Comments

  1. says

    well done, actually. and he’s right. the “artificial paragon(s) of masculinity” are a legit threat to insecure people.

    insecure gay-hating straight men don’t want to think that there are “gays” in their ranks, be it football or the military.

    they didn’t like the idea that a woman could be useful in combat, either.

    these are the wimps who need to think that gay men are afraid of them. and as long as the gay men in pro-sports refuse to come out, they’re sort of proving them right.

    football and the military – rough n’tumble and all that jazz. and they’re afraid that this thing they feel defines them and defines masculinity will be “compromised” by gay people. which makes no sense.

    he also touches on something i’ve always been puzzled by with pro-sports – team pride in cities. cheering on “the home team” when there’s no one from the home town on the team. i’ve never understood that.

  2. Rick says

    “the NFL and its “artifical paragon of masculinity” that won’t provide an environment in which a player can comfortably come out of the closet.”

    That’s not what he said.

    Regardless, it was an incoherent ramble that was not really worth the 8 minutes required to listen to it.

    Men are changing; the male culture is changing. The timeless standards of masculinity will remain intact, as they should, but they will be altered so that sexual orientation, per se, in no longer regarded as a marker of masculinity.

    And it should not be, as many men who have engaged in sex with other men have demonstrated the same embrace of masculine values that heterosexual men have–and have succeded in masculine pursuits, both historical figures like Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar and contemporary figures like the athletes and soldiers who have come out.

    We are in a process of change and change takes time–even 20 years ago, NFL officials and players would not even have been willing to discuss this issue.

    Gay men who embrace masculine values will increasingly find acceptance, just as “straight” men will find that the willingness to drop heterosexuality or emotional attachment to women as criteria for masculinity frees them and makes their lives better rather than worse.

    On the other hand, gay men who continue to idolize women in preference to men and embrace the culture of effeminacy that is the expression of that mindset will continue to be outcasts, as they should be.

  3. Fenrox says

    Way to go kiwi, way to stay at rick’s level.

    This (hot) guy is a teaparty nutjob. As always from these kinds of rants, they are done bombastically with little factual information and lots of emotionally dyed talking points. Great for if you want to reinforce a similar emotionally tainted belief, bad for thoughtful discussion. But hey, it’s a radio show.

    Oddly I agree with some of what rick said, peoples, they are a changin.

  4. Lucas says

    Rick, why should effeminate men be outcasts? I’m just curious as to the root of your disdain for anything feminine? Fear, I’m guessing.. And insecurity.. what threat do feminine men pose? If you are simply annoyed by effeminate men, then I can understand that. Queeny boys annoy me too but I hold nothing against them, I simply don’t hang around them… You should really see a therapist to deal with your issues, you’ll be infinitely happier I promise!

  5. The Other Lucas says

    It’s Pride Month, Rick, why are you acting all ashamed of your fellow gays??

    Also, Lucas #1, I wasn’t trying to copy your initial comment or your name…I didn’t even see your post until after I’d submitted mine, and you beat me to the punch by 3 minutes!

    Masculinity in gay culture is kind of an interesting subject though, but its probably full of landmines due to our own internal biases and issues in my opinion.

    Ah well. I made it through all…however many minutes of Adam Kokesh’s video. He makes interesting points… yadda yadda. :)

  6. The Other Lucas says

    And one more thing on Pride and “effiminate men”. Wasn’t it a bunch of drag queens who started the Stonewall riot, which kickstarted Pride festivals?? Those girly-men fought the police for your rights, dude. You should be honoring them.

  7. Jay says

    interesting view on masculinity…happen to agree with him, and esp about the rugby…the gay community certainly has issues with what it means to be a man, not just the straights: read any post here and note the vicious war between the fems and the butch; we can be our own worst enemies. Thanks, Adam.

  8. Keith says

    @Rick

    What confuses me about your argument is that you treat masculinity as “timeless” and yet talk about how things are changing. Your argument is just as convoluted. Allowance that sexual orientation needs to be untangled from masculinity (or femininity for that matter) is part of a broader decoupling of assumed idealized roles and behaviours. This isn’t for the sake of destruction, but like you said to free us all and to our benefit. The ideals aren’t terrible by themselves, though they are when carried to an extreme.

    Standards of sexuality, gender, and masculinity/femininity change; the values of historical cultures and extreme subcultures are not things we all need to adhere to. Perceiving someone else as “effeminate” doesn’t make them weak or subject to judgement.

    Adam’s point seems to be that the artifice of masculinity is tied to the people that believe it and the structures in place that glorify it. Seeing the humanity in people like yourself is easy, seeing it in someone that isn’t can be too.

  9. michaelofthegreen says

    God… the “debate” about masculinity, homosexuality, effeminacy, “gay minstrels”, and the impulse to homogenize a gay identity reaches its absolute most tedious pinnacle on the comment threads of towleroad. What a shame.

  10. says

    Yeah..MANY gay men are feme, and MANY gay men are masculine. This idea that femme men need to be treated differently is ridiculous, vile and truly homophobic. No gay person demand equality for being different can then turn and cast a stone on a feminine gay man for being different as well. Diversity means that and it includes the butch lesbian minding their own business, and the fem gay living his life. Don’t like it? tough.

  11. Steve-ATL says

    Let’s just tackle the elephant in the room. Gay men with an unhealthy obsession with masculinity are usually battling Daddy issues. I’ve been in the community for over 30 years. The men who have to belittle fem gays are battling some internal scar they haven’t yet addressed, and when you sit down and actually talk to them, it almost always relates back to their father or lack thereof. Enough with brushing their egos. Masculine gay men who belittle fem acting gays sure don’t mind hurting feelings themselves. Time to call them what they are.

  12. Martin says

    My favorite is the term “str8 acting”

    Really? You’re “straight acting”? If you’re so straight acting why the HELL are you not pounding p*ssy? A truly straight acting man wouldn’t be on a gay oriented website (like male for male on craigslist or Adam 4 adam) announcing how “straight ACTING” he is. Emphasis on ACTING.

  13. Straightwithgaybro says

    The fixation on masculinity some gay men have is a fascinating one, but often frustrating. You have a block of people who demand to be treated fairly for not having a standard behavior (in that they are gay) and demand heterosexuals treat them with kindness and respect for being against the standard (which is being straight). But then some within the same demographic have no issues taunting, slamming and bashing others who are different due to innate mannerisms. As another poster said above, preaching for equality and demanding respect all while you go and attack others for being different (butch lesbians or fem gays) is a counter productive message. You either ARE for people being true to who they are and fulfilling their happiness, or you yourself don’t deserve the respect from mass society for being gay that you so eagerly demand. Just a thought.

  14. Steve-ATL says

    With 7 billion people on this planet, there are bound to people who act and behave and walk and talk in allll sorts of manners. Be it shy, feminine, masculine, loud, timid, confident…it’s part of the diversity with human nature and Thank Goodness for that. No two people were created the same. The idea that everyone has to act one way is ridiculous and clearly out dated. If you can’t handle a world where a man may be feminine and comfortable with who he is, and a women may be more masculine and comfortable with who she is, then it’s going to be a very miserable existence for you. Might wanna work that out.

  15. USC Trojan Fan says

    TRULY masculine gay men don’t care if another gay man is fem.

    TRULY masculine gay men don’t introduce themselves as masculine, with a header reading “I’m MASCULINE!!!”

    TRULY masculine gay men comfortable in their skin don’t feel threatened nor insecure by the presence of someone who doesn’t act exactly as they do.

    If you were truly masculine, you wouldn’t feel uncomfortable with the presence or seeing a less masculine gay men. Just as if you were truly straight, you wouldn’t feel threatened by the presence of a gay person around you. It’s those who are playing a ROLE who don’t feel secure in their own act to be around those that are different than them.

    Signed,
    A guy who is considered masculine, but I highly consider that something to be proud of or throw out there with a disclaimer, all while denouncing non masculine gays.

  16. James Vargas says

    Who cares if someone IS effiminate? I mean what type of person gets frustrated and resentful toward another human being based on them being effiminate or how they enter a room? What a shallow, petty, vapid, and ignorant thought process. I mean if your way of thinking is that EVERY man has to act the way you please “or else..” well then relocate to Iran. You’d not only be welcomed, but find a government that is very like minded and actually punishes men brutally for not acting in a masculine manner. By all means, relocate and time travel to the stone ages.

  17. Real Talk says

    SOME masculine gay men feel the entire gay community is reflective of them and they demand all gays represent them, and their comfort levels. They use the argument of how we’re seen in society and by heterosexuals, as if our only purpose for existence as gays is to constantly be winning them hetros over by role modeling “perfect” behavior which leads to essentially role playing. Instead of said masculine gay men living their lives, and showcasing what traits they want people to see of them, they usually forcefully request ALL gays act like they wish. There’s not enough ways to describe how flawed, irrational, and unhealthy that mentality is, not to mention self revolved. If you were really content with who you are, you wouldn’t need others to change themselves to feel validated.

  18. DannyEastVillage says

    @ Rick–you just can’t stop your hatred of gay men, can you? Every time you post it seems you have to trash the feminine. Some men are–feminine. You need to get OVER it. All you’re doing is perpetuating the cultural hatreds that have kept gay men under the heel of the majority for so long. “Embrace masculine values.” Christ–wtf does THAT mean? You’re nothing but an all-too-typical misogynist–and self-hating gay man. Just pathetic. But even worse would be having to live in that cesspool of hate that is your mind–and “heart”–if you have one. You have so much to learn–so much, in fact, that even if you were five years old I’m quite sure you’d die long before you were done.

  19. Scott Landores says

    As a gay man who is labeled masculine, every gay dude who I met who went off on how masculine he was was in actuality extremely effiminate to everyone around him but himself. it’s sad. especially when you get these so called ‘straight acting’ gay dudes behind closed doors. They’ll be the biggest girly bottoms, and it just proves it was all an act because they are so insecure and scared to face society being who they truly are. I mean, if you’re really rich, you don’t scream it every second off the top of a mountain. And if you’re really masculine and gay, you don’t need to knock fem gays down or announce your masculinity. It’s a complex that some gay guys can’t address within themselves cuz they gotta unlayer a lot of issues.

  20. Rick says

    Thanks to all of you for weighing in with the same, tired, old pseudo-feminist BS that you have been taught by women to recite, proving once again how far so many gay men still have to go in terms of getting their heads out of women’s a$$es and deciding to be men, instead. When you do decide to do so, back to my original point, then straight men will accept you.

    Nobody “announced” their masculinity; neither did I. Nor is any straight man or masculine gay man “threatened” by effeminacy. (Why would they be?) Nor do the 98% of men the world over who behave in a normal masculine banner have “Daddy” issues. (Effeminate gay men, by contrast, generally do, which is part of why they are effeminate in the first place). Nor is masculinity a “role”–it is simply the way men naturally are and have been the world over since the dawn of our species. But thanks, too, for all the armchair psychology BS that complements the feminist BS so perfectly.

    The issue you all don’t want to face, of course, is that effeminate behavior is a choice and an artifice and is nothing more than a reflection of the low self-esteem of the gay men who have agreed to surrender their natural masculinity in adherence to the societal idea they have internalized, namely that homosexuality and masculinity are incompatible. They idolize women and attempt to mimic women’s behavior as a way of demonstrating that they believe in their own inferiority and lack of a claim to masculinity. Why else would they?

    Effeminate behavior is entirely learned and deliberate and a reflection not of nature, but of psychological damage. It is artificial and its artificiality is obvious to anyone observing it.

    So good luck to you in addressing your issues; if you decide you want to be men, other men will accept you; if you decide you want to continue to be pseudo-women, then they will not.

    I have made my choice and you can make yours.

    But I harbor no illusions about how long it is going to take for gay men who have been denied a masculine identity for so long by society to make the transition to thinking of themselves as men the way straight men do….and to wean themselves from their habit of taking their behavioral and ideological cues from women instead of men, which is, of course, a consequence of the denial of a masculine identity.

    Straight men are leaving the past behind and it is time that gay men did too; ironically, just as they are holding out a hand of acceptance, some of you, instead of grasping it, are clinging to your oppression and the mindset that is the result of that oppression.

    If you refuse to change, then you will blow an historic opportunity that may never come again.

    Your choice.

  21. Rick says

    And let me add just one final point. What makes the points-of-view expressed by some of you so totally laughable is that gay men, themselves–yes that is you I am addressing–are obsessed with masculinity when it comes to how sexually attractive they regard other men as being. You all know that this is true. Anybody who denies it is just being dishonest, as even the most cursory glance at gay classifieds will demonstrate (even if all of our own daily experience did not confirm this, which, of course, it does and which even several academic studies have proven). “No fems”, “Masc only”, in ad after ad after ad.

    So if you, yourselves, strongly prefer masculine men to effeminate men–as virtually all gay men do–then you are contradicting your own stated ideology by doing so. After all, if being “fem” is no big deal to you, then why would you make such a big deal out of it when it comes to sexual attraction?

    You see, you all recognize what masculinity is–in fact, you have a very acute sense of the finest distinctions of it–and those distinctions matter a great deal to you, perhaps moreso than they do to straight men, even. They drive your attraction to other men, more than any other factor.

    So you cannot escape the truth about yourselves as revealed by your own behavior, regardless of how much you exert yourselves by trying to create ideological sandcastles that will cover it up.

  22. MaddM@ says

    Interesting take on pro sports being like mini-nationalism, I always saw it as more of a basic bread-and-circuses thing. As boring as I think they are sometimes I’m happy they exist so there is a focus for people’s tribalism so it won’t be channeled in to lynchings or anything. It is also just a big bunch of man-drag as well.

    And yeah…. he is superfine, not just for his looks but for pointing that out.

  23. DiCKster says

    Well Rick, you’ve finally said something with which many of us can agree:

    “You see, you all recognize what masculinity is–in fact, you have a very acute sense of the finest distinctions of it–and those distinctions matter a great deal to you, perhaps moreso than they do to straight men, even. They drive your attraction to other men, more than any other factor.”

    As with many gay men, I’m attracted to masculine men — Were I was attracted to fems, I’d have sex with women.

    [As an aside, I’ve always been puzzled by the idea of two fems hooking up — whats the attraction? (assuming fems hook up with each other)]

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