Comments

  1. Rick says

    No, Luke, you are not “born gay” or born with any other sexual orientation…..and if you really want to fight bullying, then attiring yourself in pink is not the way to do it. That will only cause you to be bullied even more.

  2. says

    ignore the grown-adult wimp who still is terrified of the color PINK. that’s just hilarious.

    there’s something magical happening with today’s youth – and it’s not just the courage of those young LGBT people who are Coming Out at younger and younger ages – students are coming out as ALLIES to lgbt people at younger and younger ages as well.

    we’re finally getting generations that are being born with not only awareness of, but ACCEPTANCE of, a gay brother or sister, an aunt or uncle, family friends, neighbors, and on and on.

    young people who are growing up not only feeling that it’s OK, and great, to be LGBT – but growing up being aware that being anti-LGBT is not acceptable, nor admirable, nor a quality one will want in a friend.

    we’re closer than ever to the incoming age where one becomes a pariah not for being “queer”, but for being anti-LGBT. it’ll happen, and it’s happening more and more already.

    but just so we’re all clear, there’s nothing inherently harmful about the color pink and any grown man who thinks there is is a complete wuss.

  3. CKNJ says

    I can’t believe there are still some self-deluders that deny we are born gay… I had a very balanced upbringing in my family and my brothers and I are all individuals in a one gay two straight ratio… sorry for those that buy into the haters rhetoric, but we ARE born gay. Glad H8sux.com has stepped up to do something about bullying, instead of passively allowing it to continue like some…

  4. Rick says

    @CKNJ There is not one shred of evidence to support the idea that there is any genetic basis for sexual orientation. Not one shred.

    Your desire to believe that is based entirely on what you believe to be politically expedient, not on legitimate scientific fact.

    And what’s more, your belief is a defensive posture in response to the Religious Right–and that defensive posture is proof that you are letting them define the issue for you and for everyone else….and that you accept their basic premise that same-sex attraction is in some way immoral or wrong.

    If you did not accept that premise, then you would not feel the need to invent “facts” to try and prove them wrong.

    No, if you were truly liberated, your position would be that, although we don’t really know what causes sexual orientation (which IS scientific fact), it makes no difference because homosexual or bisexual expression is every bit as valid as heterosexual expression and therefore does not require any “justification” whatsoever.

    And wearing cute little pink shirts will do nothing to stop bullying–the only thing that will stop it is for gay men to decide that they are men, act like it, and defend themselves like men when they are harrassed or otherwise called on to do so. Do that and straight men will respect you and leave you alone–fail to do so and you will continue to be victimized.

    And no amount of rhetoric is going to change any of what I just said, whether you like it or not.

  5. says

    of course, RICK can’t prove that he’s this “manly man” that he claims to be.

    got the URL where you prove it, RICK? of course not.

    that’s the good news about guys like Rick – they make no impact whatsoever. dont’ fret about him, folks. He’ll die in that closet :-)

    only the world’s most insecure wimps complain about the color Pink from the anonymity of an online internet Closet.

    fact.

  6. Jack says

    Rick, you’re contradicting yourself.

    On one hand, you say that people shouldn’t wear pink because they will get bullied more (side note: I’m about as stereotypically masculine as they get and I wear pink all the time).

    On the other hand, you say that to be really “liberated,” you have to acknowledge that no matter whether it’s genetic or not, sexual orientations are equal and don’t require any justification for why they should be viewed as such.

    So which is it? Do we make decisions based on the reactions of others, or do we stand strong and say regardless of what you think about the reasons, it’s ok to be (or dress, as it may be) this way?

    (Another side note: I can’t believe I’m agreeing with Kiwi on something… My head hurts)

  7. says

    RICK comes from the school of “if a bully hates something then their hatred is justified”

    he continues to blame “effeminate men” for this being Closeted, and for anti-gay prejudice. There’s a reason for this – he’s angry that the so-called “femmes” he’s been brought up to hate and have disdain for actually more Man than he’ll ever be – after all, they’re not the ones living closeted fearful lives wherein they spend every day hoping that they can “pass for white”.

    a real man stands up for those who are discriminated against and targeted. a coward joins the bullies and says “yeah, i hate those fags that wear pink! let me join you in hating them so you don’t hate me!”

    it’s the epitome of cowardice.

  8. Dan E says

    @Rick: I’ll grant that it shouldn’t matter whether we are born gay or not (though you’re wrong that there’s not “one shred” of scientific evidence; there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that there’s a strong genetic component in sexual orientation; those who try to reduce root causes to either “all genetic” or “not genetic at all” for things like sexual orientation or personality variations are idiots in my book, anyway).

    That said, WTF on everything else you say. There’s something wrong with wearing pink? Straight guys won’t respect us if we wear pink? We should modify our behavior to appeal to some putative, monolithic “straight guy” view?

    Are you serious?

    I’m not certain what your definition of “manly” is, but it sounds positively neolithic to me. Personally, I respect people who aren’t afraid to be who they are. If that’s something that deviates from traditional notions of masculine for a gay men, so be it.

    And the notion that wearing pink is somehow taboo for men… what decade are you living in? What part of the country? I mean, seriously.

    @Jack: I know, right? Normally I find Kiwi to be strident and narrow-minded in his so-called open-mindedness, but he hit the nail on the head here.

  9. V-8 says

    as far as I know, blue being a color for boys and red for girls is actually something quite recent, less than 100 years old… same with pink… colors have no intrinsic meaning Rick… look up the word if u r not sure what it means…

  10. Rick says

    @Jack So many gay men confuse the issues of homosexuality and effeminacy. They are separate questions altogether.

    In this culture, pink connotes femininity. You can argue the legitimacy of that connotation, but then again, you could argue the legitimacy of ANY aspect of ANY culture. Doing so, however, would lead to absolute anarchy, because no society can exist in any cohesive fashion without some kind of agreed-upon cultural principles.

    So you pick your battles.

    For a group such as gay men, who have been shunned by society (in particular, by other men) largely because they have failed to live up to the standards of masculinity, deliberately choosing a symbol of femininity (the color pink) as their symbol only reinforces the very notion that caused them to be shunned in the first place.

    Logically, if you want to change the views of other men, gain their respect, and thereby, eliminate the underlying causes of bullying, the way to do so is to distance yourself from any feminine symbolism……but far more importantly, as I said, to behave like a man when you are harrassed and defend yourself like other men would in similar situations.

    If, as an individual, you are willing to do that–and still want to wear pink, fine. But imagining that gay men as a group wearing pink T-shirts with cute little slogans on them is going to make straight men respect them–in the absence of a willingness to stand up for oneself physically–is just ludicrous.

    Do you seriously think that any straight man will wear one of these shirts? No–and they are the only group that matters in all this, since they are the ones doing the bullying.

    Is this really that hard to understand?

  11. Rick says

    “I’m not certain what your definition of “manly” is, but it sounds positively neolithic to me. Personally, I respect people who aren’t afraid to be who they are. If that’s something that deviates from traditional notions of masculine for a gay men, so be it.”

    Right….and here we have the basic source of the problem. Gay men believing that a) masculinity is a “problem” to be solved rather than a natural expression of maleness, and b) delusionally telling themselves that standards of masculinity are going to go away and that that is the solution to their problems, rather than embracing the same standards of masculinity that straight men (and society in general) embrace.

    You don’t want to eradicate homophobia; you want to eradicate masculinity–and that is never going to happen.

    The color pink is not the real issue here. The real issue is the lack of masculinity among gay men, manifested in their unwillingness to defend themselves when called on to do so–which is the essence of masculinity in all cultures and in all places and always will be–in part because a society where men are unwilling to defend themselves–physically, if necessary–will fall victim very quickly to those that are willing to.

    It is all about self-respect….and until gay men develop such self-respect, they won’t get any respect from other men……and they will continue to be bullied as a consequence……

    It really is as simple as that, whether you like it or not.

  12. says

    My father wears his rainbow equality bracelet every day. he’s a straight man and a college professor.
    my brother-in-law wears his every day, and he’s a straight man living in a Welsh village.

    my straight friends have, and will again, worn shirts like this.

    why? because real men don’t worry about what trashy ignorant bigots think or say. only insecure cowards do. insecure cowards who complain about the color pink, anonymously, on an online gay-themed website.

    Rick himself isn’t even Out, as anyone who knows anything about the human condition will see. his specific type of comments are exclusively the domain of the resentful homosexual living with his balls firmly tucked away at the back of a too-cramped closet.

    maybe it’s a generation gap thing. the current young breed of new bloods don’t have the same terrified fear of being “odd” that Rick is still crippled by. kids are coming out at younger and younger ages, and non-gay kids are supporting their gay friends in equal measure.

    think about it- who’s the “real man”? the kid in the pink tee-shirt walking his high-school hallways proudly, or the grown man posting anonymous hatred about “effeminate boys” on a website?

    yeah. exactly.

    my straight brother in law and sister. they wear these shirts out in public. in Wales. real men don’t hide in order to cater to the bigotry of bullies – only wimps do that.

  13. says

    and, of course, the problem has nothing whatsoever to do with concepts of “masculinity” and everything to do with awareness of Cowardice.

    a gay man who joins anti-gay bigots in mocking and belittling men perceived as “effeminate” is proving himself to be a man without balls.

    a real man would say “You know what? that guy has every right to be exactly as he wants to be, and you guys are @ssholes for mocking him”

    that’s what a real man would say. the moment a gay man joins the anti-gay bullies in mocking those “femmes” he utterly proves what a coward he is, as he’s so terrified of being belittled himself that he’ll target someone else in self-defense. it’s literally the most pathetic and cowardly thing a man can do.

    for all his claims of how “masculine” he is, Rick is not Out. So, how then is his masculinity helping him? It’s certainly not empowered him to be a visible and vocal presence for LGBT Equality. He can’t even put a face to his apparently-masculine self and make a greater impact by standing up to be counted.

    so, what’s the deal? if you’re such a man why are you still Hiding?

    but there lies the issue between his, and other’s, galling “anti-femme” prejudice: they’re furious that the type of people they want to think of as “weaker” than themselves are actually stronger – after all, they’re not the ones living in fearful hiding.

    nobody is eradicating “masculinity” – many, however, are right to challenge what is being considered “masculine”. i can’t think of anything less masculine than anonymously complaining about “femme” guys online.

    what’s masculine about being a grown-adult male who’s still living in fear of ignorant anti-gay bigots?

    a guy wearing pink is no threat to anyone else’s masculinity. a guy choosing to remain closeted threatens his OWN masculinity. with every excuse given to remain in hiding.

  14. says

    He cleans up after himself.
    He cleans up the planet.
    He is a role model for young men.
    He is rigorously honest and fiercely optimistic.

    He holds himself accountable.
    He knows what he feels.
    He knows how to cry and he lets it go.
    He knows how to rage without hurting others.
    He knows how to fear and how to keep moving.
    He seeks self-mastery.

    He has let go of childish shame.
    He feels guilty when he’s done something wrong.
    He is kind to men, kind to women, kind to children.
    He teaches others how to be kind.
    He says he’s sorry.

    He stopped blaming women or his parents or men for his pain years ago.
    He stopped letting his defenses ruin his relationships.
    He stopped letting his penis run his life.
    He has enough self-respect to tell the truth.
    He creates intimacy and trust with his actions.
    He has men that he trusts and that he turns to for support.
    He knows how to roll with it.
    He knows how to make it happen.
    He is disciplined when he needs to be.
    He is flexible when he needs to be.
    He knows how to listen from the core of his being.

    He’s not afraid to get dirty.
    He’s ready to confront his own limitations.
    He has high expectations for himself and for those he connects with.
    He looks for ways to serve others.
    He knows he is an individual.
    He knows that we are all one.
    He knows he is an animal and a part of nature.
    He knows his spirit and his connection to something greater.

    He knows that the future generations are watching his actions.
    He builds communities where people are respected and valued.
    He takes responsibility for himself and is also willing to be his brother’s keeper.

    He knows his higher purpose.
    He loves with fierceness.
    He laughs with abandon, because he gets the joke.

    This is the Mature Masculine – the New Warrior – a re-definition of masculinity for the 21st century. By no means is this list complete. You are welcome to come and add your gifts to this community. –Boysen Hodgson http://www.mkp.org

  15. says

    For once, I’d love to see an article with absolutely NO COMMENTS from both Rick and Littlekiwi. They’re both on total opposite sides of most arguments. I get that. I just wish I didn’t have to see it every time. It’s so predictable and annoying.

  16. uffda says

    The photo shows Rick and PIWI in an alernate universe when they were friends. They’ve both been powerhouses from the get go, they both fall down, they both get up. Get back. They love to hate each other. It’s interesting.

  17. Daniel S says

    Hey, Rick, your misogyny is showing. As well as your misunderstanding of what self-respect truly is. Self-respect is not changing your mannerisms, thoughts, expressions, etc to conform to what other people expect of you. That to me is cowardice of the highest level. You don’t want people to accept you for who you are, whether that is feminine or masculine, you want to mold yourself to fit what is expected. If that works for you, so be it, but there are those of us who went through years of trying to fit in and conform. Honestly, I would rather walk down the street and be called any derogatory name than go back to trying to fit into a world that is always going to criticize me. And whose definition of masculine are we going to go by, because as far as I’m aware that definition is constantly changing.

    On another note, have you done ANY gender identity or expression studying in your life? Because it seems to me that you want everyone to fit into your little mold of heteronormative values and that just isn’t happening. Say goodbye to drag queens, pride parades, Broadway, Showtunes, florist, make up artists, etc. Because those some of those roles would HAVE to be filled by women since they aren’t masculine jobs. So basically every man is supposed to think and act the same, as well as every woman. Do you want the women to be barefoot and pregnant too? How far back in time do you want us to go? If you go back far enough we can even get to men wearing makeup and wigs, which was considered all the rage even if it isn’t what modern times would consider masculine.

    I’m tired of coming on here and reading the things from you that I despise about the ‘gay community.’ If you don’t fit into their little box, then you aren’t welcome. Rick, you are entitled to your opinions, you are entitled to express them, but you are not entitled to belittle, demean and harass those of us who do not fit into your little picture perfect world of how men should behave. Once you can give us a nice little concise list of all the masculine behaviors and traits that gay men should express to be accepted by the bigots, maybe then you may garner a little respect. Until that time why don’t you tone down on the homophobia and misogyny, it makes you look like a neanderthal.

  18. says

    I’ll suggest taking it one step further, Daniel S. We don’t need a list from Rick – we need a video wherein he puts a face to these characteristics he feels we all need to embody. After all, if he’s going to complain about a lack of “empowered masculine manly gay role models” what better way to make his point than by Being that example and showing the rest of us what a strong manly masculine gay male role model he actually is?

    i mean, it can’t be that hard. if a twink in pink can do it then why can’t a masculine manly gay man in a business suit?

  19. Rick says

    “Hey, Rick, your misogyny is showing.”

    So you are equating yourself with a girl/woman? If not, then why introduce a term that has to do with women, not men? Again, this underscores the ultimate source of the problem–gay men having internalized homophobia to the extent that they model their behavior on women…..which is why they become effeminate, which, in turn, is why they end up being disrespected by other men and therefore bullied .

    “Self-respect is not changing your mannerisms, thoughts, expressions, etc to conform to what other people expect of you. That to me is cowardice of the highest level.”

    Agreed. Which is why gay men should stop modeling their behavior on women rather than men–which is the expectation that society has of them and which is both unnatural and a source of cowardice. Instead, they should defiantly behave in a naturally masculine manner that puts the lie to the idea that homosexuality and masculinity are mutually exclusive.

    “You don’t want people to accept you for who you are, whether that is feminine or masculine, you want to mold yourself to fit what is expected.”

    No, that is what you are doing when you behave effeminately.

    “And whose definition of masculine are we going to go by, because as far as I’m aware that definition is constantly changing.”

    Not really. The basic expectation of men across cultures and across time is that they will have enough self-respect to defend themselves against aggression from other men. There are cultural variations on this basic concept, to be sure, but the concept itself is remarkably constant and pretty much universal among human beings.

    On another note, have you done ANY gender identity or expression studying in your life? Because it seems to me that you want everyone to fit into your little mold of heteronormative values

    Heterosexuality and masculinity have nothing inherently to do with each other any more than homosexuality and effeminacy do. What is their to “study” about gender identity? I am a man. Period. End of discussion.

    “So basically every man is supposed to think and act the same, as well as every woman”

    Absolutely not. Straight men are as incredibly diverse as gay men are, but they pretty much all still adhere to a core concept of masculinity….and this is true across cultures as much as it is true across individuals

    “Once you can give us a nice little concise list of all the masculine behaviors and traits that gay men should express to be accepted”

    Why should I have to? Masculinity comes naturally and most gay men already know exactly what it is because they almost all worship it…..right?

  20. Artie_FortLaud says

    @ Rick & Little Kiwi,

    After I read Rick’s post, I wondered whether there was any downside to pushing “born this way” as the only formula. If there is, we have to remind ourselves that there is freedom of choice for how you want to live your life because this is a democracy.

    Let’s say some young man who’s functionally straight tries a hetero marriage for a few years, but it doesn’t work out, and he wants to try a same-sex relationship. That is his right, whether he was “born that way” or not. This was a free country last time I checked.

    Having said that, no, Little Kiwi, you are quite right to say there is nothing sexually off-color about the color pink. Average American businessmen will wear pink office shirts in *most* regions of the United States.

    And now, Rick, that brings me to a rather delicate question. Which region, exactly, are you from? You know… If it’s Two Rivers, Alabama (population: 20,000), I want to know. Not to pick on Southerners, if your hometown is Planet Kolob, Utah, I want to know that too. I’ll start by adding “FortLaud” to my username to distinguish it from other posters.

  21. says

    It’s because of RICK that gays kids kill themselves.

    ANYONE who agrees with Rick on the issues of attacking feminine gays has blood on their hands of all those fem gays who killed themselves. You are a bacteria in society!

  22. Michael says

    Masculine gays who have a problem with fem gays are often the most evil people you will ever meet. They demand all gays represent their lives in the same way (as said masculine gay) They are some of the most miserable souls alive, and all you can do is pray for them.

  23. GregV says

    @Artie_Fortlund: My brother was born straight and I was born gay. I say that not because it justifies anything or scores some kind of points in a debate but because it is an observation I have been aware of since my earliest consciousness.
    If I were to rub a magic bottle and a genie showed up and I COULD choose to be straight or to have green eyes or to be left-handed or black or short-statured, those would all be fine choices, but that’s not the point of the simple observation that I’ve never had a choice in being something else.
    Your hypothetical guy would be bisexual if he can have equally fulfilling relationships either way.
    If he’s actually straight and he wants to have a relationship with a man he’s not in love with who doesn’t truly turn him on emotionally or physically, that’s okay with me if that’s what he really wants to do.
    Likewise, if he was born right-handed but he wants to spend an hour writing one word with his left hand, it doesn’t make him left-handed but it’s his life and if that’s fun for him to experiment with, it’s fine with me.

  24. Chris says

    All the trollery aside — anyone else having an impossible time checking out the H8SUX.com site? I’m getting one javascript error after another — and I have a decent computer that can handle just about anything.

  25. Rick says

    @ARTIE_FORTLAUD With all due respect, you and others are just trying to divert attention from the real issue.

    And that issue is not the color pink, nor is it where someone is from or has lived.

    The issue is plain and simple and every one of you understand it fully: Gay men–not all, but many–tend to be cowards who run from fights and back down from confrontations, especially when the confrontation is with a straight man–and that is why they are both disrespected and picked on by some straight men. They will often display such cowardice even in situations where they are physically superior to the guy who is harrassing them and perfectly physically capable of defending themselves–so their behavior is really psychological in nature and just a consequence of a lack of self-esteem.

    Cowardice in men is not respected anywhere on this planet, in any culture, including our own, nor is it ever going to be.

    Straight men who are cowards are also disrespected, so it is not really about sexual orientation, per se…..although cowardice is far less common among them than it is among straight men, the difference being that no straight guy who is a coward is going to try to blame it on his sexual orientation, like some gay men do.

    I get what some of you want. You want to claim that your cowardice is somehow a consequence of your sexual orientation (it isn’t) and you want to use that as an excuse to give you a pass on the consequences that all men face for being cowards. In short, you want to be respected by society despite being a coward. But that is never going to happen, anywhere……You might be tolerated by other men, but you will never be respected by them if you have no more self-respect than that…..and that is as true in Fort Lauderdale or San Francisco or Cambridge, Massachusetts as it is anywhere.

  26. Rick says

    The sentence in my next-to-last paragraph above should have read “although cowardice is far less common among them than it is among gay men” Just for the record.

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