Report: Gay Youths Hanged in Iran

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If anyone can confirm the content of the Farsi source article or find a news story in English regarding these young men, please email me.

Gay Iranian Teenagers Hanged [seyd]

UPDATE: Here’s one article, but it doesn’t mention the charges. (thanks Peter)

Okay, here’s another one that mentions the two were convicted of sexual assault on a 13-year-old boy. That sheds some ugly light on the story.

So it’s apparent that the two (one a minor himself) had committed a crime other than simply being homosexual themselves. But death? For minors? It leaves me with more questions. In a similar but heterosexual situation, would the youths have been hanged?

It’s still clearly excessive punishment and an egregious abuse of human rights.

7/21 UPDATE: This new report suggests that “The allegation of sexual assault may either be a trumped up charge to undermine public sympathy for the youths, a frequent tactic by the Islamist regime in Iran. Or, Outrage! Suggests, it may be that the 13 year old was a willing participant but that Iranian law (like UK law) deems that no person of that age is capable of sexual consent and that therefore any sexual contact is automatically deemed in law to be a sex assault.” It also says that there are three other young gay Iranians being hunted by the police.

Comments

  1. Brian says

    Dear God… savages… whether it’s fundamentalist muslims in the middle east or fundamentalist christians in Montana… they’re all savages. How truly heartbreaking.

  2. says

    Wow. It’s scary to read about that. I also find it fascinating looking through this blog how we balance between these awful and brutal stories and then people like David Beckham. Talk about extremes…

  3. says

    To compare the freest (albeit imperfect) society in the world to the islamo-fascist regime of Iran is beyond appalling. It borders on psychosis.

    Thank you for posting these images, Andy. We must never forget to value what we have — and to fight for liberty EVERYWHERE in the world, not just here at home.

  4. says

    You might be right on that point, but it has nothing to do with religion.

    In the United States, federal law protects you from being lynched by fundamentalist Christians and I’m sure there are plenty of those who’d like to see you dead for being gay. Go to somewhere in central Christian Africa (e.g. Nigeria), and you will find fairly recent incidents of homosexuals being beaten to death by so called Christians without seeming to incur the wrath of the law.

    In these same Christian countries you’ll find men getting away with violent crimes against women, even when their women get put to death for things as [relatively] minor as adultery or fornication.

    It’s not a muslim problem, it’s a human rights problem; it’s a problem of ingrained conservatism, whether homophobic or male-ego driven, and to distil an issue like that into a simplistic blanket statement about an entire religion just isn’t logical or helpful.
    I lived in a muslim country outside of the middle east for twelve years, and our family knew more than a couple of openly gay local people who thrived there; it’s part of what made my coming out so easy; these other countries who sanction this kind of thing are disgusting, but don’t let yourself fall into believing that it’s a problem of Islam, extremism can and does run riot anywhere.

  5. Jeffie says

    Kevin,
    You express a commonly held belief in this country that we are the freest nation in the word…..i would like to suggest that we are the most powerful nation but not the freest. There are many nations that have more individual freedoms than the good ole USA

  6. kimmer says

    Regardless of the nomenclature of the charges . . . these poor boys were executed for having committed man-on-man sex.
    It’s barbarous, it’s brutal, it’s inhumane.
    It shows me that my day-to-day petty concerns are exactly what they are — petty, trivial, and privileged.
    my God . . .

  7. jennie says

    this comment has to do with both these posts
    the bible is the text that mandates the death penalty for homosexuality; the koran doesn’t. but somehow everyone has them mixed up on the issue. (the koran has some vague thing saying ‘lewd acts between men should be punished’ but it doesn’t say what the acts are and doesn’t require any specific punishment.)

    and no, torture doesn’t “curb” insurgencies, and lynchings are untenable and disgusting. this is not an east/west battle of cultures. nor is it a religious stand-off.

  8. RedMonkey says

    While these images are shocking, sadly they are commonplace in so many countries around the world. Beheadings are common. So are chopping off hands. Etc. Etc. Quite frankly, the world is full of scenes such as this… and certainly for more “crimes” than being just gay. And I think it’s too easy and naive to just say that this is because of conservative (i.e. extreme) religious behavior or worse, that this is how Iran is… or the “middle east” is…

    It’s not that black and white.
    And we are not any better in this country, we just hide between the lines.

    I guess my simple point is: While it’s good to break out of comfortable insulation and get angry… make sure you are getting angry at the right people for the right reasons. Don’t lump Iranians as the enemy. Dump lump Islam into this. This really boils down to culture and exposure. What is different is dangerous. That’s not about religion, but a the human creature’s selfish fear of losing order and control.

    Just ask any one in this country who wants you converted, exported or dead: You are breaking down the family. You are ruining this country. You give me a fear that we aren’t in control of things…

    ====

    On a completely different note… I suspect many would be surprised to visit a place like Saudi Arabia or an Islamic country that forbids homosexuality. In Saudi Arabia, so many boys hold hands or have their arms around each other. Men rub noses and kiss. From my western eyes it all seemed so very queer…

    Just a random observation.

  9. says

    Jeffie, would you care to name a country that has more individual freedom than the U.S.?

    Please don’t name a country where you are forced to use socialized medicine or a country where members of the legislature are forbidden to discuss the monarchy or a country where a judge can order the press to not report on an ongoing trial involving the prime minister….I can go on and on.

  10. JOSÉ LUIS says

    el horror esta en todos lados…en México, en el estado de Chiapas han asesinado alrededor de 100 hombres gays en los últimos años….y¨México no es un país musulman.

  11. says

    My Iranian friend has translated his original source in farsi:

    Two teenage boys who were originally from south of Iran were hanged in public in Mashad because of their forceful homosexual acts. According to the reports from ICNA (Iranian student journalists), they were convicted, imprisoned and were also given lashes for their homosexual acts, drinking, disturbing the peace and theft. The boys showed alot of remose for their action minutes before their death: “14 months ago we were arrested. We are very sorry for what we did. Our advice to the other youth is to think about their family and put their focus into school and their life”. One of them added in the court: “We did not know that such acts will result in death penalty”. They also added: “We grew up in a tough conditions where such crimes were prevelent, which is why we commited such crimes”. The boy’s lawyer said, “There were objections towards this information, but eventually the death penalty was given. My clients confessed to their crime in the court, but currently 3 of the accused in this case are at large”.

    From this article and the reason why emphasized ‘forceful’ one cannot infer there were other reasons behind their punishment. However, as other bloggers such as Andy from Towelroad and Madge fromYeast Radio picked up the story two other English sources came up: Two child rapists publicly hanged In Iran and Iran Majlis deputies endorse execution of minor. I am not from Iran so I don’t know how things work out there, but my friend who by the way is a refugee from Iran now living in the States says:

    “Sometimes Iranian media has a way of changing the story to avoid sanctions from UN.
    So I still trust the first article I sent you. I have seen similar stories and documentary about this in Iran, so it’s nothing new to me. ”

  12. Leo says

    That’s too funny. The U.S. has the most individual freedom – as long as you’re white and straight. What other western country still uses the death penalty and conitnues to kill some innocent people. Canada may have socialized medicine but at least our gay population have more rights.

  13. says

    Mitch:
    Right on.

    Jeffie:
    For my work I spend 50%+ of my time outside of the US and I can tell you – there ain’t a freer place on Earth than this country whether you like it or not. I’m not being ra-ra American here, I’m just telling you the facts of what I have seen. You need to travel – you need to talk to people in these countries (including the “West” – but the vast majority of the world lives outside the “western developed democracies” and most of them live in abject oppression, or are simply viewed by society as worthless and undeserving of liberty – social, moral, economic, intellectual sexual or otherwise. That’s the reality of most of the world folks. I see it with my two eyes week after week after week – and have for many years now.

    So Jeffie – count the ways.

  14. michael says

    Mitch you don’t seem to understand a lot of things, such as how socialized medicine works. Medicine in countries with such systems provide medicine for everyone, but you are free to still pay privately for a dr. and other medical services or even pay insurance premiums for your “choice.” The only thing that is different is that everyone has access to medical care but you can still buy add ons yourself just as we do hear. But unfortunately here, lots of people go without medicine because the govt. doesn’t provide healthcare for its people. That’s a freedom we don’t have: to be free from worrying about paying for a disasterous health problem we can’t afford to pay for……you need to define the word “freedom” before you start saying we are the “freest country in the world.” m.

  15. says

    Michael you’re wrong about that. You need to study up on Canadian socialized medicine before you try and tell my how it works. There are many countries with socialized medicine that forbid private practice, Canada is one of them, which is why many Canadians cross the border into the states constantly to escape 2 year waiting lists for hip replacements. Even if they don’t your are FORCED to pay for medical coverage in the form of taxes, whether you want it or not. That’s not freedom in my book. Neither is waiting 2 years in agony for a hip replacement so that Joe Crackhead can get free syringes.

    Care to explain anything else I don’t understand?

  16. Cassius says

    Gee, the “freedom” from worrying about paying for health care. Hummm…

    I have to say that being forced to pay higher taxes to pay for the health care of others I frankly don’t give a damn about is not my definition of freedom, no.

    Back to the gay hanging thing, OK, it looks like it was the rape of a 13 year old boy, and not consentual gay sex. But lets keep some facts in mind…Islamic law, which is based on the Koran and other sayings of Mohammed calls for the death penalty for gay sex. And there are six Islamic countries today which officially impose this penalty: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, Yemen and the United Arab Emirates. And a few unofficially, like certain Islamic areas of Nigeria which are now taking up stoning gays to death.

    Number of Judeo-Christian countries which today publicly execute gays based on the Book of Leviticus: ZERO.

    Number of gays executed for homosexuality in Iran since the Islamic Revolution: 4000.

    Oh, and another fun fact for you guys to chew on here: Back in 2001 there were actually EIGHT Islamic countries which officially had the gay death penalty… yep two more than today. So which two were they??? Ready for this….(drum roll)…

    Afganistan and Iraq.

    Yes, those two countries had their tradition of being able to hang homos high, let them dangle slowly in the wind… STRIPPED from them recently by the iron boot of the US military! How culturally insensative of us to do this! How eeevil of Bush and his War on Terror! SOB!

  17. says

    “There are many countries with socialized medicine that forbid private practice, “Canada is one of them, which is why many Canadians cross the border into the states”

    The kindest thing I can say, is that’s not quite correct. Canada already has a two-tier system, but as it exists currently the government generally won’t fund private care with public monies. That said, there is nothing to stop private clinics from setting up shop to deliver a variety of services. What doesn’t as yet occur in Canada is the use of public dollars to fund patient care through the private sector.

    A recent Supreme court decision in Quebec has also ruled that a patients individual rights to receive care entail a right to private care if the government is incapable of supplying care within a reasonable length of time.

    As to the broader argument about Canadian health care, I will say this.

    Yours is a typical condemnation which doesn’t take into account the complexities, and advantages of government medicine, and blithely ignores the disadvantages of private US style health care.

    That said, the Canadian system is deeply flawed as it exists currently. It desperately needs more funding and more efficient management (not just private sector reforms, but ‘better care’ efficient management).

    And your “so that Joe Crackhead can get free syringes” is just ridiculous. My home town of Vancouver has followed the innovative example of cities like Berlin and the Netherlands in setting up free drug centres in sanitized conditions.

    The understanding behind this method of tackling drug problems is that in many cases, drug abuse is a health problem, not necessarily a criminal problem. Its an addiction and like any other other addiction, addicts deserve treatment, not jail.

    Personally I find the empirical data on the Berlin example and the Vancouver example thus far to be far more encouraging than more traditional “crackdown/war on drugs” policies.

    “Care to explain anything else I don’t understand”

    Socrates would say, you are an ignorant dumbass for saying the above, and I would agree. Only those who profess complete knowledge are trully ignorant.

  18. Paul Denton says

    Cassius,

    If you think the world is that simple. Think again. Think long and hard. This is not a matter of Islam vs. Christianity. Plenty of quote Christian countries have hung people for equally insubstantial crimes such as being Black or being a “witch.”

    And before you go off singing the praises of the war in Iraq–go there. And see what suffering that iron boot of yours is capable of. Evil comes in many forms. Be wary of casting stones. We, as Americans, need not look anywhere but at ourselves to see hatred, racism, fundamentalism, poverty, irrationality and ignorance.

    Quoting facts or spewing numbers doesn’t change the fact that we are one world–and within that world homosexuality is a minority. As a result we are faced with a lot of injustice.

    We should all take a moment and think about the boys who have been killed. Think about their pain and suffering. Think about their fear. And we should take all of this in and not respond with our own fears or anger or need to point a finger.

    We should see this injustice and vow that as a group we shall never knowingly be unjust–whether that is through racism, intolerance, xenophobia or plain ignorance. We should vow to be kinder, more understanding and look at the world outside America not as “other” but as a part of us.

    We have been endowed with the ability to look past our circumstances, to understand prejudice and to know what it is like to be different. We should never, ever forget that feeling.

  19. Cassius says

    Paul, um, no, I shall not vow to be kinder and more understanding to parts of the world which executes people for being gay. And I will continue to point the finger at the barbarians who engage in these sort of atrocities. Yes, it really is that simple.

  20. Nik says

    You see? all this is related to the blasts in London and 9/11. so long as we don’t seed democracy in the Middle East, we would keep hearing the worst excesses from people there. its not the same as a bunch of assholes kiiling gays in Montana. the law criminalizes homosexuality and allows capital punishment in Iran.

  21. nwa says

    andy
    i’m an iranian and i am very shocked and sorry for what has happened.there are many homosexuals in iran and the number is growing and the government knows that.i heard from some sources the reason for this shameful act was raping a minor boy and they had some more charges,also any charges wouldnt justify the hanging.Mahshad is very religious and fundamentalist city in iran.it hosts the holiest islamic shrines after mecca and qom and maybe this adds to story.

  22. says

    You’ll freak out when I say this, but there actually IS a country that is more “free” than the U.S.: South Africa. They have the best constition in the world when it comes to the protection of minorities, hundreds of thousands of homeless and unemployed have thrived in a mere ten years under their current system, and much, much more.

    But what is freedom worth, anyway, when you’re free to kill your infant child in Florida for “being gay” or one can get community service hours for grossly violent hate crimes in Texas? Perhaps freedom as a buzzword really isn’t worth discussing. In light of the case we’re discussing here, perhaps individual potential would be more precise. And perhaps it’s not just about government and grinding your own political axes, it’s about culture. And if you think America’s culture is amongst the world’s most “free”, then I don’t know what to tell you.

  23. says

    The freest country in the world is the United States. No set of laws protects people’s individual liberties like ours. People like to praise Scandanavian countries for their freedom, but most of them have tax rates that would shock Americans.

    As for these hangings, it’s a barbaric form of killing for a barbaric nation. I’m not surprised – just totally disgusted. Makes me glad we invaded Iraq, because this same stuff was going on there.

  24. says

    The various reports of exactly what the crime was that led to the barbaric execution of the two teens in Iran are a question of interpretation. Iran does not have a “free press”. The article we used was the reasoned interpretation of the UK gay human rights activist Peter Tatchell who had the Farsi text translated.

    One expects that much of what has been reported is “spin”. As the “crime” was committed about 14 or more months ago and the oldest boy was 18 at the time of his execution, he was 16 or 17 at the time of the act of which he was found guilty of.

    The IranFocus.com article in English says brings in the 13 years-old aspect, while the Students’ News Service does not mention this (in Farsi). IranFocus is based in Paris, while ISNA (The students) is in Iran.

    Remember that we are talking here about a country where a girl can be executed at the age of NINE – and for boys, 15 (so much for equality).

    My personal view is that the introduction of the 13 years-old could well be a ‘red herring’ in an attempt to “soften” any sanctions on Iran from other countries.

    By all account, the Iranian authorities are furious that the ages have got out to the world – and even more furious that the graphic photographs (which are NOT ‘amateur’) are all over the internet.

    The two executed boys in Iran were also said to have each been severely beaten with 228 lashes.

    For the record, the following countries punish homosexuality by death. Note that in some countries there are two “laws” (Nigeria and United Arab Emirates, for instance). But where the death penalty is enforced, it is in Sharia Courts.

    Afghanistan: Sharia Courts only – Death by throwing off high building.

    Iran: Sharia Law. Death for same-sex sexual contact; other intimate same-sex contact 100 lashes with possible death for repeat offenders.

    Mauritania: Sharia Law – death (though there is some doubt)

    Nigeria: Sharia Law (northern part of country only). Death by stoning.

    Pakistan: Sharia Law – 100 lashes or death by stoning.

    The Sudan: Sharia Law – 100 lashes for single men, death for married men.

    United Arab Emirates: Penal Code – up to 14 years imprisonment. Sharia Law – death penalty.

    Yemen: Sharia Law

  25. Alex says

    I certainly feel much freer living in the United Kingdom than I do in the United States. I miss my home, but over here you suddenly realise that as an individual you can get away with a lot more before people start to assume the worst about you. Why is it so many of open minded Americans turn to the BBC when something big happens in our own country? Hmm, oh yes, we don’t have an impartial media that can report as it likes in the face of government opposition.

    Europeans in general don’t seem to generate the same volume of hot air as we do either, and some of them have something good going on, so I don’t blame them for keeping quiet. Don’t even get me started on free speech in America – it’s a joke now because of libel – or being excessively politically correct, for that matter. And isn’t it nice to receive good quality healthcare without worrying whether you’re insured, as is the case back home? Oh, and I pay less tax here on my income than I did in NYC, go figure.

    Arguing that any country is the most free is just too adolescent; what trite and silly nonsense.

  26. rob adams says

    Many good comments — and some lousy ones.

    Some of you need to get a major clue about MidEast (and global) culture. Just because men hold hands in MidEast culture has *nothing* to do with sex; It’s about friendship.

    Some cultures (thank G-d) are not so obsessed about sex.

    rob@egoz.org

  27. madlord says

    I recommend publicly bury suicide bombers (or rather their remains) wrapped in pigskin – that supposedly will make their death ignoble and dishonourable and thus pointless. hell, they hang gays publicly, so why can’t we do something to terrorists? with approval of the rest of Muslim community, of course (do not think they will mind)

  28. Justin says

    These are the most dispiriting photographs I have ever seen, the kind that jolt you from the denial that human nature is anything other than savage. Woe be unto those helpless Iranian gays. They truly are damned.

  29. says

    Andy, I want to thank you for giving this story the best coverage I can find. It’s sad that this is getting so little coverage – I find it much more disturbing than all of the Iraqi abductions and executions, and I can’t help blaming all the silence on institutionalized homophobia.

  30. Cassius says

    I blame the silence on political correctness. Shining the spotlight on the appalling Islamic views towards homosexuality makes the War on Terror look better, have a very positive silver lining… and the liberal media powers-that-be can’t have that.

    So, this has been largely swept under the rug. Except of course in a few places like this blog, and double the kudos extended to Andy here.

  31. Paul Denton says

    “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” -Samuel Johnson. There is no denying the evil or horror in those hangings. But get out from under your cloak dude. Stand like a man–not behind country or religion or rightness but behind universal human principals. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Killing people in the name of doing right is the biggest load of bullocks throughout time.

    And if you’re a Christian then use “love” to combat evil and injustice not anger and fearmongering. I’m not against you Cassius–I just think that we have to see the bigger picture. And that is that fundementalism is wrong. We should not as a world tollerate it. But the majority of the people of the Middle East believe that more than we ever can–because they have to deal with it on a daily basis. We should be against simple minded thugs who rule and abuse these people, but not against the people themselves. People, the world over, for the most part are the same. And we, as Free Americans, should recognize and promote that. Our contempt should be directed at the fundementalist Isalmics not at Islam. That’s all.

  32. Cassius says

    Well we are in agreement then! You say we need to direct contempt against fundamentalist Islamics…and I completely agree! THANK YOU!

    Thats why this hanging story needs to be kept on the front burner, and not quietly swept under the rug as so many anti-war journalists are so desperately trying to do.

    And I want to say I also agree with another point made in that gay patriot atricle… as far as terrorism goes… we are targets. I would not at all be surprised if the next suicide bomber in this country targets a gay nightclub or circuit party or gay pride parade. I can EASILY see this occuring. WE all need to be extra vigilant, and keep an eye out for suspicious characters at our events, acting strangely and fitting the terrorist profile.

  33. Paul Denton says

    Isn’t that what straights have done for centuries. “Kept and eye out for suspicious characters at their events, acting strangely and fitting the “homosexual” profile”?

  34. Robert says

    some of you guys are so full of shit it’s almost funny.I’m gay,have served in the army and have never once felt vitimized or disciminated against.If a straight man calls you a faggot you just knock his fucking teeth out and word spreads quickly that you are one faggot who is not to be fucked with.”My country right or wrong”-I prfer the right…but i’ll serve the wrong if it keeps my neighbors from having to submit to backwards,heathen ragheads.

  35. Daniel says

    Cassius — are you, by any chance, on the White House payroll? Outside of that blessed office, I haven’t heard the “liberal media” plowed with such delight — or seen such bleak what-if scenarios (complete with a cryptic warning about quote-unquote VIGILANCE) hashed out so beautifully. Cheers. But if you’re not getting paid, you should be.

  36. Tony says

    Which country is most free? Socialized medicine – good or bad? Oh how those poor kids in Iran would have loved the luxury of arguing these points. Instead they are dead. Get the picture?

  37. Damon says

    The conservative crowd on this site has a habit of only replying to the threads which has a political bent and the possibility of igniting a Liberal VS Conservative debate.

    Where the fuck has the surname “Troll” gone?

    First of all let us liberals take time out to mourn for the deaths of all people executed unjustly including homosexuals throughout the world who must endure such great hardships because reactionary and conservative forces continue to cruise the earth devouring all in it’s path. (Biblical really)

    And another cheap shot (how could I resist?) against conservativism, let us not forget that it was Liberalism that freed this nation’s slaves, that gathered dissenters (Thinking Americans) in the streets to oppose western imperialism. It was Liberalism that gave women the right to vote thus putting women un par with men and homosexuals the right to not be prosecuted for being who they are. It was Liberalism that marched on Washington in 1963. It was Liberalism who protested a serious intrusion of individual rights when the draft was instituted during the Vietnam War. It was Liberalism that sought to end child labor in America and abroad.

    Liberalism isn’t Tom Delay blocking a bill protecting people in those less fortunate from horrible conditions under U.S companies after accepting millions of dollars from those same companies who employ these workers. (BTW it isn’t about just getting stuck by needles, it’s also about rapes, abortions, abuse, threats)

    Liberalism isn’t about going after Clinton for a simple blowjob.

    Liberalism isn’t about raising the bible in defense of slavery citing specific verses that allow slavery but the horrible liberals/abolitionists (practically synonmous I mean Liberal does mean free) wouldn’t have it. Slavery had to be struck down then and there!

    I think some of you are getting my point. As for Mitch-> (sometimes I wonder if your the one and only Capt. Bareback -Oops, I mean Andrew Sullivan- HA! Just kidding buddy ol pal, I’m kind of a fan of Ayn Rand myself! Truce?)

    and Co

    (Cassius and that racist asshole Robert and some other assholes who are worth remaining in my blindspot if I missed them)

    They may have missed the point and most likely they always will miss the point. They don’t understand and probably will never understand that it was LIBERALISM that bought freedom to this country. The United States didn’t start out free.

    Alright, so I’m not being entirely fair. When a proposal came up to inscribe in law where homosexuals must be executed when found, Jefferson rebuked them saying that the homosexuals must be castrated instead. It was a step toward freedom I must admit. 😛

    It was Liberalism pure and simple. When researching about many of these Americans that brought such great reforms to our country, you won’t see so many differences between them and a bunch of Godless Reds.

    And despite so many imperfections of modern day liberalism, it’s still liberalism that gathers to protest an unjust war where our administration won’t even touch Pakistan, the country we have an alliance with. Pakistan, a country violating numerous human rights violations. Pakistan, a country the United States needs on it’s side to keep global dominance. Pakistan, the country where Bin Laden probably is in.

    They keep telling us to remember 9/11. But don’t say shit about Bin Laden. Forgot about him? Unfortunately, I do most of the time too.

  38. Daniel says

    Damon — well said. Unfortunately, a small scroll-up might suggest that your wisdom is falling upon deaf ears. True to form, when unable to win an argument, I believe the right-winger’s best plan of success is quite simple: ignore, ignore, ignore… Or make up phony statistics. I suppose a simple flip of the coin works in such situations.

  39. Cassius says

    I’d be happy not to ignore such “wisdom” except for the fact that it has nothing to do with the subject at hand: The hanging of gays by islamo-fascists.

    Instead it seems to be an irrelevant rant about such totally non-pertinent subjects like slavery (?), the march on Washington (??) and child labor laws (??????????).

    Really, if I had any traction to lurch the discussion back on point I would, but Damon’s post is hopeless. It’s obviously nothing more than a desperate attempt to change the subject, to ANYTHING other than the barbaric atrocities in Iran.

    I guess the notion that evil in the world can possibly be committed by non-Americans (gasp!) is so shocking to the liberal world-view that they are unable to intelligently discuss the subject.

  40. Daniel says

    Cassius .. let’s see if we can break this down.

    1) The U.S. attacked Iraq under the justification that it possessed nukes and intended to attack. Unfortunately, these assertions have been proven false. Only after the fact are we suddenly “spreading democracy” across the globe. That, my friend, is what’s called DIRTY. Especially when we are still allied, economically and politically, with with some of the world’s worst human-rights abusers. Ever hear of a little homo head-chopping place called Saudi Arabia? What say we invade them?

    2) Before one jumps up and down in celebration of the War on Terror (R), one must look at the reality of the situation. You are correct that in Iraq, sexually active gay teenagers may not worry about being hanged in accordance with Sharia Law. Unfortunately, they have a much more serious threat at hand: indiscriminate death, by bomb or gun– from U.S. liberators or Iraqi insurgents. I think it may be jumping the gun to proclaim that there is a “silver lining” there.

    3) You state this story is being ignored by biased, “desperate” anti-war liberal-media journalists. That’s funny – not hilarious – but funny. The media need not be “liberal” to ignore atrocities– either in “islamo-fascist” (good word usage) states or our own– the plain ol’ Regular Media can do that just fine.

    4) The argument that Islam is worse than Christianity where the subject of homosexuality is concerned is an odd one. Both faiths regard it with disgust — and both contradictorily proclaim love for the fellow man and punishment/death for the one who does not kowtow or obey the text. It’s these states of mind that create the very DEFINITION of atrocity.

    IGNORANCE is what must be wiped out. The spread of fear — as in your “we must remain vigilant at our gay events lest an Islamo-Monster attack” warning — will not save us.

    In closing, I echo what others have said.. atrocities come in many forms. I am in solidarity with my gay brothers and sisters everywhere who must face injustice and ignorance. But in this world, these acts are only the tip of the iceberg.

  41. Damon says

    Cassius

    Unfortunately Daniel has proved himself correct; you simply ignored my entire post.

    I’m going to explain my post to you despite your deaf ears and blind eyes. The subliminal (even though it rings loud and clear) message of my post was that it was only American liberalism that has given us our current freedom; the freedoms you so love to say are devoid in these Islamic fascist countries. (Why would Islamic fascist countries need to put into works irrelavent notions like civil rights or child labor laws?)

    Now I was hoping that you’d be intelligent enough to get this message but you slipped my expectations! Not only does Daniel show me up but so do you! How wise and witty you are!

  42. Cassius says

    OK, now this is much better, thanks to Daniel we are now back on topic.

    1) Yes of course I know Saudi Arabia is one of the gay-killing Muslim fundamentalist states, I listed above as one of the Bad Guys in fact.

    We could invade them I suppose. But you know… I have a simpler, cleaner, better idea. Let defeat the Saudi state economically. STOP importing oil from them… by becoming an energy self-sufficient county. We do this EASILY by 1) unlimited oil drilling in ALL areas of Alaska; 2) sale of unfettered offshore drilling rights all along the ENTIRE US coastline to oil and gas companies; and 3) complete deregulation of the nuclear power industry, and encouragement of the immediate construction of a whole new wave of nuclear power plants (100+) across the entire country within the next 5 years.

    Support these very reasonable proposals, and you’ll have taken a very important moral stand against these Islamic oil countries that murder boys for simply being gay.

    2) Those insurgents are fighting for the right to reinstall Sharia law, to the right to have gays hung, flogged, thrown of buildings, stoned to death, etc. I think fighting against Ultimate Gay Bashers On The Planet Earth is worth doing, even if it means things get a bit messy, don’t you?

    3) Its been my observation that when the media blatantly overlooks important stories, there is usually an ideological motivation behind that overlooking. But maybe your right, maybe the media is just doing its typically non-ideological sloppy job here. Who knows? I’ll concede the possibility you may be right here. But ONLY the possibility, mind you.

    4) OK now this is flat out… argh, words fail me.

    OK, lets use poor Zach as an example here. Zach is a gay teen, who lives in the Bible Belt south. And the WORST fate that can LEGALLY happen to him has indeed happened to him. He has been sent to a camp. Against his will. Where he is not allowed to wear Abercombie & Fitch, and other such human rights abuses.

    Now lets say Zach lived in Iran instead. Zach would be hung. Hung by the neck, swinging from a tree branch, toes dangling six inches off the ground, lifeless body swaying in the gentle desert breeze.

    Said hanging coming after the 200+ lashes he recieved from his Muslim persecutors, I might add.

    So… you still think my Muslims fundamentalists are MUCH MUCH worse belief is still… an ODD one?

    If so… I dunno, I can’t think of a more stark comparison to give you. Or what else I could possibly say. Sheesh.

  43. Damon says

    ” believe the right-winger’s best plan of success is quite simple: ignore, ignore, ignore… Or make up phony statistics.”

    -Daniel

    Oh Daniel, you prophet, do you live up to your name!

  44. Damon says

    1. Cassius, you just don’t understand that it isn’t about supporting a terrorist country or becoming a self-sufficient state. (Didn’t the Soviet’s try it with Communism?) It’s about wanting more oil, more money, and more power; That’s what this administration is all about and even though the Senate OK’d the drilling of Alaska in March, we’ll continue to cooperate with Saudi Arabia because that’s where a lot of money is coming in from and the ruling conservative power knows it.

    Invading Saudi Arabia isn’t an option. We’re to fucking busy with Iraq and despite having more soldiers, we have them all over the world to keep our world dominance. So in order to bring order to Iraq, either we’ll have to withdraw soldiers all over the world and send them to Iraq (which isn’t going to happen), withdraw the troops from Iraq (which btw, the plan has already been drafted) or just institute the draft. Yes, yes, we have more soldiers in America waiting to battle, nevertheless their not up to standards and it’s risky sending them when they haven’t been fully trained to handle a situation like Iraq. We haven’t even battled the last two of the Axis of Evil and you think we should go after Saudi Arabia. Cassius, get a grip on reality.

    The military is having a very very hard time trying to recruit new soldiers. Unfortunately being the army brat of a well known sargent attracts a lot of recruiter attention. So what do you want in order to defeat the rest of the “Axis of Evil?” A draft? Go ahead President Cassius; dig us into Vietnam II.

    And deregulating the nuclear power industry? Now your extreme Capitalist ideology has really hit the fan. Even Ayn Rand would slap the fuck out of you.

    Here’s a reasonable proposal, how about you send your ass out to Iraq? Hopefully I’m wrong about you and you are in Iraq right now; you’ll be doing a great (dis) service to the country.

    Did you know in Dante’s Inferno, Cassius is in the lowest circle of hell and who’s judgement is being chewed by Lucifer?

  45. Damon says

    2. Fact: Did you know Islamic fascist explosion in the Middle East is a recent phenonmenon inherited by the U.S. arming the Arabs in the region to fight against the Soviets without trying to fight the Soviets themselves?

    After poverty ravaged the region and the U.S withdrew any help would could of given the Arabs, anarchy went about and in the end, Islamic fascist took rule. Of course the people in the region are very critical of their rulers including the Iraqi’s toward Hussien, but now they want their country back. They see our hypocrisy supporting Islamic fascist countries like Pakistan and Egypt and they know we’re in no position to be talking about how we’re the heralds of freedom.

    Now true, the Sharia law promotes the cutting of your hands for theft but remember, it was Jefferson who supported YOUR castration for loving who you wanted.

  46. Damon says

    4.

    People, maybe Cassius will continue to ignore the facts but you don’t have to.

    Let us give Cassius the benefit of the doubt. Let us Liberals sympathize with him. He’s right when he says the United States (excluding much of the ruling class) is more morally just than the Islamic fascist countries. We have rights many of those citizens can only dream of. We’re in better hands and we know it.

    And it’s all because of Liberalism. This is where the sympathizing ends. It’s liberalism we have to thank for the Civil Rights movement and under that banner, the gay rights movement.

    This is why the conservative homosexual intellectuals of today have no conservative idols (before the late 1980s, or maybe they could evoke Roy Cohn and Edgar Hoover) who supported gay rights let alone many civil rights.

    It was because of Liberals…it was because of Liberals…it was because of Liberals…It’s Liberalism we have to thank.

    So let’s stop trying to compare the U.S. to these Islamic countries. It’s a great way for the conservatives to take advantage. Instead let us reform our argument more based on reality. Whenever they point out that America is better then whichever country because of whatever, point out that it was because of Liberalism. Make sure you point out the main names too for I doubt it’ll be of conservative activist.

  47. Cassius says

    I see.

    So you admit it. You don’t like it when I compare us to Islamic countries. Make you uncomfy. You don’t like it when it is proven that the Bush administration is not the greatest evil in the world. That a country that hangs gay people or stones them, or flogs them, our hurls them out of tall buildings as a matter of law is actually worse.

    Screws up your whole world view, doesn’t it? Yes, I sympathize with YOU. This must be terribly upsetting for you to read, especially since you know what I say here is true.

    So, according to your last paragraph, you’ve found a wonderful coping mechanism. If someone brings up the fact they hang gay people in Iran, you advise people to just change the subject to something irrelevant like, The Virtues of Liberalism:

    “Whenever they point out that America is better then whichever country because of whatever, point out that it was because of Liberalism.”

    OK, I understand now why you are doing this. This all must be very painful to see your prior indoctrination crumble around you, that there IS worse evil than Republicans… yes I DO sympathize with you. The mental shock must be horrific if you are actually advocating radically changing the subject every time it comes up. I feel your pain.

  48. Damon says

    LOL, what are you talking about? That Inferno comment must have really fried you because your last post is the most absurd piece of shit writing I’ve ever seen…from you.

    Your post doesn’t even make sense! It mainly doesn’t make sense because your making these assertions that can’t even be backed up. Why? Because they’re lies and lies because you deliberately misunderstood my post.

    Your a big Paper Tiger Cassius, you and the rest of the conservatives. I wish I could say you were all style and no substance in order to be more wordy and witty but you have neither style OR substance.

    Because I hate people misrepresenting me, I’ll have correct you. I know there are other’s who’d just tell me not to deal with you and hopefully the truth will set us all free but we tried that with the last presidential election and that didn’t work out to well.

    “So, according to your last paragraph, you’ve found a wonderful coping mechanism. If someone brings up the fact they hang gay people in Iran, you advise people to just change the subject to something irrelevant like, The Virtues of Liberalism”

    Oh come on! It isn’t irrelevant and deep down you know it. *It’s relevant in how it’s liberalism and only liberalism that had elevated America to what it is now because it wasn’t exactly that great Cassius. Only American-like Liberalism can save those people in the Islamic fundementalist countries.

    *BTW, sorry everyone if I have simplified the whole problem. I know there’s more explaining but to layout the facade first…

    You keep saying it isn’t relevant Cassius. Apparently all that’s relevant to you is trying to control the methods and rules of debate, trying to keep everything in your arena. It isn’t going to work on me Cassius: Man who’s equals are Brutus and Judas Iscariot.

    Let me explain to the rest of the thinking public. Of course there is an evil greater than the American Republican party. And what’s keeping them at bay from reaching their full potential of barbarianism? America’s legacy of Liberalism. Anti-Imperialism, abolitionism, Civil Rights for women, Blacks, Native Americans, homosexuals and even senior citizens as well as teenagers(giving them the right to vote for they should vote if they can be forced to die for this country) abolishing child labor, among other economic accomplishments.

    Conservativism doesn’t have this kind of record on it’s resume and it’ll never will. Not with the surname “Conservative”.

    What you call changing the subject Cassius is what intelligent people call “Kicking your ass.”

  49. Cassius says

    I can’t help but notice while you were kicking my ass up there, you managed not to mention anything about gays being executed for being gay in Iran and other Muslim countries.

  50. Damon says

    *Sigh

    Your trying to make all kinds of false accusations against me, especially when you keep deliberately missing the main idea.

    Merely calling those countries Islamic fascist is enough. I don’t have anything to prove to you Cassius.

    Yes, homosexuals are executed for being gay in many Muslim countries, hell, I could name a couple of non-Islamic countries that do the same. What all my posts were saying to you is that Liberalism is the cure.

    You keep diverting from the point then accuse me of doing the same. Your hopeless and I repeat, your a joke.

    You have nothing left in your arsenal and try as you might, your no Paper Tiger. Even a Paper Tiger despite easily being thrown into the wind looks scary from afar.

  51. Cassius says

    “Yes, homosexuals are executed for being gay in many Muslim countries, hell, I could name a couple of non-Islamic countries that do the same.”

    Really? Well thats news to me. Name those non-Islamic countries with the death penalty for being gay please.

    “What all my posts were saying to you is that Liberalism is the cure.”

    So your going to impose your Liberalism on the Islamic world? How are you going to do that? Ask them nicely to be more liberal? Or invade them and force your viewpoint on them?

  52. says

    Or Invade them force your viewpoint on them?

    Hmm…sounds like a great plan.
    That’s sure to work. After all, change is best accomplished by forcing people to change. That prevents them from wanting to resist your efforts. Well done Cassius!

    Perhaps less gays would be being hung in Iran due to theocratic justifications if the US hadn’t deposed a secular ruler in 1957 because he wasn’t pro-US enough. Oops…

  53. Cassius says

    Yes Peter you’re absolutely right. All we need to do to stop gays hangings in Iran is to invent a Time Machine and go back to 1957, and correct the mistakes committed before we were born!

    I just love all the practical solutions being suggested here.

  54. Damon says

    At least the man admits the U.S. have made mistakes. That’s step in the right and intelligent direction.

    “Really? Well thats news to me. Name those non-Islamic countries with the death penalty for being gay please.”

    Correction, on both our parts; I can’t list ANY countries where there’s a death penalty for being homosexual but there are death penalty laws for homosexuals engaging on homosexual activity. It’s my mistake to say there were non-Islamic countries (plural)that execute homosexuals as I can only think of Guyana (South America). Also to my knowledge there are only a few Islamic countries that execute homosexuals totaling to 4 or 5.

    “So your going to impose your Liberalism on the Islamic world? How are you going to do that? Ask them nicely to be more liberal? Or invade them and force your viewpoint on them?”

    Um, no, that’s not the idea at all. As Peter pointed out (and I elaborate), the U.S.had a good ole time chasing out secular rulers where Sharia law now stands. Of course I could argue that these Liberalism can evolve naturally (as it have in the U.S and many other western countries although slavery and black civil rights in the U.S is a situation you could argue over) by pointing to these Islamic countries and focusing on the secular culture underneath the ruling class. (Many Iranians absolutely adore American pop culture) But I doubt this would be enough for you. But I wouldn’t blame you, I absolutely hate it when conservatives claim legislative action on Civil rights wasn’t necessary during the movement in the 1960s arguing these rights would come out of evolution naturally.

    The truth of the matter is, it isn’t at all about taking out despots and letting the people rule their own country, it’s about not allowing the U.S overthrow these despots, and replacing them with another one who happens to be in favor of America (example: Pinochet, even though Chile wasn’t even a fascist country up to the overthrow of the secular socialist country.

    The truth of the matter is Cassius, your just bitching and aren’t even making conservative suggestions for godsakes so you really don’t have the high ground.

    But at least you’ve implicitly admitted Liberalism is the best option. 😉

  55. Cassius says

    You are WRONG, oh my, I CANNOT believe you would DARE to spread a “phony statistic.”

    Guyana does NOT have the death penalty for homosexuality…its life imprisonment, which while harsh by the standards of the civilized Christian world is NOT death. See:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gaymap.PNG

    But you know, “the LEFT-winger’s best plan of success is quite simple: ignore, ignore, ignore… Or make up phony statistics.” So I guess I can’t be surprised at this. SIGH.

    Oh and my solution? In case you haven’t noticed while you were listing all you old historical glories of liberalism (most of which are of the 19th century variety, which today would be better labeled Libertarianism, of which I happen to a strong beleiver in myself), I’ve been either saying or strongly implying it all along. Treat fundamentalist Islam with the CONTEMPT it deserves, and don’t fall prey to this multiculturist crap you MODERN liberals like to spew, “oh they are just like us, we must embrace their diversity!” … gag, hack, BARF!

  56. says

    I am only responding because the opportunity cost of doing so is so negligible, not because I have the remotest hope that cassius will respond with anything constructive. But that’s ok. Its quite clear that this is a fun thread for people to puzzle over the internet phenomenon that might be called “butting your head against people with solid mental walls keeping out alternate viewpoints/analyses”.

    As we should all know by now, though, (which is why I describe this as a fun-thread), the WORST thing you can do to people who respond unconstructively, or unsympathetically to a given dialogue/argument, is to continue entertaining them.

    Cassius, you no doubt have good reasons for many of your viewpoints and indeed, most people would probably agree with you far more frequently if you would extend them the same courtesy of admitting incomplete knowledge of a given situation and/or being open to alternate points of view.

    The problem with dogmatic “each side to his/her own” is that it creates a bipolar discussion within which neither argument develops. In fact, I would argue that any argument that devolves into mutually exclusive “sides” with no grey area in between, does neither side/perspective any good.

    I look forward to your response, where you avoid the content of this post entirely and point out that this post has nothing to do with Iran’s record on persecuting gays 😉

    But before you do that, you should atleast be fair and address your last critique (a euphimism in this case) of my last post:

    “All we need to do to stop gays hangings in Iran is to invent a Time Machine and go back to 1957, and correct the mistakes committed before we were born!”

    Basically, you’re assuming that I brought up that point as a source of contempraneous insight into how to remedy human rights persecutions in Iran, which is of course, incorrect.

    I brought up that point to inject a sense of history into this discussion, as you have invoked US power as a means of “solving this problem”. My point with that post was invoking US power, historically, as a leading cause of the present problem.

    In order to assess the present, and what viable solutions exist, one must (reasonably) consider the historical contexts influencing present-day Iran and US foreign policy towards it.

  57. Peter says

    One of the most basic admissions in the historical context of Iran might be the recognition that Iran is not traditionally Islamic, unlike Arabia.

    Iran is not Arab, its Persian, with its own uniquely distinct culture and religious heritage.

    Although taken over by the Islamic Sassanid Empire, it has remained unique and distinct from other Islamic-Arabic states to the present day, although it’s secular status, has, as pointed out earlier, declined with western post-wwII interventions.

    As Damon pointed out, there exists a remarkable generational gap in views towards Islam, theocratic rule and western liberal values between younger and older demographics.

  58. Cassius says

    Gee Peter while I would love to respond to your ideas in detail and “develop” them towards mine (which happen to be 100% correct, of that I’m 100% certain), I am just in such a STATE OF SHOCK that “phony statistics” where used against me that simply cannot function… I need to lie down, take a pill… PHONY STATISTICS! A PHONY claim against a Christian country! And after accusing me of… Oh the humanity!

  59. Peter says

    Perhaps the state of shock you are in also responsible for your startlingly omniscient ability to be 100% correct. If only I were also omniscient… 😉

  60. Damon says

    Sorry if I made the mistake of mistooking life imprisonment for a death sentence…

    Either way you’ve merely focused on a subject that doesn’t derail the main idea that I’m getting across.

    BTW: The idea I’m espousing is not Libertarianism. Evoking Mark Twain, Susan B Anthony, Martin Luther King, Bayard Rustin, etc, is not evoking Libertarianism as Libertarianism is something of a new phenonmenon.

    And there you go again, making up things about me. What the fuck is modern liberal any way? You know I’ve never said that we shouldn’t hold contempt for fundementalist Islam or judge it rightously and maybe the only reason you made such a big deal over my mistake was because your trying to use it to put false claims in my mouth. It isn’t working.

    And thank you Peter for putting him in his place.

  61. says

    Iran’s been a consistent violator of human rights for as long as I can remember. I’m sad for the poor boys, but I’m glad that this story has come out despite the Iranian government’s efforts at censoring it.

  62. says

    Hello everyone,

    We have been having hot discussions on the abuses of human rights in the pro-democracy conservative blogs, which I support.

    In general, people have a hard to see that homosexuals are equally intitled to the protection of their human rights in the Middle East.

    A few of us seem quite aware and concerned by this, often women.
    Most seem to prefer focussing on women’s rights.
    Lots of education remain to be done.

    My heart goes to these youths and their family. Bless them.

    Iraqi Blogger Central

  63. rulf says

    this is so motherfuckin terrible…. i would like to hang personally all these old motherfuckers that killed the poor boys… how can this be possible? I don’t care about muslim or christian religion. this is not religion.

  64. Steve says

    Where is amnesty international in this situation. If Great Britain can deport islamic fundamentalists why can’t we encourage Islamic countries to deport their gay youth rather than slaughter them. I would gladly open my home to anyone in need: gay or straight in a situation like this.

  65. mick says

    Mitch and all other americans that think they have the “freest” society.

    Ha. you wish. America is great, but compared to australia you guys are like living in our 60’s. Here you can say what ever you want on tv. Show what ever you want. Protest how ever you want. Believe what ever you want. And say it. Your society is so censored its rediculous. Most likely because religion and political denominations have such a big influence in your life. Here I doubt half the population even knows what religion our prime minister is.

  66. FROM POLAND says

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  67. Burn gays says

    pofteers must be hang gay must be hang.
    However God created woman for a man and man
    for a woman. Adam and eva and not adam and steve. May be the american are pofteers and not moslem. When american terrorist hang some one in the USA no one care

  68. toughtaco says

    I particularly love the photo where the teen has the tear drippind down his nose. Trust me someday such righteosness will come to North America. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  69. patrick nyc says

    Andy,

    Once again you show your site is not just about cute men or shots of Jake. Thanks for the info, not that there is much any of us can do for these poor souls.

    As for all you guys debating who is freer or whatever, take a long look at that photo. None of the verbal dribble matters.

  70. Richard Noble says

    I need to have the names of all the men in the above pictures if anyone can help. It is my plan to bring these terrorists to international justice. Please contact Richard Noble director of GIA (Gay Intelligence Agency). I am seeking a murder trial in Prague and will be seeking life in prison (1st degree murder) with no possibility of parole. My address is PO Box 46742 West Hollywood, CA 90046 LASecretService@aim.com 323-301-8522 Thank You With Love Richard Noble

  71. garypowell says

    As an English man I have this message to my north American friends.

    Please do not pay any attention to the BBC it is only a reflection of what the BBC believes and I take no responsibility for myself or the British people for it. We are forced under direct threat of inprisonment to pay for this socialist propergander. 25,000 or more of the poorest people get convicted every year for TV tax evasion.

    Dont just love America kiss the grownd before you go to bed and again the next morning. For to many of you do not have any idear how lucky you are.

  72. Caleb says

    The same stuff is happening all over the middle east, Iraq included, right now. It’s called “sexual cleansing”. Funny how we never hear about it in our news…

  73. chris says

    my name is christoph im originally form latvia in there the pride celibrations were cancled because of public safety issues i.e. the police could not promise to protect us from attack I recently moved to england here i foud an amazing libberal attitude to sexuality and amazing freedom of speech however this seems to be waithering at the moment there is a huge debate about muslim women being allowed to wear veils in public. it started form a muslim teaching assistant being fired for refusing to remove hers during lessons she has caused much pollitical unrest my argument is how she can uphold the argument that her rights are being infringed when men and women are being murderd for their sexuality.

  74. Noel says

    Homophobia in the west is still acceptable to most people. Its ok to be gay but just dont show it i.e. in the UK a part form a few large cities in certain streets you would still receive verbal and phyisical abuse.

    On human rights issues the USA is one of the worst offendors in the World e.g. its impriosnment of ‘alleged’ terrorits. It has kiled more minors than even Iran has. I can see no difference between hanging and other forms of death sentences, lethal injection etc.

  75. Ramon says

    Here is a proof that indeed, as Ahmadinejad said in a university in the US, “there are no homosexuals in Iran” ¡¡¡Menudo Cinico Bastardo!!! Sorry Noel, which pedophile are you talking about, Muhammad?

  76. Elle says says

    I’m a Christian currently residing in Yemen and I know of at least 3 gay guys who not openly flaunt it but also act as pimps to some of the exotic “dancers” at the numerous belly dancing clubs. These gays might be treated differently as it’s a bit of a foreign concept here, but they haven’t been stoned to death.

    I doubt if these youths were hung because they were gay, they must have committed another crime. It amazes me how the media can sensationalise every event that involves Muslims just to demonise them.

    Americans are not as free as they think when they are so susceptible to anything that is fed to them. Think don’t accept.

  77. Richard Wicks says

    So what should the United States do?

    Bomb Iran, destroy their infrastructure, kill a million people like they did in Iraq, and al lthe while claim to be doing it for freedom?

    Although I wouldn’t doubt that all these stories that we are hearing about today are true, I’m also very well aware that there were never any reports of events like these before 2000. I’m too well acquainted with Operation Ajax to believe the US media doesn’t have an agenda.

    All you Liberals, beware that the cure may very well be worse than the disease. The cure being promoted is war.

  78. Terri says

    This is for Alistars comment:
    It appears that there are many who like to hide behind the Christian faith and do evil and hateful things, but be assured they are not Christians. This country and many people like you who enjoy speaking negitively in reagard to God or those who genuinely choose to follow the scriptures detailed in the Holy Bible should really do more research befor you make yourself look foolish. This is sterotyping christians. How would it sound if I were to say that all Islams are evil and are going to hell because of the wrongful acts of a few alQuida. This is ridiculous. If people would simply read the bible, then you would see what true christians are like. We are never to kill,hurt,wound, bash, etc. others, but in fact Jesus instructs us to deal with a sinful world with love. Read it sometime, you would be amazed.

  79. th says

    HEY guys. Sorry i just found your blog and couldn’t believe it somehow turned back to ‘how wonderful the US is’. I am an australian, and have lived in australia, the us, germany, hong kong and kenya respectively over the last few years for work. The us ranks pretty low in my books. Never have i visited a country that is so inwardly focused and self confident. I’m not religious, and definitely don’t want to provoke a religious debate, but in terms of freedom, i am still often bewildred how americans can consider their country so ‘free’. To begin with, i actually felt sick the first time i watched fox news, a supposed independent media source. I felt even sicker when i found out that it is the most popular choice for news in the south. These people are being deluded and misled. It’s truly a case of ‘ignorance is bliss’ i guess. My main issue with the us however is external. There is just no regard for international opinion. If the whole world doesn’t agree, instead of reviewing why, your government, and the citizens that blindly follow, somehow convince themselves that the whole world is against them, and wrong. I’ll tell you the biggest difference i noticed however. The people of the united states ask questions after the fact and not before. This shouldn’t happen in a truly free country. Anyway. In my opinion the most free countries i have experienced are australia and germany. Probably germany more in terms of homosexuality. The uk is also good on that front. Anyway, on the two youths in iran, or any country enforcing the death penalty for homosexuality. I’m gay, and appreciate my rights as an australian. I sympathise completely with anyone being persecuted for being gay. However this is not the only ‘crime’ in countries that enforce laws derived directly from religion that i find disgusting. Personally i’ve always found stoning of women who were raped or had consentual sex outside of marriage to be the most deplorable crime any court, government, mob or group can bestow upon another. Especially when the perpetrating male often goes unpunished or faces far lighter penalties. The solution is not war, or possibly even sanctions. The key to securing a safer future for all is education. Almost all of the people involved in these situations are uneducated, or poorly educated, and to a large extent it is the lesser educated individuals in developed countries who carry out hate crimes against any minority. A well educated society has the means to demand beneficial changes for all, and if wealthy countries like the us would spend their money funding development schemes in developing countries, instead of trillions on wars, imagine what our world could become. Just imagine for a minute if every dollar spent on the iraq was had been funnelled into africa and asia 8 years ago. Africa could have quite possibly been a very different place by now. Anyway, i know i’m wandering, but it’s 4am here in hong kong, so sorry about that (and any bad grammar).

  80. Greg Randles says

    Brian – Never compare Muslim barbarians with Christians. When was the last time gays were beaten to death, hanged or beheaded by Christians? When have we ever have to contend with Baptist suicide bombers or Lutheran insurgents?

    505 0f all AIDS patients in the world are cared for by Christians. Do you think that Muslims will feel the same compassion?

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