawed one – which is showing that 70 % percent of African-Americans voted yes? I don’t think so.

    Stop that racist BS. You can’t win that way.

  47. Micah J. says

    “We’re not angry at black people, but the black people who voted against gay rights.”

    That’s certainly not the message I’m getting from the racial taunts and overall nastiness being lobbed by white gays right now. When one uses racial epithets, it’s a condemnation of the entire race, not those of that race who voted Yes on 8.

    Maybe you aren’t one of those people but your message sure is getting drowned out by those who choose the hateful, radical approach. Sort of like Islam and the fundamentalists vs. the moderates: we all know who won the PR battle on that front.

    Next time it will probably be 85% blacks voting to keep gay marriage because of an ignorant few who can’t see that they’re better off working to get it down to 55% instead.

  48. Micah J. says

    “Next time it will probably be 85% blacks voting to keep gay marriage”

    rather,

    “Next time it will probably be 85% blacks voting against gay marriage”

  49. Jimmyboyo says

    K

    You are hopelessly naive.

    Racism is rampant within our community and should be blasted. Not just racism towards our AA brothers and sisters but also towards Latino gays, asian gays, basically anyone not fitting a white twink model (from someone who is quite twinkish myself)

    ——————–

    Damond

    I wouldn’t say “sillent”. I for one have not, am not, and will not be silent in repudiating the racism within our community.

    lacking??? YES Not silent my friend. Sadly lacking though

    ———————-

    Help with the court actions. Donate to the legal funds

    Start prepping our GOTV for 2 yrs hence.

    Our votes and our votes alone could have won this thing. Register voting age gays and make sure our own get to the polls.

  50. Giovanni says

    “I can now see the Log Cabin perspective and no longer call myself Democrat (instead independent) and my best self interest will dictate future voting.”

    Well, that’s great P but you do realize that if Obama lost Prop 8 still would have been on the ballot. And most certainly, given the poor performance of the no on 8 campaign, still would have passed.

    You now would have an apathetic war monger, an intellectually challenged fundamentalist who believes the earth is 5000 thousand years old, and a right wing agenda in the white house looking out for your best interest.

    Perhaps you should wait until Obama actually becomes president and has a chance to do something positve such as repeal DOMA and DADT (among other things) before you go purchasing your luxury log cabin – assuming you have not already moved in.

    California was a setback for us and there is much work to be done with community out reach being near the top of the list – do something constructive not destructive.

    March with your held high but keep your dignity and a working moral compass with you.

  51. Wheezy says

    Queer is not a color. LBGT are every race, color, creed, religion, sex, ancestry, disability, or national origin. It is not White only…black homophobia hurts black LBGT the most. The only reason White LBGT have finally noticed black homophobia is because it finally effected them. Otherwise there would be no out cry over it.

    As for homophobia in the Black, Asian, Hispanic population passing Prop 8 in California, perhaps before the election some one should have pointed out a few facts about their Mormon allies:

    A few quotes from Brigham Young:

    “You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham…” (New York Herald, May 4, 1855, as cited in Dialogue, Spring 1973, p.56)

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)

    My mother is not Mormon, but grew up surrounded by them. Do you know why they have so many kids? Not because birth control is a sin, but because they want to preserve the “pure, white race from the N***** who are breeding like rats.” And yes, that is a real quote from a real Mormon.

  52. LightningLord says

    To those who say the African-American vote didn’t make a difference in the passage of Prop 8 because Blacks make up such a small proportion of the overall electorate…

    Does that mean that the gay and lesbian vote doesn’t make a difference either? After all, GLBT voters make up an even smaller # of the electorate than Black voters.

    And yet many people here are blaming gay people themselves for not getting their asses to the polls and arguing that was to blame for Prop 8 passing. Yet how can this be so if your argument is that the votes of such small minority groups ultimately doesn’t matter in the big picture?

    Really, guys, you need to think these things through before you put them out there.

  53. LightningLord says

    >>Is there a poll – a not flawed one – which is showing that 70 % percent of African-Americans voted yes? I don’t think so.
    Posted by: Chris | Nov 8, 2008 9:26:23 AM

    In what way was the exit poll showing 70% AA support for Prop 8 “flawed?” Specifically, what aspect of the methodology is “flawed?”

    If the exit poll had shown 70% of AAs had voted No on 8 would you also be arguing that the poll was “flawed?” Or are polls “flawed” only when you dislike the results?

  54. LightningLord says

    >>Many of the gay blacks on here have repeatedly denounced black homophobia but whenever anyone has mentioned gay racism toward ethnic minorities…nothing but rancor. I plan on writing a lengthy essay on the history of racism in the gay community. I think sending it to every right-wing columnist, conservative organization, anti-gay groups, large influential churches, is going to be the only way to get us talking about it.

    Right. Because when Black people vote to strip gay people of civil rights, it’s gay people’s fault. There’s that lovely liberal logic again.

    I’ll bet you also think Jews have only themselves to blame for the Holocaust.

  55. glennmcgahee says

    While putting the blame on Mormons, lets also remember your unconditional support of Obama and Biden who also stated that they beleived marriage sacred and between 1 man and 1 woman. Do you expect a different outcome when you support those who would not support you and say so publicly? The Gospel Tour, The Faith Tour, Expansion of Bush’s Faith Based Initiative. I call those red flags. Here in Florida, it was Obama supporters who put Amendment 2 over the top and not only bans gay marriage but also anything similar like civil unions. I’ve been screaming at you throughout this campaign that Obama is not your friend. But you got credentials from his camp and fell in love for a little attention his campaign gave you. When will we stop supporting those who do not support us.

  56. Josh says

    We need to have peaceful sit ins and equality marches.

    We need to continue to have pro-tests and marches, In California and other places.

    We also need to boycott all the anti-gay groups, churches, and businesses.

    We need to call upon all gays and gay friendly people.

    This is going to come down to who is for equal rights and who is against it.

  57. says

    “I haven’t seen anyone here saying that the passage of Prop 8 was SOLELY because of Black people. That would truly be scapegoating.”

    Actually, Lightninglord, many people here and on other blogs have either been saying or implying exactly that. These people keep throwing around the 70% AA Yes vote without ever mentioning, for instance, the mostly white and more numerically significant 81% Republican Yes vote. I’ve read countless times that it was the Obama-supporting AA vote that put 8 “over the top.” But why was it the AA vote rather than Mormon $, gay apathy, poor No organization, religious voters in general? The power and money behind 8 is largely white. And this white power base is what put 8 on the ballot in the first place.

    Does that excuse black people who voted in favor of 8? Certainly not. We should absolutely acknowledge and learn from the disproportionate Yes vote within the relatively small (in overall numbers) black community. I think some people are scapegoating blacks because they are racist. Others are lashing out in anger because they believe black people, with their own history of discrimination, should “know better.” Hey, we voted for Obama, why shouldn’t they vote for us? But most of us didn’t vote for Obama because he’s black, and a lot of religious black people don’t recognize parallels between our communities, even if they’re obvious to us. For those of us who believe in equal rights for ALL minorities, it’s understandable to be hurt by the black vote, but it’s naive, if one is aware of history and context, to be shocked by it.

    Demonizing all black people–as some are doing–causes unnecessary rifts between black and white LGBT people, removes the real demon from the debate (religion-based intolerance), and–like all blame–is a distraction from moving forward on marriage. I hope progress can be made within the black community via more effective outreach and education, but, as with white people, religion is a huge obstacle. That said, some of our staunchest allies have been people like Coretta Scott King, Deval Patrick, and David Paterson. Wanda Sykes is one of the most visible celebrity allies, protesting the Yes vote like the rest of us.

    On a side note, it needs to be made a lot clearer that we are fighting for is secular CIVIL marriage not religious marriage. People, gay and straight, may choose to have a religious marriage ceremony, but that has no legal standing and shouldn’t be part of the debate. (Tho of course the religious zealots make it part of the debate.) It’s where the word marriage gets sticky, because people falsely equate it with religion, which is why the “civil” part of it can’t be over emphasized.

  58. Craig says

    Allen, boycotting every straight business isn’t right. A huge percentage of them – remember almost half – sided with us. Cultivate more straight allies – don’t turn them against us.

    I’ve had conversations this week with several straight people about the election (I’m in Arizona so we lost too). All of them have been positive.

    We need to build more bridges. This is an education problem.

    I agree with you however on targeting every last one of the businesses involved that spoke out against us. But for heaven’s sake go and tell the ones that supported how grateful we are. That’s even more important. Tell them you’re buying from them BECAUSE they support us.

    At AIDSWalk here in Tucson, I had a chance to do just that with Wells Fargo, my bank. I picked the oldest looking one out of their group of walkers, went up to him and told him how proud I was to bank with them because of their respect for diversity and their volunteering for this event. Turns out he was their vice president of community relations and he was delighted to hear it. Speak up and defend those that are with us!

  59. says

    “Here in Florida, it was Obama supporters who put Amendment 2 over the top and not only bans gay marriage but also anything similar like civil unions.”

    Glenn, you consistently bash Obama, yet never say who would have been better for gay people. McCain/Palin? (Of course you know that Obama supports CUs, McCain did not.) Obviously, their policies were far more anti-gay, but, fortunately, we won’t get to see them implemented. I’m also wondering why it’s specifically Obama supporters who put Amendment 2 “over the top”? As opposed to McCain supporters, or Republicans, or the religious? Randomly handpicking the voters who put things “over the top” reveals nothing but your prejudices. And, btw, my condolences on the Obama victory. I know it pains you, but most of us–despite setbacks at the state level–are very happy with this outcome. We believe Obama will be better for people, gay, straight, and everything in between.

  60. Sebastian says

    On my way to the Castro last night, a older black lady asked me on the train if I was going out to have a fun Friday, I told her I was on my way to a protest about Prop 8. She say “oh” that, I said yes “that.” She said she didn’t vote yes or no on it, as she thought it was white gay folks business, to me a white man no less, and she wasn’t sure what it really meant although she had nothing against gays which many here in SF feel.

    This is the crux of it, we have to explain to people of color and even the kooks in the churches that its not just white gay’s who will benefit from fairness and equality. Education is the only thing that is going to change peoples misconceptions and stereotypes.

    And, we have to call out the gay men who are spewing hate as well, until we as gay people of all colors band together, the hate will never stop. And, the No on 8 people can also be blamed for not putting out the best reasons why not to vote NO on 8.

    And, I also blame the Supreme Court of California for doing the same thing they have done in every state in this country, put out a ruling on this right before a major election.

  61. Chris says

    Well, Lightninglord, if a poll is flawed doesn’t necessarily show up in the percentages it shows. Look at the methodology.

    70 % of CNN-selected AAs voted Yes, not 70 % AAs. I ask seriously: Why do you trust CNN? Why do you repeat CNN partially without giving full information about this poll? (It’s not flawed, it’s pure BS.)

    @Blog owner:
    It’s time to do a post about this issue if you look at the comments here.

    Read that:
    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

  62. RJP3 says

    Uh LUKE that HUGE BRUSH stroke was only directed at Anti-Gay black people so the brush stroke was not any wider than the huge margin it was directed at 70 percent of black voters.

    It seems my comment was deleted my master Andy Towle — but since you responded I will repeat … the only thing worse that a Gay Republican is a Black Person who Votes To Repeal The Rights of Another Minority Group.

    As descendents of Slaves for the most part it was expected by many – falsely – that this same group that had religion enslave them would not fall to the same tactics to enslave another group.

    I never say they were the deciding vote – sorry my comments were not PC enough for you or this website — but I stand by them.

    Also deleted was the good news I shared that the wonderful Black man I helped elect President has promised to change Federal Hiring Standards to include protections for Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity.

    The PC crowd can not handle the truth.
    I can.

  63. Chris says

    Ok, after reading more comments on other sites I’m convinced that those commenters are just too stupid to understand that a poll (especially one with a bad sample) isn’t reflecting the real numbers of votes.

    If cheap exit polls would reflect reality …

  64. RJP3 says

    OH yes — black people are uniformed low-information – ignorant.

    And it is our job to educate them it seems –
    as they ignore ignore the teachings of CORRETTA SCOTT KING herself … so we might have a bit of a hard time doing that.

    This is not about being gay or being black – this is human nature – the last minority group kept down always pounces on a new group to keep themself protected. We are now down to gays and the black community is just acting like common human beings – and many suspected better of that group. That is where the disappointment and attention on that group comes from.

    White people were not taught by blacks that slavery was wrong – they figured it out themselves.

    Black people should not have to be taught that keeping gay people down is wrong – they are of equal intellect as a people are they not ?

  65. LightningLord says

    >>Well, Lightninglord, if a poll is flawed doesn’t necessarily show up in the percentages it shows. Look at the methodology. 70 % of CNN-selected AAs voted Yes, not 70 % AAs. I ask seriously: Why do you trust CNN? Why do you repeat CNN partially without giving full information about this poll? (It’s not flawed, it’s pure BS.)

    Then by that logic why do you trust any poll which is based on those who chose to participate in it? CNN did not “select” the people who answered the poll and somehow force them to give an answer. The people who agreed to participate in the poll self-selected to participate in the poll – a “flaw”, if you want to call it that, with any public opinion poll.

    Why do I tend to believe rather than disbelieve the poll? Methodology aside, there have been many other public opinion polls about attitudes towards gay rights and homosexuality which also show that, in general, African-Americans are one of the least likely groups to support gay marriage, and are significantly more opposed to gay marriage than whites. When you see a finding in one poll that seems to be repeated in other, earlier polls, then that seems to indicate that the finding of the latest poll fits with reality.

    The CNN poll also showed that voters under 30 voted overwhelmingly No on 8. Is that finding also “flawed?” Or are only the findings you disagree with “flawed?”

  66. Chris says

    Rjp3, being too stupid to understand a poll has nothing to do with truth. You’re argumenting in a Bill O’Reilly style.

  67. Micah J. says

    How do the Log Cabin types think they can use this as a recruiting tool when the forces behind Yes on 8 itself were overwhelmingly Republican? It’s not like the black church rose up out of nowhere and poured tens of millions of dollars into the effort.

    Are we to believe that the Latter Day Saints aren’t on your side? They sure as hell weren’t Obama supporters.

    From what I see, it’s conservatives who celebrate the idea that “blacks stopped gay marriage.” The Weekly Standard, The National Review, Newsmax.com and the Fox News Channel are all giddy about it. Not progressives. I’m somehow better off rubbing shoulders with these people?

    I’d rather take my chances convincing a slice of the progressive electorate than abandoning the ship altogether and joining the Log Cabin crowd.

  68. RJP3 says

    Chris – so we should not believe the poll that 70% of the black voting public in California voted for Prop 8 ?

    Is that what you are saying?

    I am fully aware that 30% voted NO — and not all black people voted.

    I am just saying there is disappointed that the black community did not elevate itself to a higher standard after the success of the civil rights movement.

    Do you want to ignore that ?

    LGBT equality

    King with President George W. Bush.On April 1, 1998 at The Palmer House Hilton in Chicago, King called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood”, King stated. “This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group.”

    In a speech in November 2003 at the opening session of the 13th annual Creating Change Conference, organized by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, King made her now famous appeal linking the Civil Rights Movement to the LGBT agenda: “I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people. … But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’ I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream, to make room at the table of brotherhood and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.”

    King’s support of LGBT rights was strongly criticized by some black pastors. She called her critics “misinformed” and said that Martin Luther King’s message to the world was one of equality and inclusion.

    In 2003, she invited the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force to take part in observances of the 40th anniversary of the March on Washington and Martin Luther King’s “I Have A Dream” speech. It was the first time that an LGBT rights group had been invited to a major event of the African American community.

    On March 23, 2004, she told an audience at Richard Stockton University in Pomona, N.J, that same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue. King denounced a proposed amendment advanced by President George W. Bush to the United States Constitution that would ban equal marriage rights for same-sex couples. In her speech King also criticized a group of black pastors in her home state of Georgia for backing a bill to amend that state’s constitution to block gay and lesbian couples from marrying. King is quoted as saying “Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union. A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriage.”

  69. JC says

    I’m going to add some thoughts because I believe certain elements of this discussion have gotten out of hand.

    IF we plan on making this movement legitimate, we have to set a primary goal of education alongside our protest actions. Both inside our community and outside.

    While I do not emotionally ken why anyone would be a Log Cabin Republican, I do understand that they are our LGBT brothers and sisters. We need to make absolutely certain we leave no ally behind. There will be time for internal philosophical discussions later.

    For the record I am not happy with the half measures that the Democrats have taken over the years regarding our civil rights. But in a two party system, they are the better choice. It is our job to sit down with them and educate them, put their feet to the fire when they put off our issues and make it clear that in no uncertain terms we are a constituency of their party that will not accept not being given support in our struggle for full inclusion.

    We need to cultivate Republicans who support us. It is not directly their fault that the ideologues run their party. Remember when we as Democrats felt the party was servicing only a small percentage of it’s constituency? Guess what, the Republicans are now at that place. Trust me, the intellectual conservatives know that the ideologues are destroying their party.

    We need to develop an aggressive grassroots strategy, and execute it with smart tactics. We cannot afford to paint each other with a broad brush. This means bringing in all gay people of color and discuss with them the best way of addressing our civil rights within their ethnic group.

    We do need to continue to protest and stand up aggressively for our rights. We need to boycott in an effective way.

    But we cannot do it seperate from each other, we need to do this together.

    JC
    Los Angeles.

  70. Chris says

    You can’t argument that the poll results must be true because they are welcome. This doesn’t give them any credibility.

    Or short: You want to believe.

    Not every poll is “flawed” in the same way and amount because it relies on people cooperating. This is a whole science. It depends for example on how and when and where people are asked. Then it is very important how large your sample is and CNN’s was ridiculously small.

    And it would be easier if you just read the blog post at DailyKos. And you should learn that all those polls and studies aren’t just true.

  71. gerr says

    Ernie,

    Wondering what your definition of racist is exactly, because it seems that your interpretation of it includes “anyone who criticizes people of another race for any reason”. If that is the case, then we are all racists, except for you, of course.

    Also, your statements–“…a lot of religious black people don’t recognize parallels between our communities, even if they’re obvious to us. For those of us who believe in equal rights for ALL minorities, it’s understandable to be hurt by the black vote, but it’s naive, if one is aware of history and context, to be shocked by it.” conveniently omit a staked-out position about whether these black religious people SHOULD see the parallels. Care to be a little more clear?

  72. Chris says

    Yes, my statement is that if we don’t have a better made poll we just have no data to talk about except the final result.

    You could question all ethnic groups now, but I guess they know now that yes isn’t a welcome answer.

    So, yeah, I think you have no base for this kind of rants against some imaginary 70 %.

  73. LightningLord says

    >>You can’t argument that the poll results must be true because they are welcome. This doesn’t give them any credibility. Or short: You want to believe.

    By the same toke, you can’t argue that the poll results are NOT true because you find them UNwelcome. Or short: You don’t want to believe because you don’t like the results.

    And again: Do you also dismiss the poll results showing that young voters (under 30) voted overwhelmingly against Prop. 8? If so, why? If not, why not?

  74. John in CA says

    I’m willing to give Obama a chance. I’m even willing to temper my disdain for Pelosi and Reid during the next two years.

    But if I don’t see any progress by November 2010, then I’m going to vote straight Republican. And I will encourage everyone I know to come out for the mid-term elections and tell these Democrats exactly what we think of them. At the very least, I would expect the Matthew Shepard Act and ENDA to be a done deal by that time. I’m certainly not going to take the liberals’ “maybe we’ll deal with gay issues after we win 300 seats” anymore.

    NO…YOU’LL DEAL WITH IT NOW.

    We’ve taken one for the team too many times already.

  75. RJP3 says

    IN THE FUTURE quotes from Corretta Scott King should be used to educate the Black community to gain civil equality.

    we had this as part of history and fact and Mrs. King still has relevance and is known for now … why was this opportunity missed?

    On April 1, 1998 at The Palmer House Hilton in Chicago, King called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood”, King stated. “This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group.”

    In a speech in November 2003 at the opening session of the 13th annual Creating Change Conference, organized by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, King made her now famous appeal linking the Civil Rights Movement to the LGBT agenda: “I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people. … But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’ I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream, to make room at the table of brotherhood and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.”

    King’s support of LGBT rights was strongly criticized by some black pastors. She called her critics “misinformed” and said that Martin Luther King’s message to the world was one of equality and inclusion.

    In 2003, she invited the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force to take part in observances of the 40th anniversary of the March on Washington and Martin Luther King’s “I Have A Dream” speech. It was the first time that an LGBT rights group had been invited to a major event of the African American community.

    On March 23, 2004, she told an audience at Richard Stockton University in Pomona, N.J, that same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue. King denounced a proposed amendment advanced by President George W. Bush to the United States Constitution that would ban equal marriage rights for same-sex couples. In her speech King also criticized a group of black pastors in her home state of Georgia for backing a bill to amend that state’s constitution to block gay and lesbian couples from marrying. King is quoted as saying “Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union. A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriage.”

  76. Chris says

    You’re not getting it. I dismiss the poll because it’s been carried out in a poor way.

    If the results were welcome most of us don’t look up how the poll has been conducted. Which is actually wrong and explains why we are regularly shocked about the outcome of such ballots: We believed poor polls or ignore the uncertainty of every poll because we just want to.

    And yes, I dismiss the poll result about young voters but not in a way that I think the opposite is true. I think “no sufficient data available”. If you trust that you’re building the fundament of the next defeat.

    But I think (or want to believe that) there are better polls showing the same about young voters.

  77. Chris says

    Then try to educate African-Americans and (which is much more important) Hispanics about our issues, but please select non-racist LBGT people for the job or it will backfire.

  78. Micah J. says

    “But if I don’t see any progress by November 2010, then I’m going to vote straight Republican. And I will encourage everyone I know to come out for the mid-term elections and tell these Democrats exactly what we think of them.”

    This is supremely backwards. Do you not recognize that Republicans want a federal constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage across the country? Did you not hear John McCain at Saddleback when he confirmed that he’d appoint the most rightwing justices to the Supreme Court?

    What do you plan to accomplish by abandoning the Democrats and moving to a far worse alternative?

  79. marc says

    RJP3, that long winded pitiful hate is sad, your hatred is one of the reasons many, not just the blacks with your petty hate, you vilify have issues with gays. And, for the one who will vote straight GOP, that is your choice, they will I’m sure welcome you with the same open arms that McCain did while being in favor of all 3 anti-gay ballot initiatives across the country.

    Why is it so hard for the dimwits here to not see that not every black person is anti-gay, oh yeah, they hate all blacks and lump them together, and, all the while are really clueless as to the real reason this thing lost, money from Mormon’s and Catholics and white voters who outnumber all blacks in this state, so where is your rage at the Bishop’s and Mormon’s, or do they get a free pass as they are white and allowed to hate freely?

    The racism that some are showing is as vile as the homophobia they claim to deplore, can’t have it both ways dude’s, since both stink and are wrong, no matter how you try and twist it.

  80. Q says

    RJP3,K, and the rest of you racist motherfuckers on here are something else. You tried to make Prop 8 the scapegoat for your bigotry. Then the diary on DailyKos (thank you for the link, Chris) thoroughly exposes your lies. So now you are left to rant about the “ignorance” of the Black race, and thereby exposing the very same ignorance in YOURSELVES. What irony!

    For those who missed it, get the facts:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

  81. Micah J. says

    I must say, I’ve been reading RJP3’s comments and I don’t see any hatred or racism. Certainly nothing on the extreme level I’ve seen elsewhere. Granted he/she might be a tad bit condescending but to call it hate and racism, I beg to differ.

  82. Vi Agara says

    Lightinglord, be careful. You are going to get yourself banned. This site bans dissenting opinions. Tolerance is only allowed for the views expressed that fit the owner of this site. I wonder if you all know that the oppression of dissent is fascist. Everyone agreeing on everything is a totalitarian state where creativity and progress stagnate. Open discussion of the facts of this matter only allowed here if the posts fit the desired mentality . No matter that Boyo rants with predictable ridiculous statements that its not minorities, its gays themselves that lost the 8 vote.

  83. LightningLord says

    >>You’re not getting it. I dismiss the poll because it’s been carried out in a poor way.

    If I’m “not getting it” it’s because you’re not explaining yourself well enough. Your complaint is that somehow the CNN poll’s results are not to be believed because the poll respondents were “selected” to participate by the polltakers (which is untrue anyway) – yet all public polling is done among those who are “selected” to participate (e.g., they are called on the phone or sent an Internet survey and some respond to the poll and others don’t).

    So unless you can point to some other major flaw in the methodology of the poll, or can point to some other poll that was more methodologically sound and came up with different results, then you’re just ranting and raving and denying reality because the results aren’t in line with how you wish them to be.

  84. Jimmyboyo says

    Great info on how FLAWED the cnn exit poll really was/is

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/7/
    34645/1235

    1 glaring problem is CNN refusal to release a critical piece of information about its sampling.

    “precisely where the network exit polled in California”

    CA is the size of at least 10 east coast equiv states. There is no argument that the AA community in lets say more rural and southern religous South Carolina is vastly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! different from the AA community in more urban northern and less religous Pitsburgh Penn and or Philly (shout out to Derek from Philly)

    To not consider the vast differences between the AA comunities in different parts of super large CA is idiotic.

    The grasping at straws by log cabinites to what???? get gay dems to go repub in the future is utterly retarded.

    The CNN exit poll is so flawed that again we come back to my constant harping on where the real blame with prop 8 lies

    US! Us the gay community now for

    1- not calling out CNN en masse about their flawed poll

    2- Not reaching out to the AA CA community

    3- Not connecting our plight with such cases as Loving vs Va etc

    4- Not registering the million + unregistered voting age gays in CA

    5- not doing GOTV with at least 1/3 of our community who was/is registered to vote to get out and actually vote ….1/3 = at least 500,000+ gays in CA who did not vote (we win right there with the diff only being 400,000+)

    racist log cabinites try again

  85. Luke says

    Looking at religion:
    64% of Catholics voted yes
    65% of Protestants voted yes
    90% of non-religious voted no.
    84% weekly churchgoers voted yes
    54% of occasional churchgoers voted no
    83% of people who’ve never been to church voted no

  86. Vi Agara says

    Hey Boyo, just because you believe in being a Democrat, doesn’t mean everyone gay must be too. Democrats have thrown gays under the bus as many times as Republicans. Your attitudes demonstrate a lack of wisdom, maturity and knowledge of political history.
    Now, why don’t you crybaby over to the site owner and get my posts banned again. See how far your efforts are going to get you life by advocating censorship and squelching debate because someone disagrees with you.

  87. Jimmyboyo says

    Luke

    excellent on pointing that out

    Race was not nor is our issue over prop 8, religion is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The more religious one was/is = the more likely they voted in support of prop 8. Do you have any info on Jewish voters? I would bet the more orthodox/ conservative religious Jewish voters voted overwhelmingly more in support of prop 8 as vs reform Jews. i would also bet that the more religous hindus and more religous arab communities voted overwhelmingly in favor of prop 8 as vs more secular members of those communities.

  88. says

    “conveniently omit a staked-out position about whether these black religious people SHOULD see the parallels. Care to be a little more clear?”

    Since you asked, Gerr. Yes, I think everyone, black and white, should see parallels (along with differences) between all civil rights movements. Unfortunately, many people are unwilling or unable to draw those parallels. That’s where education comes in. Some people will evolve, some won’t. Religion is an obstacle. The (erroneous) perception that gay = rich white men is an obstacle. Trying to understand where people are coming from is not the same as endorsing their POV. I hope in 10 years black religious folks will be more enlightened. I hope white Republicans will, too.

    My definition of racism is not, as you suggest, “anyone who criticizes people of another race for any reason.” I don’t think my comments suggest this, but if you do, that’s your right. I am openly critical of anyone who voted Yes on 8, black or white, and, as someone who lives in one of the whitest states, I don’t consider myself free of racial prejudice. But, I have felt compelled to speak out against what I perceive as divisive and inflammatory racial rhetoric that takes the fight on Prop 8 backwards instead of forward.

  89. LightningLord says

    >>Looking at religion:
    90% of non-religious voted no.
    83% of people who’ve never been to church voted no

    I’m sorry, those poll results are inaccurate. The poll’s methodology was suspect. I think non-religious people probably voted overwhelmingly FOR Prop.8, not against it.

    I don’t have data confirming my belief, I just believe the poll results can’t be trusted because I suspect the methodology was wrong.

  90. says

    VI, the standard for banning here is pretty high. I post regularly on the wingnutdaily and they censor just about every post to the point where you can’t even make sense of a comment.

    Andy’s blog is much more tolerant of dissent — hence the number of comments here.

    I for one am glad to see a lot of gay people not buying the race-baiting story that’s obviously been planted and fanned by disgruntled McCain supporters and log-cabinites. Fixating on this is totally counter-productive. It’s the same divide and conquer tactic the President of my college tried to use once, claiming the queer students had “coopted” a grievance of AAs to push their own agenda. To their credit, our AA students didn’t buy it and remained allied with other minorities.

    I’m also encouraged by the fact that the protests are actually energizing people who otherwise weren’t engaged politically. That’s what we need to have happen. And the animus needs to stay focused on those who are really against us: conservatives and Mormons and Knights of Columbus types.

  91. John in CA says

    Micah:

    If they continue to string gay voters along with any tangible progress on our issues, the Democrats will have abandoned us. Not the other way around. They have total control of the federal government. There’s absolutely no legitimate why they can’t even throw us a bone on these other issues (not related to marriage).

    Historically, mid-terms losses are merely a “warning” to the ruling party that they’re not performing well. That’s what they’re there for. The real reckoning doesn’t come until the next presidential election. So, if the Democrats are doing a piss poor job, there’s no reason to not vote strategically to register one’s displeasure in 2010. Obama isn’t even up until 2012. So, it has nothing to do with judicial appointments or any of that.

  92. clint says

    Head and heart are two different things. My head tells me that racist attitudes aren’t gonna solve anything. My heart tells me that my suspicions about the AA community–which to me is a cultural grouping of folks descended from slaves, and doesn’t include all Americans with African blood–were right, and the statistics prove it. As well, there are very many AA’s who treat their homosexual friends very nicely to their face, and vote dead against us in the ballot box, without apology. Why? They know us, they know our relationships, they know who we are and yet have no problem discarding reason and rationality about most everything gay, and instead fall back on their own cultural prejudice. An educational program aimed at ending these deep prejudices is frankly unworkable and impractical. We will simply have to work around this, make up votes from other demographics, and hope that the AA community, particularly those who are religious, will just catch up later.

  93. JAN IN BERLIN says

    After all that Obamania calmed down a little today German primetime-news finally found time to bring us the bad news about the success of Prop 8. *sigh*

    I always felt uncomfortable with the lack of Obama’s support for gay marriage. And I do feel uncomfortable with the way the whole world makes him the new messiah right now, so I can’t say the success of Prop 8 spoiled any feeling of joy for me. I simply feel depressed over one more battle lost.

    So, as a way to relieve my anger, I feel free to post in here what I tried to post on every Obama-Youtube-Channel and what some kind of strange Obama-STASI deleted within seconds after I klicked the “post message”-button there:

    The cake is a lie !
    The cake is a lie !
    The cake is a lie !
    The cake is a lie !

  94. Q says

    Clint, you are an asshole.

    You state that many Blacks turn on gays. And many white people don’t?? White people don’t discard rationality and reason about everything gay? Cultural prejudice?? Gay hatred is in EVERY culture, bitch! As said a hundred times before, this is about RELIGION. You state that Blacks need to be taught as if YOU have nothing to learn. And then you have the gall to say:

    “An educational program aimed at ending these deep prejudices is frankly unworkable and impractical. We will simply have to work around this, make up votes from other demographics, and hope that the AA community, particularly those who are religious, will just catch up later.”

    Well fuck you and your bigoted, ignorant, condescending ass! It is arrogance like yours that has sustained the gap between the communities.

    Your whole issue of what you “feel” is right goes against the facts that have been posted in this thread several times now. As a matter of fact, “going with your heart” = belief = faith. Isn’t that what the Mormons used to justify their ‘YES’ vote? How is your thinking any better than THEIRS?

    Idiot.

  95. Giovanni says

    This singling out of blacks to the exclusion of every other contributing factor, as if this vote happened in a social vacuum, is ridiculous and quite frankly displays a world view that is deeply suspect and shockingly opportunistic. Its as if some of us have been laying in wait for just this moment to unleash their toxic reasonings into the air

    At its core this is a religious issue – deal with it on those terms or risk setting the movement back even further.

    And Clint what good is your head with out your heart? If we all had such pessimism regarding each other we would be doomed.

  96. The Sleep Thief says

    2nd RALLY at the Mormon Temple – EXPRESS YOURSELF

    Sunday, November 9th at 11am – whenever!

    10777 Santa Monica Blvd., Los Angeles

  97. clint says

    In my post I claim nothing but to point out that my head is on overload to seriously give my heart the kinds of facts that will move me away from a frankly racist and anti-xyz gut reaction. If I have a problem with black people or religious folks, I know for sure it’s my problem and I’m going to make a concerted effort not to let that problem affect how I treat people. Right now, I have a problem. It’s not a permanent problem, it will pass with more reasoning, more compassion and more restraint.
    I work for Roman Catholics, I see them every Sat. night and Sunday. This issue with the AA community that I’m having right now will pass. That issue, with the RC Church, full of people I love dearly and make music for every moment of my life, is painful and far more difficult.
    The truth is, the information is already out there, for African Americans, Catholics, Mormons, and everyone else to look at and learn from. Why is it so ignored in favor of prejudice and/or dogma? Why is our plight not taken seriously enough for the kind of research and learning that a decision about our lives should entail? We need to be educating everyone, by our example and our lives. I don’t hate black people, but right now you can’t blame me if I’m a little intimidated by them when statistics show a 70/30 bias against us. Furthermore, I live in Oklahoma where our people are certainly NOT beloved by most of the population of any color; Sally fucking Kern was just re-elected by her constituency, for goodness sake, do you think I’m gonna rush down the street to Bethany and spend a bunch of money to pay her salary?
    To call me ignorant because I am honest about a struggle I am having is most certainly the easy way out. I could just hate hate and hate, and forget it. Would you rather me do that? And for goodness sake, I would never VOTE for anything that would strip anyone of any color, religion, etc. whatsoever of rights granted by anyone, nor would I advocate anyone else doing the same. 70% of the AA community, along with smaller majorities of Catholics, Mormons, Latinos and others voted to do just that, oh and people over 55 too. This makes it pretty tough to even leave the house, if I’m really as awful and as ignorant and as set on hate as you, Q, would proclaim to the world that I am.

  98. todd says

    Here’s my 2 cents on some of this stuff and the posts at Pam’s Blend. First, the reports about gay whites calling gay blacks the “n-word” seems hard to believe. It reeks of the urban myth of returning Vets being spit on. I suspect a plant by the GOP/Evangelicals.

    While I am sympathetic to some of the points made by gays of color, I seriously doubt that 70% of gay whites are racists, whereas we’ve seen now that 70% of the CA black community are bigots. (and no, you can’t spin a CNN poll just because you don’t like the results; the numbers are similar in the FL gay marriage ban).

    And instead of attacking gay whites for not reaching out into the African American community, why are gays of color doing this outreach in their own community — to family, friends and church? That is where real change will start, when they see you as a loving person who doesn’t threaten them. And for god’s sake get off the Down-Low!

    As the woman from Princeton said on Rachel Maddow last night — the community’s of color have a lot to answer for in their bigotry on this measure.

  99. LightningLord says

    >>This singling out of blacks to the exclusion of every other contributing factor, as if this vote happened in a social vacuum, is ridiculous and quite frankly displays a world view that is deeply suspect and shockingly opportunistic. Its as if some of us have been laying in wait for just this moment to unleash their toxic reasonings into the air

    You mean the same way in which some posters are singling out the Mormons for criticism, as if they were lying in wait for just this moment to unleash their toxic hatred of religion into the air?

    Yes, Mormons were some of the largest financial contributors to Prop 8. But money doesn’t buy people’s agreement. Everyone who voted “Yes” on Prop 8 had a choice to make borne out of their own individual conscience. Arguing that the Mormons financial advantage somehow brainwashed and forced people to vote Yes on 8 is as absurd as arguing that Barack Obama, by outspending John McCain in the Presidential election, somehow brainwashed people into voting for him.

  100. says

    Clint, I think the honesty of your latest post in commendable. You don’t seem awful or ignorant, just angry and hurt, like all of us. It is easy to give in to hate when we’ve been trampled on, again. And in CA it was particularly hurtful because people actually voted to strip away rights we had achieved. Such ignorance, such arrogance!

    But time is on our side. I remember the ignorant hate talk after the court ruled in our favor in VT. Now, a few years later, some haters are out there, I’m sure, but CUs are a non-issue, and we’re moving cautiously towards marriage. Other parts of the country will move more slowly, but they will move. I also remember working state fair marriage equality booths. When someone approached the booth, I found myself guessing whether–based on surface judgments–that person would be for us or against us. Often times I was wrong. Some people who may not ever be pro-gay can develop a live and let live attitude once they realize that our civil marriages won’t harm them a bit. That’s the crazy thing. The people who are most upset about the prospect of “gay marriage” won’t be affected by it at all. It’s frustrating when a whole country like Canada can reach consensus while we struggle piecemeal, facing religious intolerance and cultural ignorance at every step. Let’s hope the Sally Kerns of the world will become extinct sooner rather than later.

    I think the protests in CA and elsewhere, tho they seem after the fact, will shake up the complacency and finally make people see that real human beings are harmed by these heinous majority-whim propositions.

  101. Mark In NYC says

    This racial division is really just spreading hate and dividing us, which is just counter productive to the cause. It’s been pointed out several times that the lack of registered GAY voters lost us the vote.

    To those criticizing the black population for not supporting gay rights, what have you done to change their mind? Had you spoken to all of your friends and family, associates, neighbors be they black, white, Asian, Latino, straight gay, trans? Did you tell them that to vote for Prop 8 would diminish your civil rights? Did you put your face to the cause, so they understood that voting Yes, was going to cause you pain? Did you reach out to your religious friends? I had a long talk with a born-again cousin in LA and was able to sway her vote to NO. If every one of us reach out a hand, we’re sure to win allies.

    Protesting is a great step, and I wish I were able to join in the marches in CA, but this racial profiling hurts everybody. Let’s rise above the pettiness and kick metaphorical ass.

  102. DamonMD says

    “the community’s of color have a lot to answer for in their bigotry on this measure.”

    First of all, I guanrantee you this, in two months, the right-wing media will be awashed in stories about the plight of gay people of color within the gay community.

    Second, gay people of color are more concerned with the evils that plight our respective community more than marriage for well to do gay whites.

  103. DamonMD says

    TODD- “And instead of attacking gay whites for not reaching out into the African American community,”

    As you can see Todd, everyone’s been attacking blacks and completely ignoring the black LBGT community. Then when the black LBGT community shot back, you attack us.

    But here’s some info you’ll be hearing from the media once the right-wing media jumps on it…did you know during the 50s, 60s, and 70s, blacks were literally excluded, by policy, from many gay white dominated bars?

    I’m tired of the bullshit. The gay community is going to have to settle down and start to recognize the state of EVERYONE in our “community”.

  104. Craig says

    “Never attribute to malice that which can be assigned to stupidity.” – sign where I work.

    Why do we have to assume the entire African American community hates us because of the vote against gay marriage?

    Look at the ads that our opponents ran. I live in Arizona, and the ones here made it sound as if marriage itself was being voted on, with not one word about gay people being said by them.

    Look, this might be the single most important thing in our minds right now, but why should we assume that the electorate bothered to pay attention.

    Baptist churches happen to dominate that community. THAT’s the enemy, not the people in the pews. It’s a top down, command structure in those places. If my rector in my Episcopal church spouted this garbage, 3/4 of the congregation would immediately walk out in protest. That’s not the way it works in a conservative church. Preacher commands, they follow.

    Don’t hate them because that’s the way they’ve been taught. It’s not a black thing, it’s a Baptist thing. Knock off the race nonsense.

    Look at the Mormons that stood with us in protest. Do you have any idea what that took for them to break with their own command type religion? They ought to be applauded for their tremendous courage.

    You can’t blame these people because we failed to educate them. Screaming epithets at them will only make them forever our enemy. Make friends!

    I was shocked when a conservative in my church came over at a ministry Sunday where I had a pro-gay marriage table. He genuinely wanted to know what my side was all about. We had quite a conversation and guess what? That was four weeks ago, and I have a good friend in him. He’s not evil just because he has a different political point of view. Their side won’t teach them our side of the story – so why do we blame the individuals that made a poorly informed decision because we didn’t get our point across?

    All is not lost. This fight isn’t over. Go out, make friends, EDUCATE them.

    > Note: I’m not making some racist comment about African Americans being ignorant. I don’t know a tenth of what I should about what being black is all about, because I haven’t taken the time to educate myself. Why should I expect anything different from them?

  105. garyj says

    What we need to do is get a bill on the ballot to have these so called religious establishments tax exemptions pulled, they are political entities and have no right to tax exemption, how can we get this done?
    Anyone?

    The time for peaceful marches is over, we need to do a Stonewall.

  106. Yeek says

    Oh boy,here I go again.

    I’ve been thinking a lot about the whole race thing.

    There seems to be two camps here: one group saying that the AA vote is so lopsided compared to most other demographics that it deserves to be condemned.

    The other group senses a malicious inference, that the AA community is going to be held as a scapegoat for the passing of Prop 8 even though it was 6.7% of the electorate. Criticism of the black vote smacks of a thin veneer covering pedestrian racist impulses just looking for an excuse to find a voice.

    I think both groups are probably right…some of the time. The problem comes when we make the transition from communities to individuals. Yes, the AA community is, by the numbers, more opposed to us than most. But why? Well, some individuals are probably pious bigots, but others are good-hearted, reasonable, can be persuaded. Similarly, the anger from gay men and women towards the AA vote is motivated by opportunistic racism in some cases, and genuine hurt and stunned indignation in others.

    I think we all need to cut each other a break on this one.

    Some have argued that because the AA community is only 6.7% of the California population, they are not responsible for passing prop 8. It’s a double-edged sword,though, because by that same standard the AA community will not be responsible for defeating prop 8 either (whenever that happens). Does this allow us to wash our hands of the AA community as too small to ever matter? That seems like a cold perspective. It might be the way Karl Rove would do it, and he did win quite a bit. Is that how we want to win?