1. kit says

    A great way to make a great point. But I guess my question is why this point has not been made clear to, for example, the voters in North Carolina? The message put out here seems so obvious to me, but it is not obvious to thousands and thousands of voters. What are we doing wrong getting this point across?

  2. yikes says

    @kit – regardless of all the good and honest viewpoints out that are available at the click of a mouse, most of us – and i do it too – balkanize ourselves with information that supports our fears

  3. Mike says

    Unfortunately, the opposition to marriage is really just a disguise for their disapproval of homosexuality. I grew up in a conservative area… community, church and all. They have a belief that if they do nothing that they are “condoning” sin. Some of my old friends have come around… others are slowly coming around…and there are others that will never budge.

  4. Rob says

    Attitudes toward gay folks have changed faster than any social issue ever recorded- those for and against prohibition, women’s rights, civil rights. Not fast enough for me, but still we are making great progress. In part this is because the opposition has no great logic (as shown above) and really only has grumbling on their side.

    I think that truly straight people have no trouble with same-gender desire. It’s the Kinsey 3’s in the gray zone who are fighting homosexuality in themselves who fight homosexuality on all fronts. Once we firmly link homophobia with repressed same-gender desire in the public eye, they will shut up.

  5. Pointed says

    Let’s see. Gays make up about 3% of the population. Only 16% of the US grants access to gay marriage. .03 * .16 = .0048. So .48% of the population is affecting the other 99.52% of the populations marriages. Seems like the hetero marriages are very, very fragile indeed. Perhaps hets should just worry about their own sanctity and not divert their attentions to fighting gay marriage.

  6. mary says

    OK, it STARTED OUT funny. And I was fully ready to see my own side being teased a bit. When his wife was in the picture I thought the theme was that she left him because gay marriage became legal and she wanted to marry a woman or experiment with lesbianism. THAT theme was funny and had me chuckling because anyone who wants to experiment is going to do so regardless of what is legal – and if she’s happy in her marriage then she wouldn’t want anyone else. But then he brought in the idea that gay marriage made him stub his toe, that Guatelmalans are also causing his troubles, and hit the little girl as well as accuse old people of smelling. This struck me as overkill and ruined the effect of the video.

    But he has that rare ability to look totally serious when saying something rip-roaringly funny. A shame he went too far with the snarkyness. This could have been a really funny and useful video. Several times when watching this I was tempted to re-write the song and email it to him saying “Now HERE’S what you should have written…..!”

  7. mary says

    “Once we firmly link homophobia with repressed same-gender desire in the public eye, they will shut up”

    Rob, I agree with you that attitudes toward gays are changing rapidly, and its great to hear someone on Towleroad admit what amazing progress has been achieved in what is historically a brief period of time. And take my word for it: many formerly homophobic people are actualy HAPPY to discover that their own views are shifting (much to their surprise, in some cases.) But accusing every homophobic person of harboring same-sex desire is not a wise policy. It’s a sign of immaturity to insist that everyone who opposes you secretly longs for what you have. Also, if people are “embarrassed” into silence on the gay marriage issue the public is likely to feel for them and resent gay rights advocates – most people don’t like anyone questioning what their stated sexual preference is in public. Best to keep engaging those willing to dialogue – and ignore the genuine homophobes.

  8. TJ says

    I really shouldn’t, but I’m finding it too hard to resist. Ruined it for you, MARY? You’d have re-written it? You didn’t get that the idea of scapegoating gays for destroying marriage is in itself so over-the-top and snarky in its ridiculousness as a concept was what was being skewered? You didn’t get that scapegoating anyone was what was being skewered? You preferred that it support your ridiculous idea that once it is legal, women will leave their husbands for other women? Really?

    It’s merely immaturity that is behind the idea that the loudest protesters have the most to hide? It’s called Reaction Formation. Look it up.

    You are entitled to your opinions. But really, you should just keep them to yourself. And please, don’t give me your crap about “just ignore me.” You write in hopes that you are read.

    Don’t go away mad. Just go away. You are no ally. You are not evolving. You are clinging to your fears as you throw them in our faces.

  9. mary says

    TJ, did you actually READ what I wrote? I was laughing at my own side – when the idea was that this guy was deserted by his wife due to gay marriage being technically legal. When did I say that the creator of this video should support my anti-gay marriage views? When I said I’d re-write it I mean re-write to to help HIS side of the argument.

    And no it ISN’T true that the “loudest protesters have the most to hide.” That line just makes the people who say it feel good. The fact that the idea is given a name by psychologists doesn’t mean it is true. Of course, there are SOME protesters who have things to hide. But it is far from all and the tendency to use this line across-the-board does seem adolescent. Did traditionalist women of the 1970’s say that feminists were really jealous because none of them could find a “God-fearing husband?” Yes, the naive/stupid ones did. But most didn’t.

    When will you forgive me for the “homoballistic” remark – the word is out of my vocabulary forever. But Brandon has already said he enjoys reading most of my posts and is grateful (the word he used!) that I’m here. So I’m not leaving.

    Not to be passive-aggressive, but if you’d rather I not comment on any post of yours I’ll oblige you.

    And damn it, my own views ARE evolving. But I can’t do a complete 180 in 6 months.

    We don’t have to be friends if you don’t want, but why are you determined to hate me?

  10. TJ says

    >OK, it STARTED OUT funny… When his wife was in the picture I thought the theme was that she left him because gay marriage became legal and she wanted to marry a woman or experiment with lesbianism. THAT theme was funny…But then he brought in the idea that gay marriage made him stub his toe, that Guatelmalans are also causing his troubles… This struck me as overkill and ruined the effect of the video.<

    Your words, MARY. You judge the video by your standards, by YOUR viewpoint. You say the video fails, rather than take responsibility that you fail to see ITS humor, which is your right, but is also just your opinion.

    His argument doesn’t need your help. I thought it was funny as is. I thought his theme of scapegoating was terrific. You don’t want to see the views of the religious right and your boy Santorum as fear-mongering. You want to see it as having some validity. It doesn’t. No matter how many times you post.

    No, you don’t have to accept psychological terms any more than you have to accept facts or deny fallacies or stop fearing boogiemen. You can just keep going on in your merry Mary way. It’s a free country.

    You don’t get to kid like one of the family. Your use of the word you keep repeating while apologizing, homoballistic, is only one example of your failing to “get it.” The sum and total of your disingenuous, “What, me? What did I say?” posts, which you keep posting while you claim best intentions, while you claim that you would like to learn more. “Don’t offend me! I may just come around!” as you continue to offend us. Well Lucy, you can take the football and go home. Charlie Brown ain’t kickin’ it with you anymore.

    I’m not angry with you, Mary. I’m annoyed. I’m irritated. Your grains of opinion have yet to produce a pearl. I harbor no fantasy of that ever happening.

  11. mary says

    “Don’t offend me! I may just come around!”

    TJ, I’ve ALREADY come around and changed on several gay rights issues. This is why I tell you so much about what it would take to win people over. Since it happened to me I can provide some info on what it takes to make that happen with even someone who is as hard-core Right as I am. You can reject this info is you want, but I assumed others might at least want to consider it.

    And the reason I keep repeating that “H word” is because you’ve made it clear that you think I posted it to belittle gays when it was an honest misunderstanding of how it would be interpreted. And I’ve said many times that I am not a member of the LGBT community but an grateful that my presence is tolerated here.

    I have a feeling that you are suffering from what psychologists might like to all “stereotype boomerang syndrome” – which is the tendency to get bothered when someone from “the opposition” appears to disprove all the stereotypes you enjoy believing about them. You want me to go away because I make the opposition look well-meaning (even if wrong) and interested in sincere dialogue.

    If you’re being honest you’ll note how many times I’ve said that I’m not advising the gay community to give up on its goal of full equality, but to simply use a more effective strategy to get there. If I came here actually trying to convince you that you should give up on your goals for “the good of society” that would be unbelievable arrogance, and the moderators of this site would have every reason to show me the door.

    If you’re angry at anyone for my being on Towleroad, you can blame gay author and essayist Jonathan Rauch. His writings are why I ended up here.

  12. TJ says

    What an ego! MARY, you want us to make YOU comfortable, and also presume that you speak for conservatives. As MARY goes, so goes the nation! Who knew you had such influence?

    And you want us to buy into the notion that making you feel comfortable is in our best interest. If we play nice, by your definition of nice, we will benefit, without any appreciation of the concept that we shouldn’t have to beg. Don’t rock the boat, even though conservatives are the ones making us seasick.

    In the classic victim/perpetrator dynamic, you don’t acknowledge how offensive your boy Santorum is to the gay community. He equates our relationships with beastiality. If he becomes president, he would advocate for a constitutional amendment that would not only deny equality, but destroy established families. He denigrates our integrity as human beings. His rhetoric justifies and reinforces religious bigotry as legitimate. Yet WE are offensive because we laugh about the definition of Santorum. And our offense is the one we should be working on. Our offense is worse.

    And I am the one who is to blame because I dont like that you make the opposition look well-meaning? Well- meaning? Puh-leeze!

  13. TJ says

    “because SHE won’t succeed.” Really? Trying to bully me by playing the RICK card? Every time? Really? Don’t flatter yourself.

    There it is folks. In her own words. Revealing her true lack of empathy, of soul. Playing the victim card, as is required in the conservative play book. Patronizing, pathetic, and winning all awards for running, jumping, and standing gall.

    MARY is officially a troll. So sorry I was ever fooled. Be forewarned. Engage her at your peril.

  14. Dan says

    You say you’re evolving, and since I happen to be in a decent mood from having a good night’s sleep and just finishing a hot meal, I’m willing to give you the benefit of a doubt. So let me explain to you what’s offensive about some of the things you have said on this post:
    1. Your interpretation of the video badly misses the point. The song was trying to make the point that gays are scapegoated for almost any bad thing that can happen in society. A person who acknowledges this would have found the bits about Guatemalans, old people, and stubbing his toe funny, because blaming those things on gays is every bit as ridiculous as blaming things like divorce, pedophilia, the 9/11 attacks, tornadoes, and Hurricane Katrina on the gays. WE HAVE BEEN BLAMED FOR ALL THOSE THINGS IN REAL LIFE! Your interpretation seeks to deny this, and claiming that you want to “rewrite” the song makes it clear that you are in denial about this pattern of blame and not simply ignorant of it.
    2. Your presumption to tell us what’s “wise” and “best” in the struggle for equality is arrogant. Imagine if a total stranger walked into your workplace while you’re in the middle of a task, and said to you, “You’re doing it wrong.” Then imagine that you discover that this stranger works for a rival company. That’s what you sound like to us. It’s our struggle; we know how to fight it. We do so in the way that works best for us, not the way that works best for you.
    3. You do not make the opposition look “well-meaning.” You ought to have figured that out from the way people respond to you. In fact you tend to confirm the stereotype of the homophobe who looks down on gays as a way of feeling better about his/her own problems. Whether look down with hatred and contempt or you look down patronizingly, it’s still looking down.

    Evolving is not something others can do for you; it’s something you have to do yourself. If you’re sincere about your desire to evolve, you need to do less talking and more listening.

  15. St. Theresa of Avila says

    “But accusing every homophobic person of harboring same-sex desire is not a wise policy.”

    No, I just accuse most of them. I’ve known evangelicals that seemed straight, but a higher portion of them than what I’d call the general population seemed like closet cases. This phenomena crosses racial boundaries, btw. When I think of the most closeted seeming people I’ve known or met, all but one of them were either Mormon, hard core Catholic or fundie.

    And TJ you meant cavalry, right? Although if it’s a deliberate spoonerism, it’s a funny one.

  16. St. Theresa of Avila says

    As for the trolls, there’s really a case to be made for just banning them. They don’t truly contribute and they just waste everyone’s time in responding to them. This is not really the place for a “conservative” to try to “evolve” – go do that on Huffington Post. It’s a forum for the GLBT community. Although I find most of Rick’s post outrageous and disagree at least in part with them with them, I don’t quite consider him a troll. He seems like someone who’s just misguided. For example, with the Texas 71 on 25 attack case, yes at first the gay guy might seem like a wuss. But for anybody capable of putting more than 2 seconds of brain cycles into the question, one realizes if he’d hurt the old bag, he would probably have been thrown in jail and viciously roughly up by the local hick cops. He played it smarter by not escalating back.
    BTW, since to whatever degree “teh gay” might be inherited it seems to be maternally inherited (X linked), the fact her son was moving in with a 25 year old hottie suggests she might be an angry closet case herself.

  17. St. Theresa of Avila says

    Ooops, meant viciously treated…or roughed up. Not operating on enough sleep right now.

    Not sure if there are stats out there, but surely many if not most right wing blogs & news sites remove or down-mod liberal (i.e., sane) responders. I’m getting sick of how discussions around here are getting off-track, compared to years past. I think Andy already does it for the most crazy posts.

  18. Dan says

    Personally, St. Theresa, I prefer an unmoderated forum. I think having a healthy diversity of viewpoints is worth dealing with the occasional bigot or blowhard. Sexual politics is the politics of emotion, and not letting people express their emotions (however irrational or or one-sided) is just going to encourage the common delusion that an argument about emotional economy is somehow going to be won by detached rationalistic arguments.
    You gotta admit, though, Rick is the trolliest troll ever to beam down from his trollship from trollsexual trollsylvania.

  19. mary says

    Does everyone here still think I’m an alias of this “Rick” or “Jason” or whoever the heck else he is? Rick clearly has a problem with women. I AM a woman. And I mistakenly thought TJ was. There is an AJ here and a JJ. Apparently I got him confused with one of the other “J’s.” I guess this is another thing I’ll have to spend the next 10 posts apologizing for.

    I didn’t ask anyone to make me “comfortable” here. I’ve written enough advice here for people to tell where I’m coming from philosophically. Many of you seem to think I’m arrogant just because you don’t like the advice I give. Well, a lot of what’s good for us doesn’t always feel good and isn’t always nice to hear. I can’t change this reality for you.

    As for me working for a “rival company” I no longer know what company I work for on the gay marriage issue. I’d think that anyone by now would be able to tell that I’m trying desperately to convince myself that gay marriage IS a good idea and should be supported. Yet you want me to “evolve somewhere else?” Don’t you want allies for heaven’s sake? There’s more at stake than your feelings, however justifable they are. Gay people of today AND the future need protection and acceptance. And I intend to see that they get it.

    If I have to be supportive of the gay community by going elsehwere I will, but only if the moderators decide to change the name of Towleroad to “The Angry Gay and Lesbian Emotionalist Forum.”

  20. TJ says

    Delusion and arrogance and condescension all in one not-so-short post.

    So fortunate to witness such brilliance! So fortunate that like it or not, want it or not, need it or not, MARY will continue to save us from ourselves!

    Such generosity of spirit! I smell sainthood in her future.


  21. says

    hey gays! remember when we (along with single mothers) were responsible for 9/11?

    or how gay marriage was the cause of massive “natural” disasters?

    gotta love when the Conservative Right makes statements that make their “God” sound like a complete idiot.

    gays married, so now there are earthquakes!
    6 million+ Jews exterminated in the Holocaust….and “God” didn’t bring so much as a breeze.


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