1. Brice says

    It’s unfortunate how people who are simply seeking to find peace of mind fall into these evangelical cults and get trapped into believing that they are doing something good for themsleves. The twitching and people screaming in the background and falling on the ground should be a clue that this is an unhealthy environment for anyone. How sad for that poor misguided kid. I hope he finds a happier path someday.

  2. Patrick says

    As a gay man and as a Christian, this makes me sick. Even more, this kid (minus the spasms and drugs) was me six years ago. And the laughter all the way up until he says he’s “ex-gay” really shows how evangelicals see this. They will judge and harass you until they realized you’ve kowtowed to their skewed interpretation of Christianity, then make you their golden child.

    I’m terrified that this is the message that most people get of Christianity, without realizing that conservative evangelicals do not represent the majority of Christians. This kind of behavior is not what Christianity stands for. Kids being told that God hates them, fucking them up for life, is not a Christian value. For the love of God, please don’t lump all Christians in with these people.

  3. Rodney says

    Sorry if I offended you, Patrick. I try to stay away from generalization, but for some organized religion just gets my goat. Maybe I’ve been exposed to one too many focus on the family types.

  4. Nate says

    I think you guys are misinterpreting the video.

    The audience is not laughing at him, they are laughing with him.

    The “spirit giving him joy” is a particular movement in Charismaniac fundamentalism wherein participants laugh uncontrollably under the influence of the Holy Spirit, often with convulsions as well.

    You can see a texbook example of this here:

    I can see how you might think that this boy is experiencing muscular problems, which the audience is mocking, but that’s just simply not the case. More disturbing actually.

  5. kujhawker says

    Patrick do something as a Christian do something about it. I live in the midwest. The loudest voices are that of the conservative evangelicals. When they do something crazy or distort Christianity, the voices I hear in opposition are mainly from atheists, agnostics, non-religious, other religions. And only a few Christians.

    I have had Christians come up to me and say that is not where I stand that is not what I believe in. When I ask them why aren’t the out there counter protesting, or shouting them down, or getting the message out, I just get blank looks.

    This is the problem with many religions and organizations. The sane ones withing the organization have some fear of speaking out against the crazies.

    So till the voices of the more moderate Christians is loud enough to drown out these wack jobs, many of us will see that as representing the majority, because it is the only evidence we have.

  6. Rick C. says

    This is shameful on so many levels, I am just not sure how to respond. My only hope is that this poor kid can actually get some real help. This is just so wrong.

  7. TANK says

    Patrick’s making an impotent argument. This is, in fact, the kind of activity that christianity stands for. There’s no such thing as a true christian. You’re making an invalid argument that is guilty of the no true scotsman logical fallacy. Say a Scot is reading the paper, and happens an article about a serial killer who hacked to bits several innocent people. He exclaims that no scotsman would ever do such a heinous thing. Well, he comes to find out that the man in question was scottish. He then says, “well…no TRUE scotsman would ever do such a thing.” Try as you might, the only thing means by ‘true’ in that sentence are scotsman that agree with him and wouldn’t do that. So basically, when people talk of true christianity, they mean only christians that agree with them, leaving untouched all those christians who don’t. These sick degenerates have just as much biblical references in hokum to support their repulsive beliefs as members of UCC or other “moderate” minority cults of the christian cult have to support theirs. There’s no “truth” to be had when you divorce your belief system from reality…you can spin it however you want. And all moderate christians do is protect the envangelicals and other bigoted christians from having to answer for their beliefs because you both refer to and DEFEND the same source to validate your fantasies. That’s the purpose you serve: a buffer of protection.

  8. Aerosky says

    Ok… as a former Assembly of God/Pentecostal Church member, these crackpots are not laughing directly at this poor misguided kid. It is, as these people believe, “being in the presence of the spirit” that is making them laugh. They feel so overjoyed that the presence of god is in the room, they express it by laughing. As for his twitching and stuttering, if you want to call it that…it is also the supposed manifestation of the holy spirit that is making him do that. If you watch closely, other people in the audience are doing the same exact thing. This breed of christians, if you want to call them that, are actually suffering from severe psychosis and are virtually on the border if not already completely insane. I find it funny that when you go to different churches, you can actually see different types of “twitching, speaking in tongues, etc.” They truly feed off each other. At the church I went to, people spoke in tongues the same way….at this church/revival, everyone twitches the same way. Completely ridiculous. Hopefully this kid will get some serious help from a source outside the church when his temporary feeling of being and ex-gay goes away and that he gets checked into rehab to get off the drugs.

  9. Jexer says

    Alternate perspective:

    This is all about ante-ing up in the congregation’s Faithy poker. It’s not just that you act like you have the spirit moving through you. Anyone can profess they love god and act like they’re feeling his grace, if you found God easily, how nice for you. Easy come, easy go. Makes for bad entertainment for the congregation.

    For these writhing on the floor speaking in tongues crazies… it’s all about the story-telling… how much have YOU had to give up, overcome, or sacrifice in order to come to Jesus?

    The game here is “How well can you spin a sympathetic story about your life that ‘moves’ others.” (doesn’t matter if there’s any lasting truth to it… if you fall from grace, then you come back with a better story next time.)

  10. Jexer says

    Tank: by your argument, all people are murderers. Try again.

    There are decent Christians in this world, doing their best to be virtuous, non-judgmental, forgiving, and compassionate. I met quite a few, and they understand that there’s no forcing ‘the will of god’ on anyone, each person must come to it on their own. They’ll help if asked, but they don’t push.

    Painting all Christians with the same brush is just as unhelpfully seperationistic as when the mouthy fundy self-proclaimed Christans insist that gays must hide who they are “to protect the children”.

  11. patrick nyc says

    These people will learn the truth if there is in fact a God in the after life. Mean while here on planet Earth, I’d like to kick them int the fucking ass.

  12. GOD says

    There were also many decent communists in the Soviet Block, doing their best to be good citizens, non-judgemental, forgiving and compassionate – this does not mean that communism itself along with a lack of any evidence for its merits, isn’t a harmful ideology to be applied to humans. The same applies to Christianity.

  13. TANK says

    Jexer, that’s simply flat out false and based on a complete misunderstanding of what I wrote. All people aren’t murderers (though could provide you with a compelling argument that you can cash out the cost of your latest leisure expense in human life if you’d like one…) by that argument. Instead some scottish people are murderers, and so are some christians (e.g., the one that murdered the abortion doctor and was recently found guilty)…and they’re true scotsman, and true christians for there’s no meaning to those statements “true christian” and true scotsman beyond what you arbitrarily happen to agree with.

    That logical fallacy (it’s an informal logical fallacy you should do some research on) simply states that the only meaning to ‘true’ in “true christian” is whatever pick and choose christianity you happen to subscribe to (and they’re all pick and choose).

    I’m not disputing that there are decent people in the world who happen to be christian, but it has little if anything to do with “christianity,” but another standard that enables them to pick and choose which christian verses to act on if they’re even acting on explicit christian principles at all in being good…and oh yes, acting on some christian principles would make you a very bad person, indeed (and no, virtue isn’t exclusive to christianity or any religion). But WTF, I highly doubt you even know a virtue is.

  14. John says

    I am not sure this growing radicalism within Christianity is limited to the evangelical community. Liberals have been abandoning “mainstream” Christianity – Anglicanism, Catholicism, Lutheranism – at an alarming rate. And these churches have responded by inviting in every misguided radical they can find that the evangelicals and Muslims haven’t gotten to already. The vacuum is being filled by Mel Gibson, Bill Donahue, and their fellow travelers. These are folks whose theological views aren’t significantly different from the Biblical literalists that old-school Anglicans and Catholic used to loathe. Yet, they have become the face of mainstream Christianity.

    And it is going to get much worse before it gets better. Because that’s what you see happening with all the other religions too. Islam has certainly fallen to the fundamentalist fervor, and like Christianity, is bent on dominating the entire world. Even the less aggressive religions – Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism – are becoming more radicalized as a reaction to these outside threats.

  15. nic says

    good god! indeed, if there is a “good” god, he would smite all those exploitative people down. THIS KID NEEDS MEDICAL HELP!!! he should not be paraded around like a trained monkey. every time i think these xtians have sunk lower than whale shit, they continue to surprise me. a decent god would not let this blasphemy continue.

    may your god have mercy on your misguided souls.

  16. William says

    That scene. That auditorium. Reminds me of Sissy Spacek in “Carrie.” I wish he’d snap out of it and do a Carrie White right there, with all those that abused him and taunted him for being gay AND those that are abusing him, positioning him as an ex-gay to spread their bogus message now, all getting exactly what they deserve (and say they want), to meet their maker ASAP. KC is loaded with whacked out racist evangelicals, Lee’s Summit. Half the kids there are on something and likely to leave the place to cruise up and down the business loop, have pre-martial sex or vandalize something. In fact, they are just like those in the movie.

  17. GOD says

    TANK –

    Actually, is is possible to objectively determine who is a “true” christian if by “true” you mean “one who most closely follows the bible” Such definition is not entirely without merit since the bible is the only book on which the entire religion is based. So the “truest” Christians are in fact the most fundamentalist Christians, i.e. the ones who stick to the fundamentals of their religion and does not treat it like a salad bar.

  18. Patrick says

    These asshats just need someone to beat up on (it makes them feel better). But I won’t waste my time talking about them when this kid obviously needs professional help. I see a HUGE relapse coming for him. He needs help and love (and a hug) and all they want to do is parade him around like sick dog they picked up on the side of the road.

    They are not Christians. They are haters.

  19. nic says

    i tried to post a comment on their channel. i got a message saying,”comment pending approval.” i’m not holding my breath.

    nevertheless, here it is:

    these xtianists have no sense whatever of decency. this kid needs medical help. why would they want to parade a sickly child as if he were a trained monkey to advance their agenda? may their god have mercy on their twisted souls.

    i have never wept out loud over any video display of exploitation and indecency until i watched so-called xtians treat this boy in such an inhumane way.

    fuck the whole lot of you to hell.

  20. TANK says

    “Actually, is is possible to objectively determine who is a “true” christian if by “true” you mean “one who most closely follows the bible” Such definition is not entirely without merit since the bible is the only book on which the entire religion is based.”

    I’m not unsympathetic to this. To be a christian, I’ve often said you need to be antigay. Therefore, don’t be a christian. However, the problem is that there’s really no exact meaning to the bible…it’s full of contradictions. Is there a meaning beyond what people arbitrarily choose it to mean? I don’t think so.

    “So the “truest” Christians are in fact the most fundamentalist Christians, i.e. the ones who stick to the fundamentals of their religion and does not treat it like a salad bar.”

    LOL! That’s right, the truest are the fundamentalist biblical literalists. Not a pro human rights bunch, them. But even then, the bible’s meaning (like the meaning of anything) is underdetermined by text such that it’s possible to come up with many inconsistent conclusions from the same verses. And people do so with religion more than they do with almost anything else, because there’s no wrong answer when all you have is what you can conceive of. We wouldn’t conclude it’s meaningless, though. It means something for christian A that it doesn’t for christian B, but there’s no absolute meaning.

  21. Drew says

    I think he actually had an orgasm the moment he mentions that he had gay thoughts all his life. Nothing like beats the mental picture of a sweaty Kellan Lutz, lol… Guess he couldn’t help himself one last time.

  22. John says

    In order for fundamentalist Christianity to work, we need to build more city walls. We can’t very well throw disobedient children off the city walls if we don’t have them, can we?

    Maybe we can contract it out to unionized workers.

    The America Reinvestment and Recovery Act – getting America back to work the Jesus way!

  23. Clay says

    Never mind whether they’re laughing at or with him, or any of the rest of the minutiae. I want to know what can be done to help kids like this and take on these sleazy ex-gay groups. I mean protests, lawsuits, lobbying, complaints to Child Welfare. And how can we use decent people of faith, liberal churches, etc, to fight these Neanderthals.

    I really don’t give a shit what you think about God or religion either way. How about we focus on the victim?

  24. TANK says

    “I really don’t give a shit what you think about God or religion either way.”

    Apparently these people do. After all, he became a victim somehow, right? And it wasn’t because people don’t give a shit one way or the other about what they think of god.

    This kid’s probably been abused his whole life.

  25. GregV says

    “To be a christian, I’ve often said you need to be antigay.”

    Tank, if a Christian is a follower of Christ, then that would not appear to be at all true. Jesus never said a single word on record against homosexuality, gay couples or gay individuals. He even taught people that, when encountering the eunuchs, who sere sexually different from the majority, they should look within their hearts and accept them if they can. He didn’t even tell anyone to follow the Bible. The Bibles we have did not even exist in his time; much of it was written and chosen, and later altered, by councils and individuals he had not in any way authorized, well after his time.
    A lot of people who call themselves Christian follow whatever wind happens to be passing through town during their own time and culture (like the racists of the mid-twentieth centurywho thought it would be unchristian to treat blacks as humans), but it rarely has anything to do with what Jesus actually advocated and more to do with current persuasive leaders who manage to get a lot of people behaving as sheep to back THEIR personal biases.

  26. TANK says

    Atheists for jesus. I can’t say that I take too much issue what he had to say. But try reading that in context, gregv…to understand it. Christianity certainly does not equal following ONLY the teachings of jesus for most christians. There’s the rest of the bible, too…

    But you do affirm for me, at least, that there’s no wrong way to be a christian…you can be a christian and only follow the teachings of jesus while ignoring the rest of the new testament and all of the old testament. You can also be a christian and follow more than just what jesus preached, which most christians do…

  27. says

    It’s called snake oil. That whole thing was an act. That kid isn’t anything he claimed to be cured of. He’s a plant in a well messaged propaganda machine targeting gays and lesbians. Does anyone really think that kid was a crack cocaine and heroine addict??? He looks like he just came from a jonas bros. concert. This is how they operate. It’s all one big con job to keep the faithful in line, most likely for a profit.

  28. Daniel says

    Living in Kansas City I have come into direct contact with these people at IHOP. They are not quite right. I don’t belive all christians are like this. Just down the road, literally, is Unity Village a christian organization that advocates prayer and has a 24 hr phone prayer line. They are nothing like these people. I feel so sad for this young man.

  29. David says

    Tank and Rafael’s posts just prove that fundamentalists atheists are identical to fundamentalists Christians in everything but their target.

    The claims you two are posting about Christians are exactly as false as those that homophobes make about GLBTQ people.

    You are no different from any homophobe – maligning millions for your own entertainment, over something they experience and value that you do not.

    The civil rights that GLBTQ people do have are primarily the work of people of faith – GLBTQ people of faith, and heterosexual people of faith.

    There are no atheists organizations working to advance the cause of civil rights for GLBTQ people. What little work atheist groups are doing to advance civil rights – is only for their own benefit, and often at the expense of others – remarkably similar to the activity of homophobes.

  30. Paul says

    cute cute CUTE kid and you know it…with nice hot hair, cap, thin bod. fucked up-but really cute and u know it…The twitching is definitely odd and by far annoying in my eyes, but also a bit endearing, shame on them…the holy spirit made them laugh…what is the ___ holy spirit? …a pigeon under a bright sun…somebody explain?? give this kid some help and let him be AMEN!

  31. William says

    Why do the Christian Taliban assume that to not believe in Jesus that one is an atheist? An atheist believes there is no god. Certain of it. An agnostic has no idea and doesn’t assume to know. I’m certain most people are agnostics, regardless of what roving band of suppressors they run with. Frankly, I’d rather see agnostic billboards up in subways.

  32. Blake says

    David, there’s no such thing as a “fundamentalist atheist”, you moron. Atheism isn’t a religion.

    And yes, we are (conversationally) intolerant and mocking of your superstitious Christian beliefs, because those beliefs…are fucking stupid. Much like sane people mock those who believe Elvis is still alive and the belief that Xenu is the galactic overlord who 75 million years ago, brought billions of his people to Earth in a DC-8 jet, put them around volcanoes and killed them using hydrogen bombs.

    Sounds pretty kooky and retarded huh? Well that’s Scientology for you, and your silly religion has just about as much going for it in terms of actual evidence that they do. Which is of course to say, it has none at all.

    And William, prithee tell us, are you an agnostic with respect to Poseidon? How about Thor? Hm? Still waffling around trying to decide whether you can REALLY be certain or not about his nonexistence? Still have “no idea” as to whether leprechauns exist or not? No, of course not. Stop with the agnostic shit. It’s semantic wankery. You’re an atheist like the rest of us.

  33. GregV says

    I don’t know what atheist groups you’re talking about.
    Many theists (such as Baptists, Catholics, etc) belong to groups whose aim it is to convert others, while most atheists do not belong to any such organized group. I know many atheists, none of whom belong to an atheist organization or club, per se. Many of them are among the most compassionate and principled people I know, and they do, indeed, strive for equal rights for people as well as other causes such as compassion for animals, medical care for the poor, etc. etc.
    They don’t necessarily connect such causes to atheism itself and feel no need to exclude anyone of other beliefs who also supports the same ideals.

  34. sam says

    That seems like a fake testimonial to me. The twitches seem like he made it up in rehearsal the day before. The story doesn’t match his appearance. How many serious crack and heroine addicts look like they just auditioned for a new family channel pilot? Or maybe he cleans up very well!

    We all know that many of those late-night commercials for religious programs are littered with fake stories of cured diseases. This seems like another one to me. But if not, how pathetic is that church?

  35. laffootguy says

    All those people are just plain NUTS. Trust me been there and done that. If I had enough room in my comment box I could tell ya what I and my partner went through. And by the way I’ve only met 1 person who I would have said to be a true christian she has since pasted away aside from her I’ve never met a “christian” who wasn’t judgemental and just plain crazy. And I lump my parents in the group of idiotic non thinkers

  36. Blake says

    ^Oh, you mean where people still hang on every last syllable of THE POPE and where Muslim immigrants regularly terrorize gay people and still commit the occasional “honor killing” and where you aren’t free to say what you think about these things because “anti-hate-speech” laws prohibit making comments that might give somebody with laughable superstitious beliefs an emotional ouchie? That Europe? Yeah, good luck with that. Thank Zeus I DON’T live there.

  37. hobo says

    “Thank Zeus I DON’T live there” – Blake.

    Yeah, living as I do in Europe, I think I can heartily agree with that comment. The funniest thing about some Americans, and I am in a civil union one who had to move here because the “land of the free” doesn’t recognise his relationship for immigration purposes, is how lacking in self-awareness they are. At least we have legislation to protect LGBT people, we allow LGBT people to serve in the military, we have civil unions and gay marriage in many countries (including predominantly Catholic ones) and we don’t have f**ckwit homegrown Catholics threatening to withdraw homeless aid if the legislature passes any LGBT friendly laws. Hey, actually we didn’t have racial segregation here in the 60s and we got rid of slavery without having a civil war. And yeah, we had empires and colonies, but we gave it back and didn’t carry on living there and push all the indigenous people we hadn’t slaughtered into reservations – unless you’re native American, you’re all “colonialists” and interlopers. Jeez, the things I read on here – no wonder my partner moved to Europe.

  38. thedevlin says

    Tank thank you so much for such a succinct argument. It pretty much just blows all religion out of the water (if it has as a basis a text or ideology which can in any way support radically opposite view points and behaviors). I also happen to be Scottish – I’m not sure if I’m true or not though lol.

  39. Sean says

    How can this possibly be a subject for any debate among logical thinking people?

    I live in that city and though I thankfully do not know who and or what this particular group is, I cannot imagine anyone in any way condoning it.

    It cannot be justified, it cannot be explained, it cannot be forgiven.

    It’s brainwashing plain and simple. These people will obviously go to any lengths to win their point. Including destroying the mind of a young person.

    I hope their hell is a real and tangible thing. Because if there really is a God in the heavens that is where these people are going.

  40. Duncan Osborne says

    The spasms are seen as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, like holy laughter, which can be heard on the video, or speaking in tongues. If you look at other videos from this event, you will see other speakers twitching in a similar fashion.

    The Holy Spirit prevents such symptoms from interfering with the speaker’s ability to bear witness. How convenient, if I may quote a satirical character whose commentaries on religion were consistently biting and on point.

  41. says

    For me the real sadness and the question that needs to be answered is what in these people’s lives, what horror drives them to need this kind of environment for support and security? what has happened to these people that they are so scared of the rest of the world that that has led them to seek out and accept this as an avenue to peace of mind. Something must driven these people to what seems to be a place of utter desperation. So many young kids it is really sad, are their lives really so sad that this seems like the answer?

  42. GOD says

    “Tank and Rafael’s posts just prove that fundamentalists atheists are identical to fundamentalists Christians in everything but their target.”

    LOL Fundamentalist atheist?? What the hell is that? Atheism unlike christianity or communism or fasicsm or islam etc is not an ideology at all, it is the absence of a particular belief. So there are no fundamentals to base it on hence it can never be “fundamentalist” Nice try though, very common canard among the so called “liberal” christians to compare the absence of belief in a deity with an oppressive totalitarian and bogus ideology like christianity.

  43. Rodney says

    Loneliness. Loneliness borne out of rejection. Some people just aren’t palatable to a lot of others and their resulting loneliness drives to ANY PLACE where they would be accepted.

  44. GOD says

    “An atheist believes there is no god.”

    NO. An atheist believes there is absolutely no evidence a god exists in the same way there is no evidence Big Foot exists. So an atheist is as certain about god’s non-existence as most reasonable people about Big Foot’s non-existence. It is all about probabilities… an agnostic is someone who thinks there is a 50-50 chance of a god existing which is of course a non-sensical position. In the absence of any evidence whatsoever, the best one can say is there is perhaps a 0.01% chance a god exists and even less of a chance that the christian variant is the correct one…this is what most atheists believe. One cannot prove a negative and should never be expected to do so.

  45. John says


    I love this new version of history where only Americans are colonialists. And the rest of the white people are humanitarians who gave back all their conquests out of the goodness of their hearts.

    Because as we all know, the French left Algeria and Vietnam peacefully. The Dutch developed Indonesia and South Africa into a virtual paradise of blissful tolerance. The English definitely did not treat the indigenous peoples of Canada, India, and Australia poorly. The Belgians did not create any slave labor camps in the Congo. The Germans totally left the inhabitants of Southwest Africa alone when they rolled in. And nobody forced the Chinese to sell opium to their own people – a trade that killed millions – against their will.

    While Americans are certainly guilty of horrible atrocities against the native population of this country, as well as the black slaves who were brought here from West Africa…

    They had friends.

  46. Tom says

    Shamanism alive and well. Odd. I feel bad for this kid. He’ll either discover his own will eventually or he won’t. In the meantime, he’s being used. That said, maybe he really is “ex-gay”? But does that mean he’s straight? But then the “Christians” have always believed that if you’re incapable of sexually loving a member of the opposite sex then one ought not to sexually love at all. Thank God for separation of church and state, right?

  47. nwjeff says

    Hey it is obvious that almost no one knows what is going on and are probably afraid. What you see happening is the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself on this kid. I have been a part of this type of movement Charismatic for the last 24 years and much of what is seen you started seeing back in the early 90’s with things like the Toronto Blessing. So the laughter the body shaking etc.. is just sometimes the way God chooses to reveal that He is real and present in every day life. I also recognize that most people in the world even in the “church” world are not aware of this and would be afraid but it is what it is.

    Now what I would like to say though is that what I will disagree with is that this kid has not been freed from homosexuality. I have had this happen to me too many times to count and my attraction to men never did leave me. This kid was dealing with addictions not only drug but probably sexual as well. And addictions need to be dealt with. And this is where the ex-gay movement got it wrong from the beginning. The addictive, hidden, shame filled nature that was associated with being gay was not addressed just the fact that the a lot of the church disapproves of people being gay. I would like to hear and see this kid and his journey in life 10 years from now and see how he feels and what he thinks of his continual attraction to other men.

    Now to get to another

  48. Tom says

    ps Hobo, as a German living in the U.S. now these past 20 years, allow me to adopt the local vernacular and call you a dipshit.

    And yeah, the more I think about this video, the more I do believe it’s all a fabrication. It’s like watching the Disney channel, only for wingnuts.

    And one more thing, if this “speaking in laughter” concept really does represent an “embodiment” of the holy spirit speaking through [its]? flock, then the holy spirit is kind of an asshole.

  49. nwjeff says

    Tom can see you have no grid for this kind of thing which is understandable as well most folks do not. But the issue is not whether we understand or not for God is much bigger than our minds and beings. The issue is the message this kids testimony gives off and how it affects other kids who may be there. And the other thing is that Desert Stream Ministries one of the largest ex gay ministries is a part of IHOP, International House of Prayer and the Metro Christian Fellowship which IHOP is a part of.

  50. TANK says

    NWJEFF, I read your posts and am dismayed. I mean, you clearly have had a rough time reconciling your faith with your sexuality. I don’t see a complete person when I read your “contributions” to this discussion, but a broken man. It’s never a pleasant thing to behold.

    These ticks and laughs can be explained very easily with a physiological/psychological model. These are verifiable through empirical means, and require no needless supernatural explanation. They can be duplicated in sensory deprivation. For example, go a month or two without jerking off…

    As to your comment that god is much larger than our minds and beings, I think you mean that god is capable of creating a logical contradiction…or nothing…which is to treat it as “something”…and misunderstand the grammar. I don’t think you’re very good at modern apologetics…or versed in them or logic. But on an existential level, if “god” is much larger than our minds and beings as you state, it thereby has no relevance to our lives for we can’t even begin to come to grips with it in any way…for if we can’t understand it on any level, then it’s just as good as not existing at all. Which is the case anyway, as there’s no difference that you can possibly indicate without begging the question between god existing and not existing.

  51. GOD says

    Holy Spirit – Holy Shmirit! This is mass psychosis plain and simple. What these people need is some potent antipsychotic drugs in the water supply for a month.

  52. Nick says

    I have a split belief on this. Socioeconomic factors, the effects bullying, mental abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and other factors can form male to male attraction as a symptom of desiring stability, or in avoiding the recurrence of the sufferings experienced by children during their childhood and/or adolescence.

    Some of the people who identify as “gay” do so as a result of the latter.

    I am gay because I was born that way, I KNOW that it cannot be changed, and I don’t see being gay as a sin. As a gay person in my Christian faith, I don’t buy that lie which is sold by many sects and denominations the broader christian church for social morality control. There is nothing that is intrinsically immoral or sinful about being gay. I do believe that I sin, but those sins would be the same whether i was straight or gay.

    There are some people that attest that their faith pulled them “back” to heterosexuality, and I cannot argue that. That is a FACT relative to their life, and i have no right to argue that point.

    But, I can say that if someone always was gay, then there is no straight to go “back to.” There is no unoriginal state-of-being to be delivered from, relative to their sexuality if they always were gay. This applies to me.

    I do despise the exploitation of recent converts in front of otherwise already “saved” church goers.. its a tool to humiliate, and I understand that, but i think it also is demeaning. And that is definitely sad.

  53. TANK says

    NWJEFF, my honesty is insulting. I realize this because…of other people in my life that have told me that some of the things I say and do are offensive to a lot of people. I don’t realize this on my own some of the time, and am indebted to them for telling me, because I don’t want to make most people feel badly about themselves (however, bad people need to feel badly for the way the behave…because they’re bad, harm people, and don’t know it). I have a lot of sympathy for so called “ex-gays” or people who have been convinced through false beliefs that they’re somehow inferior by birthright, and that others like them are, too. I feel for them, as they’re delusional. I feel a great deal for schizophrenics, too. A great deal. I want to make it alright, but I know I can’t. But when you confuse your own personal journey for people who are living their lives without those beliefs, and make generalizations the intent of which is to deprive people of rights and human dignity for no reason other than baseless dogma, I lose my ability to separate them from the message, and attack the message and person providing it. I know you are no more capable of distinguishing your religious beliefs from reality as…, so in that regard, I apologize. But the message is bad, and provides succor to those who wish that people like me (gays) didn’t exist, and I will always destroy that toxicity.

  54. Jeff Dunivant says

    Good luck trying to get rid of his overt voice and mannerisms, as with all religions, it is just a phase; then it is back to men again. People need something to latch onto, it gives them a sense of belonging. On the heels of prop 8, which we are still waiting on; it gives more fuel to the fire that these religious nut jobs want, we can’t let them win.

  55. GOD says

    Tank, please have faith when I say NO ONE, not there on earth or here in Heaven, CARES WHAT YOU THINK. I asked around and the opinions of you up here among the saved really are not very good and some opinions cannot even be repeated. But dude what I can tell you is that “Tank” is used up here like “Santorum” is used on earth…not good.

    Listen I know your charming personality, coupled with that sky high opinion you have of yourself, makes many real life conversation difficult if not altogether impossible. Well that and your ample size but……I can see where you would be inclined to sit in front of (around?) your computer day in and day out.

    But, imagine, for a moment, if you focused all your “profound” thoughts on something more worthwhile than gay blog threads. I mean the Saints and Angels wonder why it so important to try to convince others that you are always right and that they are simply intellectually lower than you? Why does that seem to be your #1 goal? “Tank is right and smart and all others are wrong and dumb” is not a great mantra to live by. You dig me my Son?

    Tank maybe…just maybe…if you did more work for the greater good you won’t up being not such a TOTAL waste of skin with a one way ticket downstairs. Yeah I know, I know, that is partly my fault but hey even God is capable of making dreadful mistakes once in awhile.

    Now go forth my child and prosper but please do all my other children a favor by just shutting the F*CK UP. Christ what a sh*t spraying douche nozzles some images of me are – my bad.

    I love you all and some of you I will welcome in the future.

  56. THE TRUTH says

    JESUS IS REAL !!!! When you experience the HOLY SPIRIT your body cannot behold HIM for HE is holy and there is no one like HIM. I dare all of you to ask HIM to reveal HIMSELF to you HE WILL because HE came and died for you to be saved HE IS MORE REAL than you know AND HE IS RETURNING SO REPENT AND TURN TO HIM HE IS THE ONLY WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE!!!

  57. orviron says


  58. Nick says

    I find it interesting that this video has been discontinued since 4/12/2012. Hmmm…I wonder why!? lol…stop ostracizing people who genuinely want help! You are worse than the “religious right” in that you have no consideration for opposite points of view. And, yes, I used to affirm a gay membership.

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