1. MikeMick says

    Okay, I accepted a long time ago that I’m hopelessly dense. But isn’t the crux of the problem with Warren is that he says we’re basically wrong and disordered, and not just that he’s against gay marriage? Compared to him likening me to a pedophile, I don’t give a fiddler’s fuck about his gay marriage position.

  2. gagme says

    etheridge’s behavior is disgusting. as usual, she gives the population at large the impression that the gay community is going to roll over and take it… again. after all the hell we’ve been through, to even suggest we should give this oaf a forum is unbelievable. and about the donut idea… great… yeah, give him even more money. idiots.

  3. says

    He says he loves the gays and wants us to all be friends and blah blah blah blah blah! Big f**kin’ deal. We worked very hard to strip us our equal rights under the Constitution. Gays are not allowed to join his church unless they denounce their sinful lifestyle and try to pray the gay away. I don’t give a rat’s ass what this man says. It’s about his actions!

  4. ChrisDC says

    Why is it so hard to grasp the idea of: yes, we agree that reaching across the aisle respecting others’ beliefs and ideas, and learning from one another is a good thing…A GREAT THING!!…we’re all for it, BUT…there’s a more fitting forum and place for that – not during the one of the most historic inaugurations in our history. The inauguration should be all inclusive and every should be able to celebrate it with respect. Rick Warren does not convey that to EVERYBODY.

  5. says

    1. (What MIKEMICK said.)

    2. When it comes to my equal humanity, there is no room for “agreeing to disagree”. None whatsoever. We’re either equal or we’re not, and if you think we are not then that makes you a bigot. End of story.

    3. I don’t give a rat’s ass what Tammy Lynn What’shername says. And Etheridge’s insights over the past couple years have been sophomoric at best.

  6. Joe Moag says

    Ehteridge was on the View last week and make Hasselbeck look like an ass when it comes to the issue of same-sex marriage. Etheridge was on point and well spoken on the matter, period.

    I know it is not pleasing that she is saying/doing what she is saying vis-a-vis Warren at this time, but a little perspective on her would seem to be justified.

  7. Yeek says

    Tammy Lynn Michael’s blog post was horrendous. Worst of all was her assertion that Rick Warren can’t be homophobic because he shows genuine love for gay people. If you didn’t know already, love and prejudice can live side by side in great comfort.

    Think about this country 100 years ago, when the overwhelming majority of men in this country did not believe women should have the right to vote. Did these men hate or fear women? Perhaps some did, but many more deeply loved and respected the wives who they had built lives with, the daughters they had raised from infancy, and the mothers who had nurtured them. The idea that they dismissed or did not value the women in their lives would have provoked genuine denial and outrage. And yet, the idea that women should have the same role in government as men would have been rejected out of hand for the same reasons that gay marriage is today: it flies in the face of all human history. It contradicts the scriptural teaching of multiple religions. It will undermine the natural structure of the family.

    These men were not filled with hate or misogyny. In fact, they were filled with respect and admiration and love for the women who were their partners, nurturers, and allies in life. But in spite of those noble emotions, these men were still filled with prejudice so profound that it approached a state of innocence. They simply could not envision women as deserving of full participation in government because…well, because it was just so obviously wrong.

    When Rick Warren says that he loves homosexuals, that he respects them and values them, and that he is not motivated by hate, he’s probably telling the truth. His actions are simply derived from a prejudice that exists in such pure state that there is little or no genuine malice. That makes him no less destructive or dangerous or harmful, and no less wrong.

  8. daisy says

    tammy lynn michaels was on oprah basically saying that if we gay people could just be happy with civil unions all would be well because then the word “marriage” wouldn’t upset the poor bigoted heteros. that household must have self-loathing homophobia in the water.

  9. says

    I’m confused. On the one hand, Saddleback sponsors a “pray away the gay” 12-step program. On the other hand, if we’re to believe Tammy Lynn and the New York Times, Warren supports legal protections for gay couples so long as they’re not called “marriage.”

    Where exactly DOES Warren fall on the homophobometer? Is he Dobson in sheep’s clothing, or truly another species?

  10. kjk says

    I don’t understand the doughnut coupons. People are asking us to send money/coupons to Warren so he doesn’t have to spend it on food for his flock of homophobes and has more available to finance anti-gay initiatives? Am I missing something here?

  11. Daryl says

    I agree that he is missing the point – I am less concerned with his being against gay marriage (as most ministers, etc. are) and more concerned with his comparisons regarding the similarity between gay relationships and those of pedophiles and practioners of incest.
    I’m also getting tired of all these gay musicians filling in as the voice and face of gay America. Elton John, Rufus W, even Melissa are all admirable artist but are obviously biased in the protection of their own musical careers. And god knows they have all made more than their share of ridiculous comments over the last few years.

  12. Alex in Boston says

    I think that inherently what has people so pissed (myself included) is that over the past 8 years we, GLBT Americans, have seen our rights, our humanity, our personal beings used by the Right Wingnuts, the GOP, as fodder in the electoral process. By the use of voter initiatives across so many states and to have struggled and worked so hard to mobilize both straight and GLBT voters to support OBAMA and to now have him shove someone like RW under our noses and into the spotlight of this historic event is truly an insult and says to us “you still do not matter’!!!

  13. Calpete says

    The position Warren’s church takes on homosexuals as members shows him to be just as bigoted as if he were living in a gated and covenanted whites-only community; there’s no difference between “loving” homosexuals but excluding them and “loving” black people but excluding them — both states are based on inborn and unalterable conditions. Reaching across the aisle only works if both parties are willing to compromise, and we have seen from Warren’s sermons and writings that he is not willing. If he lived in a restricted community, Obama would not have invited him to give the invocation.

  14. says

    @JoeMoag: Point taken… I don’t watch the View, and I rather think that putting a mental midget like Hasselbeck in her place won’t really pad Etheridge’s resume that much… but point taken. My experience watching Etheridge speak in previous attempts to represent the GLBT communities has been one of genuine nausea, so I’m glad that she had a good day. Since for some reason she is often asked to represent causes that I fervently support, I hope it’s a sign of genuine progress and improvement.

    And YEEK: Lovely post. You, I like.

  15. oliver says

    I wish Ms Etheridge and her would-be spouse lots of happiness together. But clearly these women are not deep thinkers, or at least are not thinking clearly in this instance. Evangelists are charismatic, and I’m sure that they can be charming in person. Ms Etheridge and partner seem to believe that Warren’s being nice to their faces makes up for the fact he was instrumental in taking away their right to get married. Well, nobody said that being an artist makes you very astute.

  16. Mike says

    Gene Robinson’s comments disturbed me the most on this…for him to say it was a “slap in the face” I think pretty much sums it up for everybody. Obama is stuck now, he can’t withdraw the invite without looking like more of a moron. What on earth was he thinking… his campaign never made a move without analysing the impact ad infinitum… and I guess this is their attempt at inclusion; but for pity sake, what a major blunder.

  17. Brandon says

    My gut said that the outrage expressed about Warren would cause him to engage on gay issues. It’s starting to happen and now we, Andy included, is saying that Etheridge bought his crap, etc.

    All, please explain to me how we get people on board with gay equality if we don’t ENGAGE with people that do not agree with us? Rick Warren is moderate for an evangelical and while that isn’t saying much, is it POSSIBLE that this could be the beginning of altering his stance on gay marriage? If he’s already an enemy, what harm is there in Etheridge or anyone else using this as a teaching moment for him.

    If Etheridge had basically screamed at Warren and been rude, would that have really helped things? Or, would it have simply alienated Warren and made things worse.

    Many of you saw the film Milk. Didn’t Milk actively engaged with those that opposed him? Look, I wish we could just ignore the Warren’s. We cannot. We don’t have the strength of numbers on our side–yet. Until that happens, we cannot dismiss him. We have to engage with him and people like him to try to change them. It won’t happen overnight and it may not happen at all, but we MUST try.

    Additionally, it is EXTREMELY problematical to cite Bishop Robinson in this discussion. Robinson’s thinks Warren is a “slap in the face.” Ok. How many other members of Robinson’s faith have called his ordination a slap in the face, or worse. Robinson also says that the G_d he knows isn’t the one Warren knows. Ok, so now we’re down to a debate as to what g_d knows? Isn’t that partly how we got into this mess in the first place? Warren and Robinson disagree on g_d’s opinion. I don’t want to have a debate about g_d’s opinion.

    My argument about gay equality is that the state, with few exceptions, should not be in the business of telling adults how they should order their lives or playing favorites among and between its citizens. That has nothing to do with someone’s belief in g_d.

  18. Rowan says

    @ The Milkman and @ Oliver


    I know. Am I the only person who thinks this woman and her girlfriend are not very bright?? Heh, I’ve never see such a poor representation!!

    But of course they use her cause she’s as intelligent as a newt and will pose abosolutely no harm whatsoever to the Warrens, or the View people etc.

    Lol Warren, I’m sure you could’ve picked other gays to talk to about how you are just not that homophobic??


  19. Leland Frances says

    Take me, now, Lord! Just take me now!

    JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! We’re not seeing “Stonewall 2.0″—it’s Stepin’ Fetchit 2.0.

    “Yeh Massa I knows you luvs Stepin I knows ya does but Massa could ya jus stop beatin on old Stepin so hard? Look at this pretty pitcher Stepin done brought you of all those others like Stepin. I knows if ya jus look y’all stop hatin em so much. And jes lissen to all the pretty things Miss Melissy Ann and Miss Tammy Sue done said about yous Massa. Don’t that warm your….no Massa don’t hit Stepin no more please Massa stop stop Massa”


    Who needs enemas like Rick Warren and Barack “Gays Are Issues” Obama when we have ourselves?

  20. Oscar says

    “We have to engage with him and people like him to try to change them. It won’t happen overnight and it may not happen at all, but we MUST try.”

    Brandon, I’m 46 years old. I, along with all other gay people, have been treated like a third-class citizen all of my life by “people like him.” I don’t know what world you live in, but in our world, engaging these people has done NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. They never evolve. NEVER. They do not deserve to be engaged by us any longer. I am tired and done with that failed route.

  21. says

    I’m an Obama fan (not a maniac) but it REALLY disturbs me that a professor of constitutional law from the UofC (my alma mater) can’t understand that civil marriage is a civil rights issue, not a social issue and not a religious issue.

    Can’t someone at least near the top say something sensible about this?

    And yeah, who cares what Robinson says. He should recuse himself from discussions of civil marriage when wearing his fancy clothes since it’s IRRELEVANT to his job.

  22. patrick nyc says

    I’ve agreed with most posts the last few days on this douche bag Warren, but enough of him.

    ANDY lets ring out the year and ignore his sorry ass, since it is clear Obama does not give a shit, lets not give him a forum.

  23. says

    “We have to engage with him and people like him to try to change them. It won’t happen overnight and it may not happen at all, but we MUST try.”

    Angel, that’s sweet. Naive and utterly devoid of a sense of historical understanding, but sweet.

    There’s a difference between “engaging” a bigot and rewarding said bigot with a pulpit in front of an historic and international audience. Our people have been engaging Warren’s ilk for a long time. The problem is that evangelicals like Warren don’t work from a position of evidentiary support. We can’t use reason and facts and double-blind placebo-controlled studies to convince these people of our equal humanity. It doesn’t work because the bigotry we’re talking here isn’t based on opinion, but on belief. Opinions are easily changed, comparatively. When the mountain of evidence reaches a critical mass, opinions usually change. But beliefs? No. Only paradigm-shattering personal experiences can change a belief, and even that is questionable. The know-nothing bigotry of this man and his ilk, even if it is cloaked in blissful and “love”-filled ignorance, is almost impossible to break through.

    The only choice is to wait for continuation of the already-progressing decline in right-wing religious ideology, and work to decrease the bigots’ political influence in the interim.

    And please just type out the word “God”. Unless you’re orthodox jewish, it’s just irritating.

  24. Brandon says

    Oscar: I don’t know your life experience, but I think I do understand what it is like to be discriminated against. You are upset. I understand. My question to you, and to anyone else that says we don’t engage is, what’s the alternative? Do we pick up arms?

    I imagine that what I’m saying is not what most people want to hear, but which is exactly why I’m saying it.

    African Americans did not achieve legal equality by simply ignoring anyone that disagreed. Right now 44 states have constitutional amendments or laws against gay marriage. Gays are a distinct minority.

    We have to engage with the Rick Warrens all over America if we want to change opinion.

    And as for people changing, I’ll cite Malcolm X. Malcolm X hated white people. They were “devils.” He advocated the separation of the races. Malcolm, when speaking at a college campus famously told one white woman who said that she wanted to help black equality, that there was nothing she could do. Malcolm went to Mecca and saw that it was possible for different races to live together. He began to CHANGE. He expressed regret for telling the white woman there was nothing she could do.

    I am not suggesting for one minute that you tell Warren his opinion is ok. You don’t. I am suggesting that you engage with him and the others that disagree with you.

  25. Matt says

    I agree with most of the comments. There is no way to “engage” these people. How can you reason with belief? It is their way or no way — the bible tells them so.

    The Warren choice is a colossal blunder and a perfect ilustration of yet another Democrat taking us for granted.

  26. says

    Oh for Pete’s sake… no one’s suggesting we take up arms and storm the castle. And no one’s saying we should give right wing bigots the “silent treatment”, hoping they’ll go away. Are we junior high school girls? No.

    I keep hearing “engage”. What does that mean?

    Yes, we can talk with them. Yes, we can even have high-level group meetings. We can try to find areas in which we agree, such as caring for the poor and the sick. (Funny how most of Saddleback’s and Bush’s AIDS support has been for Africa… and mostly based on abstinence… but whatever.) But there’s a difference between engaging the enemy and letting them have a major (if symbolic) role in this historic inauguration. If Warren has the ear of the President, then we and everyone else who cares about equality have a major stumbling block ahead… and we also have a huge axe to grind after all this talk of “hope” and “equality”.

  27. Oscar says

    Knock yourself out, Brandon. Keep “engaging” these people who call you a pedophile; who strip you of your civil rights, who create an atmosphere where it’s deemed appropriate to beat or kill you; who look down upon you as a sinner… as an inherently lesser person.
    Seriously, good luck.

  28. Yeek says

    Brandon, the word “engage” simply means “initiate a meaningful interaction.” It does not mean that this interaction has to be inherently respectful. Examples include engaging in debate, engage to be married, engage a transmission, or….engage in battle.

    As Dan Savage pointed out, Rick Warren asking people to “disagree without being disagreeable” after he’s got what he wanted is like announcing that ‘violence never solves anything’ right after you’ve punched someone in the face.

    And remember, Warren is not engaging in a dialogue – he’s delivering a monologue where there is no counterpoint, no one to challenge his statements, no option for a response. Let “person of faith” Obama set up his dialogue on equal terms for a change, and just maybe I’ll give him my attention. Until then, he can get bent.

  29. says

    Thank God! I thought I was the only one choking on my vomit over the Etheridge-Michaels-Warren threesome.

    I’ve been a non-fan of Michaels since her Oprah appearance, and when I think of it still I suddenly long for the time when women were seen and not heard. That she has access to a computer is frightening.

    And for the record, I thought Etheridge did a piss-poor job handling Hasselbeck on The View. Any homo with a brain ought to be able to slam dunk that dingbat and all Melissa could do was get tangled up in a pitiful virtual tie with her because she was too darn concerned with being nice.

    Bottom line, human dignity has a pretty low selling price in the Etheridge/Michaels household and so I’m not interested in being spoken for by either of them.

    One thing I would like to know is — why, if the word “marriage” doesn’t matter to Michaels, does she insist on calling Etheridge her wife? She’s not her wife, they didn’t get married (and I’ve about had it with the line that “they can’t because of Proposition 8″ — they didn’t meet on November 5! They’ve got two kids, they chose not to get married. 36,000+ of us did). These are the last two people who ought to be acting as spokespeople for gay marriage.

    Words like “marriage” may not matter to Michaels, but they matter to me, they matter to my wife, and to our children — and they sure as hell matter to the Rick Warren’s of the world. I’m not conceding anything to these people anymore–least of all my dignity.

    Besides, nobody wants my autograph.

  30. says

    You’ll have to fight me for him MILKMAN.

    I have the feeling (silly hope?) that Warren is not actually that smart and is too rabid to be hugely popular, esp. after the last 8 years for right wing crap, and that he will flame out (no pun intended?). Yes, he’s charismatic, but I don’t think he’s Billy Graham material.

  31. says

    I dunno Yeek, being “a horrible person” can be hot sometimes. Depends on how you define that. :-)

    Seriously though, Anastasia Beaverhausen has a point (and a thoroughly awesome screen name to boot). “I’m not conceding anything to these people anymore — least of all my dignity.” I see this statement as being indicative of the feelings of most of the GLBT people I know… and I hope that it also means that our people are ready to rise up and fight.

    And we will fight whether the foe is Mr. Warren or… surprisingly… Mr. Obama. We may not win, but with the statements I’m hearing from GLBT people all over the place, I’d count on a scorched-earth policy. No more Mr. Nice Gay.

  32. James Poppinga says

    I don’t think Rick Warren is cognizant of the pain he has caused and the difference in having a round-table discussion about religious beliefs and taking taking that religious belief and denying people happiness and a civil right. We’re not asking him to change his beliefs just don’t use them to fuck us over.

  33. peterparker says

    @KJK: the idea to send donut coupons to Warren/Saddleback arose after he was quoted as saying members of Saddleback Church served ice water and donuts to GLBT activists who showed up at Saddleback Church to protest his views on gay/lesbian relationships and on Prop 8.

  34. says

    Why are you people ignoring Rev. Lowery? Is he somehow invisible to you or does Warren allow you to feel like a victim and you prefer that.

    I love this site but cripes these tears over Warren mark the end of the legitimacy of the American Gay Rights movement.

    GROW UP!

  35. SteveDenver says

    Rick Warren is so full of hot air. He just LOVES everyone, when he’s not demeaning them.

    As for Etheridge, your Christmas song sucked and so does your willingness to ignore a man who helps fuel homophobia through lies and alarmism.

    Rick Warren: No donut left behind.

  36. GaryJ says

    I hate to tell you so, but I said that Obama is just another politcian, just because he talks more about the Gay community doesn’t mean he’s going to do anything more than the rest.
    Hence his choice of Warren.

    If you want to get more done, do with as would any other politician, money speaks volumes.

    The calling in Gay day was interesting idea, but wouldn’t work, it would just give the rednecks a reason for firing a fag.

    Now if the Gay community started closing their purses and pull their money, you would see something happen.

    Hit them where their god is, the almighty currency!

  37. Brothermilk says

    No one can take Tammy Michael’s seriously as an intellectual….Here is her blog about
    Melissa’s revelation that Warren may be their friend:

    Friday, December 19, 2008
    as the universe laughed at me, i got a little spittle in my eye

    aw, dammit. so then the universe kicked me in my ass. i was hustling through the back door with arms full of solstice gifts when honey approached me, almost breathless.

    “you’ll never guess who the keynote speaker is at the Muslim [blah blah] tomorrow night.” her eyes were round as my fist, and her glasses were sliding down her nose. multiple names ran through my mind. and then i knew. i knew in a moment. i knew in a moment the way a train can barrel through a car in a moment. not even enough time to inhale.

    “fucking rick warren,” i stated.

    she nodded.

    “shit. i just called him a dick in my blog.”

    she nodded faster. then she grinned a grin like only honey-with-an-idea can grin. that grinch grin when he thinks who-ville is screwed out of christmas, and they’re all miserable? that kind of grin. “i’ve asked to speak to him for 10 minutes. we’re all in this together– i want to reach out and be in this as one. if we really ARE supposed to be tolerant, then we’ll talk.”

    i was agape. i hear about this guy, and i’m calling him crude names of male anatomy parts. honey hears about this guy, and she’s all peace-pipe-hold-my-hand-and-sing about it. we need more people like honey. i digress.

    which is sometimes better than the point at the time. a digression.


    posted by Tammy, midwestern girl/Mom | 19.12.08

    << Home

  38. Brothermilk says

    Tammy is a woman with deep thoughts.
    Here is one of my favorite ones:

    posted by Tammy, midwestern girl/Mom | 21.12.08

    peace, fuckery, and good tidings to all!

    i was trying to think of more ways to use “fuck”. i just am really enjoying the use of that word in life right now. let’s find some more variations of the expressive word, shall we?

    fuckit to me

    and so on… geez, i could go on forever. so fun. i’ll add more later as i think of them.

    the reason for all things “christmas” is today- winter solstice. happy winter solstice.

    oh- and i don’t speak for the complete lezzie bean population AT ALL. i don’t attempt ta, don’t want ta. you’s gonna wanna walk right out the door if you’s here ta read yerrrrr feelin’s/thoughts in my blog, expressed the way YOOOO would express ’em. heh heh. git your own blog, toots, if m’fuckery is too foul-mouthed fer ye. heh heh. and, in spirit of the season: here’s a tongue-kiss for anyone who wants one. :-)

  39. Richard on Cape Cod says

    .. that ANYONE be they Etheridge, Obama, or Liberace’s ghost would buy this horse manure now-coming out of Warren’s camp defies comprehension. WHAT CAN ANYONE who thinks this “reaching across” horseshit is valid be THINKING??

    It appears that the legacey of self-loathing we as gay men and women have allowed to subliminally affect our thinking is considerably more profound than previously thought.

    HEY MELISSA? He thinks you’re a big dyke and that you have no right to marry your partner! GOT IT?

    Make no mistake Ms Etheridge is a light weight.

    Hey Rick Warren? “Reach across the aisle” and TOUCH THIS!! No wait. Get your fucking hands away from me you glib motherfucker. Even in your teens I bet you were one mealy-mouthed overweight little asshole. I will say, however, I enjoy wathcing you speak from both sides of your face. Quick! Cover those tracks..

    “Reach out” my arse.

  40. says

    Etheridge is a Quisling or even a Chamberlin. Either way she is a rich Gay who has everything she needs and wants. Because of this she has no clue what goes on at the street level.

    Hopefully, I’ll never be subjected to her screechings at my lesbian buds parties ever again! That alone would make Warrens invitation worth it.

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