Prop 8 Foes Refusing to Concede

Here’s the latest in the Prop 8 battle:

“Kate Kendall, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said 3 million to 4 million ballots remain uncounted statewide. ‘The fact is depending on the turnout model we are looking at millions of votes yet to be counted,’ Kendall said. ‘The race is too close to call. People’s fundamental rights hang in the balance.’ Secretary of State Debra Bowen is expected to issue an estimate of the number of uncounted ballots late today or Thursday. It could take days to process all of them. Proposition 8 supporters declared victory early today, saying their model shows them with an insurmountable lead. Proposition 8, the most passionately debated and costliest measure on the ballot, was ahead 52 percent to 48 percent with 92 percent of precincts reporting.”

Noon8Karen Ocamb reports to us on a conference call that happened earlier this morning:

“In a hastily called conference call at around 9:00am with reporters that lasted about ten minutes – Geoff Kors and Kate Kendell said they are waiting for outstanding absentee and provisional ballots to be counted. They estimate between 3-4 million outstanding, it depends on voter turnout. LA Times has the vote at 95.4% precincts reporting – Yes = 5,163,908 or 52% of the vote to No = 4,760,336 or 48%. I asked about where those ballots are expected to fall, since last night everyone said absentee ballots tend to be older, conservative voters from smaller counties. Kate and Geoff both said that’s true, but they said LATE filing absentee folks – such as themselves, tend to be progressive and new voters tend to ask for Provisional ballots. They are waiting until the Secretary of State certifies the results – maybe later today, probably tomorrow, before making further comment on what they intend to do. Kendell said ‘its going to be a bumpy ride.'”

Lawsuit planned.

And another.

This is far from over.

Comments

  1. John says

    Let’s hope for some sort of miracle here, folks — it’s depressing to learn that people are more concerned about the well-being of the chickens that wind up on their dinner plates than for our civil rights. But maybe I shouldn’t be surprised by this.

  2. says

    I have so much respect for the people doing this work.

    Me, I’m just filled with a deep bitterness this morning. I wish I could rise above it, but I can’t. To have the United States triumph over bigotry on the same night that it reaffirms its bigotry against us … it hurts pretty bad.

  3. John in CA says

    With a 400,000 vote margin?

    I don’t think it is helpful to string people along on false hope. If this were similar to Bush v. Gore in 2000, and we’re talking about a few thousand votes, then we should fight it all the way to the Supreme Court.

    But this is a 4% spread. Come on now.

    Perhaps they should use their resources to gather the 1,000,000 signatures needed to force another election. And if that fails, then do it again. And again.

    If the religious right has proven anything, it is that persistence pays off. They’ve put that parental notification initiative on the ballot for FOUR straight elections now. It keeps on losing, but they keep on doing it.

  4. says

    There is a press conference today at noon to announce a new lawsuit being filed by Robin Tyler and Diane Olson, the first same sex couple to wed last summer in LA. I heard Tyler speak at Bakersfield Gay Pride so I have a good idea of what they are going to do. I am thinking of going to the press conference as it’s going to be a big deal I think. The lawsuit is said to use a “controversial” approach to fighting prop 8.
    http://www.contracostatimes.com/california/ci_10904639

  5. Godfrey says

    Married gay tax paying citizens now have “standing” in the courts to file lawsuits regarding removal of their fundamental rights.

    The first lawsuit will be filed this afternoon.

    THIS IS NOT OVER BY A LONG SHOT!

  6. MIke says

    It’s just the reality on the ground, unfortunately. There is still so much animus toward gays in America, and that’s OK with a lot of people.

    Oh well.

  7. Kyle says

    There will be a sign on the front of my house from now until a very long time: Mormons not welcome here.

    Please join me, and let’s let them feel what hate is like.

  8. Jason D says

    We lost it. Those ballots that haven’t been counted will not be nearly enough to change things. Now all we have to do is hope the courts overturn this horrible, bigoted thing and everyone (gay and straight) must stand up to religious bigotry and turn out backs on those who refuse to support us. There is only so much educating one can do before we have to see who turn our backs on the bigots of this country and urge everyone else to do so.

  9. akaison says

    They need to start thinking about using whatever momentum they got from this close outcome. Namely, 2012, and placing an amendment to appeal Prop 8. If they spend the next 4 years focused on grassroot efforts in red areas of CA, into Latino and black communities, etc plus the dying off of some of the older voters and the demographics of the young community should help them. They need to rethink the gay ghetto+natural straight allies strategy. Again,I point to Obama’s 2008 strategy when compared to Kerry’s of 2004. Obama utilized his community organizing background on a national scale. Similarly here they need to think like community organizers on a state scale. This is doable in 4 years.

  10. willy says

    The huge rainbow flag that adorns The Castro is flown half-staff today. I’m useless right now because I’m so upset. I feel like I worked so hard to defeat Prop 8 and am now questioning if I could have done more or donated more. I think I just need time to mourn for a bit.

    I too have so much respect for people doing this.

  11. Wes says

    Why the hell do you all keep bringing the poor tortured animals into this? Why not mention the other amendments that passed?

    Really, its sad to see people so bitter at a really great thing: a stand against animal torture.

    I want Prop 8 to fail as much as anyone, but I would rather not be able to marry than not protect disgustingly abused animals with no quality of life whatsoever.

    Stop taking it out on the damn chickens, they didn’t vote against us, they didn’t fail us like so much of the gay community, they didn’t do a damn thing regarding Prop 8 so wtf.

  12. akaison says

    GAY BRADLEY EFFECT

    Was someone lying int he exit polls yesterday? Assuming that the African American numbers are true, some white voters and/or Latino voters weren’t telling pollsters the truth. Why? Because the exit polling had Prop 8 losing by 4 percent.

  13. andy says

    I suspect many people who voted that were not clear on what PROP 8 is, voted YES thinking “YES! I support gay marriage.” It’s a terrible and obvious oversight.

  14. mike says

    John in CA, I’m with you. Keep fighting. Keep petitioning. Wear those *ssholes out. Keep educating. Keep talking about it. Keep those bigots feet to the fire. Petition the government for redress. This was a victory for the forces of reaction, for the utter and pure hatred that evangelicals have for gays and lesbians. Yes, it is hatred! And it is time to STOP being fair with those people. Throw black paint on their churches. Clog their phone lines. Send them mass mailings calling them out on their bigotry. Enlist those scholars who can dispute wing-nut evangelicals’ interpretations that the bible condones this vile hatred towards gays and lesbians (it does not!). Take the fight to them. Fight them. Go to their “prayer-thons” and let them know we are everywhere. Protest, protest and protest again. Even Obama needs to be bitch-slapped with his “I’m for civil unions but against gay marriage because I am a christian” bullsh*t. Enough is g*ddam enough! I have lived my entire life watching this fundamentalist filth, this evangelical effluvia make me the enemy in my own land. I will not tolerate it anymore. Fight! Fight! Fight!

  15. Wes says

    But didn’t the wording clearly say “eliminate the right of same sex couples to marry” or something along those lines?

    I don’t see how many people could have gotten confused unless they were being really, really careless.

  16. Gary says

    Discrimination is such a horrible beast. It hurts and demeans people, and gives others some sense of satisfaction. I am so sorry for the thousands of couples that are now told once again “you are a second-class citizen.”

    Screw the LDS and their hypocritical hate. And for the ‘it’s about traditional marriage’-it’s a civil license, not demands to use your churches or children. And why just a ‘simple majority’? The US Constitution requires 2/3 of the States to incorporate it. Even in Florida (which also lost) it takes 60% to make discriminational changes.

    It brings me to tears to think of how so many couples woke up this morning to ‘you two are worthless in the eyes of a slight majority of voting people.’ Hopefully we can change things now in NY.

    I did what I could to help from across the country, but there are limits to a person that is disabled.

  17. mimi says

    Just think about how many people in CA must have voted Yes on 8 and then celebrated tearfully at Obama’s words that all things are possible in America.
    It proves something that should not be a surprise to anyone. The ‘we’ in ‘Yes we can’ doesn’t include everyone.

  18. alex in sf says

    initial exit polling had prop 8 down by 4% but that was with about 1,000 respondents. the final exit poll results had 2,240 and the results were nearly 50-50 but leaning toward prop 8

  19. Lars says

    I am so fucking sick of the US religious movement’s attempts to thrust their superstitions upon everyone. You have the freedom to practice your religion, you do not have the right to impose your religion.

    I hate religion with all of my might. How anyone could buy into that load of bigoted racist, bullshit is beyond me. But I would NEVER attempt to stop anyone from practicing their beliefs in their homes and churches. But it has no place in our government.

    If the true desire is to preserve the “sanctity of marriage” then we damn sure better be removing the right of divorce from the books as well!

  20. tom says

    Sadly, it looks like the results are much like Virginia two years ago, gays lost the black middle class, so even while other candidates and measures passed (Jim Webb in VA and Obama in CA.)
    It appears if African American turnout had been at historical levels (much lower than last night) Prop 8 would have failed.

    We have a lot of work to do or we will keep loosing these elections

  21. Rad says

    MSNBC posted that it’s over; Prop 8 has been passed.

    You need to demand a recount. The next course of action would be to go before the Supreme Court, again, since these are the rights of, what 1800 American citizens that will be taken away? That’s generally a no-no.

  22. Mark says

    Faced with the possible passage of Proposition 8, I think that it is important for supporters of marriage equality to focus on a few important factors that are in our favor:

    (1) Existing CA same-sex marriages will likely remain valid.

    (2) When refusing to remove Proposition 8 from the November ballot, the CA Supreme Court also declined to rule on the question of whether the proposed constitutional *amendment* should have qualified for the ballot under the more strict 60% majority requirements of a constitutional *revision*. Should this proposition win, reports are that we can expect the SF City Attorney General challenge it on that issue.

    (3) Based on the roughly 48% support for marriage equality, foes can no longer claim a popular mandate for maintaining discrimination. This should help lift political concerns that the CA Supreme Court justices might have with revisiting this issue and possibly ruling against Prop. 8.

    (4) The 2009 New York State Senate will be controlled by the Democratic party, finally opening the way for marriage equality legislation to be singed into law by Gov. Paterson–and, for the first time in the US, with statewide popular support AND without judicial directive.

    (5) The State of Connecticut is set to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples this month, again, with popular support.

    (6) Popular momentum is in favor of marriage equality.

    While we appear to be hitting a bump in this long road of civil rights, we must remain steady and focused on the very achievable goal of marriage equality in California and around the nation.

  23. Steve says

    If the religious zealots behind Prop 8 want to protect marriage so badly – why aren’t they trying to ban divorce and make that illegal? In the meantime, I too am in shock that LA County did so poorly… then again, there were some party boys crying at the prospects Prop 8 would pass last night. I asked them what they did to help stop it. They said: “We Voted.” I asked them: “And what else? Did you work the phone banks? Did you go door-to-door? Did you write letters? Did you donate a percentage of your income like me and my friends?” They looked and said: “We went to a rally in West Hollywood and held a sign.” Now that “they” have taken away the rights of one group away – who is next?

  24. JonnyEnglish says

    Please forgive my ignorance, (I am a brit so not familiar with the intricacies of U.S. law!) but If Proposition 8 *has* passed, what happens to all the Californians who have taken up their (currently constitutional) right to marry? Do they effectively have their licenses torn up and lose all the legal benefits they incurred or do they get to stay married, as it was legal when they did?

  25. freddy says

    I’m sorry, but Obama’s words about equality last night rang hollow. Every African-American that voted YES ON 8 yesterday should be ashamed.

    Interracial marriage should be put up for referendum again. I don’t care what you say, it’s the same thing. Taste of medicine and all that.

  26. Rad says

    And another direction would be to go the “Separate but equal” direction.

    This is a long road to hoe. Marriage is really a theocratic term; biblical, and when you start poking religious conservatives in the eye, you’re going to do nothing except piss them off. This is the same base that covertly rallied to put the Asshat-in-chief into office in 2000. And look, No on 8 lost when they rallied.

    If you go “Separate-but-equal” for now; recognized civil or domestic unions by a JP (much like Canada), that’s a foot hold. It’s something to build on.

    Hell, it took 40 years for the country to get past segregation! The gay movement still has another decade or two to catch up!

    Rad

  27. JR says

    The sad reality is that this really comes down to a fight against ignorance. If you were to combine the gay vote against prop 8 and the informed, intelligent non gay vote against prop 8, we would still fall WAY short against ignorant, fear based haters. That’s just the simple truth. There are far more stupid sheep in the world than there are those people who choose to use their brains. This fact makes me lose a little faith in humanity. But at least Obama slaughtered McCain. There in lies some hope for the future.

  28. Paul R says

    1800 Americans? What are you talking about, Rad? More like 1 million, and likely far more. Just because people aren’t married doesn’t mean they didn’t lose a right. And far more than 900 couples have been married since May.

    But I’m sorry, as much as I respect and appreciate the work of those trying to fight the outcome, the margin is too large. We lost, and every member of the LGBT community who didn’t donate any time or money to fighting Prop 8 should be ashamed of themselves. Sickened, actually. I’m not a full-time activist, I have a full-time job. But I found time to help. If you didn’t, you’re no better than a Log Cabin Republican: self-loathing and despicable. You left the work to others because you were lazy, selfish, presumptuous, or cheap.

    And while I think the campaign eventually got very strong, it started too late and was far too confident at the outset. Of course it was the gay Bradley effect. Few people will admit to being bigots.

    I wish gays would tithe some of their resources to our rights and lives as effectively as the f’ing Mormons do to undermining them.

  29. Hans says

    Well, at least McCain wasn’t get elected. Because if he were he would have appointed SC judges who would’ve ensured that same-sex marriage is NEVER legal.

  30. Jimmyboyo says

    As of this moment 95% of the votes counted the difference is only around 400,000

    As I mentioned in another thread = possible 1,000,000+ Gays in california are UNREGISTERED to vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    We could have won this thing bitches if more had pushed the ground game as vs the money game.

    The blame is OURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1,000,000 potential gay voters NOT even fucking registered to vote!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The blame is all ours!

    Ca gays who voted, go into one of our bars and slap the shit out of 1/2 of our gay brothers and sisters there because they didn’t bother to register to even vote. Then turn around and slap ourselves for not working the ground game to register our idiot brother and sisters

    400,000 diff and CA has around 1,000,000 unregistered gay voters of voting age!

  31. John in CA says

    Sadly, we can’t even assume that all those potential gay voters would vote against a Prop. 8 style measure.

    Many of them are closeted.

    Many are conservative.

    Many are religious.

    Many just don’t care about marriage.

  32. John says

    It is time to move to tax all churches. They no longer should be entitled to tax exempt status.

    Additionally, I want my own taxes reduced by half to off set my loss of financial rights that come with marriage.

    If these two things were to happen, I personally would not bring the issue up again.

  33. Francis says

    in order to repeal the passage of Prop 8 we now need a two-thirds majority. Not likely to happen for decades! The only hope we have is for the CA Supreme Court to rule Prop 8 unconstitutional. The other hope is for Obama and the Dems to approve and recognize civil unions nationally for us. I know it is second class status, but for now it would make a sea change in the country and prepare the way for full equality.

    I can’t help but feel bitterness toward my fellow Californians and deep lack of respect for their evil religion. And let’s face it, any religion that takes away other people’s rights and judges their marriages as invalid is evil.
    Francis

  34. Jimmyboyo says

    bret and john

    Yepp

    how many of registered gay voters turned out? The general US pop saw 2/3 turn out of registered voters so we probably saw 1/3 of our own ca gay registered voters not turn out at all

    After slapping myself and preping to slap a whole shit load of others at my fave bars, i for one will be ready for next time

    ground game ground game ground game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  35. Jason D says

    I worked so hard in my local community to get out the word for NO on 8. Standing with signs in the cold, calling people, having simple discussions with people about the prop and what ist REALLY meant. And who were the majority of the people who helped me do this? Straight females. All the gays in the area were “too busy”, and kept telling me it was California and there was no way it was going to pass. And now…here we are.

    I also blame the official NO campaign for a horrible job.

  36. lucas says

    If we really care about this issue, we need to act like it. Civil rights are won because the oppressed group is willing to sacrifice, even die for their cause. I see no such resolve on our side, not even close, and thus, we lose every time.

  37. peterparker says

    I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again: apathy in the gay community killed us, not the religious fundamentalists.

    Don’t get me wrong, there is no way Prop 8 could have gotten on the ballot much less passed without the support of religious wingnuts. But from what I observed in the gay community, not many people were concerned about the outcome of Prop 8. I spent night after night after night in front of the bars in West Hollywood either holding No On Prop 8 sign or attempting to convince guys to donate time or money to the campaign. The reaction to me and to other No On 8 volunteers ranged from people saying “Thanks for being here” as they breezed past us to head into the bar to outright hostility. One of our volunteers approached a guy waiting to get into a bar and was told that he would be pushed in front of traffic if he didn’t go away. These are members of our own community who are either condescendingly giving us a verbal pat on the head or actively threatening us while we fight for our (and their) rights!

    There is a lot of blame to go around here, but in the end it lands at our own damn feet.

  38. Damon says

    I think a lot of gays were just SURE that Prop 8 was going to fail (and they knew Obama would take CA) that they didn’t even bother to vote. How such a ridiculous thought entered their heads I’ll never know. But this isn’t over guys. So stop focusing on the negative of it now and look at the positive: We have a fucking SANE president!

  39. Alan says

    My 2¢:

    I made observations while watching this all play out in LA and I think there are few pills the gay community must swallow…

    We must be in unequivocal lock step repeating loudly the matra GAY IS NOT A CHOICE, GAY IS NOT A LIFESTYLE, GAYS ARE PART AND PARCEL OF FAMILY. We cannot let enemies continue to say, print, spread the lie that gay is a choice, that gay is a lifestyle one chooses and that it is a behavior that can change. We must fight that Tooth and Nail with everything and it starts with you saying it over and over and over out loud.

    We must clean up our act – the Gay Pride Parade makes sense commemorating Stonewall with RESPECTFUL and MATURE displays like professional groups, sports groups, gay political groups, PFLAG for example. Having obscene participants out in the open KILLS US!!! It just gives the Religious Right and others good reason to see us as dirty freaks if we are engaging in obscene behavior in a parade. And don’t come back at me like that doesn’t happen please.

    Where was Massachusetts in all this? WTF didn’t they send out press releases and communiques and articles about how Marriage is NOT a problem for the vast majority of Straight Families therein?

    What the gay movement needs is an OBAMA type leader, a MAN – not a Lesbian to stand up to Straight Men as a MAN and provide a strong role model for young gay men. It is GAY MEN that are mostly targeted with anti-gay hatred and it will take a strong VISIBLE male leader to really make a difference. The closest I’ve seen to this is Patrick Giuerro (sp?) as he’s shown some strength on CSPAN against CWFA yet he was too reticent- SPEAK UP and STAND TALL and CONFIDENT!

    Gay men (not gay women) have to stop IGNORING when a straight man calls you a name and stand up to him. I have lost count as to how many times I’ve stood with a group of gay men (big guys no less) and one a-hole straight guy walks by and tosses out Fkn faggots and NOT one gay guy but me wants to wring his neck- rather my gay friends shrink or pretend NOT to have heard it.

    Out Anderson Cooper NOW. He is gay and he must be outed and be SO WHAT about it- he’ll write books, become huge for being who he is and a gay guy at the same time and BE a visible gay MAN as a great role model for young gay men.

    On each point-counterpoint I’ve seen on TV regarding Prop 8, the No on 8 side (usually a man) allowed the Yes side most of the floor! WTF! Talk over them, don’t give them much room to keep talking- I was appalled to see on KTLA this practically silent No on 8 debate with some old Judge representing Yes on 8 and the No on 8 guy just sat there barely moving while the old Judge ran him over – even the KTLA hosts were trying to prop up the guy representing No on 8 but he kept SILENT!!!!!!

    Many of you have said this and it must be put into action somehow – tax the “family” organizations that really are just limbs of the Mainline Protestant Church. Example Focus on the Family- there has to be a way to legally dismantle them or at least tax them. There has to be legal and aggressive end runs made on these organizations or they will ALWAY trounce gay rights. In the case of Prop 8, Focus on the Family ALREADY had a plan that had been tried and tested in other states since 2000 and the machine they’ve got (posters, websites, mailers, focus groups, words that reach the reptile brain of voters) was just deployed in California and worked like gangbusters. The No on 8 was clearly taken aback and had to play catch up.

    Personal responsibility. As gay people we are ambassadors to every straight person we are out to and being OBNOXIOUS is not really going to get us anywhere. Many gay people are that – PEOPLE and we are all colors and kinds but one thing all people can agree is that OBNOXIOUS behavior is counter productive. I’m talking about common courtesy and manners in public- I see so many gay guys yapping loudly about sexual things; that’s fine but watch out for little ears PLEASE and yes talk about that stuff but just be decent about the volume and who’s around you like little kids. I hope you know what I mean here and I see it/hear it all the time out and about. I’m not saying to censor you I’m just saying there is a time and a place for everything is all.

    Well, sorry for this long stream of consciousness. I’d love to hear what you think of my ramblings. I too am floored by the fact that 70% of California’s Black voters voted YES. That’s a real slug to the stomach. Be well and I wish us all good luck.

  40. says

    i’d like to know how it is legal to just flat-out lie in advertising.

    that to me was one of the most infuriating things to witness. blatant lies in all of their ads and our side just couldn’t swat them down fast enough or effectively enough. we had our superintendent of schools telling people that the “Yes” side were lying. it was pure and intentional deception – and VERY un-Christian.

    and the exploitation of children made my stomach turn. i was at the downtown LA rally on Sunday counter-protesting and to see all the kids and teenagers chanting hateful slogans and laughing and having a blast doing it was heartbreaking and may have changed me in some way. i was MORE THAN tolerant of religious folk before this process – but no longer. i want none of it.

  41. the queen says

    LOL@Alan, another one of the “let’s modify our behavior so we convince the hetties were just plain normal folk” crowd… oh dearie me… when will you fags ever learn? there will always be people who do not approve of homosexuality no matter what you say or do — their minds cannot be changed — accept it, and deal with it — of course, the drag queens will have to be the first to go in alan’s “let’s clean up our act” roundup … life is diversity my dear D-I-V-E-R-S-I-T-Y, look it up in the dictionary — you’ll find it between dildo and dumb… i for one refuse to be part of your straight-acting-straight-appearing- always-on-my-good-behavior-let’s-not-offend-the-hetties carbon copy respectful fag clone world… may the gay bitches, freaks, weirdos, etc. et al continue to rock! ROCK ON!!!

  42. Hank says

    Here in rural Santa Cruz Co. Ca, the yellow ‘yes on 8′ signs were sprouting on plenty of lawns in the last few days. This is a blue coastal county which went no-on-8 overall because it’s a college town, but not out in the country where it’s a very white mix of hippies and Palin-people. I am afraid that even in coastal California, outside of a few enclaves, gay-friendliness is not that deep or solid.

  43. Jimmyboyo says

    I am going to have to agree with The Queen here.

    I want our proud drag queens out more doing what they do best = being themselves, but you happy high heeled drag bitches better register your happy asses to vote next time. You also better make sure your drag your drag high heeled asses to the polls.

    On needing a leader…..we had/have one.

    Obama showed us how to win during the primaries = ground game ground game ground game = register voters. Did HRC listen? hell no, they focused on holding cocktail parties to grab up more checks.

    Peterparker and others who did focus on ground game trying to register our apathetic idiot brothers and sisters = THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

  44. robert says

    WEST HOLLYWOOD IS SHUTTING DOWN STREETS FOR A PROTEST DEMONSTRATION AGAINST PROP 8 TONIGHT AT 7PM AT SAN VICENTE AND MELROSE
    PLEASE COME AND SPREAD THE WORD WIDELY OUR FIGHT FOR OUR EQUALITY, DIGNITY AND FULL CITIZENSHIP IS FAR FROM OVER LET THIS DEFEAT ENERGIZE US TO TAKE ACTION – REACH OUT – BUILD STRENGTH ACROSS COMMUNITIES. WE CANNOT LAY DOWN IN DEFEAT – WE MUST STAND UP AND FIGHT

  45. Josh says

    There are things about the gay community that even I dont understand.For example:Since when do men wear lip gloss? since when do men get pencil thin eye brows,since when is it ok for gay men to act conceited and carry that “diva-like” attitude? Why do so many gay men act like flamers walk around with that “MISS THANG” mentality.If anything those gay individuals carry every single stereotype barfed up by the hetero bigots.I dont live like that,Im just a regular guy who happens to be attracted to other men,I dont date fem guys and none of my friends are fem,so whats this deal that some gay guys have with being over-board with the level of flamboyance they carry?This is what we need to educate str8s on.The fact that not all of us are these overly dramatic queens with a crappy attitude and the fact that we are human just as they are,we bleed,we love,we fear,we hate,we work,we desire,we live,just as they do.I agree some gays do need to clean their act up (they know who they are) thats why they get offended when other gay men tell them these things.We cant and should not give up fighting for our rights,but some gay people need to realize we cant be successful at it,if they are gonna continue the crazy shit they do.Because,there are so many gays who live up to the stereotypes generated by the str8 bigots,they see all of us as the same with that particular image they already have of us.We are not ALL that way.Personally people cant tell if Im gay or not because I dont live up to all the stereotypes,sometimes my family even forgets because they too have a direct image of what most gay people act like and they learned we are not all that shitty fem queen with a snotty attitude and a rude and obnoxious sense of humor.Str8 people need to be educated and so do some gays who act in the stereotypical manner that many of them imagine.Yes there will always be those who will hate and discriminate against gays no matter what we do,but those certain individuals arent helping us,they are just adding fuel to the flames.

  46. Alan says

    No group that acts obnoxiously is going to curry favor with anyone. I’m not saying “hetero it up,” listen, I’m saying behave with decorum in public. Like Josh says, not all gay guys are in-your-face-drag queens and that has to be as okay as drag queens. And drag queens are awesome but if they get obnoxious- then that’s what they are obnoxious. Also, many gay guys are not Bobby Trendy so don’t say that some gay guys are putting on hetero because they are not. I’m just saying be yourself but behave in public.

  47. Jimmyboyo says

    BS Josh ,Alan, and others

    “straight acting” You suck dick and or get your sucked by a guy = NOT never ever straight acting

    I’m butch, I date only butch guys, and the majority of my friends are butch (butch = is the best term) BUT!!!!! I apreciate our more fem brothers.

    You all better kiss the asses of our more fem brothers because that is who made up the majority of ACT UP! remember them? No fems manning ACT UP and fighting for you in the 80’s and you wouldn’t have the rights you currently enjoy. Without fem drag queens at stonewall fighting for you ………..you wouldn’t be able to be on here bitching nonsense.

    Butch guy here who loves butch guys and lrespects my fem brothers and want them out there more doing what they do best.

  48. rudy says

    Josh, Fuck you and not in the way you claim to like it. I am sure that you are not half as straight appearing as you have deluded yourself into believing. More importantly, your bigoted opinions belie your hollow words of self-esteem. Your self-hatred is merely projected upon others. Were it not for the drag queens and fems that came before you, you would still be quaking in fear at home. You have merely made your in your closet portable.

  49. Scott says

    I hope you do take to the streets tonight in LA. The results there (and elsewhere in costal southern CA) were devastating, to say the least.

    Furthermore, I propose the GLBT community in CA organize a massive protest: a “Walk OUT” in which we all literally walk out of our jobs for one day in a show of unity and diversity.

  50. Jamal says

    “I’m butch, I date only butch guys, and the majority of my friends are butch (butch = is the best term) BUT!!!!! I apreciate our more fem brothers.”

    I hate it when gay guys call males “butch.” It sounds so subculture “Big Gay Al.” It makes one sound abnormal. “Masculine” is the mainstream word that most guys use to describe a guy.

  51. says

    “BTW,For the record:Im proud of who I am,I show pride in being gay,I just dont act like a stereotypical bafoon about it.”

    You may not act like a “bafoon” but yours and Alan’s thoughts are sure buffoonishly homophobic. FYI, Drag queens and fem-boys are human. So are leather daddies and bull dykes. Hiding them away in dark caves isn’t going to win over the bigots. As Jimmy points out, they don’t like us because of where we put our dicks.

    Furthermore, last I checked, straight people don’t have to pass a good-behavior conformity test before they get married. And gay Canadians, for instance, can get married (they have full marriage rights, Rad, not separate-but-equal) even if they lisp and act like obnoxious flamers in public. What Canada doesn’t have is a powerful lobby of religious fanatics. They’re the enemy, not Bobby Trendy, however annoying he may be.

  52. marcel says

    “I hope you do take to the streets tonight in LA. The results there (and elsewhere in costal southern CA) were devastating, to say the least.”

    Too late. Why the drama and organization now, after the fact? Where was the dedication, organization, money, and sacrifice BEFORE the election? Lazy and apathetic gay people across the NATION should look in the mirror if they want to know who is to blame.

  53. John in CA says

    Los Angeles was a total shock. So much for the influence of “liberal” Hollywood and Mayor Villaraigosa.

    The San Francisco area delivered for us (probably the only reason this is even close). But we didn’t run a good “ground game” there either.

    One of the suburban San Francisco counties, Solano County, went decidedly against us. The margin of victory in Santa Clara County was unimpressive. Clearly, more outreach is needed in those areas. And turnout in the Bay Area was also quite low compared to Southern California. There seems to be a lot of complacency and apathy.

    If we expect to do well in future, then we need to flip LA County first and foremost. But we also need to avoid making these kinds of costly “ground game” mistakes in the Bay Area. This is a region that’s already on our side. We need to lock it up and close the deal.

  54. Stuart says

    I stayed up all night to watch the count on CNN.com and beleive irregularities in the voting to exist. from the beginning Yes on pro 8 had a just over 350,000 lead on No on Prop 8, this number did not change save for a few votes every update, the static nature of this number to me suggests tampering

  55. Grego says

    I’m stunned that so many Americans would steal away our civil right to marry in 2008. Its stone-age.

    I also don’t understand how the mormons and the catholic church can wade into political issues like they have. I’m on a non-profit employee rights org near Wash DC and we are forbidden by federal IRS regulations from endorsing a position or a candidate or using tax exempt money to advocate, at the risk of our status. How have the church machines been able to do just that?

  56. amy says

    If fundamentalists think Prop 8 is a ‘victory’, they are right. They have solidified a movement and they will see the antithesis of their hopes.

    I’m here in Louisiana, and watched this from afar. And now- along with many like myself, I am DETERMINED to fight FOR gay rights. And I am a straight christian! I stand with you for equality. The church was foolish if they believed this was going to be good for them.

  57. amy says

    see, this is what I mean, this is from an email I received earlier, from another straight Christian:

    “I don’t think i realized before that it was about me. It’s not just a “gay” issue. It’s a human issue.”

    As I said, if the religious right believe this has been a victory- it is- because it has victoriously united MANY gay, straight and in-between…

    We will stand with you.

  58. Scott says

    Everyone is going to have to start realizing that this is not just the “religious right” passing this. There’s not enough of them in this state. Folks, this was your fellow Democrats selecting to deny gays the right to marry.

    The message is clear, gays are not welcome to the party. Oh, but please send money.

  59. Mike says

    Couple of things… doubtful that we will get the votes to pass based upon absentee, not impossible, but extremely unlikely. We would need to get approx. 67% no on the remaining ballots.

    Regarding an amendment to repeal, that only takes a 50% vote. People are confusing this with a constitutional revision which requires a 2/3 vote. If this is a revision, it doesn’t pass in the first place.

  60. GV says

    “Interracial marriage should be put up for referendum again. I don’t care what you say, it’s the same thing.“

    It is, indeed, the same principle, Freddy. But there`s one good reason that issue should nhot5 be on the ballot. Interracial couples were not against us on this. In fact, the religious cults that are the enemies of gay equality are for the most part exactly the same ones who attacked interracial couples rights as well as the rights to equality for bnlack individuals.
    Mormons, Southern Baptists, Evangelicals.
    Of course it is ironic that less educated blacks tend to be against us, but I think that is a lot like the irony in so many abused kids becoming abusers as adults. The black leaders of civil rights have been with us, most notably Coretta Scott King (I am so sorry that we have lost that voice. She very well might have changed history for us yesterday if she could have continued to lend her voice to our civil rights}.

    If you want to suggest a ballot initiative, I would think the most logical would be to take away the rights of, for example, Mormons. Can you imagine the advertisements (“If Mormons continue to marry, Non Mormons churches will lose their tax exempt status…. The slippery slope will lead us to Mormons polygamy and beastiality…. Children in schools will be indoctrinated into Mormonism.“} We could find isolated cases of some straight Mormon teacher taking his class to his wedding and exaggerate news stories, with details omitted, about how some hall that didn`t host a Mormon wedding had to pay taxes.
    I wonder how many among the public would fully understand the implicit irony, in light of the millions of dollars worth of lies that were bought to mislead others and attack us.

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