On The Relationship Between ‘Masculine’ Gay Men, Exclusion And Pro-Trans Activism

GayClones

There's no question that there's a cult of masculinity among many gay men, one that encourages us to hit the gym, flex our muscles and "fit in" with a larger male culture that wants us to be Superman, instead of super slim. But does that culture also impact our politics?

Activist Richard Lyon seems to think so. From his most recent piece at Huffington Post:

From an effort to counter the notion that all gay men are effeminate, they have moved toward the position that all gay men should present an image of red-blooded American masculinity. The drive toward becoming respectable leaves no room for the presence of gay men who are less than fully and thoroughly butch.
….
We see a good bit of political conflict about the inclusion of the transgender community under the LGBT/queer tent. Self-declared gay pundits like Dan Savage and John Aravosis have, on repeated occasions, questioned the desirability of a close alliance between the two groups. To my mind it is not just a clear-cut issue of trans vs. gay. There seems to be a notion that the all-new and improved gay image will be devalued by association with anyone who doesn't conform to the masculinity specification. This includes gay men who fail to measure up on the butch index.

Questions? Comments? Critique?

Comments

  1. Turbohand says

    Homophobia is so intertwined with societal gender norms that it is almost impossible to separate them.

    Honestly, if we addressed the issue of gender norms first, the issue of homosexuality would likely take care of itself.

    At it’s core there is no reasonable argument (other than fashion) for women to wear dresses and men to not. For women to wear makeup and men to not. Yet it is a hot button issue that garnishes way too much attention.

    When you look at the whole world, gender stereotypes are the thing that plagues us as a people. Any call to not recognize this is turning a blind eye to the facts of the world and history.

  2. Turbohand says

    Homophobia is so intertwined with societal gender norms that it is almost impossible to separate them.

    Honestly, if we addressed the issue of gender norms first, the issue of homosexuality would likely take care of itself.

    At it’s core there is no reasonable argument (other than fashion) for women to wear dresses and men to not. For women to wear makeup and men to not. Yet it is a hot button issue that garnishes way too much attention.

    When you look at the whole world, gender stereotypes are the thing that plagues us as a people. Any call to not recognize this is turning a blind eye to the facts of the world and history.

  3. Paul R says

    Totally absurd. I like skinny men just fine. Guys acting too butch usually annoy me because it seems like a front for insecurity. Just be yourself. There’s a variety of expression on the spectrum. I have straight friends who act gay and gay friends who act straight, if you’re following social norms.

    Don’t think that everyone has to act the same way.

  4. QJ201 says

    I find it incredibly contradictory to have a big masculine looking guy screaming “f*ck my p*ssy.” Trust me happens so often I almost expect it.

  5. Patrick says

    Some of this boils down to what science calls “survival of the fittest”. I think we choose the most masculine and virile men in order to preserve our species.

  6. Justin Lenmark says

    I write this as a fem gay man who never plays a part. Never decided to be fem. Never chose to be fem, just as you never chose to be gay. I can’t help my mannerisms being what they are. I shouldn’t feel isolated from my own community for them, but often, I hear resentment from some masculine men. What do you wish I do? change what comes natural to me in behavior…for what purpose? to please who? and if it’s the general public, then why shouldn’t I take it a step further and go back in the closet/ and or/ marry a women? Many in the general public would appreciate that even more.

    Shouldn’t my one life be devoted to being true to myself? fem, masculine, gay or not?

  7. Black Voice Kev says

    The bashing of our effiminate gay brothers needs to stop, and needs to be acknowledged. We as a community have great work to do when we can’t accept the diversity within. A gay man who is effiminate is no less valued in our community, they often take the first punch, first shouts and first bullets. They are identifiably gay, and know and LIVE the consequences of being deemed gay. We should have more sympathy for them, and accept them as members of our growing and *diverse* LGBT

  8. Str8GuyGayBro says

    I never understood that – the femphobia- about the gay community, and wrote about it in a post a while back.

    I’m straight. I hear how gays want to be accepted because of their differences. They tell society that just because a majority is attracted to the opposite sex, doesn’t mean they have to be. That people should respect them for who they are. Then how the hell are you gonna go turn and bash on fellow gays who don’t act exactly as you do? How is that any damn different than us heteros not accepting gays for not acting like we do? I have a gay brother and I’ve shared his stories on here before. He’s been taunted for being fem so often, not mainly by us straight peeps but mostly by you gay people. It’s pretty frustrating actually.

  9. Daya says

    It is a Rainbow flag not Rambo flag!
    It is a symbol of inclusion…
    We all have dealt with the same self-doubt and understanding that we are the same bright light inside. If people need help, help if you can. It’s the HUMAN thing to do…enough said.

  10. MiMi says

    There’s so much mysoginy and homophobia attached to disdain toward fem gays and butch lesbians, if some in the LGBT movement onlyyyy knew…

    Educate yourselves. The reason anti gay folks resent those who are fem gays and butch lesbians is because they are identifiable. They are visible in being gay, therefor they are a threat to their normalcy. The bigot crowd doesn’t mind those in the LGBT who can blend in and be passable, after all, they are all hetero as far as the hater is concerned. But the fem gay and butch lesbian, they are the axis of evil, they are “activists” even if they are just living their lives, doing their daily routines.

    Not all our GLBT members must be hetero-washed in order to be accepted. That our gay men have to pass for a straight man, and our lesbians have to look like Miss Universe is the breeding ground for homophobia. To even suggest otherwise is to admit you haven’t give this issue a well thought out conclusion.

  11. MiMi says

    There’s so much mysoginy and homophobia attached to disdain toward fem gays and butch lesbians, if some in the LGBT movement onlyyyy knew…

    Educate yourselves. The reason anti gay folks resent those who are fem gays and butch lesbians is because they are identifiable. They are visible in being gay, therefor they are a threat to their normalcy. The bigot crowd doesn’t mind those in the LGBT who can blend in and be passable, after all, they are all hetero as far as the hater is concerned. But the fem gay and butch lesbian, they are the axis of evil, they are “activists” even if they are just living their lives, doing their daily routines.

    Not all our GLBT members must be hetero-washed in order to be accepted. That our gay men have to pass for a straight man, and our lesbians have to look like Miss Universe is the breeding ground for homophobia. To even suggest otherwise is to admit you haven’t give this issue a well thought out conclusion.

  12. Todd says

    As a ‘masculine’ percieved gay male, I never understood the insecurity some “masculine” gay men have in other feminine gays. So WHAT if they are feminine? Why do they need to represent you? Why can’t you represent yourself to society without demanding all gays act like you so you can protect your machismo image of masculinity.
    Let’s get something clear here, if you’re truly masculine, you don’t care who acts like what. It doesn’t threaten you. Only someone PLAYING the part of masculine feels insecure by feminine men. I’m naturally masculine. Don’t care who around me acts like a princess. I’ll still be naturally masculine. I don’t need to knock feminine gays to feel more masculine about myself.

  13. NS says

    I’m a gay man and to be honest I really don’t see any connection to the trans community whatsoever. I have no desire to change my sexuality and I’m not attracted to those who are/do. I think they’re only related in that they both deal with sexual issues outside of the status quo, but in many ways I think it’s a bit narrow-minded to just group these different communities into one another as I think a lot of people do. As I said, I see myself as existing in a completely separate community. It’s like grouping the feminist movement in with the LGBT community because that too is related to sexuality in a way. I feel like in an attempt to group people together we kind of lose sight of each group’s distinct desires and goals.

  14. says

    Hi STR8GUYGAYBRO, Your brother is lucky to have such a loving brother watch out for him. I am obviously gay too, they can pick me out as the gay guy in any lineup and have felt many of the things JUSTIN LENMARK mentions.

    BLACK VOICE KEV is right too and if it weren’t for the femme guys taking the blows, I wonder where gay rights would be right now?

    TURBOHAND’s comment seems to sum up what we need to change culturally… sigh

    It is nice to hear others acknowledging this. I tend to shrink away from these conversations because there is so much cultural hatred for the femme guy.

  15. Sunshinestar says

    @ MiMi

    I hope you don’t mind that I saved your post and will share it on my facebook page. It was one of the most poignant things I’ve read on this site. You rock for sharing that.

  16. Bart says

    Everybody just be themselves. Some of the biggest gay gym guys are very effeminate. Some ‘skinny’ gay men are very macho. This notion that one-size-fits-all, that we’re all in this together, is crap. Being gay is out sexuality, it’s not our entire life. It doesn’t define me masculine or feminine, it doesn’t define my politics, it doesn’t define my look, my relationships, my family. It’s part of me, it’s not the all of me. We’re all different. Take each person as they come rather than try and force us to be a group that’s suppose to do behave a certain way because someone who has the bull pulpit, a megaphone or a daily column in a newspaper tells us so.

  17. Sunshinestar says

    To LGBT who bash on effeminate gays, and enjoy making them feel alienated, I guess my sincere question is this: how are you any different than the worst bully on the school playground? Honest question I hope those who bash on our non gender normative gays ask themselves. How are you any different?

  18. Drew2 says

    Here’s a reality check: it’s the more “masculine” and “normal” gays that have helped the rest of the general public slowly embrace gays, gay marriage, equality, etc. over time.

    Divas and c^nty queens who scream “gurrrl” every 2 seconds do not help the cause. They’re the reason a lot of straight people will always hate us.

    Now go ahead and tell me how insecure and ignorant I am. It’ll make you feel better and more enlightened, but at the end of the day, will not change reality.

  19. joest says

    These are discussions are just a big circle jerk of irrelevant academic jargon spewing.

    Be you and be good. Don’t fault others for trying to do the same thing.

  20. says

    @ Drew2

    You’re not just ignorant, interesting how you recognized that in yourself mind you, you’re homophobic, bitter, jaded, angry, and closed minded. You actually share more commonalities with an anti-gay bigot far more so than you do with an LGBT member.

    And that’s just it. The only thing that makes people like you who have an unhealthy obsession with masculinity even identify as gay is because you couldn’t fight your urge for the c-ock. You’re cut from the same cloth as a homophobe. Both preach sameness. Both preach acting in a manner based on comfort levels of the majority. Both want people to change who they inherently are to please your arrogance and ignorance. You’re one in the same. You just happen to love c-ock and can’t fight the urge for c-ock, but hateful, bigoted, ignorant and arrogant nonetheless. I suggest working on that, after some soul searching.

  21. CaliCouple says

    Drew2,

    Most of you hyper masculine gays are anything but normal. You pride yourself in your masculinity and view normalcey based not on character but who can win the butch-off. It all stems from internalized homophobia you have yet to confront. Until you do, you’re not fully out nor comfortable in your skin. I’ve met more hyper masculine gay men with issues than I ever have any fem gay. That’s something worth looking into. Maybe a study by a gay oriented group.

  22. says

    DREW2 go f*ck yourself. You haven’t the balls to wear pants, let alone a dress. It’s perverted little homophobes and misogynists like you within the LGBT communities that keep us from making any real progress. Your self-loathing and sexism keeps us divided. Your “masculine” “normal” delusion is nothing but a bunch of neutered closet cases, simpering behind closed doors and beating yourself to death watching internet porn. Those of us with big, hairy, cast-iron balls will still be marching in the streets – high-heels, sequins, and bullet-proof wigs – to make sure the world is safe, even for spineless little ignorant pigs like you.

  23. USC Trojan Fan says

    I honestly think the gay community has been too soft in their approach of combating mannerism phobias in the gay community. Enough with excusing LGBT who put down fem gays or masculine lesbians. Seriously time to call out their insecurities and hate. It’s just that- hate. I agree with other commentators above that it has many correlations with the hate that has us defending our rights as LGBT. Same brand of hate reworded in more calculating terms.

    I wish more articles were geared toward this issue, and I do believe it is an issue. How some gays think they have authority to tell other gays how to behave, much less judge them for it is rich. Don’t scream “equality” when you’re not willing to extend that same level of respect and right to be themselves for fem gay men.

  24. Real Talk says

    We have a community that embraces the most self loathing term known to mankind—-

    “Straight acting”

    Gay men ACTUALLY use that term, with pride. A laughable, ridiculous absurd phrase like that, voluntarily, to describe themselves.

    We as a community put the straight man, and heterosexuality on a pedestal. Be it straight men we praise and propose to on this site frequently, to staying closeted, to staying “straight acting”

    Is it ANY wonder the community takes issue with men who appear gay when we use a most insulting term like “Straight acting” as a term of endearment to describe ourselves?

    We gays have a lot of work to do, but before we ask the masses to accept who we are, we’re better off first examining our own prejudices with ‘differences’ and accepting who we all are.

  25. Jake M. says

    Seriously, the gay guys I meet who scream how masculine they are and who beat down on fems are some of the cattiest, bitchiest, most hormonal men I’ve met in my 21 years of being out. I’m neither considered fem nor ‘str8 acting’ yet I’m always amazed that the men who glorify their own masculinity can be so catty and cruel and often possess the qualities they claim they don’t champion.

  26. Jim says

    I personally find fem gays more appealing. Something about a guy who is unapologetically himself, and doesn’t care what society thinks, and faces a hostile world yet makes no excuse for who he is is VERY attractive to me.

  27. RugbyJordan says

    More power to effeminate gays. They sure don’t have it easy and in most all cases I’ve witnessed with my effeminate gay friends, they are who they are, and it’s not some act. Many people are naturally wired to be effeminate, as many people are naturally wired to be masculine. If anything, if I’m gonna be blunt, I’ve had more experiences with super masculine gay men who I realized were just playing a role and it was all a facade (later in a friendship/relationship) than I have experienced effeminate gays I know playing a role. I’m not into people putting on an act to be accepted by society. Not saying all masculine gay men are guilty of this, but it certainly does happen often through my experiences.

  28. Drew2 says

    Ok, let’s relax.

    I’m not entirely serious. I just like to get a rise out of y’all and see reactions.

    Acceptance of all kinds of people is important (seriously).

    Happy Friday, everyone! ; )

  29. DogLuvr says

    If you can’t accept the fact that fem gays will always be part of our community and are not going anywhere, maybe you’re the one who should see your way out, considering the moral fibers of who we are as a community have always been about inclusiveness and diversity and will always be about that. If our acceptance of nonconformist upsets you, I hear Iran is beautiful this time of year. And in that lovely nation of miltants, one can expect stonings for men who act fem. Might be a perfect match for ya.

  30. Ana Stesia says

    As always the comments on towleroad help me to understand myself and the community I am part of – thanks again.
    We are all a mix of masculine and feminine traits and that includes straights. The mix is not always readily apparent on the surface. When obvious cross-gender traits are present it is usually understood by others as a social broadcast. When that message is understood as one that is copasetic [a/k/a copastetic]somehow, people come together, and when it’s not, they avoid each other or worse. Both straights and gays have this human/primate quality. Primitive feelings and needs create this social interplay. In ancient Greece there was a social order that had a place for all the aspects of same-sex attraction. Presumably this allowed for the development of different sorts of broadcasts by those with strong same-sex attractions and also allowed others to accept the broadcasted information without pereceiving it as a threat to their own needs. As a coherent, rounded place for gays develops in our society again, both gays and straights should be able to accept sexual variances more easily.

  31. Jay says

    We should be respectful of each other and of how we present ourselves. But I find it somewhat strange that gay men should be criticized for being too gender conforming. Most of the trans people I know have invested a huge amount of time, effort, and emotional angst in making their outer appearance conform to their inner feelings. Most of them try very hard to appear butch (if they have transitioned from ftm) or feminine (if they have transition from mtf). Indeed, they seem to be very much concerned with gender expectations and attempt to conform. I think that butch dykes and sissy gay men are exceptionally brave and deserve our support.

  32. Michaelo says

    It’s about respect and tolerance. Don’t demand people treat you fairly when you request gays change and be more “normal acting” to please straight people. Not every gay person lives their lives for straight people, or what straight people think or what straight people say. You wanna do that? Cool. Do you. The rest of us wanna live our lives, if that includes many queeny moments, EFF it. who’s life is it? Yours. Live it for you.

  33. Bill says

    I don’t think that gay men who try to make themselves hyper masculine are seeking acceptance in the larger (heterosexual) community. They’re trying to make themselves more sexually attractive to other men who might be inclined to have sex with them! Let’s face it, MOST of us, being attracted to men, are attracted to manly men.

  34. Ana Stesia says

    Jay – love your post. I agree first and foremost we need to reach out all around and that we all do the best we can based on the hand dealt. Your post does point out though that sissies and butch dykes are willing to be themselves and try and make a place in the world as they are. To be trans means you are trying desperately for a place in the world as it has been limited already by others.

  35. David says

    This discussion needs a clearer definition of effeminacy. Are we speaking of gay men who have and express qualities that are more often identified in female, or are we speaking of attention-seeking queens who dominate every space they inhabit?

    On the other end of the spectrum, what is the difference between men whose bodies are perfect, but their masculine behaviors are completely put on, versus the gay men who are naturally masculine?

    The argument then becomes what kind of people do you feel comfortable being around, and how do these types represent the gay community.

  36. Sargon Bighorn says

    “The drive toward becoming respectable”…I sort of like respectable, sure beats being rude, aloof, arrogant, full of attitude. I don’t look to Str8 folk for that role model however.

  37. Rick says

    “Here’s a reality check: it’s the more “masculine” and “normal” gays that have helped the rest of the general public slowly embrace gays, gay marriage, equality, etc. over time.

    Divas and c^nty queens who scream “gurrrl” every 2 seconds do not help the cause. They’re the reason a lot of straight people will always hate us.”

    Absolutely 100% true…..and all the predictable responses you got–as always, full of deep bitterness on the part of the effeminate–just underscores that the attackers, themselves, KNOW how true it is.

    Look around you. You will not find a single successful gay man in any professional field who is effeminate, outside of the most stereotypical of occupations.

    Men who behave that way are not and will never be respected in society and will never command any authority of any kind, which will result in them being forever confined to the social margins.

    All the desperate attempts to promote a “gender-non-confomity” ideology have failed miserably and will continue to fail, for one simple reason–men are men, they are fundamentally different from women by nature in many ways–ways that are driven by basic biology and evolutionary imperative–and there is a natural repulsion in all humans, including homosexuals, when faced with attempts to violate that fundamental nature. It is as fundamental a form of repugnance as the repugnance you see to cannibalism, incest, or eating boogers. And a violation of nature is exactly what effeminate behavior in men is.

    Men do not naturally refer to each other as “girl”, they do not naturally “swish” when they walk, they do not naturally lisp when they talk, they do not naturally identify with women in preference to their own gender.

    Men who do so are doing so because they are psychologically damaged–undoubtedly they have taken cues from society that homosexuality equates to a lack of masculinity and whether consciously or sub-consciously have therefore modeled their behavior artificially on women.

    This behavior is all LEARNED. It has no basis in nature.

    And you will never succeed in trying to get society to reject natural masculinity in favor of the opposite.

    We CAN succeed in making homosexuality, per se, acceptable, because it IS grounded in nature–which is why it is such a constant across all human socieities and has been since the dawn of time.

    It is all about nature and you cannot fight it–and those of us who see an historical chance to eliminate the ancient taboo against homosexuality being a golden opportunity are sick and tired of those who would destroy that opportunity by linking sexual attraction between men to some kind of warped notion of gender confusion.

    You can all learn to be men, just as you learned not to be.

    And unless and until you do, you will deserve and get nothing but contempt, from both the larger society and from other gay men.

    That will never change, so you might as well get used to it and make up your minds to deal with your own issues…..

  38. arrant says

    “Men do not naturally refer to each other as “girl”, they do not naturally “swish” when they walk, they do not naturally lisp when they talk, they do not naturally identify with women in preference to their own gender.”

    Oh, Rick. Naturally you believe these things because nature made you an idiot.

  39. Rick says

    “This discussion needs a clearer definition of effeminacy. Are we speaking of gay men who have and express qualities that are more often identified in female, or are we speaking of attention-seeking queens who dominate every space they inhabit?

    On the other end of the spectrum, what is the difference between men whose bodies are perfect, but their masculine behaviors are completely put on, versus the gay men who are naturally masculine?”

    @David It is really not that complicated. Just observe how straight men act. Most of them are neither phony hyper-masculine steroid-driven globs of muscle nor are they obsessed with women and doing everything they can to mimic the behavior of women.

    There is a range of behaviors among them–an opera-going gentleman is quite different from a blue-collar, beer-swilling truck driver……but they all share a basic natural masculinity, the qualities of which are very well understood by all.

    And this is not because they are heterosexual–it is because, not having been programmed by society to believe that their sexuality is incompatible with masculinity, they just behave naturally.

    The gay men who behave like them–in the same naturally masculine way–are those that have not internalized the idea of their sexuality being incompatible with masculinity….and therefore don’t behave in unnaturally effeminate ways, themselves, any more than straight men do.

    That is all there is to it…..and the fact that gay men struggle so mightily with the issue of masculinity is due to the damage society has inflicted on us through homophobia for centuries.

    It will take a while for us to recover from that, but it can be done……it can be done, though, only if we see clearly what the causes of effeminacy are and determine ourselves to do something about it rather than trying to justify it…..

  40. UniteCause says

    The fact that the femphobes and hyper masculine gays have RICK on their side is enough to tell me who has the rational, logical argument here.

    Those who dictate others act according to their narrow minded view of how we should all walk/talk/behave or those who accept people for who they are and realize that fem gay man can be a potential amazing partner or friend, and don’t judge people based on petty surface characteristics.

  41. Demeteri says

    I’m put off by overt masculinity. If I see it, I chalk it up as an act being put on to save face for straights. The fact that so many masculine gay man actually NOTE that they are helping ‘win over heterosexuals by being masculine’ tells me it’s usually orchestrated, calculated, and pretense. I find it really gross when I can tell you’re putting on a masculine act. That’s just me.

  42. alistenacrush says

    Fem, butch, masc, old, tall, whatever…come as you ARE. That is what our rainbow flag represents, and no self hating, self loathing, internalized homophobe will change the stripes of our rainbow flag and their inclusive message.

    Try as you may: the gay community has and will ALWAYS represent and welcome gender benders, freaks, lovers, individuals, and everyone inbetween. That will never change.

  43. Rick says

    “Try as you may: the gay community has and will ALWAYS represent and welcome gender benders, freaks, lovers, individuals, and everyone inbetween. That will never change.”

    The idea of “gay” itself is nothing but a cultural construct. Human sexuality is varied and comes in 1000 shades of gray. Most people have some degree of bisexual attraction.

    There is no true “gay community.” All that has ever bound any of us together is having some degree of sexual attraction to the same gender….and a shared desire to change society in such a way that that attraction is no longer regarded as socially unacceptable or a barrier to being part of the social mainstream.

    We are rapidly approaching the point at which homosexuality, itself, is becoming a non-issue…..and at which men who embrace masculine values and behave in a naturally masculine way will be accepted by other men, regardless of the range of sexual interests they might have, including an exclusive interest in other men.

    Once we have reached that point, those of us who fit into that category will have gotten what we want……and will only see negatives from associating with effeminate men who happen to have a sexual attraction to men, too…..and will, indeed, find ourselves, as we really always have, having more in common with straight or bi men than we have ever had with the former.

    We will have been accepted as men and will be respected as other men are respected…..which will never be the case with those who reject masculine values.

    And we are in fact, very close to that tipping point, which is why you are seeing the lack of patience on the part of male-identifying gay men.

    That patience is not infinite–and you would do well to recognize that fact.

    You need us, but we damn sure do not need you……..

  44. Ana Stesia says

    Rick. I agree we may be reaching a “tipping point.” But that would probably help to make effeminacy less of an issue and probably less prevalent as well. You’re also right that humans are complicated and there are “1000 shades.” It’s probably for a reason. Life requires more than a village to make it all work. We probably all do need each other

  45. UFFDA says

    When it’s all worked out we’ll all still be here, all of us. Gay won’t matter and we’ll all gravitate to where we feel most comfortable. Effeminant men and Joe the Plumber types will not hang out easily but the latter might not feel quite so hostile as they will have given in to the huge variety of types. If not, so what? They will each have their own sphere’s. Some of what RICK says is undeniably true but there will be no natural disappearance of all effeminant men because many of them are, in fact, natural. The fake ones, clowns and drag queens, will merely be more irrelevant than they already are.

  46. Rick says

    “Rick. I agree we may be reaching a “tipping point.” But that would probably help to make effeminacy less of an issue and probably less prevalent as well”

    @Ana Stesia My sincere hope is that when what I regard as the causes of effeminacy dissipate–namely, the cultural notion that homosexual attraction and masculinity are incompatible–effeminacy, itself, will dissipate naturally and organically.

    I am not sure whether by saying that reaching the tipping point would make effeminacy less of an issue, you meant what I just said in the first paragraph, in which case I agree with you, or you meant that effeminacy will become more acceptable, which I absolutely don’t believe will ever happen.

    The danger I see right now is that that the face of “gay” in the media is one of effeminacy and “gender-non-conformity”–which is seriously damaging–or at least considerably delaying–the reaching of the tipping point.

    I personally sense that young straight men are as absolutely sick and tired of a culture that demands that they attach themselves emotionally and socially to women as masculine gay men are……and they want to change the male culture so as to allow men more emotional, social and sexual freedom with each other. The problem is that, if that freedom is tainted by association with effeminacy and “un-masculinity”, it acts as a deterrent to change of the sort that will be beneficial to us all.

  47. says

    Speaking as an effeminate Gay male, I hate macho fascism, but I’m not crazy about “queer” fascism, either. Both ideologies try to dictate what a Gay man is supposed to look and act like. Believe me, being told you’re not “queeny” enough is just as bad as being told you’re not “butch” enough. Get the f*ck out of my face, all you control freaks!

    As for Transfolk, I agree that their issues can be very different from those that Lesbians and Gay men prioritize. Maybe there should be a parting of the ways, at least temporarily. There really isn’t, in my opinion, a strong Transsexual Rights movement, and independence from the Gay Rights crowd might give one the impetus to develop.

  48. Derrick from Philly says

    Well, there’s only one thing to do after reading Rick’s comments. I’m going to go to Youtube and view exerpts from “Paris Is Burning,” “The Queen,” “Torch Song Trilogy,” “Priscilla, Queen of the Desert” “Punks,” “La Cage aux Folles” and “Noah’s Arc,” and “Wigstock”.

    You know, see Gay people who make me feel happy. ‘Course, I don’t know if anybody in “Priscilla…” was actually Gay.

  49. says

    I’ve never met a masculine, confident, secure and OUT gay male who denigrates and distances himself from “effeminate” guys or our trans brothers.

    I have only ever met and encountered insecure cowardly wimps who wish they were “masc” (but aren’t) who have that type of mentality.

    Wanna see a fun game? here goes: all the insecure wimps with no balls who can’t stand “femmes” and “transpeople” are so cowardly and insecure that they can’t post their names or faces.

    fun fact. all the haters who logged onto this thread to share their disdain for “femme” guys and transguys? They prove me right – wimpy cowards with no balls who need to vent angrily from a place of online anonymity.

    so their claims to being strong masculine manly empowered men who give a “better picture” of the gay community are wholly false. they give no picture. they’re pathetic grown-adult closet cases.

    you show me a gay man who belittles, denigrates, demeans, and distances himself from those who may be deem “femme” by society and i’ll show you a pathetic worm of a man who never grew the balls to stand up to his piece of s**t father.

    am i wrong? well, i aint been proven wrong yet.

    if so, PROVE it.

  50. says

    http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2011/09/carrying-self-hatred-into-adulthood.html

    there will always be angry men who are furious that the “femmes” they were conditioned to hate are actually stronger, more courageous, tougher and more secure men than they likely ever will be.

    it’s like with the GOProuders hating liberals and blacks.. they were taught to hate that. just as the trolls on here, and in the world, were taught to hate “femme” things. i can’t see how it’s helped them, though. it’s not enabled them to be any more secure as adult gay men.

    for once, just ONCE, i’d love for one of this site’s resident trolls to prove me wrong. show yourself. alas, you can’t.
    and you’re angry because the femmes you loathe aren’t living with the same pathetic crippling fear that you have

    oh well

    http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2011/09/carrying-self-hatred-into-adulthood.html

    to any young people who read this, don’t become like the guy i featured. this is what happens to the “RICK”s of the world. they get older, their lives pass them by, and they never get over their insecurities.

    and it’s sad.

    HAPPY PRIDE

  51. Jay says

    usc trojan fan, black voice kev you are bright lights of sanity in this discussion. thank you. we are all members of a vast and diverse commuinity of people and we must accept each other if we expect acceptance from others. we have a lot of work to do within our community, just as we are asking those outside it to work and accept; none of this is easy and none of it will happen if we can’t learn to respect each other and each other’s differences.

  52. Ana Stesia says

    Rick – For the record I meant that effeminancy will be more accepted in the future. For the life of me I don’t see why you think it matters so much. Sure some people straight and gay can’t deal with certain degrees of cross-gender traits. But applying logic – what’s the issue? It really doesn’t reflect on others who are not just because they are also gay. Many people look to reduce the value of other people to build up their own self-worth. That will happen to gays to some extent no matter what. Being effeminate is just a hook to hang it on.

  53. says

    Ana, it’s like i said – RICK and his fellow trolls aren’t Out. they’re terrified of people knowing they’re gay. that’s why they’re so angry at, uh, femme guys. because those guys AREN’T scared.

    it’s the emasculation of the closeted male. he considers himself a real masculine man, yet in truth doesn’t have the balls to actually stand up to be counted.

    oh well. not our mess.

  54. anon says

    I think for men who are sexually attracted to men, the manliness of the men they are attracted to would factor into the attraction. It would by definition have to differentiate itself from femininity.

    The article is a complete shambles. What about ageism, and the disdain for fatties, baldies and short people, etc.? We used to ask “what’s your type?” or “what are you into?”. It’s perfectly natural that people aren’t into every body type. It also happens that some guys just aren’t going to be sexually attractive to many other men.

    We also might think there is a “gay community” but really that notion is very hard to sustain because of the lack of commonality between all the gay men around who just can’t see eye-to-eye on things otherwise. The community is also very thinly spread.

    Lumping trans issues with the problems faced by effeminate gay men seems both ignorant and bizarre.

  55. Henry Holland says

    “Ana, it’s like i said – RICK and his fellow trolls aren’t Out”

    To use your style: Prove it. Show me a quote from the real Rick and not you trolling as him that says he’s not out.

    C’mon prove it.

  56. Rovex says

    The phobia goes both ways. Some of us naturally ‘average’ acting gay guys get hated on for ‘fitting in’, when we just do, naturally.
    I also dont find ‘fem’ attractive if its pronounced. Its just the way it is.

  57. Rick says

    “For the life of me I don’t see why you think it matters so much”

    It is not why I think it matters; it is why society as a whole thinks it matters–and we are talking about society as a whole, here, with which I am in perfect concert, however much I might not be in concert with most of those in this tiny little subset of society.

    It matters because masculine values–and the reinforcement of them–are critical to the well-being and survival of society. A society that tolerates effeminacy and cowardice in men (and yes, the two go hand-in-hand) would be a society that would not be willing or able to defend itself when attacked.

    This is why effeminacy has been universally frowned upon throughout history in pretty much all human societies and always will be–that and what I previously alluded to–namely that such behavior is simply unnatural and therefore innately repulsive to human beings everywhere…..including gay men, themselves, who, as we know, overwhelmingly prefer men with a masculine demeanor sexually (which, by the way, is the very reason so many gay men “try” to behave masculinely to begin with)

    Homosexuality has only been frowned on in those where it has been wrongly associated with effeminacy, such as the modern West.

    We are fast approaching the point where the latter association is fading away….but it will not be accompanied by a fading away of the masculine values that are critical to the viability of any society……and anyone who thinks that it will is beyond delusional.

    Glad to see, by the way, that my posts here have now come to the attention of the Huffington Post and other major media outlets and have become the inspiration for articles that raise these issues……

  58. Bosie says

    I’ve seen it, heard it..and I guess lived it in different occasions. HOMOPHOBIA among those “Str8 acting” gays is really sad….their insecurities coem thru as bullying our fem gay, trans bros/sisters.

    NEEDS TO STOP!

  59. Rovex says

    Lets be honest here, there are MANY fakers out there. Fake macho AND fake fems. Seen many a high pitch mincer drop an octave when no one is around, seen many mancho suited guys swish a boas on a saturday night. Both annoy me. I have no interest in going to the gym and butching it up, but i also have no interest in Drag queens and jazzhands. Its just not me.

    The problem i see on here is that many of the fems WIL NOT accept that a gay man can be average acting and gay, they have to be faking. While i agree there is a lot of anti-fem prejudice around the fems dish it out with just as much vitriol. Both are dead wrong.

  60. says

    hey gay guys that “can’t stand femmes” – prove you’re such a strong masculine manly empowered Out gay male.

    it’s so easy even i can do it.

    its’ just the reality – no masculine confident men denigrate other males who may not be as “masc-appearing” as they think they are.

    and the fact that none of you wimps can put a face to your claims only proves me right.

    wanna prove me wrong? grow a pair of balls and show yourself. but you won’t. because you can’t. because you’re cowards.

    and that’s why you hate those “femmes” – they’re not scared of what straight people think, and you are.

    take your own advice. man up. or else continue to prove me, and everyone else, right.

    and to get ball-free Rovex’s strawman out of the way – it’s not about “not being into fems” , but the way you are about it. you show me an online profile that denigrates “masc guys” and i’ll show you a unicorn.

    some come on, wimps. show yourselves 😀

    http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2011/09/carrying-self-hatred-into-adulthood.html

    see? this guy isn’t saying “masculine guy for same” – nor is he even sharing a list of his positive attributes. all he’s displaying are his insecure prejudices. and you wusses are just like him.

    so, put up or shut up.

  61. Rick says

    “The problem i see on here is that many of the fems WIL NOT accept that a gay man can be average acting and gay, they have to be faking”

    Yep. And you see that in stories on this site, just to use one example, where they are trying to catch Anderson Cooper in a “giggle”.

    It also explains why there ia so much resentment directed at masculine gay men who have succeeded (they are rarely celebrated the way “divas” are by effeminate men)….and why there is such pathetic glee expressed when they are “outed”, even if they have done nothing to harm other gay people (i.e. John Travolta).

    One reason for all this, of course, is that effeminate gay men are deeply threatened by the prospect of masculine gay men being accepted by other men and leaving them behind…..which is precisely what is beginning to happen….and precisely why their bitterness and hostility have become more and more evident.

    There is an even more basic reason for it, though–and that is that the sight of a gay man who is not effeminate completely destroys their claim that their effeminacy is “natural” and a natural consequence of their sexuality……when in fact it is only artifice.

    And if it is artifice, then it is necessarily a choice–and if it is a choice, then they are culpable for the consequences of that choice.

    In short, it cuts the excuse for their behavior right out from under them.

  62. Rovex says

    Everyone has masculine and feminine traits, but when it goes too far one way of the other, its annoying. I dont like Arrogant, i dont like overly masculine, guys into fighting, posturing and drinking beer all day. I also dont like mincing, preening, jazz hands or high pitch voices.

    Is it so hard to beleive that some of us dont like the full on fem guys? The blond highlights, fem voices and yes the ‘gurrll’ and ‘She’ thing.

    A picture proves nothing LittleKiwi, your picture doesn’t show me a fem guy, your actions might, and the actions are what might put me off.

    Its noyt about being ‘tough’. Yes fem guys can be rock hard in the face of adversity, doesnt make then less fem, and to me thats an off put. Fem or masc has NOTHING to do with toughness. THATS where YOU are wrong.

  63. throwslikeagirl says

    My straight neighbor once said to me, “You know, no straight person uses the term “straight-acting”. And as Ru Paul has said, “It’s ALL drag.”

  64. Rovex says

    Being fem or masc certainly can be natural, it doesn’t have to be fake, doesn’t mean i have to like it. Why is that so hard to understand?

  65. says

    no but your tone and comments and inability to put a face to them prove me right. so keep it up, chump 😀

    no, it’s not hard to believe that you guys don’t like “fem types”

    and the good news is, you boys are such pathetic cowards that, luckily, we openly-gay guys who aren’t insecure ninnies never have to deal with you in the real world.

    so, keep on hating fems. won’t make your own life better. and continue proving me right by being unable to put a face to your comments. 😀

    http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2009/09/in-defense-of-my-glorious-femme.html

  66. says

    and unlike rick and the other wimps in here, “effeminate men” aren’t the one who feel “threatened” – after all, they have no qualms with being openly gay, and living an authentic life, and you sad-sacks have to live vicariously through an anonymous internet handle.

    http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2009/09/in-defense-of-my-glorious-femme.html

    so keep it up. you’re fully allowed to live as a eunuch i just don’t see why you’re so proud of it.

  67. johnny says

    Obviously, this article hits a nerve in the gay community, and therefore should be examined more closely.

    Rovex writes: “The problem i see on here is that many of the fems WIL NOT accept that a gay man can be average acting and gay, they have to be faking.”

    I’d have to agree with this, and just as many fem gay men are faking that stereotype as well. There are both types naturally and both types get faked. And it’s pretty easy to see the fake ones and very puzzling (for me) as to why they even exist.

    As many have already stated: be yourself.

    I can remember a day back in the 80s when butch and fem men all hung out together and all GOT ALONG and there were no problems at all. We were just gay people having fun together. Sure, each of us had attractions to our types, but that’s normal.

    What’s not normal is how many gay people want to stand on their turf and say “I’m right, you’re wrong” and cause division.

    Can’t we all just get along?

  68. says

    Rovex, you’re totally allowed to be a coward who lives in fear of disappointing his dad even further. I just don’t know why you’re so proud of it.

    it’s not about what you like, but how you are about it.

    you’re one more wimp terrified of “gay stereotypes”
    well, good for you. as long as those fears keep you dunces scared away in the closet the rest of us can go out and continue to enjoy our gay-@ss lives 😀

  69. Rick says

    Hey, UFFDA, why don’t you ask a certain commenter who is so “out and proud” and constantly telling everyone about it……ask him, I say, what his real name is, what he does for a living, where he works, and what his primary source of income is?

    And ask him whether he still lives at home with Mom and Dad and is supported by them, as you suggested the other day…..

    I did that with one such clown the other day and it yielded hilarious results…..

  70. Rovex says

    Littlekiwi, you sound so one dimensional. So what, you have a a blog about how wonderful and fem you are, You else do you want? A medal? Me and my husband are just getting on with our fully open lives. Guess what, no one cares.

  71. says

    “be yourself” is hard when gay people spend their Pre-Out Lives PRETENDING TO BE SOMEONE ELSE.

    add onto that the fear of “being the right/wrong kind of gay” for the newly-Out and you get confusion.

    i’ve often heard complete idiots say “my friend totally bought into the gay stereotype, after he came out, he started liking stereotypically gay things”

    no s**t. he couldn’t “openly” like them before, because they’re considered “gay stereotypes”, and insecure closeted homosexuals avoid such things because they don’t want to clue people into the fact that they’re gay. duh.

    coming out removes those pressures. you’re free to find out who you are, and part of that means checking your insecurities, and indeed embracing things that you previously avoided in order to “avoid detection.”

    ugh, why am i even bothering to explain this to a bunch of anonymous cowards anyway?

    capers for testes. the lot of you.

  72. says

    if i’m so fem how come i’m always being hit on by guys who “hate fems”?
    http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2012/06/straight-is-not-compliment.html
    see? hehehe.
    😉

    http://youtu.be/3fprm2OCZ7o
    video. of me. MOI.

    there’s my name. there’s me. i live half-and-half between toronto and Brooklyn. i live in a cute little rental house in Canada, and with a lover in NYC.

    check it out, wusses.

    now, i can do that, but you wimps can’t even show your faces? exactly. keep proving me right

    you show me a gay man who cant’ stop talking about how much he hates “femmes” and i’ll show you a wimp who never grew a pair and stood up to his piece-of-s**t father.

  73. says

    i can do it, RICK, why cant’ you? oh, right. because then you and your anonymous-collection of profiles would evanesce 😀

    believe it not, RICK et al, sunday afternoon my family and i will be marching for YOU. my dad will march in support of his gay son because your father’s wouldn’t.

    he says “you’re welcome”, btw.

  74. Rovex says

    It also seems like your just trolling for blog hits, that pretty shallow.

    What manly about having a blog with your face on it? You seem to have a bizarre view of whats manly. Speaks volumes about your general attitude on here.

  75. says

    just showing that unlike the complainers, i’m no coward who can only make his comments from a wimpy place of anonymity.

    you’re more than free to continue to be an anonymous troll who can’t show yourself. it proves me right. so thanks!

  76. GregV says

    The article at HuffPost has been edited:

    “CORRECTION: A previous version of this piece asserted that, Dan Savage, like John Aravosis, has questioned the desirability of a close alliance between the the lesbian, gay, and bisexual community and the transgender community. Although he has clashed with some in the transgender community, he has made no such statement.”

    Actually, the moment I read the quote about Dan Savage I knew it was out-of context if not misleading because I know his views on transgender rights.
    I’m not as familiar with John Aravosis but I googled and read his views and the point he had made is that we need to support civil rights for everyone but that we win the whole “war” by winning a thousand little battles wherever we can.
    To paraphrase in my own words, there are many different (and perhaps tangentially-related) groups that have traditionally (in the past and/or present) been denied rights, such as women, inter-racial couples, gay people and trans people. His point is that they are not exactly the same (and gay and trans people surely are not) but they need to support each other and that a victory for one tangentially-related group helps pave the way for victories for the others.

    I feel like the way the article is worded kind of takes this idea out of context and makes it sound like Aravosis has asked for something more radical.

  77. Rovex says

    I get the impression that if you werent gay Littlekiwi, you would just be making a fuss about something else. Sometimes its got nothing to do with your sexuality, just your general personality. You just love attention positive or negative.

  78. says

    another question – if my heterosexual father supports transpeople and his own (apparenly-fem) gay son, how come some folks on here think that “trans” and “fem” are holding us back from “being accepted by straight people?”

    if my father can even wear a rainbow bracelet in support of us, and yet the straight people in your own life won’t, maybe the problem isn’t “fems” or transpeople, but the fact that you’re a cowardly homosexual doormat and you make it obvious to the Straights In Your Life that you don’t deserve equality..

    just a thought….

    check it out- my mum and dad with Buck Angel
    http://youtu.be/zJom6vyRtQc

  79. says

    rovex, and you move goalposts when your cowardly @ss gets proven wrong. i called your bluff, you ran away like a sissy. note: this is why you’re not accepted as gay. not because you’re gay, but because you’re such a wimp about it.

    it’s not my fault that you can’t live with the same openness that i do.

    yes. i love attention. and you living in hiding and shame. good for you! Happy Pride!

  80. Rovex says

    I dont care, why do you think i care? People can do what they like, it doesnt bother me, all that bothers me is people like you saying i must be homophobic just because i find fem guys annoying. I find fem guys annoying whether they are gay or not. I simply dont like femininity, in the sense YOU mean, in men.
    I still dont see the connection between fem guys and gay guys.

    I dont find ‘straight’ a compliment either, and correct when necessary.

  81. Rovex says

    How am I hiding exactly? Apart from living openly, answering honestly to anyone that asks and just being myself what else do i need to do exactly?

  82. says

    oh, i didn’t realize you were Iranian! what city in Iran do you live in?

    because i can only assume that you made that comment since you live in Iran, otherwise it would make no sense.

    fun fact – the gay men who state how much they cant’ stand femmes can never show themselves and put a face to their comments.

    fact fact fact. until you prove me wrong.

  83. Rovex says

    And fem guys like attention and flaunt themselves all over everything all the time.. Nice this stereotype war isnt it.

    My point was that you arent being as brave as you think you are. You are actually being really boring.. ‘look at me’. Do i have to? :rollseyes:

  84. says

    No gay man who is secure in his own masculinity and comfortable in his own skin should feel threatened or outraged by the T in LGBT, even if they feel they have little in common with most transgendered people. It comes down to a belief that people should be treated equally and compassionately, however closely or not closely that person’s gender presentation fits with so-called societal norms. Real men don’t sweat it. They don’t have to. They’re secure. If you can’t deal with trans issues overlapping with gay issues, then you probably have internal issues that have nothing to do with LGBT identity politics.

  85. Randy says

    I think it’s important to recognize that our movement is bigger than just who we’re attracted to. That is, it’s not just a clone army.

    Certainly our opponents don’t make these divisions. To them, a lesbian is a f—-t. and so is anyone transgender.

    We all violate the same rules. We don’t fit into the tiny boxes “masculine straight man” and “feminine straight woman”.

    But I think the original article is mixing up who belongs in our movement, and who we want to date. These are rightly two entirely separate things. I’m not into feminine OR masculine. People in the middle are for me. But why would I want to dissociate myself from any LGBT person in our movement?

  86. Henry Holland says

    “otherwise it would make no sense”

    For those of us with reading comprehension skills, it made perfect sense, BullyKiwi. Here, I’ll translate:

    You’re incessant screeching about “Show the URL, show the URL!!!!” is easy for someone who lives in Toronto and/or NYC, not so easy in places where being out is a death sentence.

    And how dense are you? Again, it’s like someone here said about six months ago “I’m not posting my URL because I don’t you [i.e. BullyKiwi] anywhere near my blog”. I was cyber stalked 5 years ago, I’ll be damned if I post the URL to my blog just so some loon on Towleroad will STFU.

    C’mon, you liar, prove that Rick is closeted. PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!

  87. Rovex says

    I agree Henry. Maybe Little Kiwi does get abuse, but lets be honest, its not directly because of his sexuality, and I think we know why it is..

  88. OMNOMNOM says

    Little Kiwi,

    How does it feel to be queen of the Bitchy C^nty Queers on Towleroad?

    You never have anything positive, enlightening, empowering, or beneficial to add. It is ALWAYS vitriol, and it is ALWAYS directed at “masculine” men.

    If you want to point the finger, I suggest you point it in the mirror, because YOU are the hateful, divisive face of the gay community that is holding everyone back.

    Trust.

    As for me, I don’t “hate” fem gays.

    I am gay. I am a man who likes men. I am not attracted to females. I don’t identify with females. I don’t emulate females. I don’t idolize females. I don’t dress like a female. I don’t associate with females socially. I don’t have female friends.

    Furthermore, I am not attracted to men who act like females. I don’t identify with men who act like females. I don’t emulate men who act like females. I don’t idolize men who act like females. I don’t associate with men who act like females. I am not friends with men who act like females.

    None of this is an act. It’s just the way I am. And, you know what? There’s nothing wrong with any of that.

    I don’t have to accept your kind any more than you have to accept mine. I just suggest you look inside yourself and really ask why you have so much hate and venom for someone who purports to be the prototype model for the modern gay man.

    Get over yourself, and more importantly… get help.

  89. Henry Holland says

    Rovex, what cracks me up is the idea that having a stupid blog is “proof” you’re out. I know plenty of people who blog who aren’t out to co-workers or their Aunt June or selected individuals but are out to their parents and siblings, it’s the dumbest metric I can think of for “outness”.

  90. Rovex says

    I am fairly average in my behaviour, but i still dont make straight male friends easily. There seems to be a notion that gay men ‘act’ straight to ‘fit in’. Lets make this clear, being gay is a hindrance to that whether you are masculine, feminine or anything else. There is always an element of distrust there because straight men cant empathise with you on a number of levels. Its all about having things in common and the one thing i cant do on a lads night out, the one thing they spend most of their time doing, chasing women.

  91. Rovex says

    Exactly Henry, and how is it brave? who is going to look for some random gay mans blog anyway? Name, address and post the link in a national newspaper and i might be impressed.

  92. johnny says

    I think the thing about Kiwi that bothers people more than anything is not his intent, per se. It’s his style.

    Name-calling is not very attractive. “Wimp, pussy, sissy, troll”… this kind of behavior backed by “show us your face/URL” taunting seems very immature and tends to make anyone reading his posts immediately lose respect.

    Kiwi, I used to agree with a lot of what you said and I might tend to agree with you more if you would be more respectful for people at large rather than on the attack, simply because we don’t care to be as out loud as you are. Everyone comes out in their own way, in their own time and some of us would rather be a little more sedate about it than you were/are.

    Personally, my not showing exactly who I am is not out of any fear of the world knowing I’m gay, it’s more out of fear of what the internet can cause happen if my face/name is known. I’m out to my clients, my freinds and my family but I live in a very homophobic place where neo-nazis live and the KKK is huge. I’d rather not have people in this are know exactly who I am and where I live, thanks. And I’d rather not leave it up to law enforcement to protect me when those same people are in the organizations named above.

    Peace…

  93. Ana Stesia says

    Loved these comments until they focused solely on the personality of the commenters. Can we stick to the original subject in the future?

  94. says

    I’m bisexual and I think i can help both the gays and the straights by saying you’re all fooling yourselves into believing that there is a difference in strength between men and women and a difference in behavior between men and women, the only thing a woman can do that men can’t is give birth and breast feed. Women can do everything a man can do (like pee standing up) except make sperm. Now what about intersex people, when did the LGBTI lose the “I”?

  95. mudgeboy says

    This has been the most wonderful (sorry C.K.) read. Such a civil exchange that I found totally fun and enlightening. I have learned a ton just reading the posts above, and this in the face of so many blogs where people just flame each other. I had never thought about the notion that acceptance of gays is related to gender norms; but, having read it, it makes such obvious sense. Although I think there are other issues involved in gay acceptance, other than simply gender norms.

  96. ratbastard says

    How about just being yourself, which in my case is masculine, not campy butch, or a super-jock, just a typical guy. I’m not meth addict/crackhead ‘skinny’, I’m thin. I’m not a gym bunny either. I don’t have a effeminate bone in my body [cue the d*ck jokes]. I tried imitating a lisp/fem way of speaking and couldn’t pull it off. My voice is way too deep, and it’s completely unnatural to me. Why can’t gay ‘culture’ grow up and allow gay and bi men and women to be themselves, not conform to a stereotype? Why do many gays and lesbians insist on ghettoizing gay men and lesbians?

  97. ratbastard says

    Do fem gay men sexually objectify males, especially masculine males? Yes. Aside from sex, do many gay fem males also dislike those same masculine males,preferring hanging out, being friends with females? Yes, IMO. Are gay men all fem or somewhat fem? No. I do not and never have identified with my ‘fem side’ as some call it. Why do some gay men and lesbians insist that you’ll find a fem if you just scratch the surface of a gay man? That a masculine male who is also gay or bi must be putting on an act? Why the hate? And it is hate. Ironic these same fem males get so upset and self righteous when they feel mocked or discriminated against for their feminine characteristics, yet many of them also mock and ridicule masculine gay males.

  98. Lance says

    ISAAC LEDESMA: No one is discussing that. Pay attention.

    OMNOMNOM:
    RICK:

    Both of you are disgusting misogynistic monsters. ROVEX to a lesser extent.

    STR8GUYGAYBRO: Cut that condescending shtick. You have no right to voice your “dissatisfaction” and “shock” with the gay community; a community you don’t belong to. The only thing you could be doing is read and act as an advocate.

    NS: “I’m a gay man and to be honest I really don’t see any connection to the trans community whatsoever. I have no desire to change my sexuality”

    Stopped reading there.

    You don’t even know what trans means.

  99. Lance says

    And by “no one is discussing that” I am talking about physical and mental strength between genders. The misogyny that has been voiced has been about feminine behavior.

    Your being bisexual doesn’t make you some kind of fount of wisdom on all things gender binary.

  100. ratbastard says

    Because Issac, most males are masculine generally speaking, not feminine. And it’s due to biology, hormones, brain configuration, etc. Males and females are different. We’re both humans, but we’re also different. We think differently, on average have different physical and even mental capabilities, etc. Nature made a male and female to compliment each other, yin/yang. I don’t know why nature, God, whom or whatever, made a small number of males develop female characteristics, but I suppose it’s just an expected deviation from the norm due to some kind of genetic mix-up. Like wise, real homosexuality and bisexuality [not just those who have experimented, but those to whom it’s their dominant sexuality] are probably just a statistically expected deviation, again probably caused by some kind of genetic mix-up. Such deviations generally statistically fall within the 2-5% range, and this is probably the true range of real gay and bi men and lesbians.

  101. Lance says

    RATBASTARD: Hate comes from both ways. “Fem” guys saying that “masc” guys are “putting on an act” and “masc” guys saying the exact same thing about “fem guys.”

    You have no idea how many times I have heard “if I wanted a woman I would sleep with one”, “you are doing a disservice to the gay community” or “why do you have to act like that?”

  102. ratbastard says

    I also find NO attraction to trans ‘men’, and admit finding their behavior disturbing. I’m sorry this upsets some, but understand although I’m gay I’m also a guy and probably [no, not probably, without question] all males, I do not understand guys who think they’re chicks. I do not hate transgendered men or women. But I genuinely don’t ‘get’ it. I do understand they were [IMO] made this way. But strictly as a gay man, I find no particular connection to transgendered aside from the fact this connection is foisted on the gay ‘community’ by the gay and ‘progressive’ powers-that-be, and in fairness by the dominant straight community [at least in the past; gay was of course synonymous with feminine males]. Again, I don’t hate transgendered, don’t disrespect them as human beings, but un-attracted to them sexually and emotionally.

  103. ratbastard says

    Yes Issac, I’m a deviant also. Deviant strictly speaking doesn’t have a necessarily negative connotation to it, it simply mean a deviation from the norm or average.

  104. Lance says

    OMNOMNOM: Read your comment. That is not what I am addressing.

    “I don’t associate with females socially”

    THIS is misogyny.

    Compare:

    “I don’t associate with gay men but that doesn’t mean I am not homophobic”

    “I don’t associate with racial minorities but that doesn’t mean I am a racist”

    Yes, it does.

    RATBASTARD: No, just no.

  105. OMNOMNOM says

    Why exactly do you think I’m required to socialize and be friends with females when I’M GAY?

    Did you not catch that? I AM GAY. I am a homosexual. Women are barely even visible to me because I’M GAY.

    That’s not misogynistic. It’s called being interested in men. I don’t hate women at all. I just have no interest in them whatsoever, because *psst* I’m gay and I like men.

  106. Lance says

    I never said that a person is required to socialize with every single group. Reading comprehension is an incredible thing.

    “I don’t associate with females socially” absolutely means that you avoid them. The sentence you are looking for is “I don’t have female friends”, but even that can be still seen as misogynistic, considering it would still be flanked by anti-femininity drivel.

    “Did you not catch that? I AM GAY. I am a homosexual. Women are barely even visible to me because I’M GAY.”

    So according to you, for two people to be friends there has to be a sexual attraction (at least from one party)? You don’t even know what you are typing anymore.

  107. OMNOMNOM says

    I’m sorry, but I simply don’t know how to convey to you in simpler terms that I am homosexual and I prefer the social company of men. Not females. Men. How is that so hard to understand?

    No, I don’t require sexual attraction to be friends with someone. But, I do require that I can identify with them and have things in common with them in order to be friends. As I don’t identify with women and having nothing in common with them, I see no need to associate with them SOCIALLY. (The professional world is a very different story.)

    There’s no hate in being selective about who I choose to spend my social time with. I have little enough spare time as it is, so I’d prefer to be in the company people I find interesting and with whom I have things in common. Females do not fall into tht category. Big deal. That’s not hateful or remotely misogynistic.

  108. Ana Stesia says

    Sexual orientation does not mean necessarily a preference for a sex. I generally prefer freindships with women even though I am a gay man. I know straight women who have a general hatred for men. Pscychology text books say that men who rape women usually hate women in general yet they are heterosexual. Let’s not confuse our own personal orientation with that of an antire group. Earlier it was said there are 1000 shades – at least.

  109. UFFDA says

    RICK- love the creative trouble you cause and really love how sick so many are of KIWI who can’t prove anything about anyone but himself, a poor little rich kid who doesn’t have to work for a living which gives him all the time in the world to attack, mislabel, falsly post as others and generally make a reverse troll of himself. My god what a screaming hysteric he is.

  110. Ana Stesia says

    Sometimes when I ride on an elevator I imagine what would happen, over time, if I was stranded with this group of people on an island. Try it a few times. I guarantee you that there will come a time, given your choices, that you will imagine that you enetr into a long-term romantic relationship with a women, a crazy straigt dude and probably a very effeminate man. Based on your choices one’s sexuality can suddenly change. It’s not like some of the posters here think: that, never in a thousand years they would ever . . . . I worked on Rikers Island and believe me, based on one’s choices, one’s bedfellows can be quite different from your expectations after a night at the local gay pub – revulsion suddenly disappears. We are community animals with too many choices these days.

  111. Lance says

    OMNOMNOM: And you will once miss my entire point and continue to use this (incredibly fallacious) “I am gay so I prefer the company of men” argument.

    We
    are
    not
    discussing
    romance
    we
    are
    talking
    about
    friendship

    Why do you actively REJECT EVERY SINGLE WOMAN from being a potential friend? I am all ears here.

    You are no better than straight people lumping all gay men together because “they are all the same and we will never have something in common.”

    Reconsider your views and maybe you will realize how horrible they are.

  112. says

    oh, trolls.

    here’s the thing that many have pointed out – confident, secure, Out gay males don’t take any issue with variations of the “masc/femme” spectrum, nor our trans brothers and sisters.

    the only men that do are the insecure wusses who are still living each day looking over their shoulder worrying what The Straights are saying about them.

    just like all the guys who scream about “how gays are being represented” are always the ones who refuse to stand up to be counted to represent THEMSELVES.

    this is why we get anonymous internet trolls. dolts who are just so furious that the “femmes” they’ve been conditioned to loathe are living lives without the fear and insecurity that you boys are still crippled by.

    the good news – us happy Out and proud gay men never have to interact with your kind in the real world. you’re too chickens**t to live openly, so we don’t ever have to deal with you. you exist only via the written word of your anonymous profiles.

    so, keep it up. wont’ make your own lives better, and wont’ make our worse.

Leave A Reply