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1. We need one national group to coordinate our actions after all these marches. We are heavily splintered, while our adversaries are heavily coordinated, well prepared, and in some cases tax-exempt. I think we are letting our anger blind us the lessons to be learned from the Obama campaign, and also worried that we will exhaust our momentum before a new national group can be formed.

   Posted by: Mike | Nov 12, 2008 12:42:37 PM

   
   

2. I'll be there!

   Posted by: JohnInManhattan | Nov 12, 2008 12:44:26 PM

   
   

3. So, it's great that people are marching about Prop 8. However, in reference to a previous post here about the "rogue" Democrats in the NY State Assembly, who are trying to force the issue of gay marriage off the table, is anyone protesting against them?

   Has anyone planned a protest at Senator Ruben Diaz's home, or in his district? He seems to be single-handedly able to prevent the NY Assembly from considering marriage equality. Wouldn't the efforts of the GLBT residents of NY be better served by directly confronting the bigots in their midst, who actually have the power to prevent marriage equality?

   Posted by: Mwk | Nov 12, 2008 12:48:05 PM

   
   

4. I agree with the post by Mike. I have covered this idea in my new blog which is for this issue. It is called "The Turning Tide" and the address is: www.sterling-smith.blogspot.com

   Posted by: Sterling Smith | Nov 12, 2008 12:50:45 PM

   
   

5. Mike and Sterling - there is something developing, stay tuned.

   Posted by: andy | Nov 12, 2008 1:00:04 PM

   
   

6. I will be there tonight and hopefully will make it to the rally on Saturday! So glad this will be big tonight. This is more than just California and it's more than just gay rights. This is about religious groups pushing their agendas into the secular world of government . . . and robbing people of their rights.

   Posted by: Alex | Nov 12, 2008 1:04:37 PM

   
   

7. There definitely need to be some signs calling out Diaz at all these rallies or gay marriage won't be coming to NY.

   Posted by: Jersey | Nov 12, 2008 1:16:08 PM

   
   

8. Equality is a right, not a privilege. If I was an atheist, why would I have to live my life based on another person's religious beliefs ?

   Posted by: Laura Divine | Nov 12, 2008 1:18:34 PM

   
   

9. It's great that everyone is so motivated and active in the wake of Prop 8's passage. But I sure wish that everyone doing this had done it *before* Election Day.

   I say this as a straight man (husband, father, weekly church-goer) who spent at least one night a week since July volunteering for the No On 8 campaign... probably 20 consecutive Thursday nights out on Santa Monica Blvd. in WeHo, doing In Person Volunteer Recruiting for No On 8. Believe me when I tell you that for every new person that we would manage to get a volunteer commitment from, there were another 40 or 50 folks (at least) who couldn't be bothered to stop for twenty seconds on their way into The Abbey or Rage. It really was like pulling teeth out there, trying to get volunteer commitments from the LBGT community, which was so frustrating for me, especially, as a heterosexual volunteer with no personal stake in the outcome of Prop 8, being bypassed by people who, if they cared about the issue at all, felt that their $25 annual check to HRC was contribution enough, or that it was far more important to spend weekends in Reno knocking on doors for a political candidate who absolutely submarined our fight to defend California's 18,000 same-sex marriages by declaring that he does not believe in gay marriage, and that marriage is for a man and a woman.

   Sure, over time, we managed to reel some very talented, committed, politically-savvy volunteers into the No On 8 campaign... tens of thousands, statewide. But that was nothing compared to the army of folks on the other side. They came from all over the nation to California, and numbered in the hundreds of thousands. And their fight to revoke marriage equality was *far* more important to them than the presidential election was. And most crucially, they spent their man-hours back when it mattered: *before* November 4th.

   The fact that we couldn't come close to matching their numbers back then, and that only now, when it's moot, are so many proponents of marriage equality putting their bodies out there on the streets is, again, greatly frustrating to me personally, and brings me back to those frustrating Thursday nights I spent this summer on the streets of WeHo, trying with all my might to get people to care about this issue, and largely failing.

   Patrick Meighan
   Culver City, CA

   Posted by: Patrick Meighan | Nov 12, 2008 1:24:12 PM

   
   

10. Patrick,

    I'm sorry for the frustration.

    I'm sure there was just a whole lot of crazy going on before the election, particularly with most of trying to get Obama elected. I am not sure what the climate was like in CA--did people think Prop 8 had no chance? I honestly thought it would be struck down (even though I donated money from here in NYC just to be safe).

    I think speaking for myself, Obama's election really drove home the idea of civil rights and equality. I think his being elected and feeling like the gays were left out of the party have sparked a strong desire to protest. In addition, I think now that he is elected, many of us can solely focus on this issue. And it seems to have spread from CA to the entire country . . . which is as it should be.

    It's unfortunate we're having to protest, but in the end it's mobilized the gay community, particularly the younger ones who don't remember ACT UP or Queer Nation. And in the end, that's a very good thing.

    Posted by: Alex | Nov 12, 2008 1:33:39 PM

    
    

11. "I'm sorry for the frustration. I'm sure there was just a whole lot of crazy going on before the election, particularly with most of trying to get Obama elected."

    Yeah, see, that's just so frustrating to me, too. It irks that, while No On 8 was in desperate need of additional volunteers, our nation's LGBT community spent such a disproportionate amount of its time and energy (and money) working to elect someone who is a public opponent of marriage equality, and whose public opposition to marriage equality--and plain-English quotes about being "against gay marriage"--probably sealed the narrow passage of Prop 8 in California. Obama's stance "against gay marriage" and declaring that "marriage is between a man and a woman" is tantamount to a declaration that same-sex relationships aren't as valid as heterosexual relationships, nor are they as worthy of the state's respect and protection. Were I homosexual, I'd consider that a slap to my face. I'd be offended. Heck, I *am* offended, despite my sexual orientation. But, generally speaking, California's LGBT's shrugged it off, wrote out big fat checks for the guy, trundled off to Vegas for doorknocking for the guy, and wept big silly tears of joy on Election Night listening to his pretty speech about this being our moment... all while No On 8 was begging and pleading--PLEADING!--for the state's LGBT community to fully involve itself in a dogfight that stood to *revoke* fundamental rights from same-sex couples for the first time in state history. Which is, of course, exactly what ended up happening

    I can't even begin to tell you how frustrating it all is to me.

    That said, Obama sure did give a heck of a nice speech on Election Night, so there's that.

    "I am not sure what the climate was like in CA--did people think Prop 8 had no chance?"

    I dunno. I think people just assumed other people would do the work, so they wouldn't have to.

    I sometimes used to muse over a silly analogy on those Thursday nights, when I was largely failing to recruit volunteers. I thought of a make-believe ballot measure (call it Prop 20), which, if passed, would make it legal to hunt and kill anyone named Dave. My name doesn't happen to be Dave, but I'm horrified at the thought that such a thing would be legal. What an evil, oppressive measure, endangering all of California's Daves!

    So I volunteer for No On 20, and they send me to West Daveland... the California community with the highest concentration of Dave's in the whole state. My conversations go like this:

    Me: "Excuse me, are you aware of Prop 20? The constitutional measure that would make it legal to hunt and kill all people named Dave?"
    Someone Named Dave: "Oh yeah, and I think it's terrible!"
    Me: "Me too!"
    Someone Named Dave: "Why can't the churches just leave Daves alone?"
    Me: "Seriously, I agree. That's why I'm volunteering for No On 20, the campaign to preserve Daves, and--"
    Someone Named Dave: "Cool, I'm voting No On 20."
    Me: "Great, that's great, but here's the thing: we need to spread the word about Prop 20, and convince California's voters that Prop 20 is unfair to Daves, and to all Californians."
    Someone Named Dave: "Oh..."
    Me: "So we've got a big phone bank coming up this Saturday morning--"
    Someone Named Dave: "You know, I'm really busy Saturday mornings..."
    Me: "Hey, I'm busy too. I understand. But Prop 20 is gonna be *such* a close vote, and if I don't get involved and then Prop 20 passes by a narrow margin, and they start killing Daves, I'm just gonna be so mad at myself for not doing my part. So, look, we've also got Sunday night phone banks from 5 to 8--"
    Someone Named Dave: "Yeah, Sunday's don't work, really, I just started school, and I've got a lot of reading and stuff, but if you got a petition you want me to sign or something..."
    Me: "No, there's no petition. This is *on* the ballot. The only way to stop Prop 20 is to get involved. Now, on Tuesday and Thursday we got visibility actions--"
    Someone Named Dave: "No, I'm sorry, I just... look, my friend's waiting for me at East/West, so, thanks for doing what you're doing, but I just don't think volunteering is gonna work for me at this time."

    Repeat the above conversation hundreds and hundreds of time, and replace all the "hunting Dave" stuff with repealing marriage rights for same-sex couples, and that's the conversation I had all summer and autumn long.

    Patrick Meighan
    Culver City, CA

    Posted by: Patrick Meighan | Nov 12, 2008 2:12:37 PM

    
    

12. Many people I spoke to in CA said that they were convinced that Prop 8 would not pass... they were totally convinced that Californians were more sensible than that.

    But then we had all the misinformation and lies fed in there via the Mormon and Catholic sponsored ads, and all those on the fence got scared. THAT is why we need to nail theses lying bigoted churches hard and fast! THEY lied and swayed the tide... involved themselves in a political cause, and as such, should lose their tax exemptions!

    Posted by: CK | Nov 12, 2008 2:30:42 PM

    
    

13. Patrick, I have to say that I really do feel your frustration. Many gay people I talk to just will not get involved, and we are very lucky that someone like you, who is not impacted directly personally in the dire outcome (since you are straight), is prepared to put yourself on the line 'out there' for us. Thank you for all you did... and I hope that you will not give up on us...

    I do think that the mobilization after the fact might be stronger than just participation before the fact. I hope that this will be the equivalent of Stonewall in the 2000's, motivating gay people to fight back! Now that it is obvious that we need to do the work to get the job done, or face the outcomes like Prop 8, more people will get off their asses and yell at the top of their lungs that they will not stand for it anymore.

    I for one will be yelling that tonight! And on the weekend!

    As someone in LA's poster read (and I appropriated it for my poster for tonight) "No More Mr. Nice Gay!"

    Posted by: CK | Nov 12, 2008 2:39:26 PM

    
    

14. Andy,

    Do you know if any of the people who are putting together this proposed national campaign are connecting with members of the Obama campaign? Clearly, the Obama campaign was/is the best organized political organization in the last 40 years. Why re-invent the wheel when you can borrow it?

    The Obama team and the Netroots folks put together an awesome blend of grassroots, on the ground politicking with world-class technology. Why not get a hold of some of the people who helped build and maintain MyBarackObama.com?

    I think the efforts and passion on display are incredible but there has to be a recognition that California is just one battlefield. There were losses in Arkansas and Florida.

    Federal legislation is critical! There has to be a focus on the big federal legislation:

    1. ENDA
    2. DOMA
    3. DADT
    4. Civil Unions w/ Full Marriage Equality
    5. Progressive, GLBTQ-friendly Appeals & Supreme Court justices.

    I know that people hate "civil unions," but it's a start.

    As evidenced by the Yes on Prop 8's disinformation campaign, Bill O'Reilly's report, and trolls like the Queen, there is a deliberate effort and inclination to divide and conquer. That means people who are leading this thing have to be smart. They have to know how to lead AND educate.
    _____

    Finally, could you please post a link to PBS' documentary on Lee Atwater, the late evil genius who designed the Right-wing's divide and conquer strategy?

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/atwater/

    It's vital that people understand how disinformation campaigns work and how much a part they are to the Republican/Right-wing hate machine's success.

    Posted by: noah | Nov 12, 2008 2:40:54 PM

    
    

15. I have to agree with a lot of what's been said here: 1) this is a lot of commotion a little too late; 2) there's a long history here - beginning when the Mormon church (in whose fold I happen to have been raised) filed an amicus curiae brief in the gay marriage case before the Hawaii Supreme Court way back in 1999 - which may bear lessons worth applying to a more strategic response this time around; and 3) the organization behind all of these post facto rallies pales in comparison to the centralized organization issuing admonitions to action from church pulpits across America.

    Finally, holding a demonstration at the Temple on a Wednesday night strikes me as a little odd, and I can't help but think the guy who thought this up is neither Mormon, nor knows much about them. Temple access and ritual is an exclusive affair even among the Mormon rank and file; many Mormons aren't permitted to enter, much less participate, if considered 'unworthy' for no more reason than they're behind on their tithing payments. Temples are hardly regional administration offices: these gated, impenetrable fortresses operate on their own plane and agenda - independently, even invisibly, from the experience of the average Sunday church-going Mormon. Interaction with average Mormon Joes tonight is likely to be next to nil, much less anyone else (has anyone hung out near Lincoln Center midweek after 5? Ghost town...) - except, of course, a few hundred thousand fair-weather activists looking forward to a block party before hitting the bars in Hell's Kitchen.

    Don't get me wrong - I think the enthusiasm for this is great. I just think it would be better channeled into a) fundraising at a national level; b) getting a similar measure back on the ballot for the next cycle and hope fewer social conservatives show up to vote in an off-year; c) suing the Church to release financial records as a condition of maintaining non-profit status; and d) retooling the campaign to focus on a pro-marriage (social stability) message rather than an anti-discrimination (civil rights) message.

    You'd think by now civil rights would go without saying in this culture, but based on the outcome last Tuesday, apparently not - and if not in California, we can expect a lot less from electorates everywhere else. The reality is that this culture has a fragile relationship with anti-discrimination rhetoric, and the argument breaks down for us when civil unions enter the picture without difficult legal appeals against "separate but equal" policy. Middle-of-the-road moderate conservatives (the live-and-let-livers), who would otherwise let us do our thing, have indicated they're unwilling to totally rethink a basic institution they take for granted merely to satisfy the me-too whims of gay vanity. For our part, we can't seem to make up our minds between "marriage", a revered institution we want equal access to; and "marriage", that outdated artifact of traditional heterosexism we'd like to see defrocked of its special status. Until we arrive at some internal clarity about these things, even an unlikely reversal in California will be at best a phyrric victory (like the novelty that was Gavin Newsom's mayoral directive) in a much steeper cultural battle we're a long ways from winning.

    Posted by: Adam Clarke | Nov 12, 2008 2:50:41 PM

    
    

16. JohnInManhattan - I was thinking the same exact thing. We should be protesting Diaz every day, make it so he can't get anything done. We should also force investigations into all of the controversies he is rumored to be complicit in. While all bigots should be reviled and called out, Diaz seems like a particularly good one to start with. I also think it would be smart to reach out to some Republican State Senators in order to see if we could change their minds on the issue. It's close, but this could be our best chance to get equality in NY. Furthermore, we should really take this rogue group of senators as an example, and remember how influential state races can be. Next time they are up on the ballot, I say we launch an all out campaign against them, especially Diaz.

    Posted by: Jon B | Nov 12, 2008 3:03:35 PM

    
    

17. This will certainly end up in the Supreme Court. I believe that Obama will nominate a better candidate regarding this issue than McHate.

    Posted by: kansastock | Nov 12, 2008 3:07:29 PM

    
    

18. Patrick,

    I want to thank you for everything you did, and apology for the frustration you felt. I think this post from Dan Savage explains what you experienced:

    http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2008/11/12/and_here_s_what_s_wrong_with_g

    Posted by: Mike | Nov 12, 2008 8:44:32 PM

    
    

19. Patrick,

    thanks for stepping up to the plate when so many of the LGBT didn't or were unable to for whatever reason. here is my perspective/confession. i fully understand your frustration. i, too, am frustrated. At the LGBT community and at myself. I've blamed everyone from african americans to mormons to older people. . . now, i need to accept my part in the passage of prop 8.

    I live in San Francisco.

    it seems to me that the gay community has been complacent for many years allowing our legal teams to fight for our rights and with us donating money as causes came up. but, we've not been out en masse protesting the injustices that have befallen our community for some time (barring the occasional uprising??)

    I'm a lover not a fighter. I'm completely out of the closet to everyone with whom i interact. Coming out of the closet is the number one activist act one can do to inform people that we are deserving of human rights.

    here is my admission: prop 8 has been on my radar since gay marriage was legalized in california. i've been worried about prop 8 all along, but, in the beginning the polls showed that support for it was not high with 55% against the proposition. i think the LGBT community was complacent after this poll came out. then, as the "yes on 8" campaign started coming out with their ads which portrayed gays as a threat to children, churches, and society, and, as the polls shifted completely in the other direction to 55% in support, i began to emotionally crumble. I was fucking paralyzed All my shit from my childhood came up about being less than human, not deserving, defective. i donated more than i could afford, i was unable to focus on work/school and i basically contracted into a really dark space. i remember hearing gay groups talk about toxic shame that we as gay people harbor due to the heterosexist world in which we live. the weeks before the election have been spent with me dealing with this toxic shame. i did volunteer for the no on 8 campaign, but, i should have done more. i should have done more.

    for that i am truly sorry.

    however, now that i am backed into a corner with the religious right breathing down my neck, fighting is my only option. i can only speak for myself, but, i am wondering if any others out there can attest a similar reaction to the weeks leading up to the election.

    we have work to do. i have work to do. prop 8 has galvanized the entire gay community. MILK will be out in a couple of weeks. prop 8 may have the unintended consequence of igniting the LGBT rights movement.

    thoughts?

    Posted by: jason | Nov 12, 2008 8:49:11 PM

    
    

20. My favorite fridge magnet - "Stop Using Jesus As An Excuse For Being A Narrow-Minded Bigoted Asshole."

    Posted by: 2nd Class Citizen | Nov 12, 2008 10:06:14 PM

    
    

21. Saw the story on the New York ABC station on the web. Great job NYC! And thank you Whoopi for being there too.

    Posted by: sharksfansd | Nov 13, 2008 2:13:39 AM

    
    

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