Comments

  1. Mary says

    I wouldn’t make too much of this. Everyone gets a little tempermental now and then. Romney is calmer, yes. But he also has a gazillion dollars to spend on advertising and is the front runner. However, Santorum DOES have to watch his mouth and keep outbursts like this one to minimum. Otherwise his nickname may change from “Frothy” to “Frosty.” On other websites he’s already being called “Sanatarium”.

    What I can’t understand is why more people on the left aren’t talking about his admission that he had a bad porn habit when he was younger. I thought we’d get a ton of jokes asking what kind of porn he liked (I’m sure I know what the speculation will be!) and hearing him called the “wanker-in-chief”. Then there’d be the joke that he should pick Christine O’Donnell as his running mate so she could make sure he doesn’t go back to his old ways. Instead all we’re hearing is how he’s too tempermental to be president. BORING!!

  2. says

    more and more I’m agreeing with Santorum – there is indeed a massive Liberal Bias in the mainstream media.

    and by liberal bias i mean they’re biased in that they favor facts, logic, reason, precedent, empirical evidence and truth.

    as we’ve all seen from Santorum’s campaign, he prefers nonsensical hypothetical fear-mongering horror stories about Obama sending swarms of black crows to gobble up the white christian citizens of small towns.

  3. Paul B. says

    Go away Mary…you’re another dumb hetero who’s “support” I don’t need and don’t want.
    Oh,I just love the way the “main stream media” hands rick all that rope to hang himself with…and he does it so well. He just kept going and going until there was no rope…and no oxygen (in his lungs) left !!! Yeah.

  4. say what says

    sadly in 2 out of 3 recent polls for wisconsin (the next vote)

    santo is leading mittens by double digits

    the 3rd one was rasmussen which 99% of the time is always the outlier and false anyway so……

  5. Paul B. says

    In a twisted way I’m rooting for santorum. I keep getting images of Lucy in the chocolate factory as I picture santorum in a debate with Mr. Obama. He’ll be very enteraining, yes?

  6. says

    if you want to get a good idea of how many braindead bigots still walk around America, take a look at Santorum’s numbers.

    every vote for Santorum is a vote cast by a worthless scumbag that the rest of the country, frankly, will be happy to see die off.

  7. MarkUs says

    I read about this earlier. Ha ha. You know what that reporter is famous for before having Santorum yell at him? For standing up at a televised press conference and asking “President Obama, what enchants you about your office?”

    Remember when Nixon and Truman and Eisenhower and Clinton and FDR got asked “What enchants you about your office?”

    It is rather condescending, to almost treat Obama as a special needs child.

  8. says

    if you wanna see condescending, check out the way “fiscal conservatives” convince LGBT people that they’re not actually “against LGBT Equality” despite suppporting anti-Equality candidates.

    “sorry, honey. remember that we don’t hate gay people, and we *do* support you, we just want to vote for this man who doesnt’ because we don’t care about you as much as we care about money”

    THAT is condescending.

  9. Andre says

    Oh Rick, you’re exactly right: we all need to do something about a publication with over 100 Pulitzer prizes and get the real, unbiased truth from Fox News.

  10. BrianT says

    @OPHU Mary is a troll and claimed fan of Santorum. Please, everyone, ignore her.
    This video is perfect as Rick himself lies in order to claim that the liberal media is lying. Rick doesn’t seem to understand that in this age everything he says has been recorded and can be replayed to prove himself wrong. He perjures himself daily.

  11. Mary says

    OPHU, thank you. I’ve never said anything to insult Paul. If he doesn’t like my posts he’s always free to ignore them. But it’s interesting that he would reject my support – it’s not like I was inviting him over my house for a game of pool and a beer. You’d think that to combat homophobia he’d want the gay community to have all the support offered to it.

  12. Hollywood, CA says

    He sounds pretty fair to me on that topic. If they’re doing it just to get a rise out of him, that’s lame. You don’t need to twist his words, they’re miserable on their own.

  13. BrianT says

    I’m sorry but Mary I’ve been reading your posts for a long time and you keep saying that you will vote against gay marriage if you can so I’m not sure what support you think it is you’re offering my community. You have talked about supporting Rick Santorum, and you have said you’re against gay people marrying. No self respecting gay person wants the support of someone who doesn’t actually support us. You might as well be saying that you support black people’s right to not be slaves, just as long as they stay at the back of the bus and drink from separate drinking fountains.

  14. Paul B. says

    @OPHU…when pigs fly! Bryant is right, Mary is a troll. She’s looking for lub in all the wrong places…as Alfalfa would say. She needs to get busy with her own “junk”, find a man (or whatever!) and leave us alone…here and in the real world. We don’t want her help, her ignorant comments and surely not her beer. Chao Mary!

  15. Mary says

    Briant, thank you for at least being civil. Although I don’t mean to minimize the pain that homophobia has caused gay people, I’m like most Americans in not thinking that the gay rights cause is a close parallel of the cause of civil equality for blacks. However, even if it is, progress comes in stages. Yes, I oppose marriage equality. But unlike most conservatives I now support gays in the military and the right of gay couples to adopt children – both of which are recent policy changes for me. You have every right to wish I would support other gay causes as well. But it makes little sense to try to alienate someone who is becoming more sympathetic. I’m a visitor here and don’t pretend to to be “one of the family” (so to speak.)

  16. Paul B. says

    @Briant…sorry about the name spelling earlier.
    Oh, you are so right about Mary…or whatever his/her real name is. She’s a bad excuse for a friend and I’m not that desperate. Too bad she doesn’t have something better to do with her days…since she’s got nothing invested in this issue.

  17. Sarm says

    Doesn’t do well under pressure, does he? A perfect example of how weak-willed Christians are when confronted. Conservatives actually believe this worm is worthy of office? That makes them pathetic by extension.

  18. BrianT says

    Of course you don’t think they’re comparable Mary because you have no idea what it’s like to walk every day with a target on your back. Know what is comparable? Racial Bigotry and Anti-Gay Bigotry. Both are ugly and indefensible and are held only by weak people who need someone to feel better than.

    I’m not sure why you think anyone should feel honored that you’re not as bigoted today as you were yesterday because you’re still bigoted. Just like those who opposed slavery but also opposed true racial equality were still bigoted.
    What makes the parallel relevant is that it’s still a group of uninformed and prejudiced people who seem to think that they’re going to personally lose something if an historically targeted group attains equality. Not special stuff, just the same basic equality you have and take for granted every day.

    I just hope you’re not a parent because I think it would be sad for someone to have you for a mother.

  19. Mary says

    Again, Paul B, what’s wrong with simply ignorning my posts? I mean does someone hold a gun to your head and make you read them? When this site becomes “PaulBRoad” instead of Towleroad then you can order me off. And most of the advice I’ve given the community here is exactly the same advice given by Jonathan Rauch, who we know is not a conservative and certainly not a Rick Santorum supporter. So go ahead, use your First Amendment right to ignore me.

  20. Paul B. says

    Thank You again Briant…for saying it all so well. When ignorance is a choice people make, it’s hard to work with them. Mary, sad to say…is trying to work both sides of the fence and doing it poorly. She can’t understand the basic principal of bigotry and as a result is completely missing the point. I’m guessing it’s by her own ignorant choices because she can hear what we’re saying here and she isn’t getting educated. Like being gay…it must be in the DNA after all.

  21. Simon says

    @Mary…I didn’t get an answer to the question I asked you, i.e. in what way do your think the gay civil rights fight is “not a close parallel” to the black movement? It’s your equation…why not explain it?

  22. BrianT says

    I’ve been reading this site for a few years are rarely comment but it just seems like lately the trolls have been getting crazier and more and more desperate. It’s really weird.

    I’m not black but I am a Chinese American. Some of you might not remember that this country had the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. This country, like most countries, has a rather sordid history of targeting a few groups for oppression, and then when that oppression gets lessened to some degree our culture seems to forget why that oppression was wrong and does it all over again to some other group.
    I’m only twenty but I know enough about my country’s history to know it’s being repeated over and over again with different groups taking the heat.

  23. Mary says

    Great. Another person who is gloating that I don’t have children. Kiwi mean BrianT, BrianT meet Kiwi.

    And the amazing thing is that I didn’t say anything hostile here. In fact, I was poking fun at Santorum a bit. But it seems as if several people here are just in a mood to fight.

    And I’m not asking to be “honored” for having changed my opinion on several gay issues. I’m only explaining why I’m here and telling you that it isn’t good stratey to alienate people who are starting to become more sympathetic. Someone here seems to have the idea that I view Towleroad readers as my personal buddies and am “looking for love” here. This is the INTERNET, for heaven’s sake. We’re not socializing here. This is political and cultural discussion.

  24. Mary says

    Simon, I’ll answer you here. The situation of African-Americans in the U.S. is unique. Not every group that has experienced suffering can compare their situation to blacks because what blacks experienced was uniform across-the-board oppression – blacks of every different type, talent, economic and education level experienced it. Whereas with others, Hispanics, women, other white minorities the oppression varied depending on how they looked, what their religion was, and when the came to the U.S. The situation of the Chinese-Americans is probably the closest we have to what blacks experienced. It was intense and severe even by the standards of the 19th and early 20th centuries. The interment of Japanese-Americans during World War II is also a perfect example of the oppression non-white racial minorities experienced.

    As for gays, the reason most people would reject a direct comparision between gays and blacks is that while sexual orientation may be genetically determined, it is something that people don’t necessarily have to know about you. Many closeted people lived their whole lives without their true sexuality ever being known. Whereas race is something that is visible – people don’t have the option of changing it or lying about it the way they do behavior. This isn’t to say that it was fair to ask people to remain closeted – or that a life in the closet is a bowl of cherries. The point is that people could shield themselves from the worst oppression by remaining there.

    I’m giving a brief version of the argument to save time.

  25. Paul B. says

    As usual Mary…you’re missing the point. I’m not even going to waste time responding to your post except to say that now I know for sure that you’re a born & bred white hetero male/female. No perspective beyond your own white hetero world view except for what you can read about and imagine. If you really want to see things clearly, you’ll need a nice gay friend or two who will try to explain it to you.
    Frankly, you’re too much work for me.

  26. BrianT says

    Mary, that you don’t realize that it’s that “hiding”, that closet, that ends up destroying lives is truly astonishing.

    You are a truly lousy excuse for a human being. I understand why other commenters have a problem with you. You’re worth less than s**t.

  27. TJ says

    MARY – your comments above just reinforce my position. With friends lke you, who needs enemies? You give with one hand and take with the other. You talk about evolving and becoming an ally yet everything you say is followed with a qualifier, an asterisk, where you state reasons why people can’t be more accepting. And when called on it, you act disingenuously off put, not seeming to understand how deeply hurtful your positions are. And incredibly, you continue to posit that we benefit through courting people like you.

    I am reminded of the wisdom of Pee Wee Herman: Why does everyone have a big “but” – a big excuse? I’m tired of your big-ass “but” that gets in the way of your acceptance and understanding. Until you evolve, until you get tired of it, be gone, and don’t let the door hit your big but.

  28. antisaint says

    It does seem a bit to me like maybe instead of calling Mary a troll and just lambasting everything she says you guys could make an effort to help her understand the similarities. If she wasn’t trying to understand, she wouldn’t be here.

    People like Rick Santorum and Kirk Cameron come along and say things like “I have gay friends,” like it’s some justification of their opinion, or that it somehow validates their position — a position some might call ‘bigoted.’

    The main issue I take with the “Some of my best friends…” argument is that these people do not take the time to UNDERSTAND homosexuality. They know what they ‘know,’ and what they saw in the 70’s (and 80’s) they know what they see on TV, they probably don’t ask their “gay friends” any questions, they know what the Bible says, so they think they’ve “Got it.”

    Mary, on the other hand, seems to me to ACTUALLY be trying to “get it,” so maybe instead of attack, you could try having a civilized discussion on the matter. Just a thought.

  29. BrianT says

    TJ – she reminds me more of that classic Chris Rock sketch where he talks about people who want to take credit for things that other people just *do*.

    Mary seems to think we should be elated that despite her being a mediocre human being, there are a few areas where she’s almost a decently average one. “Well, at least I don’t advocate VIOLENCE against gays!” she seems to be saying.

    I’m not going to commend someone for having occasional moments of expected decency. That’s aiming way too low.

  30. BrianT says

    AntiSaint, rather than tell us what to do why not engage “Mary” in a dialogue and do it yourself?

    You’re here, you think it’d work, you do it. Just a thought.

  31. antisaint says

    Now, @ Mary – The historical treatment of black people in America is admittedly deplorable. It was centuries long, and some argue — especially with cases like Trayvon in Florida — that there are still ways to go yet.

    But the core of the civil rights movement itself was a fight for black people to be able to simply live their lives without having to worry about losing or sacrificing their integrity, their personhood, their freedom and their lives simply because of the color of their skin — we as a race want people to, as Dr. King said, “judge us by the content of our character” and not our physical appearance, a thing we can do nothing about.

    The immediate problem that we run into with the comparison between race and sexuality — as far as I’ve seen — is that so many people still do not understand that SEXUAL BEHAVIOUR does not dictate SEXUALITY. It is the other way around.

    There are plenty of gay men, some open, some not, who (for whatever reason) do not have sex with other men. Is their sexuality technically hetero because they don’t have sex with men? No. They are homosexual, we are homosexual, because we have an attraction to our same sex. It is not a choice that we make, and I do hope you understand that much.

    With that understanding, if you really do wish to understand, the clear similarities between the two civil rights movements should be apparent. It is not about who suffered the most or the longest, or which group was more “visible,” or able to hide. A homosexual may be able to hide their sexuality, but they do so at the cost of their intergrity, their personhood, their freedom, and sometimes their lives.

    When someone says to you “I’m gay,” or makes it apparent in some way that they are gay, they are not telling you what they do in the bedroom. They are telling you they have a same-sex attraction. If your mind wanders into that person’s bedroom, that’s on you. Nobody’s mentioning what happens in there — and let’s be real, there’s nothing happening in there that isn’t happening in the bedroom of heterosexuals across the country, so there’s no real news there.

    It’s a burden to spend a lifetime fielding questions about why you don’t date, turning down offers to date pretty girls, making up lies to justify your life, pretending to be interested in and attrated to people that you aren’t. Closeted gay men ultimately build a prison around themselves for the sake of appearances — but again, at severe personal cost.

    Shouldn’t a black man like myself be able to live his life the way he sees fit without worrying about being persecuted, denied rights, treated any different from anyone else on this planet, provided I don’t bring harm to anyone else?

    And why, then, shouldn’t a gay man like myself be able to live his life the way he sees fit without worrying about being persecuted denight rights, or treated any different from anyone else on this planet, provided I don’t bring harm to anyone else?

  32. TJ says

    ANTISAINT – I’ve actually defended MARY in the past. We have a long association, as do many who engage with her. I’ve just gotten to the point where I’ve tired of trying to win her over. As I stated above, she always has a big but that gets in the way. You are welcome to try. Just don’t expect to make any progress.

  33. says

    Briant, TJ, AntiSaint – here’s how it’s gonna go down, yo: Mary will read what antisaint wrote, and then fall back on her “but i still believe that if gays can marry then in the future men will choose male partners over female ones” nonsense.

    pearls before swine, my boys.

    incidentally, it’s nice to see you gettin’ all vocal today Briant. colour me impressed.

  34. Mary says

    And color ME unconvinced that Kiwi and “BrianT” are actually two different people. Sorry, my man. But your repertoire is too limited to fool me.

    AntiSaint, thank you for being kind. And no, I won’t repeat my “if gay marriage is legalized straight men will start to experiment and end up with men instead of women” argument. Sorry Kiwi/BrianT/SockPuppet.

    What I’d like to do is request that someone recommend a book or a scholarly study of areas where gay marriage or the equivalent has been legal for 15-20 years or longer. I’ve said in the past that we can’t prove that social change like gay marriage gives us just the good part (equality for gays) without the bad part (straight men starting to turn to each other for sex instead of to women.) If I could be convinced that we COULD get just the equality part then I’m on board with a full conversion. That’s right. A public apology on Towleroad, money to Freedom to Marry, membership in the Log Cabin Republicans, etc……the works. I don’t know if I could be convinced, but I’m willing to give it a serious try.

    TJ, if you haven’t fainted yet, you may want to reheat some of that camomile tea from yesterday …..something tells me you need it right about now!

  35. says

    hey Mary, you f***ing idiot, why not use your computer and do the work yourself and realize that gay couples have been marrying in other countries for decades and everything is just fine?

    the irony, however, that you call someone else a “sock puppet” is too priceless for words.

    you think that legalizing gay marriage will lead to straight men turning to other men, and not women, for lovers.

    you’re pathetic. now f**k off. nobody wants you here.

  36. TJ says

    You know MARY, I’m almost tempted to help (although KIWI makes an excellent point; if you do the work, your hard-won rewards would mean so much more – check out Google Scholar). I could go my university’s library site, look for studies on Psychinfo, EBSCOHOST, etc. but I’ve already done that work. I could talk about how marriage benefits individuals, which in turn, benefits society. Because I’ve already done the research. I could tell you how marriage would benefit gay parents and their children, because I earned my Master’s with my research into the literature on the effects of prejudice on stress and how that effects parenting and, consequently, children. But I’m tired.

    I’m tired of explaining. I’m tired of doing the work, and still getting the, “Well, this is what I believe, so you have to respect that.” Because I am faced with and must deal with the negative effects of the reluctance of people like you to do the work every day.

    I am innocent until proven guilty of the charge that if my partner and I marry, all hell break loose. It is up to you to prove this. I live in a state that recognized, then took away, my right to the pursuit of happiness. If you promised to read it, I’d post something I wrote the day after Prop 8 passed. I’ll check this thread to see your response. I wrote it to explain to a supportive straight friend who, after the election, tried to help me see the “other” side. I wrote it because I was tired of explaining. I wrote it because, even though she is a therapist, she couldn’t hear me when I told her that I was tired.

    This site provides ample evidence, daily, not only of the stressors gay people face, but also the ridiculous arguments against us. It provides ample evidence of the baseless nature of favoring belief over science. You come here often, as evidenced by your posts. Yet, you cling, to your arguments, your beliefs. You come here as a project, a past time, as intellectual and political discourse, not for friendship, and fail to grasp that for us, it’s personal.

  37. Adam says

    Well, luckily you guys won’t need this moron mary to support you in any way, there’s already a mayority of real allies in the straight American population, myself included. People with actual brains, not air. People with compassion. mary is vile, and certainly not someone I would ever call a friend. Ignore the lowlife bigot… (Although I love reading some of your replies. Pearls for pig indeed!) :)

    Keep up the fight. You WILL see true Equality under the law. Their war on gays is futile. Sad MF’s… 😉

  38. jack says

    I am a Pa resident who never voted for Mr Santorum and never will. Probably the happiest election night of my life was when Santorum lost his attempt at re-election to the Senate by over 700,000 votes. However, the hard left, who comment on this site, should know that he was defeated by Robert Casey a Pro-Life liberal democrat. Casey shows that when the democrats want to win in swing states it makes sense to run candidates who actually represent the views of the people in the state and not the left wing political establishment of the democratic party. Has anyone noticed that before Obama, the only democrats elected president since Kennedy were LBJ, Carter, and Clinton. All southerners. All centrists. We are basically a center right nation. When the democrats put up traditional liberals like: Humphrey, McGovern, Dukakis, Kerry, and Gore (all of whom I voted for) they lose. Obama is the exception. Don’t push him to far left or he may lose.

  39. John says

    @Mary, Have you been so close to the forest that you could not see the trees? How often do you see a couple, M/F, walking down the street, holding hands? And I am told not to throw my preference in a straight persons face? It is ok for a M/F couple to kiss in public, no I am not talking about kissing as in a tonsillectomy, a kiss on the lips, the cheek or wherever reasonable. Yet if I kiss my husband of 5 years, that is an insult to the straights? Let us assume you are right-handed, now tie that right hand at your side, even though you know it is tied, how often are you going to try to use it to do anything? My guess is that after ten years, you would still be trying to use it.

    You are concerned that if same sex marriage was legal, it eventually would translate into straight people going gay? Where is the logic in that? It may mean that people that are “sitting on the fence” may try it out, but that does not “TURN THEM GAY” it simply allows them to be who they are.

    I have often heard that I have the same rights as a straight person to marry. Wouldn’t that be interesting. Have you heard the horror stories of what that type of relationship produces? Would you, just assuming you are female, doesn’t really matter, like to be lied to for years to find out that your husband was cheating on you, not only cheating but with a male. People are devastated when their partner is exposed for cheating, leading to self doubts about their own abilities to please their partner, what could they do, or change to have their loved one back. Now apply that to you competing not with “another woman” but against another GENDER! How insecure that would make you! Do you want people to go through that type of reality?

    Marriage is good for society. It helps bring down STD’s,it promotes stability, it is healthier for the individuals mental state. There are so many reasons to promote marriage that it is ridiculous to oppose it!

    Please do not bring up the “GOD MADE ADAM AND EVE NOT ADAM AND STEVE” argument. That is SO easy to shoot down, or are you going to say that God is NOT the creator? When did God give up his sole ability to create? And if he did not give that ability to any other creature, then would you be saying that God made mistakes? And since Christ NEVER said anything about homosexuality, how much of an abomination is it really? It did not even make the TOP 10 LIST, 10 Commandments!

    I am referring to direct quotes from Christ, not from anyone else!

  40. jack says

    If you want to see what Mary looks like, just look up passive aggressive in the encyclopedia and there she is. If you want to see what Littlekiwi looks like just look up the words mean spirited and there he is. At the risk of being seen as against free speech, I suggest that we try our best to ignore both of them. There are many other folks; left, right and center who make very good observations on this site.

  41. Mary says

    All this indignation when all I did was ask for the names of some articles or the titles of a few books. Unbelievable.

    TJ, I can see that you just want to be angry with me. Because anyone could see that I wasn’t asking anyone to go and do extensive research for me. And I don’t consider you or your spouse “guilty” of anything for being gay or for being married.

    Andrew Sullivan contributed to a “pros and cons” book about gay marriage. I’ll start with that.

    Kiwi, sorry for upsetting you. I mean if I switched sides then we’d be allies and you’d actually have to (gulp!)….give me credit for “evolving!” Who would you insult then? I suppose Maggie and Brian would still be options, but they aren’t on Towleroad. I guess this shows that there IS some down side to progress!

  42. says

    “mary”, you keep proving me right. to you, this is a joke: “Haha, without me, who would you have to argue with? Haha!”

    to us, it’s our actual lives.

    go die in a car fire. you won’t be missed.

  43. TJ says

    No MARY, not angry. Dissappointed. To reduce what for me was a heart-felt statement to I just want to be angry is dismissive. To in no way acknowledge a right to be angry is insensitive.

    You didn’t ask that I post what I said I would if you asked. Telling. You must just want to be defensive.

    Okay. No soup for you. This kitchen is closed. Too bad for you. I’m a great cook.

  44. Mary says

    When did I say you had no right to be angry? I never denied that you had a right to your emotions, or that you’ve been victimized. I just questioned whether perpetual indigation was always the best political strategy, that’s all. Coming from the “anti-gay” people who don’t wish harm on gays I know something of what it would take to make them less hostile (i.e. hence, less likely to harm you in any direct or indirect way.) Wouldn’t this info be useful to you?

    OK, TJ. Post what you wrote. I’d be happy to read it. When did I say otherwise? I read Andrew Sullivan on a regular basis.
    I just thought that since this is, after all, a GAY website, there might be one really great book or article on the subject I asked about that you could recommend.

    Kiwi, I’m trying to protect your sorry ass from a homophobic attack one day. No I don’t claim to be noble, only mature enough to know that the kind of things you write here are putting you and other gay people in danger. But whatever you may wish on ME, I DON’T want to come on Towleroad one day and read your obituary. And that will be true no matter how much you gloat over my childlessness and wish me death.

  45. TJ says

    MARY wrote: “TJ, I can see that you just want to be angry with me. Because anyone could see that I wasn’t asking anyone to go and do extensive research for me. And I don’t consider you or your spouse “guilty” of anything for being gay or for being married.”

    Where in this response is an acknowledgement of a right to be angry?

    Could you be useful to me? Perhaps, if you didn’t keep posting on several threads how you can’t support same-sex marriage. Because until you do; until your Grinch-like heart can open up and see with your mind and soul how wrong it is to deny fellow human beings the right to fulfill their dreams and become the best they can be, I can’t see you as an ally. I can only see you as supportive, up to a point. And it’s a point beyond which much is lost.

    Again, this is not political discourse to me. This is personal. I am a real, fellow human being, even if I don’t have an URL that proves it (sorry KIWI, but that meme really is tired). I have few expectations that I will change your heart or mind. Nevertheless, and even though I don’t think you deserve any more discourse from me, I will post what I wrote the day after Prop 8 passed. Perhaps it will touch the heart of someone open to be touched:

    Do you know me?

    You may think of me as the person who dresses your hair and arranges your flowers. You may think of me as the woman who could never get a man. Although your perceptions limit me, and denigrate my contributions as ephemeral and deny my worth based upon your limited view of what matters, let me afford you the courtesy of a response.

    I am the person who bolsters your ego and sends you joy. I am the person who nurses you when you are ill and comforts your aged parent. I am the person who teaches and nurtures your children with integrity. I am the person who fights your fires and your crime and your wars. I am the person who does your taxes, checks you through security and your groceries through to your choice of paper or plastic, cooks and delivers your meals, entertains you when reality is too much to bear, and shares a beer with you and the end of a long day. I am the person who volunteers for our communities, our schools and universities, and our municipalities when I am not leading with vision and resolve. And I am the person who holds the figurative hand of your literally suicidal loved one and helps to make tomorrow possible. I am the person who cares, and does so deeply and with honor.

    I am a person who, like you, has hopes and aspirations. I, like you, have dreams of love desired and blessedly requited. I, like you, hope that the beauty of my soul transcends the vagaries and whims of fashion and standards of beauty based on the hide, and not the heart. I have expectations, like you, that my fulfillment will be supported, not stifled or denigrated, by the community in which I live.

    Today, can you look me in the eye?

  46. says

    What Mary the Dunce doesn’t realize is that what is putting LGBT people in danger is her brand of idiocy – insisting that Equality for LGBT People will mean ‘something negative for straights” is going to happen.

    That LGBT people pose a threat to society and the only way to save society is for LGBT People to continue to be marginalized and set aside as Second Class Citizens.

    Without anti-LGBT laws and policies, we gays will corrupt the world of the straights.

    Angry responses to an ongoing culture of anti-gay prejudice and bigotry are not putting LGBT People in danger. People who continue to stupidly “think” like Mary are the ones condoning a culture that puts us in danger.

    TJ – “she” is a lost cause. I’m ignoring her from now on. She’s not worth addressing. it’s clear she gets off on these interactions.

  47. says

    can you even imagine how Santorum’s great great grandchildren are gonna feel about his legacy?

    it’s gonna be a permanent digital trail of family bigotry. imagine the people of today being wholly aware of being descendant of white-supremacists, while amble video evidence to prove it.

  48. Mary says

    Kiwi, you know I find you fascinating. I enjoy your Youtube videos and will continue to occasionally visit your website. You’re a talented person with a lot to offer the world. I hope one day you get beyond this anger you have. You have the potential to be a true asset to any cause/organization you’re involved with. I wish you and your guy a happy life together.

  49. PAUL B. says

    I’m sure Mary has been a source of great entertainment for some of us and a thorn in the side of many. But..who or whatever he/she is only lives & breathes here because we provide the oxygen. If somehow we could all resist the urge to fan her fires, she would burn herself out and be gone from our lives.
    Without us…she’s nothing. I submit that we all stop addressing her posts…resist the urge to point out the obvious to her…and let her burn herself out… by herself. After all, I myself have a job and I’m sure many of us work for a living. Let’s put our time & energy where it can make a difference.

  50. PAUL B. says

    @KIWI…I’m your biggest fan…and not in the Kathy Bates…”Misery” kind of way. I’m going to hold you to the last TJ you posted. You’re done with Mary, and your time is worth something…even to me. Write a book…I’ll be watching.

  51. Mary says

    TJ, I think we may have both been misunderstanding each other. I never thought I had to explicitly state that you or any other LGBT person has a right to be angry at mistreatment. I thought this would be a given. And yes, it certainly is personal for you in a way that’s not personal for ME, but I was viewing Towleroad more as a public site for gay information, sort of a “public face of the gay community.” You seem to be viewing it, as you have every right to, as a private forum where gay people can share their experiences and receive validation from others. The first goal (representing the gay community to the general public) may occasionally clash with the second goal (serving as place for validation of individual gay people.) This may be causing some of the misunderstanding.

    I read your piece. It is well-written and in the vein of “I”m not some abstraction, I’m the person you see every day” literature. Not to knock this, but what I was after was something more specific regarding the effects of legal gay marriage on societies that have it. The more evidence there is that several DECADES of legal gay marriage has led to no change in society, the stronger the case becomes that opponents should admit their error and join the marriage equality cause.

    Whatever you think about my heart (and calling me “Grinch-like” seems childish) I’m here, aren’t I? I’m trying my best to find evidence that I should change my position. This is good news for your side, even if what I currently believe doesn’t make you want to jump up and down for joy.

    I guess I’m asking you to think as a member of a cause which we know will be long-term and require strategy. While you’re thinking more about what makes you feel validated right now. Both goals are fine. However, right now I can only help you with the first goal. I’ll understand if that’s not enough for you.

    Best wishes, and thanks for defending me on this board.

  52. DeeperStill says

    It’s not often I join these debates (Although I always follow them), since I’m not American. I’m Danish. And for what it’s worth I will say this; Denmark was the very first country in the world to legalize registered partnerships, back in 1989. It was no big deal for Danes then, and even though it’s taken us some time, we will finally be able to get a church wedding on June 15 this year. More than 70% of the priests here have said they will only be happy to wed gay people as well. As for the rest, well they wont have to if they don’t like it. All as it should be.

    My point is this; Don’t you (Mary) think signs of a society collapsing due to equality under the law for gay people, would have emerged by now in Denmark? Instead we continue to be one of the most free and prosperous nations on Earth. Year after year, after year.

    Then again… We don’t have many religious bigots here. In fact, we have very few (Thank God!). And when one of them occasionally show up in the media, the rest of us just laugh our asses off. Sane people see how pathetic they really are. Sad bunch, your kind…

    OK, I’ll butt out of this debate now. Not my fight as such. But I send my very best wishes to my brothers and sisters in the US. May you be victorious very soon.

    Until then: RAGE HARD!!! :)

    xXx

  53. Mary says

    Deeperstill, thank you for this post. I’ll ignore your nasty comment about “my kind” being a “sad bunch” and stick to the topic. I’m glad that the gays of Denmark are able to marry and that this change has not adversely affected Danish society. The questions for me now are: Do conservatives address the apparent success of gay marriage in Denmark? Are there reasons that might make Denmark the exception to the rule? Is 22 years enough to judge the effect of a policy change, when some segments of society don’t “aborb” the change for many years. The actual legality of gay relationships may matter less than the perception that marrying a sex partner is something acceptable to do – and this means we have yet to see the full effect of the change. But the success of gay marriage in Denmark works in FAVOR of the argument that gay marriage should be legalized.

    You’ve given me a starting point. And I’ll look into the issue of Denmark on my own. Again, thank you.

  54. antisaint says

    Mary, marriage equality isn’t about sex, it’s about legal rights. There’s no correlation. Leave the bedroom in the bedroom. Homosexuality is a same-sex attraction, nothing more, nothing less.

    I don’t understand how you can be pro gay adoption but not pro marriage equality. Do you realize the hoops gay couples have to jump through, sometimes repeatedly in some states for both parents to get legal rights to their children? Hoops that a married couple would not have to entertain, by the way.

    Legalizing gay marriage will only affect the couples who deserve their civil and legal rights, and have for decades, and have had to endure life without those rights despite meeting all of the requirements.

    Closeted homosexuals will feel more at ease about coming out, finding a mate they can truly be happy with, and making a family they don’t have to live in fear of hurting or destroying when the truth comes out.

  55. DeeperStill says

    I’ve tried posting a reply to you, Mary. But somehow it’s a no-show, even though it said “Your comment has been posted”. Not sure why this is? (If it’s just my browser, I apologize for posting it twice! lol.

    Anyway, that’s all I can say at this point then, I guess. :)

  56. Mary says

    What I meant in my last post was “marrying a same-sex partner,” not marrying “a sex partner.” Sorry for the typo.

    Yes, AntiSaint, there’s no doubt that legalized gay marriage makes the lives of gay people far easier and would be better for the children of gay couples. These are two main reasons why I’m trying to hard to find evidence that enables me to support it. However, they aren’t the only factor. What I need to be convinced of is that this change will not be disruptive to the rest of society over the long run. And unfortunately, that’s what’s harder to prove.

    But you’re right about gay people being closeted. I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to live a closeted life. It is truly insane the way straight people often say of gays “Why do they make such a big deal of their sexuality? Why do they have to bring up the subject all the time?” Keeping your sexuality hidden is relatively easy when you’re visiting Aunt Harriet in Toledo once a year. But what about the people who see you day in and day out? How do you lie year after year? Hide a partner? Explain why you aren’t married? I confess that it’s only recently that I came to fully appreciate this.

  57. DeeperStill says

    You’re welcome, Mary.

    Ignore all you want, I stand by it. (Calling it nasty is a bit rich coming from you, though.)

    There’s been civil debates across party lines all through the years here. But I think what sets us apart from the course of debates on this issue in the US, is exactly what I stated in my initial post; We, as a society, really don’t care about other peoples sexuality. There will always be some that do, sure. But mostly, nah…

    It could be, in part, because we are a small country at roughly 5.8 Million people. We all know someone who’s gay, or whatever. But I guess we just don’t see sex/love between consenting youngsters or adults, as something we have a say in, or as something “bad”. We believe in true personal freedom for everyone. Something you Americans rant about all the time, but somehow fail to practice. Very odd indeed…

    I might add that we were also the very first country to legalize pornography. So maybe we are just utterly depraved, what do I know? Still, I’ll take our version of doing things over yours any day :)

    As for all your other (Endless, it seems) questions, you’re on your own. I have little faith that engaging in a debate with you, will have any real effect. That, and also the fact that how you may, or may not support equality for all people in America, will have any impact in the end. Your kind (There I go again…. Sorry (Not))is a dying breed. Just a loud, pathetic group of people, craving attention on things that really should be of no concern to them at all. I don’t think you’re one of the worst we’ve seen. But you are still a bigot. And that is always ugly.

    Evolve all you want now, Mary. Or don’t. You’re priviliged like that. You must feel very happy, perhaps lucky, to be born a heterosexual. Gay people, on the other hand, somehow have to deal with your kind of BS, sticking your dirty nose (Dare I say nasty? Yes, I think I just did…) in other peoples business. The nerve of your kind is unbelievable. Nasty indeed.

    Goodbye.

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