Comments

  1. Rick says

    This is a good example of why Arabs hate Israel, the United States, and the West in general. The stated goal of this group is “gender diversity”…..which presumably was syptomized by the prominence of drag queens at their events:

    “And there were drag queens, dressed to the nines in high heels and short skirts, with bows in their very long, very straightened hair”

    The “gay” culture of the West is symbolized by a desire to destroy masculinity and turn men into subordinates to women……
    in other words, “gay” has come to mean not sexual freedom or the ability to bond emotionally with other men, but rather a hatred of men and all things male and a promotion of all things female.

    And Arabs respond accordingly–rejecting such a culture, even as bisexual activity remains widespread.

    It is not homosexuality that they regard as disgusting, it is the feminist-driven culture of “gay”–and the fact that this group goes to Israel to practice this culture will only reinforce their attitudes.

  2. says

    A “Queer Party” . . . the perfect destination for closet cases of any nationality! Palestinian Lesbians aren’t missing out on anything. Sometimes I think the slogan “Gay and Proud” should be changed to “Oppressed and Proud”.

  3. happyday says

    It’s a good thing that they have a place to party. Maybe not such a good thing is that their culture has forced them to equate being a gay male with dressing and acting as a female. We are seeing the same thing in Iran, where gay men are forced into sex changes to be able to live openly.

  4. Jeff NYC says

    Whose side are you on, Rick? Those who consider homosexuality disgusting–or the Arab kids who risk a lot to sneak into Israel and have a little fun in a safe haven?

  5. Rick says

    @Jeff NYC Did you read what I posted, Jeff? Arabs don’t consider homosexuality disgusting–bisexuality is rampant among them and I know this from direct experience. What they are disgusted by is the anti-male culture of “gay” which they rightly associate with the West.

    You know, one of the most profound experiences of my life has been that, in traveling throughout the supposedly homophobic Islamic world, I have observed how emotionally close men are to each other, spending almost all their time with each other and developing deep bonds of friendship that are almost unheard of among men in the West. AND how easy it is to find sex with men, with a much higher proportion being open to it than is the case in the West.

    And then I come home to the supposedly “enlightened” West and I observe all the social dysfunction of “gay” life, how unpleasant “gay” men often are to each other and how they tend to attach themselves emotionally to women rather than men….with other men (including each other) being sexually objectified.

    I think there is a happy medium between the two cultures, but what exists in the West now is absolutely not good.

  6. Brim says

    Rick, it’s like you say interesting things but mix them with all sorts of distorted ideas. When you say “The ‘gay’ culture of the West is symbolized by a desire to destroy masculinity” – that is an interesting idea and probably partially true, provided that we are talking about the concept of masculinity prevalent in modern culture that subjugates women and children under the patriarchal concept of property. Feminists talk about ‘dismantling’ masculinity frequently. But then you continue “and turn men into subordinates to women…” – and that is a claim that feminists do not make. Dismantling gender norms is for the purpose of equality. No one is supposed to subjugate anyone.

    You say “‘gay’ has come to mean not sexual freedom or the ability to bond emotionally with other men, but rather a hatred of men and all things male and a promotion of all things female.” Well that is ridiculous. If men are not subjugated to women, then there is no hatred. There is, however, the promotion of all things female – what is wrong with that?

    And that is why, Rick, some backward institutions in the Middle East hate Western culture. It really is about the subjugation of women under the concept of property. The foundations of Western Political philosophy, Mill (The Subjection of Women) and Locke (Two Treatises on Government), worked hard at demonstrating how and why that is in order to implement social reform.

  7. Rick says

    “But then you continue “and turn men into subordinates to women…” – and that is a claim that feminists do not make”

    Of course, they don’t, for the same reason that “Christians” say they don’t “hate” gay people, but “love” us. You try to make what you are doing sound noble by couching it in language that sounds nice, even though your motives are ugly.

    “Dismantling gender norms is for the purpose of equality. No one is supposed to subjugate anyone”

    No, they are for the purpose of empowering women–and they will take as much power as men will allow them to take. Of course, women, being inherently weaker than men, can only obtain power through social manipulation……ergo, the attempt to use the social and emotional dependence of men on them to their advantage.

    “You say “‘gay’ has come to mean not sexual freedom or the ability to bond emotionally with other men, but rather a hatred of men and all things male and a promotion of all things female.”

    No, most “gay” men really and truly hate men and value them only as sexual objects. It took me a long time to come to that realization, but it is true. They idolize women and live vicariously through them and that is what the whole “diva” phenomenon represents…..and if you look closely at their lives, you discover, as I did, that their closes friends tend to be women, too, while their relationships with men, to the extent that they exist at all, tend to be short-lived, with the very rare exception

    All in such sharp contrast to what I have observed in the Islamic world.

  8. Brim says

    No. When some Christians say they love gay people and we call it hate, it is by their actions that we judge them. On the contrary, there are no political movements whereby women are trying to subjugate men through the concept of property. That’s a big difference.

    Women are entitled to take as much power as they can. On what grounds should men deny them power? And at birth women and men seem equally helpless and rely on both parents in order to survive; women are not inferior. And men use their emotional and social dependence on other men to their advantage – that is not a trait inherent to women.

    You seem to, for some reason, think that objectification is bad. I suppose you abhor models and actors who are objectified on a constant basis? And I don’t see your point about men being friends with women at all; and it just seems so anecdotal. I think I have two female friends and all the rest are men (mostly straight). But I don’t form conspiracy theories out of such data.

    And ya, Western attitudes are in sharp contrast to Islamic ones. That’s kind of my point. Women suffer under horrible legal oppression in those countries. I lived for a while with a young woman from Iran. She dd not have pleasant things to say about the current regime.

  9. ratbastard says

    Arab culture in general is light years behind western Europe, North America, Australia/N.Z. Woman are strictly second class citizens, to the point any contact aside from marriage is condemned, females are considered ‘unclean’, and boys and men engage in widespread same-sex activity that is still also strongly condemned [grounds for execution in many places]. If the guy is a ‘top’, he’s not gay, even if he rapes boys. It is what it is.

    I’m anti-Zionist. I think Zionism is a genuine form of racism, and I think many Zionist are little more than fascist. That said, Israel is a damn site better civil rights and human rights wise than it’s neighbors.

  10. Rick says

    @BRIM Just listen to yourself. Demonstrating everything I just said about “gay” men in the West. Obsessed with women, on every level. Arguing for empowering women at the expense of men. And defending objectification of men, but not of women. No identification or sense of shared destiny with other men at all.

    The West is in decline, largely due to its adherence to feminist values. Another two generations of birth rates of the sort we have seen in Western Europe–low birth rates for European women who place “empowerment” above children….and high birth rates for Muslim women–and you will see an Islamic majority in the West, which will have destroyed itself through its own internal social sickness, without the mullahs ever having had to engage in “jihad”–and it will have deserved its fate

  11. RyanInSacto says

    Brim, while I, and undoubtedly other readers, appreciate your thoughtful comments (I thought I was the only one that refers to Locke or Mill on this blog!), they are really more than Rick deserves. He’s not here to discuss. He’s only here to post the same hateful, ignorant, dead-end things that he always posts about women and any gay man that does not fulfill his personal vision of what every gay man should be. You can post thoughtful responses to his nonsense until the cows come home but you will not get anywhere with him. Sooner or later, we all reach this same conclusion.

  12. ratbastard says

    @BRIM,

    ‘And men use their emotional and social dependence on other men to their advantage – that is not a trait inherent to women.’

    ….??? Bizarre comment.

    ‘Women are entitled to take as much power as they can. On what grounds should men deny them power?’

    ….And therefore men and boys are entitled to take as much power as they can? On what grounds should women and girls deny them power?

    ‘On the contrary, there are no political movements whereby women are trying to subjugate men…’

    …..Political Correctness and the ‘radical’ feminist movement is ALL ABOUT ‘subjugating’ males, men and boys. And it’s been pretty successful at least as far as the ‘boy’ part over the past 40 years. Boys as a gender are clearly by any measure taken ‘subjugated’ and disadvantaged compared to girls in our society and other P.C. western societies.

  13. ratbastard says

    I’m curious, and checked the traffic statistics, etc., of TR and discovered [assuming they’re reasonably accurate] that MANY females visit this site. Which is of course fine. But how many posters are female [lesbian, bi, whatever] vs male [gay,bi, whatever]? How many fall into the ‘radical’ feminist lesbian camp? It would help to explain many posts.

  14. Brim says

    Well just listen to yourself, Rick. You give the appearance of supporting institutions that enslave half the human race. And it is not at the expense of men that women are empowered; it strengthens societies. Mill actually makes an economic argument that appeals to free market capitalism – if competition breeds strength and we want the best person for the job, then by doubling the workforce you increase the odds of finding the best person for the job.

    And I defend the objectification of myself, women and men equally so long as it is not exploitation.

    We will only see Islamic societies if we give up our political principles. There is nothing wrong with Christians, gays, Jews, Muslims or Atheists being involved in politics. There is something wrong with allowing some groups to trample the rights of others. Islam and secularism seem to be at odds sometimes. Muslims who enjoy the benefits of secular government are not a problem.

  15. Felix says

    @BRIM,

    Are you new to this site? “Rick” is an automated application that gives mysoginist, racist, homophobic and transphobic responses to everything. Its like malware or spam!

  16. Paul Keckonen says

    I looked at the albeit very short clip twice just to be sure…”prominence” of drag queens is more than an exaggeration, in fact I couldn’t see even one drag queen. But then for some of our resident macho men even one queen, in drag or out, is one too many.

  17. Brim says

    @FELIX lol ya, I’m relatively new.

    @RATBASTARD I happen to be a gay male. I also think that you cannot have a homosexual revolution without a sexual revolution.

    One point Rick was making is that women gain access to power through social manipulation. My point was that men have the same access to that power. Ever get hired at a place because of who your uncle knows? Well, that is manipulating a social relationship to your advantage. Ever used sex in business? Ever flirted to get your way with a straight woman? That’s social and emotional manipulation and men do it all the time.

    Everybody is entitled to the same set of rights. It is primarily women and children who had all rights stripped away (historically speaking). So yes, men and boys are entitled to the same sets of rights though men don’t actually have to take BACK legal powers.

    Your comment about men and boys being subjugated – I am not sure what you mean by that. In what way are men subjugated by women?

  18. Rick says

    “I also think that you cannot have a homosexual revolution without a sexual revolution”

    Depends on what you mean by “sexual revolution”. If you are referring to the loosening of sexual mores in general, as occurred in the 1960’s, then you may be right. If you are referring to feminism, I think you are dead wrong.

    Feminism arose in the West, while it has failed to gain acceptance elsewhere in the world, largely because of a male culture that pushed men to distance themselves emotionally from other men and devote themselves instead to women via “romantic love”–an idea that is distinctly Western. So you see the roots of “romantic love” and homophobia are one and the same.

    And feminists manipulated this homophobic male culture to their advantage, as it gave them leverage that they could use to enhance their power in other areas.

    None of this benefited gay men (for want of a better term) one iota–indeed, it is only in the last decade that any real progress in eradicating homophobia has been made….and I believe that is due largely to the realization by men in general that a homophobic male culture has put them at a power disadvantage vis-a-vis women…..and this is why most of the real leadership on gay rights has come not from women, but from “straight” men of late.

    Ironically, the “gay” culture of effeminacy, with its idolization of women and general contempt for men, is at odds with this larger movement among men, rather than being in sync with it…..but I think it will be rendered irrelevant by large-scale changes that will obliterate it and obviate its causes. I certainly hope so.

  19. Brim says

    By ‘sexual revolution’ I mean the legal and social equality of women – feminism, yes. Women must have rights over production and reproduction, and that only comes about through legal and social equality.

    So marriage, a legal institution in which men owned women, was converted into a social institution. Instead of the father’s permission for marriage, you needed the woman’s permission for marriage (and the giving away of the bride became symbolic). But prohibitions against male-male sex run back much farther that the late 18th century when romantic love was “invented”.

    Instead of homophobia and romantic love sharing the same roots, I would advocate for the view that homophobia and misogyny share the same root. Sodomy laws, for example, were formed on the notion that sex has a teleological function. In early modern Christian thought, sex was for the purpose of having kids; so oral sex, anal sex, pulling out, masturbation, etc. all become against the law. And homosexuality is obviously against any “natural law”.

    It was forbidden before romantic love, Rick. And the reason why is because men owned – OWNED – the rights to production and reproduction since they owned their wives. And that system was rooted in blatant misogyny.

  20. David Hearn says

    The format of Towleroad really sucks. It’s really not worth the effort. It’s not like there aren’t functional news sites out there to model.

  21. says

    As a Jew, I am so proud of Israel… it’s not perfect and neither is America. And when you try to mix politics or religion into the equation there seems to be no middle ground. There have been those who try to bring their stupid reasons into gay forums here and Canada like gay Pride Parades… and it is a thinly disguised anti-Semitic B.S.!

    This article brings hope in the future for gay Palestinians & Israelis. Shalom and Peace and understanding is progress in this area of the world.

  22. UFFDA says

    Yes, it really is an interesting discussion. Just wish that once and a while (instead of never) someone would say, “you know I hadn’t thought of that. I think you’re right. Pardon me while I adjust myself.”
    But it’s all men (nearly) and men learn it from their fathers (and films) never admit you’re wrong, go right over the edge holding each other by the throat.

  23. Ambrose says

    Rick, you’re an idiot. We’re supposed to feel comforted that Palestinians are not anti-gay, according to you, but “just” anti-women and anti-femininity?

    If this article accurately reflects common Palestinian attitudes toward gays and women, then I frankly find it hard to see how their lot would be improved under a Palestinian authority. They’d be wise and lucky to immigrate to Israel.

    And I say that as someone sympathetic to Palestinians’ quest for self-rule.

  24. Rick B says

    All I can say is that I wish Rick did not share a name with me.

    After reading a few of his comments, I am certain that he is a GOProud member who would prefer an anti-gay Republican to a Blue-Dog Democrat in any election, even though their policies on economics are similar.

    That said, I have to take exception to the idea the “Political Correctness” is anything at all. The idea of political correctness was and is about false politics. It was and is about spouting what people want to hear, whether or not you are agree with it. Political correctness is when you are forced or feel forced to say or do specific things that you do not believe in because of the community in which you live, or political office that you are trying to obtain. In the Republican primaries, anti-gay Conservatism is part of the politically correct speech that helps you win.

    By the way, as a radical feminist who is a man, I fully believe in everything that feminism believes in. In our society, women can be equally as capable of leading a country, running a company, leading the military, plumbing a building, running electricity and any number of other jobs that are considered men’s work. Additionally, men can be equally capable of raising children, teaching pre-school, running a household, cleaning the laundry, and any other jobs that are often considered women’s work. Both men and women are also equally capable of being a**holes who need to be shut out from polite society either due to breaking the law, or just being downright despicable people. All radical feminism wants is for women and men to have the same chance to succeed at the things each individual wishes to pursue, and that they should get the same remuneration for their work. A recent study was done that showed women from the same business program at a certain university start out at the same pay grade but after 10 years the women are paid 40 – 50% less than their male counterparts mostly because there are social networks they still cannot join which allow for greater advancement.

    Radical feminism is still needed, just as radical gay politics is still needed to show how deeply misogyny and homophobia are still ingrained into this society.

  25. Gary says

    Do any of you realize that one group or culture does not represent every other group of subculture? Your arguments fall short the moment you start generalizing and clumping everyone together. Some gay people are femine and some probably have anti-masculine sentiments. But that exist in subsets of culture everywhere. Many gay men are masculine and many anti-feminine which is just as bad. And then there are healthier subsets of gay, straight, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered folks. But each group falls into each category. And that means something slightly different in different parts of the world. I think you are correct, culturally there is a problem that echoes from culture to culture. And that is a lack of respect, understanding, education, and a sense of brotherhood. We should be sharing our passion, culture, and humanity and not fighting over it.

  26. Lamia says

    Rick’s comments are grotesque. He resorts to the foulest misogyny in order to evade the unpleasant admission to himself that the oppression, persecution, use of violence against, torture, imprisonment and execution of gay men in the world, and especially in the Middle East, is overwhlemingly the doing of straight men not the women Rick so poisonously scapegoats.

    Keep telling yourself those straight guys, not those horrible women, are the ones on your side, Rick, and that they don’t actually want to kill you. That fool Vito Arrogoni told himself something similar.