Comments

  1. rudy says

    Although I remain ecstatic about Obama’s historic triumph, I am now beyond crushing sadness at the passage of Prop 8 and well into barely controlled fury.

    How did this happen? How could this campaign be so utterly mis-managed? On what was all that money wasted? I am currently unemployed but gave significant contributions out of my need, not my excess. How could those ads be so ineffective, unprofessional, and unpersuasive. Were they produced exclusively by straight men?

    The political apathy and naivitee of the California queens is astounding. How could Black churches align with the cross-issue bigots in the Mormon church? Blacks were not even allowed to become members of the LDS “religion” until someone had a “vision” in the 1970s!

    The so-called ‘leadership’ of No on 8 has a great deal for which they must answer.

  2. says

    Go suck Mark Buse’s dick, “Jaydub”!

    Your problemm, Rudy, and that of so many others in the HRC and NLGTF leper colony, is that you equate money with moral fervor and the power that prceeds from it. The ads were awful, but MUCH worse was the fact that no one was put in place to debate these motherfuckers!

    “The so-called ‘leadership’ of No on 8 has a great deal for which they must answer.”

    SING OUT LOUISE!!!!

    OUT OF THE SUITES AND INTO THE STREETS!!!!!!

  3. Mike says

    Wednesday, the LDS church released a comment about the measure’s passing:

    “Allegations of bigotry or persecution made against the Church were and are simply wrong. The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility toward gays and lesbians.”

    The Mormon Church also said they do not object to “the right for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.”

    They also said that some people have mistaken their involvement in moral issues for being involved in politics: “In fact, churches and religious organizations are well within their constitutional rights to speak out and be engaged in the many moral and ethical problems facing society. While the Church does not endorse candidates or platforms, it does reserve the right to speak out on important issues.”

    My level of contempt for LDS and for that matter the Catholic Church is beyond words. While it maybe somewhat cathartic to picket and demonstrate against them – that isn’t where the battle will be won.

    Going forward, I think we do the court cases and see how the state Supreme Court rules. We don’t take it to the Federal level now. We will lose if we do.

    I think the approach of getting the state completely out of the marriage business is maybe the best approach now. Here is how I understand that approach:

    1. Marriage in California is between a man and a woman.

    2. That statement conflicts with the state equal protection clause.

    3. Since gays can no longer “marry”, no one can marry – so all we now have in California is “domestic partnerships”.

    4. California law is changed to recognize all out of state marriages as “domestic partnerships”
    5. If you want to get “married” fine – but that is done by the church of your choice. California doesn’t do marriages. If you want a contract with your spouse it is a “domestic partnership”.

    6. Now, other states and the federal government will need to either recognize “domestic partnerships” as marriage in their jurisdictions or create the same legal contract.

    7. The wingnuts can’t put a proposition on the ballot again for “marriage” because it isn’t banned. California would consider it to be a “religious union” and since we have separation of church and state, the state doesn’t sanction.

    8. The wingnuts are then “stuck”. They have painted themselves into a corner, and we have effectively used their arguments against them. “Marriage is a religious definition”. If your church wants to only marry straights, fine. But many churches also will marry gays. They will hate it, because they now will be fighting other religious groups and the argument is moved out of the business of government.

    9. I believe this is the game plan of the Gloria Allred lawsuit… and the more I think about it, the more I like it. Everyone is equal. We defuse the religious argument. I noticed on the NO on 8 commercial with the Ugly Betty cast, that they mentioned “Civil Marriage”. I thought that was kind of odd… but what the NO on 8 folks were saying was this wasn’t “Religious Marriage”. We will eventually win the “Marriage” argument – but the otherside will be kicking and screaming all the way. I think this approach now is the best of both worlds. Even Barack Obama says he is against “gay marriage” but for “civil unions”. I think this is his approach also. If we can do this in California, get the state finally out of the “Marriage” business, I think we can get this done Nationwide alot quicker.

    What do you guys think? What are the holes in this argument. I’ve been thinking about it, and think it is the perfect end run… but I must be forgetting something.

  4. lorenzo says

    While the black community did not allow Proposition to pass, it is not racist to point out that the community voted overwhelmingly in favor of it. Clearly, many black people (religious ones mostly) do not see a connection between their community and the gay one. I do not want to enter the “Oppression Olympics” with anyone, but please keep in mind that people discriminated against for skin color or religion often have their family as a support group to rely on. Many gay people are rejected by those who theoretically should be showing them unconditional love.

    Some comments from the LA Times website (commenters not all black):

    “As to the comments by LJS and others who believe that somehow Gays are somehow in the same boat as blacks and others who were Wear there minority status on their skin and therefore blacks should be sympathetic to their case, I must take inception! It is NOT the same! Try as you might you can not look at a gay person and say with all certainty that person is gay, But you CAN look at a black person and KNOW they are Black! We did not choose the color of our skin or our ethnicity. Frankly I find the assumed similarity very insulting.
    Stop complaining about the debased choices you have made for yourself, just because they are your choices doesn’t mean the rest of the world has to agree with you. We just dont want your choices influencing our children.”

    “Being gay and being black are not the same For some of us it is an issue of religion and cannot get past the point that acts of homosexuality are seen as unGodly by most. I would hire a gay person, live in the same block go to the same stores and schools with no issues. But do not ask me to make your sexual preference valid, that is the difference. The union of two men and two women is fine, just do not ask to make it a legal thing or compare it to racism. That is when you loose me. Hell a gay white man always was in front of me when it came to the picking order in America”

    “You hypocrites can’t have it both ways!
    By the way, stop putting the homosexuals on the same civil rights stage as being a racial or gender minority! Nowhere in the Bible does God say that being black, Hispanic, a woman, etc is an “abomination”, “unnatural”, or “indecent”.
    Most workplaces give the same benefits/perks to same-sex domestic partnerships anyway, so what’s all the fuss about?”
    “I’m not African-American, but how can you compare what Homosexuals are going through to what African-Americans went through (and to a certain extent, still going through).
    -Homosexuals were never forced to come to an unknown land
    -Homosexuals were never forced to do slave labor
    -Homosexuals never experienced going to seperate bathrooms or other facilities
    -Homosexuals were never waterhosed
    -Homosexuals were never denied to vote
    So spare me the, “how can African-Americans not understand what we’re going through?” crap. I doubt MLK, Malcolm X and any other civil rights leader would’ve approved of this.”

  5. noah says

    Andy,

    Have you posted Max Blumenthal’s report on the organizer of Prop 8? I don’t see the video:

    http://maxblumenthal.com/2008/11/the-mystery-man-behind-prop-8/

    Rudy,

    As I read different blogs around the ‘Net, like Americablog, I continue to be appalled by the racially charged comments blaming African-Americans for the failure to stop 8. Blaming 10% of the electorate and not looking at the other 90% is wrong and hypocritically bigoted scapegoating.

    How many gays and lesbians were involved in the fight against 8? Who led the opposition? There were endless pleas for money but how much of that was used for out reach programs?

    What seems to be happening is that people who were complacent and did nothing are now shocked that they lost. What efforts did the organizers make to tap into the existing networks of other campaigns?

    Both Joe Biden and Barack Obama spoke out against 8. Did anyone in the No on 8 campaign bother to go to the Obama Campaign that was highly organized and ask for assistance? Did the organizers talk to the Obama campaign management for ideas?

    Ten percent of the electorate are gay people. Right? Why didn’t their votes cancel out the supposed 70% of the African-American voters? Could it be that a lot of gay voters didn’t bother to show up at the polls? How many of those voters didn’t bother to vote for 8 because they are gay Republicans?

    Hmmm…? Where was the outreach program to Latinos and African-Americans? What about the lack of coverage of those African-American church ministers that did try to organize in opposition to Prop 8? Why didn’t the No on 8 leaders get African-American governors Deval Patrick or James Patterson involved? Both have been strong supporters of gay marriage in Massachusetts and New York, respectively.

    BTW, what the hell about the other 2 gay marriage bans around the country? Who funded those? Who supervised those? Oh, yeah, white people.

    Nice case of amnesia and blame the minorities.

    Pathetic.

    In all of the pictures shown in the media of the supporters of Prop 8 jumping up and down, aren’t all the celebrants white? Where is the fury against LDS? The white Mormons funded this campaign and the white Evangelicals started the campaign.

    http://maxblumenthal.com/2008/11/the-mystery-man-behind-prop-8/

    How many gay Californias didn’t bother to show up at the polls yesterday? Thirty-percent of gays voted for John McCain, a man who supported Prop 8.

    Finally, had whites not voted for Arnold Schwarzenegger, efforts by the California legislature to pass marriage laws would have succeeded years ago. But Arnold, being Arnold, vetoed every legislative attempt. 63% of whites voted for Arnold.

  6. ... says

    There is no such thing as a black gay.
    Exit polls are accurate sources of information.
    California was a battleground state.
    Every gay person voted ‘No’ on Prop 8.
    Every gay person voted.
    Every liberal voted.
    Apathy doesn’t exist.
    “No on Prop 8″ was a well-run, well-funded campaign.
    “Yes on Prop 8″ was a horrendously-run, underfunded campaign.
    The passage of Prop 8 is the end of life as we know it.
    There were never any setbacks in other movements.


  7. Me says

    Ok, this is totally off the point, but would these fags stop doing faux-hawks and putting some product on their hands and pulling their hair up into some freaky bed-head clone “hairstyle?” It’s O-U-T guys – get a real hairstyle!

  8. says

    There is another important story in last night’s march: the level and intensity of the participation by younger people (say, up to their mid 20s). I did the the whole march from Weho to Hollywood and back (a bit over nine miles, by my reckoning) and was consistently struck by who was out there. Principally, it was not those of us of the generation(s) from which most of the recent married couples came, but a younger generation that has grown up and come out with greater levels of visibility and equality–and which seems particularly affronted and incredulous that equal rights could be taken away from one day to the next. These are people who were too young to have participated in the marches and demonstrations regarding AIDS-related issues and those surrounding employment anti-discrimination. They are shaken and motivated by a different issue, one in which their personal stake is still a hypothetical marriage, probably in most cases to a person they have not yet met.

    I had noticed during the campaign itself a high number of younger people on the phone and holding signs, but last night brought it home in a way that was unmistakable. The future of this particular cause and this fight really will owe very much to generational change and the votes of these individuals (gay and straight) who have not seem some of the inequalities that some of the rest of us did at that age.

    The challenge that the existing “leadership” or the existing establishment of the gay communities will be to hear and include these voices and to impart knowledge without either preaching or stifling this energy. It is notable that the crowd broke away and started marching while the speeches were still going on. The leadership of the recent campaign must understand that, given its failure, its ability to hold the attention and control the actions of the people who care about this issue has been severely curtailed.

    In my great sadness over the outcome of the Prop 8 fight, this younger, newer energy gives me genuine hope.

  9. ATLSteve says

    Mike –
    Bingo! You are dead on. Maybe folks will finally realize mainstream society is not going to yield on what they consider “marriage” (i.e. religious connotations).

    I totally agree we should work to strip the legal rights from “marriage” for all – I don’t care what anyone does in their church.

    We’ll see if the “leaders” in the gay community finally get this realization.

  10. says

    I wonder when the California State Tax Franchise Board goes after every single Mormon “Temple”, every single so-called Church, and every other religious institution that used Church property and abused their Tax Free Status to support this POLITICAL abomination?

    The right-wing wackos have no right to use tax free $$$ to support their hate and ignorance. I hope the state sues the hell out of the cult of Mormons. But I won’t be holding my breath.

    But what I am going to do is boycott any and ALL business that sent in $$$ to these Pro-Hate 8.

    Mormons coming to my door to recruit me into your cult? Fuck you!

    Marriott Hotel? Kiss off!

    And if I noticed some Pro-Hate 8 stickers on your business front ya bastards, screw you too! You are not going to get any of MY Money to support your ignorant, bigoted self.

    I know you haters and I know where you live and work. The signs on your lawn and windows give you away.

    BTW: Who was actually in charge of the No to 8 Campaign?

  11. akaison says

    RACISM

    Keeping harping on one race when you know it was multiple races that passed Prop 8. 6 percent is never going to add up alone to 52 percent

    NON RACIST

    We need to actually talk to the black community because we haven’t done that like ever. Indeed, we have ghettoized our issues rather than building coalitions. As people are saying the Milk movie is important, if for no other reasons that it actually tries to point out where the gay movement went wrong. That was 30 years ago.

  12. David B. says

    This whole misguided rally typifies why YES ON 8 passed… and the leanings of the black community ARE NOT THE ISSUE – once again, anyone that knew what the hell they were doing would have worked around that and still succeeded.

    63% of Californians voted for civil rights for farm animals. Living conditions, quality of life, and health standards are now the right of every chicken, pig, cow, and sheep in the state of CA. The campaign was masterfully run – because the NO ON 2 message was that it would raise food prices and put farmers out of business, which it will.

    So what is the West Hollywood gay/lesbian response to the 5 – count ’em 5 – individuals that screwed us by using Prop 8 as a way to further their political and professional careers while locking qualified and experienced people out – we show up and cheer John Duran of EQ California (who wasted millions and millions of dollars) and then walk around West Hollywood and shut down all the major streets in the neighborhood to punish all the gays and lesbians trying to get home from work.

    THESE FIVE PEOPLE (from EQ California and NO ON PROP 8) MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE for derailing, once again, the progress of civil rights for gays and lesbians for their own personal gain. They take their incompetence from one gay/lesbian organization or campaign to the next leaving a trail of failure and financial ruin in their paths.

    P.S.
    Let me tell you a little bit about John Duran. He has spent his entire time on the West Hollywood city council codifying rights for pets. While other cities in the area are moving ground breaking laws for quality of life for their citizens Duran has been making sure cats are companion citizens instead of pets.

    More and more, the gay and lesbian community has as many dumbass, blissfully ignorant and uninformed members as the Republican party.

  13. Derrick from Philly says

    I’ve thought about this issue all night, and delayed checking in with Towleroad this morning because of it. It is painful.

    Yesterday morning I was all jubilant about Barack Obama’s victory, and then I read the bitter and pain-filled comments of white gays concerning the “betrayal” of Black Californians on Proposition 8. Both white and black gays have justification for being saddened by the response from Black Californians on this issue. But we CANNOT let this become an issue of black folks vs white gays–that’s ridiculous! There are too many black gays who support marriage rights also, and too many white gays who are not racists.

    The fight for gay marriage rights will continue. Gays must fight through the courts, and be prepared when right-wing groups try to overturn those favorable court decisions using public referenda. The ultimate fight may be in the United Supreme Court (a few years from now), and that is part of what the election of Barack Obama was about…for gay people.

    Also, we will have to find other ways of reaching black voters. Black Americans must be challenged to see that their response to gay civil rights is too close to that of racist whites response to black civil rights. ALTHOUGH, I ‘ve been told that on the issue of civil rights for gays
    (employment, adoption, even civil unions, etc.), black voters don’t have a problem–the problem is specifically MARRIAGE RIGHTS.

    Yesterday, I was angered by the bitter comments from some white Towleroad posters on this subject. But those were white posters who’ve made racist comments about blacks no matter what the topic of discussion was; then I began to think about those Towleroad folks who’ve always been supportive of black folks’ struggles and against racism(Sebastian, Jimmyboyo, Zeke, 24Play, Leland, Rudy & NIC, and others), and how disappointed they must have been at the California outcome. It is disheartening for us all.

    I want to concentrate on those 30% of Black Californians who voted “no” on Proposition 8. Who are they? What are their religious, educational backgrounds? Do they have openly gay folks who are close them(family, friends, co-workers, etc)? And most importantly, how do we convince more Black Americans to think like that “30%” (who voted “no”) –to MAKE them see the issue of marriage rights for Gay Americans as a moral issue for FULL civil rights for Gay Americans.

  14. peterparker says

    MIKE…what you have written is what I have been saying for at least the last two years. It is a politically expedient solution that would seem to satisfy both sides. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why some politician hasn’t come forward with this plan to ‘rescue marriage’ (I’m being sarcastic) while at the same time making us equal. I hope, hope, hope our new President has the wisdom and the leadership to push this.

    NOAH…everything you wrote is spot on.

    LORENZO…I’m appalled that the person writing in to the LA Times thinks that “homosexuals never had to do slave labor”. Hell, the Nazis threw us in concentration camps and used us FOR TARGET PRACTICE!! We know these things. Why doesn’t everyone else know it? Oh, that’s right…most people are ignorant. It’s our job to educate them!

    LANCE…not only was he hawt, he was also super friendly!

  15. rudy says

    Noah, What are you blathering on about? I asked how 70% of Blacks could align themselves with a religion that does not fully accept them and only recently permitted them to enter their “temples”. You, however, appear to be inordinately concerned with assigning blame.

    I reserve my contempt for the self-appointed “leadership” of No on 8, who squandered millions of dollars on unbelievably ineffective ads and no evidence of a ground game. I think we actually agree about the devastating effect of WeHo “bois'” apathy and naivitee but it is difficult to discern a cogent argument in your histrionics.

  16. peterparker says

    DAVID B.—obviously, you were not at the West Hollywood rally last night. By the time we took to the streets of West Hollywood (well, one large intersection at least) it was about 7:30 PM. By the time we overtook Sunset Boulevard and marched to Hollywood it must have been at least 9:30 PM, maybe even 10:00 PM. We were not delaying people from returning home from work.

    You have also managed to slander a good man. Yes, John Duran has fought for people who have pets to be considered ‘guardians’ as opposed to ‘owners’. And yes, it seems a little silly. But Duran has also fought for access to alcohol and drug recovery in the GLBT community. He also was the attorney in charge of Kolcom v. Los Angeles County, successfully suing Los Angeles County for denying medication to inmates with HIV/AIDS. He successfully defended a person charged with felony assisted suicide in People v. Green. He was the trial attorney for the Los Angeles Needle Exchange Program. He served as legal counsel for ACT UP in the ’80s. What have you done for the community, DAVID B?

  17. says

    To David B.

    I was at the rally last night and subsequent protest and march on the streets. Nothing about it was misguided. For the first time since I’ve lived in Los Angeles, it actually felt like there was a gay COMMUNITY. It felt incredible.

    Play the blame game all you want, but people were at that rally last night united ready to continue to fight. It’s easy to Monday Morning Quarterback and throw stones at people like John Duran but the fault lays on us all for not marching sooner.

    “Punishing gays and lesbians trying to get home from work”?!? I’m sorry if we march on Sunset Blvd and Hollywood and Highland to demonstrate to people that we DEMAND equal rights, I think their drive home can be delayed. Besides, 99% of the cars supported us. This march let Southern California and the nation know, that this fight is far from over.

    So perhaps you need to put down your attacks on people that tried to help, unite with rest of us and move forward.

  18. Mike says

    Thanks for the comments guys regarding what I wrote above regarding getting the state out of the “marriage” business. It just seems so simple, I keep thinking I’m missing something – and why hasn’t it been done before. Maybe we now have the pieces all in place by the way the CA Supremes wrote the Marriage decision, and the subsequent passing of Proposition 8 to make it happen. I think it is an excellent end run around the anti-gay marriage folks. We’re basically using their arguments against them. They made it very clear in their ads it was all about the “word” marriage – not about trying to take away “rights” – they went out of their way to say in their mind that “domestic partnerships” were equal to “marriage”. I just keep thinking there is a flaw here, and I can’t figure out what it is. It all seems so simple now…

  19. Alan says

    I attended the LA rally and it was empowering and great to feel the sense of collective pick-yourself- up, dust-yourself-off, start-all-over-again-edness (to coin a word :)). What was most notable from the leaders who spoke was to let anger go and not blame Black People (70% voted Yes according to exit poll data) and to take out the frustration on anyone- rather get reorganized and continue to speak rationally with others framing marriage equality as a Civil right.

  20. JK says

    I should add that a group of us (maybe 50 or 60) who started marching from West Hollywood actually made it the few miles down to the Mormon temple, where we had a nice exchange with the two guards who were manning the gate. They were enjoying taunting the protesters and referencing Leviticus, suggesting that we should “go start [our] own church.”

    West Hollywood and Beverly Hills police were amazing. AMAZING. Instead of causing trouble, they blocked intersections for us, allowing us to walk down the street loudly and with plenty of support from the sidelines. Some of the cops were even applauding the protest crowd, which caught me off guard. Once we left the Beverly Hills jurisdiction and entered West LA, the Beverly Hills police gave us advice on watching out for ourselves on the road and being safe in traffic. LAPD officers didn’t show up until we actually made it to the Mormon temple, where six or so cars pulled up on the sidewalk and milled around while we, well, milled around.

  21. Akaison says

    RE LOCATION OF THE RALLY

    The problem with the rally is that it was in the gay ghetto of WEHO. If you wanted to say people that this “affects my life” you walk through their neighborhoods to show your emotions. You don’t turn it into a celebration for celebrities.

    RE RACE

    Several states in 2004 passed antigay amendements. Including, Oklahoma, Oregon and Michigan.

    There is this numerical tidbit about Michigan, which allows us to test the “blacks are more homophobic than whites” argument.

    There is this:

    “When the anti-gay-marriage amendment passed here in Michigan, the black communities in and around Detroit pretty much reflected the same opinion as the rest of the state. Wayne county (Detroit mostly) voted 54% for the measure while statewide the winning total was 58%. Only the counties of the major universities voted against the homophobic measure. The black community is no more homophobic than the population as a whole (here in Michigan).”

    If you want to test whether homophobia is more prevalent in the African American by 70/30 percent as the exit polls suggest, then the way to do it is to see check voting patterns in the various districts to count up which way they voted on Prop 8. This number would actually be the real count rather than a faulty Exit Poll.

    THis again would require work on the gay community’s part, and would require something more than racist CW.

  22. will says

    I agree, the back of this guys shirt is
    a big problem. Why do we need to go there?
    Does he really think that will bring on unity?

    Me love some Wanda. Does anyone know if she was at the vigil or what? I think she
    was against prop 8….I didnt see anything in the text about it.

  23. chadnnocal says

    LA Mormon Temple protest

    Event Info
    Time and Place
    Thursday, November 6, 2008
    Time:2:00pm – ?
    Location:
    0777 Santa Monica Boulevard
    Los Angeles, CA

    At last night’s Prop. 8 Protest Rally in West Hollywood, thousands of people who came out in outrage to protest “the people” voting on our basic rights, were told that a protest would be held in front of the big Mormon Temple on Santa Monica Blvd. at 2pm today, Nov. 6.
    The Mormon church’s president sent a letter to all congregants asking them to get involved in the campaign to pass 8. Many responded with donations, estimated to have totaled $40-70 million. They also sent canvassers into swing districts. Even though the final votes are not tallied, it is not likely that the hateful proposition will be defeated.
    It seems the LDS does not understand there is a separation between church and state (and they well should given their history). They follow the typical conservative bigoted reaction to say “follow the rules” except that they don’t themselves. Like, don’t bear false witness.

    http://www.facebook.com/event……amp;ref=mf

  24. Alan says

    This morning, on NPR, they did a piece on the up-to-date status on Prop 8. They mentioned the overwhelming number of Yes votes from Black and Latino voters in LA County. They then interviewed a Black Reverend from LA’s biggest Black Mega Church who went on to say how God and the Bible said he and his people had no choice but to vote Yes AND how he did not care for the fact that Gay people liken their plight to Black Civil Rights. He went on to say I challenge the Gay community to prove to me how their “choice” is a Civil Right issue……

    To his Black Pastor I simply say, I will prove that being gay is not a choice, how gays are factually a minority AND since turnabout is fair play – HE should PROVE God exists and the Bible is his word since that’s his justification for Yes. I think HE should present IN COURT actual proof of God then we can go from there.

  25. anon says

    Hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call to gay youth that their “post-gay” fantasy bubble has burst and they do need to continue the struggle. I’m sure some of them have entertained the notion that they might want to get married, and that marriage and other rights go together.

  26. paul says

    I can’t believe some of the comments here. the point about how we should not protest, or the guy’s shirt is the problem. Are you kidding me?? or better yet, let’s just settle for “civil unions” to placate the people who might be offended by us calling it “marriage”. Really??
    I don’t give a shit who is offended. this is a free country…the message on the guy shirt is his freedom of expression. and we have a right to be absolutely pissed off.
    this campaign was lost due to us playing fair. The other side did not play fair!! They spread all kind of lies about what gay marriage is!! And most voters are too stupid to no any better!!!
    I am offended by them!! not by the gay people who tried!! I am offended by amount of money that was spent of both sides for this nonsense!!
    I am offended by the fact that these FAT UGLY PEOPLE who have been totally brainwashed into believing that their way is the ONLY WAY!! Fuck that!!
    The divorce rate is over 60%, what the hell are they trying to protect??
    I am absolutely appalled at some of what you people are saying!!
    I only wish we would get motivated and challenge these bastards on every level. We are an intelligent group of individuals with high IQ’s…we can fight these fuckers and beat them. Most of them aren’t so smart. And we aren’t going to be praying, but you can damn well garantee they will be when we done with them.
    They regard us as sinners, and immoral. Really?
    I am sick of being called a sinner and immoral. I am sick of religious people who hide behind their bible. Michael Signoreli challanged one of the bible thumpers to find the word “gay” or “homosexual” in their bible. The couldn’t not!!
    it is a lie to keep saying that it says it is in the bible!! Where?
    maybe the new version of bible it says it!!

    they regards us as “sissys” or “weak”. we are not weak, we just need to find good leadership and fight the fight!!

    As far this issue, Prop 8, should never have been allowed to go up for public vote. This is and always will be a civil rights issue!!

    We should challenge the tax exempt status of all of these religious organizations. In my opinion they interferred with a political process. That would teach them!!

    son’s of bitches!!

  27. Derrick from Philly says

    ALAN,

    you’re right. We have to challenge bigotry no matter what color it comes in. There were a few black pastors that spoke against Proposition 8, but not enough.

    I wish we had more Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons and Fred Lowrys–but we don’t…right now.

  28. Jaroslaw says

    David E – I know it is not your orignial great idea getting the state out of the marriage business. But good points nonetheless. The one huge hole is that even if California did everything you said, there is going to have to be one other huge law to “reform” all the existing Federal laws which have the word “marriage” in them.

    And I don’t see this idea gaining any serious ground anytime soon. Logically it make super sense. But many of the religious heteros I talk (or used to talk to) about these issues don’t understand the separation of Church and state. Yes, they can believe what they want about God (or not at all),Yes, they can push for laws they believe in (even if those views are religious in origin) UP TO THE POINT THOSE VIEWS DO NOT VIOLATE SEPARATION OR EQUALITY PRINCIPLES. The capitalized part of the sentence is what they don’t understand. And since they are the majority and for the most of the history of this country, the courts have affirmed this (incorrectly I would say).

    RE: Gloria Allred’s suit – not a lawyer myself, but when this issue first came up, it was mentioned ONCE in a Gay paper that major Constitutional changes in California must go through the legislature first. I haven’t read anymore about it. If true, the Calif. Supremes wimped out BIG TIME and allowed people to waste $75 million this campaign cost. Which could have been put to much better use.

  29. Jaroslaw says

    sorry, missed the last part of my statement on third paragraph above:

    And I don’t see this idea gaining any serious ground anytime soon. Logically it make super sense. But many of the religious heteros I talk (or used to talk to) about these issues don’t understand the separation of Church and state. Yes, they can believe what they want about God (or not at all),Yes, they can push for laws they believe in (even if those views are religious in origin) UP TO THE POINT THOSE VIEWS DO NOT VIOLATE SEPARATION OR EQUALITY PRINCIPLES. The capitalized part of the sentence is what they don’t understand. And since they are the majority and for the most of the history of this country, the courts have affirmed this (incorrectly I would say)- there is little incentive for them to even TRY to understand.

  30. Alan says

    Paul, I couldn’t agree with you more. “they regards us as “sissys” or “weak”. we are not weak, we just need to find good leadership and fight the fight!!

    As far this issue, Prop 8, should never have been allowed to go up for public vote. This is and always will be a civil rights issue!!”

    Last night the rally’s leaders were CLEARLY trying to keep us from becoming angry and/or violent. They were definitely trying to have us NOT say or do anything violent and I think that was okay with most of the crowd but some were like, wtf??!!! Time to really show anger here.

    Derek, I agree
    “I wish we had more Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons and Fred Lowrys–but we don’t…right now.”

    The Gay community is there a ready for it’s own Obama- ONE charismatic LEADER to serve as a spearhead and more importantly a Role Model for all these younger gay people (so many gay young men and women at the rally last night). A LEADER should emerge from this NOW.

    Now, get a load of this! If this doesn’t make you angry I don’t know what will…

    Christian Coalition of America Applauds Voters in California, Florida and Arizona for Abolishing Homosexual ‘Marriages’
    Contact: Michele Combs, Christian Coalition of America, 202-549-6257, michele@cc.org

    WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 /Christian Newswire/ — Among the most important news from yesterday’s elections were the banning of homosexual “marriages” in the states of California, Florida, and Arizona. Indeed, the citizens of California overturned a tyrannical judicial decision by 4 California judges (in a 4-3 decision earlier this year) by passing Proposition 8 yesterday.

    The President of the Christian Coalition of America, Roberta Combs said: “The American people are proud of their fellow citizens in the states of California, Florida and Arizona for upholding traditional marriage between one man and one woman. Christian Coalition of America will continue to fight to ensure that government serves to strengthen and preserve, rather than threaten, our families and our values.”

    Thus far, 30 states have outlawed homosexual “marriages” by an average close to 70% approval by voters through amendments to the state constitutions. In addition, the voters in Arkansas yesterday approved a measure banning unmarried couples from serving as adoptive or foster parents. It will be the goal of Christian Coalition to ensure that the other 20 states adopt similar amendments banning homosexual “marriages” including the states of Massachusetts and Connecticut which also had two judicial decisions, by one vote margins, legalizing these abominations.

  31. says

    I think all of you are insane.

    Do ANY of you have a serious problem with taxation without representation? Or do you really think you DESERVE this legal inequity?

    After MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS of hours, dollars, signs, and street protests – HOW IS THAT WORKING FOR YOU? Not angry enough yet?

    One TOWLEROAD reader recently refered to me a “One Note Protest” (OK – points for cleverness), but at least I am able to control the power I DO have, my tax money, and keep it out of the hands of a society whose laws officially hate me. This is not to “amass a great resistance” (but it COULD happen); it is to live as a free man and not be a slave to unconstitutional taxation. You have every right to WAIT 20-30 years for the civil rights you deserve NOW, but don’t expect every gay person to wait with you OR be tax compliant.

  32. Zeke says

    I would like to preface my statement here with a disclaimer. I am a regular visitor of Towleroad and long-time and frequent participant in the discussions. Some of you may have noticed that I have been AWOL for the last few months. It’s because I have spent hours a day, most every day of the last few months, trying to defeat Amendment 2 here in Florida; an amendment that directly and profoundly affects me and my family. I concentrated my education and information efforts 100% upon the African-American community, a community I have focused on in political campaigns (voter registration, GOTV, etc.) most of my adult life. I focused on this community because I knew that they were going to be targeted by the other side. Almost every day I walked the neighborhoods of College Hill and Sulphur Springs here in Tampa (which is the Tampa equivalent of South Central in LA) knocking on doors and talking RESPECTFULLY to people one on one, telling them my story and explaining to them why they should be allies with us against the forces of exclusion, discrimination and hate. Most EVERY person I talked to, regardless of what their pastors had told them, agreed and pledged to vote NO on Amendment 2. For the two weeks of early voting I was at the College Hill early voting location from the minute it opened to the minute it closed (12 hours) talking to EVERY SINGLE voter who went to vote. On election day I and my husband spent 12 hours talking to every voter who went to vote in the Sulphur Springs precinct. The response was overwhelmingly positive.

    I say ALL of that to make three points:

    1) I just got information from the Supervisor of Elections office here in Tampa that BOTH of these polling sites (each of which is about 90% African-American) voted AGAINST Amendment 2! If we had done more of this outreach across the county and across the state we would have won this thing.

    2) African-Americans are not robots who will do just what their pastor tells them to do even when they are presented with a thoughtful, respectful and well reasoned argument to the contrary. African-Americans have their own minds and their minds can be changed if only someone would take the time and effort to present them with a good argument.

    3) And I think this is the most important point of all. I wonder how many people who are ranting and raving, bitching and moaning about the Mormon Church and the African American vote did anything substantive to fight these Amendments/Propositions. Each and every person who is blaming the Mormon Church and the African-American community for these losses (Including Dan Savage) should be asking themselves the following questions: What did I do to educate and inform the African-American community?; Did I go where the MORMONS went (AA neighborhoods, community centers, churches, rallies, organizations? Did I talk to the people the Mormons talked to? Did I reach out to the people that the Mormons reached out to? If not, why not? Why blame African-Americans for their ignorance if I didn’t do anything to educate and inform them? Why blame the Mormon church for their greater outreach and the commitment to cause that they believe in?

    Anyone who didn’t do what the Mormons did to educate African-Americans should certainly accept some of the responsibility/blame for why the African-American community, in ignorance, voted the way that the Mormons and fundamentalist African-American churches told them to.

    Look, I completely understand the frustration of having another oppressed minority vote against our rights; especially in a year when so many of us worked so hard to elect Senator Obama. I just think we need to be careful that we don’t scapegoat and assign blame without accepting responsibility for our own failings. That is NOT productive and it is NOT going to get us to our goal any quicker.

    Now I bet you guys wish I, and my long winded load mouth, was still AWOL!

    :)

  33. Derrick from Philly says

    “Now I bet you guys wish I, and my long winded load mouth, was still AWOL!”

    Hell, now. It’s good to hear from you, and THANK YOU.

    I knew you were doing something valuable with your time. I knew you weren’t out drinkin’ and carryin’ on like a Mississippi writer.

    Oh, Alan, it was Reverend JOSEPH Lowry I was trying to mention. He marched with Dr King, headed the movement in Alabama for a while in the 1960s, and was pro-gay rights in his 80s.

  34. Ramsey says

    Thank you Akaison for pointing out the folly of trusting a single exit poll for determining what the black vote on Prop 8 was. Exit polls are notoriously faulty, especially when counting small minority groups (remember that the black population of California is 6.2% as of 2006, for perspective, there are SIX times as many latinos and twice as many asians). Remember that exit polls told us John Kerry won easily.

    The Field poll done on Oct. 31 showed prop 8 at 49% YES with african americans. A lot of news organizations picked that up, but neglected to mention the little asterisk next to that number in the report. It was a disproportionately small data sample! If you find 3 black folks, and 2 of them say “Yes on 8″, OMG, 66%!!

    I looked in detail at CNN’s exit poll data for African American men on prop 8. Guess what it said? “N/A” Every other racial group separated neatly by gender, but “N/A” for black men? Sounds like a small data sample/faulty methodology to me.

    As a prop 8 activist, and a black man now living in L.A., and a former Detroiter who lived in Michigan when they passed their same sex marriage ban, I can tell you that blacks are no different than any other group when it comes to this issue. It’s about religion more than race.

    The No on Prop 8 campaign was not well managed, and it didn’t convince those who were willing to be convinced. Plain and simple. The problem has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with religion.

    It comes down to one point:

    Can we allow a handful of religious sects to claim ownership of an idea/term that applies to an institution that is mostly about LAW?

    The democrats are all for having exactly the same legal rights for same-sex couples, but they shudder at the mention of the “m” word. Our goal should be to make sure our legal system CANNOT say that the word “marriage” is solely in the domain of religion.

  35. casey shain says

    i LOVE the back of that guy’s T Shirt. i protested with ACT UP in the early 90s. i am still here, i am still queer, and everyone else CAN go fuck themselves. anger is the only emotion i have left at the way we’re being treated, and anger is the only thing that will get through to those bigoted mormon fucks and everyone else that voted for it. my life is JUST as important as theirs. my love is JUST as important as theirs, and we WILL receive our equal rights under the law before i die.

  36. Cazzeggiatore says

    It’s time the Mormon sect gets its tax exempt status revoked. NOW!!!! The only way we can get this hate mongers, Bush-Cheney supporters, death penalty advocates, warmongers and pedophile hypocrites is to hit them where it hurts: the wallet. I grew up Mormon in South America and witnessed first-hand all the manipulative tactics this hate-filled bunch used in order to placate any criticism and/or to silence any negative (although true) news about their local and Utah-based leaders.

    Please, people, let’s take some action NOW and not just sit idly while this well-organized cult takes away people’s basic CIVIL RIGHTS. Let’s be INVOLVED in protecting our basic civil liberties. Remember, nothing gets accomplished by wishful thinking or hoping that the bigots will one day decide to treat you like a human being. It doesn’t work that way.

    Here’s what we ARE DOING already, and we need EVERYONE’S involvement NOW!:

    Contact the IRS immediately to Report an Abusive Transaction Involving an Exempt Organization

    You may use Form 13909, Tax-Exempt Organization Complaint (Referral) Form, to report an abusive transaction involving an exempt organization. To send a written complaint by mail, send to the following address:

    IRS
    EO Classification
    MC 4910DAL
    1100 Commerce Street
    Dallas, TX 75242

    In addition, the IRS Office of Tax Shelter Analysis maintains a hotline that can be used to provide information about abusive tax shelters.

  37. noteasilyoffended says

    No, Lorenzo, homosexuals were just placed in concentration camps by the Nazis and executed along with their Jewish cellmates (That’s where your lovely pink triangle comes form). Homosexuals were just killed and placed on a fence to die in fucking Wyoming. Homosexuals were just beaten at Stonewall for wanting the right to gather together. The list goes on and on. Get a clue and drop your religious dogma long enough to see how wrong you are.

    And I’d like to personally thank the 7 out of 10 members of the African American community for supporting the equal rights and all and for voting to STOP DISCRIMINATION of all people in any form. NOT! Read the Loving v. Virginia (1967)lawsuit. Any of the words or phrases sound familiar? The vote by the African American community overwhelmingly in favor of Prop 8 was bigotry in it’s purest form.

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