Comments

  1. Sargon Bighorn says

    I knew this sounded like a family dispute. However, when life is at stake, please DO CALL 9-1-1 first. Trying to get ahold of a spouse and asking for permission might lead to death. Lee the brother seems to have done the reasonable thing. Roger seems to be over sensitive.

  2. Kathleen says

    What I want to know is if that’s an acceptable procedure for security to assault someone: HITTING him to let him let go of the bed, rather than have someone: I don’t know a social worker or doctor try to talk to him. But I guess they don’t have people like that at a hospital. Or any kind of patient care staff. Or ombudsman. Nope, not at a major metropolitan hospital.

  3. Joe says

    Wrong about the brother being reasonable.
    The brother has had no contant with either of them since Dec. and direct quotes here”

    “Allen has specifically excluded his family from having any say over his medical decisions because they have not been understanding of the impact of his depression.”
    “Allen’s family has not been supportive of his relationship with Roger.”

    Amanda was taking care of Allen while Roger was at work at Tuesday, but when they returned home from a few errands, Allen’s brother Lee and sister Pat were waiting at the door with paramedics and police.
    Due to Allen’s sluggish state, the police determined he was a “danger to himself” and decided to take him to the hospital against his will. Rather than taking him to St. Luke’s Hospital in Lee’s Summit, the local hospital where his regular doctors are, they took him to the Research Medical Center in Kansas City, which he only goes to for his ECT. They ignored Amanda’s attempts to explain Allen’s medical needs and procedures.

    The brother called 911 after the husband left to work and even before visiting his brother after the fact.

  4. Robert Martin says

    While Roger may have become overwrought during the situation at the hospital the brother Lee should have stayed out of the situation. He stepped into a situation and then tried to take control of it and continued to escalate it. I am STILL going to take everything Lee says with a LARGE grain of salt being as this isn’t the first time that he has stuck his nose in Roger and Alan’s business. If Lee had been a true brother he would have called Roger and said “There is an issue here at home with Allen could you please come home” and then waited for Roger to get home and a decision be made before paramedics were called in. If anything Lee’s narrative is destroyed by the fact that Allen, when allowed to, asked for Lee to leave AND while in the hospital initially asked for ONLY Roger to stay. While, yes, this (at it’s core) is a family dispute that got out of hand, it wouldn’t have gotten to the point it did if Lee had kept his nose out of Roger’s and Allen’s business. Lee exacerbated the situation both at the house and at the hospital forcing the situation. On top of that RMC, by asking for proof of relationship (knowing it was in the file) only pushed matters further. Lee should have been told to leave the premises, NOT Roger.

  5. Robert Martin says

    @Sargon Bighorn, If you read Amanda’s account of what happened prior to Lee showing up you would understand that there WAS no 911 situation. Things were under control. Lee took it upon himself to escalate the situation with Roger at work. Allen’s life was, at no time prior to the incident in danger. Lee exacerbated the situation by creating an emergency that continued to escalate at the hospital. Those are the facts.

  6. jeff says

    I agree with the call 911 first, inform spouse next idea, but once your brother is in the hospital under care, with his spouse, your input should be helpful but not intrusive. You are not in charge, and have no rights. You brother or sister or child is married and or has assigned medical power of attorney to someone else and you have no right to argue or be belligerent. If a nurse asks you as a brother to leave, you need to leave. Simple simon. No argument. The right and responsibility to care for or direct care for your brother has passed to someone else. Go to the chapel and have a prayer, go to the cafeteria and have some coffee, but leave when instructed to.

  7. dattexas says

    The hospital should have asked Lee to leave, unless they perceived the Roger to be more belligerent. At some point, safety overrides everything. But I see this as being the fault of Lee. He’s the brother, not the partner. The hospital has recognized domestic partnerships for years. Sorry, but my brother will not be making decisions for me either. It will be my attorney in fact through a POA. Get out of the way, Lee.

  8. Joe says

    Here is the kicker, the 911 call was not required the situation was under control. The brother fabricated the emergency. During the hospital visit the brother was not asked to leave.
    “The nurse informed Roger that because of his agitated state, he needed to leave. When he explained that he intended to stay with his husband, she replied, “I know who you two are. You need to leave.” Refusing to acknowledge their legal relationship, she called the police to have Roger forcibly removed.”

    After the incident the brother was forced to leave by request from the patient to the nurse. Prior to that the patient requested that his husband stay, and the husband requested to the nurse to pull up the POA which is confirmed it was on file from previous visits.

  9. nick says

    I just put “reviews research medical center” into Google and within two minutes found two instances of hospital security assaulting patients without cause. It looks like a pattern there.

  10. Paul R says

    So they’re both drama queens. I’ve had strangers call 911 for me and not tell my partner first. They even took care of my dog. Why is this a story?

  11. Jack. says

    After viewing Lee Mansell, I think that the police should investigate him for meth use, and further investigate the angle that he was trying to get control of his brother’s finanances. That is looking more and more plausible as this unfolds.

  12. Maguitac says

    First – You always call 911. You never take chances with someone’s life. Whether you love them or not. Whether you agree with their lifestyle or not.

    Second, Lee seems quite contradictory. Even though he did the right thing in calling 911, he does seem a bit on the defensive in regards to his brother’s life partner. There seems to be a family background of hatred and the refusal to acknowledge the full extent of the relationship.

    And third, in an environment where gay issues are divided between extremes, resulting more and more in extreme retaliation, the hospital security overdid it. The first officers on the premises forgot to get proper information BECAUSE of the political present environment: Sometimes, the supposed assailants are actually the victims of ugly phobias, where those in position of power abuse their rights and make a situation worst for everyone.

    Personally, I’m still reeling when stories come out about hospital staff not allowing same-sex partners to be there for each other, whether in cases of injury or final moments before death: Are we positive those committing such inhumane acts of unkindness should be allowed working in HOSPITALS??

  13. Ratchet says

    The public needs to know the name of the nurse so that she can be investigated for membership in any anti-gay hate groups or other churches, and so that her background can be investigated for evidence of prior incidents or previously expressed anti-gay animus.

    Why hasn’t the nurse been named yet?

  14. Consider the possibilities. says

    Is it possible that Lee Mansell used to sexually abuse his younger brother and therefore feels jealous that his brother has found happiness with an older father-figure type man? Definitely a possibility to consider.

  15. Consider another possibility says

    Is it possible that the Mansell brothers were sexually abused by an authority figure who dressed up like a nurse?? This would definitely explain why brother Lee was so resistant to obeying the commands of the hospital nurse.

    As long as we are considering all possibilities, we really ought not leave any stone unturned. What is Lee hiding about nurses in his past?? Why is he not giving us direct answers?? Inquiring minds want to know.

  16. Lymis says

    I see some serious reading comprehension issues.

    “Always call 911 first”??!!

    The man wasn’t even home. He was out on errands with his stepdaughter, and he was fine. The brother didn’t even see him, but took it upon himself to call 911 and have everyone waiting for his brother when they got home.

    There’s no actual concern for his brother here. Other family members confirm it. And even if there were, the moment that Roger showed up, any input from Lee – including his presence – was legally required to end.

    If anything, BOTH Roger and Lee should have been escorted out until it was resolved. Leaving Lee there while forcibly removing Roger was inexcusable – and the hospital, the nurse, and Lee should all be sued into the Stone Age for this.

  17. Seth C says

    Let me see if I have this right. Just because a brother has depression, 911 needs to be called every single time he doesn’t pick up the phone?

    Seriously?

  18. RMc says

    The ONLY person who had a legal right to be in that room was Roger and the nurse had no legal right to tell him to leave no matter how “disruptive” she assumed he was being. This is his husband and he has a right to be angry. Period. No arguments.

  19. says

    When people on the “right” side of this issue — denying the need for marriage equality — actually say out loud that they don’t see why we have to call it marriage, this is case #1. The nurse, despite the fact that she knew who Roger was and was aware of the POA, called security when the patient’s husband would not leave the room, it demonstrated the need for full marriage equality. Can you image were Allen a woman that her husband would have been told the leave the room even if he had been arguing with his wife’s brother? No way, no how. But because Roger and Allen are men, the nurse, hospital security, and ultimately the police just automatically assumed that Roger had no right to be in the room and removed him. Roger should sue the hospital, the nurse, the police, and Lee. The hospital should lose its Federal funding, the nurse should lose her job, and the security and police who remanded Roger into custody should also. They all saw an opportunity to discriminate against a gay couple without recourse.

    The fact that this couple had done everything right: the POA, being known to their healthcare providers, repeatedly demonstrating their relationship meant nothing when at its most critical moment. No one would dream of asking a frantic husband for a copy of his marriage license when presenting his wife in an emergency situation (or any other, for that matter); why should a gay couple be forced to jump through the burdensome hurdles — only to have them denied at the critical moment?

  20. Joe says

    This sister is made a intresting quote about Lee’s reaction when the couple was planning to go on vacation.
    “Lee doesn’t care about Allen’s health. He was pissed that Roger was taking Allen on vacation. He made several very derogatory comments about Roger taking Allen on vacation that were distinctly homophobic. (along the limes of letting is brother get F* by 50 men on vacation)
    excuse my vulgarness in this quote.

    So the brother isn’t homophobic now?

  21. mary says

    I posted this yesterday. This came from the sister in law’s facebook page: “The story is not entiry accurate. My husbamd Joe (Allen’s 2nd brother) and I have always supported Allen and Roger as has Allen and Joe’s father. It’s only younger brother Lee and Pat who don’t support Allen amd Roger.”

    And a comment on her page: “Joe was mentioned in the linked article. Some OPs here noted that Lee waited until Joe left the area before trying to have Allen committed because they knew Joe would have objected.” She agreed with this comment.

    I’d say that contradicts Lee’s claim he was not homophobic and also that this was some kind of emergency.

  22. Paul R says

    Only Roger had a legal right to be in the room? What planet are you on? Kansas City isn’t exactly a hotbed of gay rights. He can call him his husband, but that’s in name only in Kansas City. There are no legal rights there. I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but it’s true. The brother has far more rights in a situation like that.

  23. Joe says

    Roger has full medical POA, that supersedes the brothers rights. As well as the patient requested his husband to stay as well.
    Additionally the president directed the Department of Health and Human Services to prohibit discrimination in hospital visitation which took effect in 2011, and it blankets federally.

  24. nonapologies says

    Whatever account of the story that has so far been given, I would say the hospital should shut up, get their lawyers, and come up with a settlement.

    Just from a legal stand point, as a lawyer, I am amazed that situations like t his arise. Where the hell is the hospital’s lawyers, and why are they letting them dig an even deeper financial hole by what clearly seems to be several violations of law.

  25. says

    @Paul R: You’re simply wrong, as Joe points out. Federal guidelines–even in MO–make it quite clear that Roger, as POA (on file at the hospital) and a civil union partner and at the request of the patient, was the only person designated to be in the room and making medical decisions for his husband. From all the current evidence, the brother, whether his intentions were good or bad, homophobic or not, had no legal right to be involved in any way, and the hospital should not have been involving him in Allen’s care. They have explaining to do.

    It’s not drama queen behavior to expect a hospital to honor the wishes you and your husband have in legal writing and on file at the hospital, and it’s not unreasonable for a husband to turn belligerent if the care guidelines you’ve carefully set up with your family are ignored. I can’t imagine how anyone who’s actually looked at the reports of what happened could consider this a non-story or simply a family squabble.

    More broadly, this case demonstrates the need for hospital staff (especially in non-equality states) to be educated on current law put in place by the Obama administration–until we have what is really needed, full federal marriage equality, so that when a gay couple enters a hospital (or anywhere else) and says that they are married, this is taken at the same face value that a marriage of a straight couple would be.

  26. Paul R says

    MO doesn’t recognize civil unions, so no I’m not wrong there. And PoA laws vary by state and often don’t include health care, especially for gay couples.

    I’m not defending the hospital in even the most remote way. But those are the crappy lack of protections we live with.

  27. says

    @Paul: I didn’t say MO recognized CUs, but federal regulations implemented by the Obama administration give gay couples distinct rights around visitation and medical decisions. That and the POA paperwork on file with the hospital and the wishes of the patient (who had been there before) should have all made it clear that Roger had the right to be making medical decisions whereas Lee did not. You also implied earlier that this was a non-story about drama queens, which seemed very odd given the circumstances.

    Much better to be in an equality state (this would almost certainly not have happened in my state) and best to have full federal marriage equality so that marriage is understood as marriage by everyone, but the idea that CUed gay couples with POA papers on file simply have to put up with having their wishes disregarded (even in a state like MO) and subject to the whims of hospital staff is simply not true in 2013.

  28. SC David says

    More information in dribs and drabs…we can only speculate as we know only pieces.

    If Brother Lee plans on making a hobby of this, perhaps a restraining order would be helpful. I assume, of course, that Research Medical Center Security could read such a thing. Maybe it says somewhere on their Barney Fife badges to do what nurses command first and then deal with the paperwork later. Hospital police are muscle for the nurses, do I have that right? Let’s hope the hospital loses big in the settlement–they’ve certainly dropped into CYA mode in their PR statements (as in, blame everything on the victims).

  29. Paul R says

    Also, if a state doesn’t recognize civil unions, then it doesn’t recognize them. I’m not sure how you overcome that by just wishing it weren’t the case. Again, I’m not endorsing it or anything the hospital did, obviously. But if those are the crappy (lack of) laws, they can get away with most of it.

  30. Billy Crytical says

    You can always count on other gay people to act like situations like this are random and offer little or no support to the gay couple. This stuff has happened before. You should know from experience that the brother only wants money and is trying to position himself so that his ailing gay brother can change his will to include him.

  31. says

    Wouldn’t any person denied access to his husband and medical decision making over him when you’d taken legal steps to make sure this didn’t happen be a drama queen? I sure would.

    Once again, there are federal regulations now that deal with the rights of gay couples in hospital situations; they apply to MO and all other states regardless of whether CUs are legally recognized in the state. Plus the POA, which this hospital was familiar with with this couple, had on file, and had honored before. Plus the wishes of the patient. Plus the hospital offers partnership benefits so they can’t legitimately make the argument that gay couples don’t count as family. In other words, though it remains to be seen what legal repercussions they will face, they won’t be able to sweep the rights of this gay couple under the rug, especially since the brother was definitely not designated as a family caregiver.

  32. EdA says

    Paul, it was PRECISELY because some hospitals decided that THEY would determine who was a patient’s next-of-kin, and not the patients themselves, and that THEY could and would exclude people whom the patient wanted around that in 2010 the Obama administration put forth rules that if a hospital wants to take Medicare or Medicaid money, it must let the patient determine who could make medical decisions for him or her and, in fact, that even if written documents were not available, hospitals should use common sense and not theology in making the determination.

    Incidentally, there is very extensive discussion on Americablog.

  33. Nelson says

    Well, he was right to call 911 if he felt his brother was in danger. It seems to me that the bigotry of the brother just turned the situation into a raw nerve in the room and that they got agitated. I am not going to judge the partner here at all, because the kind of distress he was under must have been horrendous – I know first hand from watching my own partner die 5 years ago from ALS, and having to remove life support when he could no longer breathe on his own. The brother could have been a lot more sensitive to just WHO was the POA in this case, in spite of his stupid bigotry. Hospital security however clearly went way over a line and also ignored a legal POA document. .
    In defense of nurses telling them to get out of the room, if that’s what happened. They were totally right to do so if the disturbance of them talking in heated tones was making THEM feel they could not do their primary job – caring for the patient. I, in fact, was told to just go home and sleep once when my partner was in ICU. The nurse was firm but not nasty, and she was right. I was getting too overwrought to be of any earthly good to anyone, and I actually made sure to thank her next day for keeping me in check on that one occasion I started to get really nutty. Nurses are saddled with impossible case loads, and the last damn thing they need is crazy people in a room preventing them from calmly doing their job.
    The hospital itself , and its security force, however, MUST be taken to task for the way it was handled that caused any injury. And the sick partner’s family……ugh. Horrid.

  34. ratbastard says

    This is a pretty typical family/domestic dispute. It’s only a gay issue in-so-far as gay couples can’t legally marry in most states or get civil partnerships, which removes them from the list of close family members. But of course there are other legal options like power of attorney and so-forth.

  35. ratbastard says

    It’s also not unusual in family disputes for unmarried heterosexual couples to be denied hospital visits to see their partner because they aren’t considered close family. I’m not a legal professional, but I suppose if it doesn’t already exist, there should be laws in all 50 states allowing such couples to legally designate their partners as close family members entitled to things like hospital visits and so-on.

  36. Yeek says

    Jamie:

    “Can you image were Allen a woman that her husband would have been told the leave the room even if he had been arguing with his wife’s brother? No way, no how. ”

    I’ve actually had several legal spouses, POA, parents, siblings, etc. forcibly ejected from the hospital over the years – most of them were straight, though I have ejected a gay spouse before.

    In all of these cases, the ejected individuals were disruptive, fighting, screaming at each other or patients or staff members and would not respond to requests to de-escalate. Basically, their own drama was more important to them than the patient they were visiting or the other patients in the area.

    Whenever medical care to one or several patients is disrupted by an angry, potentially violent situation (most fistfights begin with arguing, after all), patient safety trumps all legal arrangements (including legal marriage and POA). It is medically unsound to divert more and more health care team members (social workers, doctors) into a room after initial interventions by the nursing staff have failed. The chances of success are low, the chance of violence to more people increases, and the chance of OTHER patients not getting care they need goes up.

    The nurse absolutely did the right thing by calling security. She cannot be providing health care and legal counsel and mediation for her patients and their families. She asked them to leave, and they didn’t. And she’s absolutely right that a legal spouse or POA can be ejected if they are a danger to patients (even if they do not INTEND to be).

    Did security overreact? Sure, they may have. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that the POA was more threatening, more disruptive, and less cooperative than the brother when they arrived. This doesn’t make him a bad person, but it doesn’t make them homophobes either.

    I

  37. says

    That law already exists, @ratbastard, as has been pointed out repeatedly in relation to this story, and applies to all hospitals that take Medicare and Medicaid money. Gay couples have the right to designate one another to make medical decisions. In this case, it’s clear the husband was legally designated to make medical decisions and the brother was not.

    It is very much a gay issue because when married straight couples enter a hospital in any state in the country they have reasonable certainty that their relationship will be taken at face value whereas unioned/married gay couples have that certainty only in a handful of states. That family disputes arise often in relation to healthcare is irrelevant to this basic inequality, which must be remedied.

  38. enough already says

    This is so sad.
    I hope they can all find some means of getting along – and stay healthy enough to not need that hospital, ever again.

    It is interesting that the christers keep saying that we can take care of all our ‘friendship’ needs through POA and other legal documents, yet when push comes to shove, it is exactly the christers who always disregard them.

  39. ratbastard says

    @Ernie,

    Problem: gay marriages are only legally accepted in a small handful of states. The same applies to unmarried heterosexual couples. Some states don’t even recognize common law marriages.

    You mention medicare and medicaid, both of course federally funded. I assume Mr. Gorley handed in the correct paperwork. I do understand what you’re saying. At the end of the day, perhaps the hospital thought Mr. Gorley was in addition to the brother, being too disruptive, and kicked him out. This is not that an unusual thing to occur. Happens all the time, even with heterosexual couples.

  40. says

    And herein lies the problem: unmarried heterosexual couples are unmarried by choice whereas gay couples–in non-equality states–have no choice but to be unmarried. CUed and married gay couples and ones who have legal protections in place around their healthcare should not be treated the same as unmarried heterosexual couples, particularly in light of current federal regulations implemented to protect gay couples like Roger and Allen. And in this case, the couple had taken extensive precautions to avoid this very thing happening–if they had taken none, it would be a different story.

    I understand Yeek’s point about disruption and belligerence, which can easily happen in a heated medical situation, catching staff in the middle as they’re attempting to do their job, and that is the defense the hospital is going with. The question is whether the escalation would have occurred had the husband been given appropriate deference? In other words, did the hospital, because it neglected the legal orders on file, exacerbate the situation? Several of the people involved have given their version of events, but it remains to be seen how it will get sorted out.

  41. says

    Wow, you guys are all messed up. Do not comment on a personal story, this is clearly not a discriminatory issue.

    Getting into this story further means you are the problem. The way people here are demanding such action and repercussions for an unknown altercation between a stranger’s family. Hate to break it to you guys but all parties in this situation are allowed to do anything they want.

  42. says

    All discrimination comes with a personal story. So to ignore personal stories is to ignore discrimination. For any gay person with a rational mind, this story, whatever the exact circumstances, illuminates the larger issue of unequal protections for gay spouses in medical situations.

  43. jakeinlove says

    So this started out as an argument of when or who called 9-1-1? The only thing that matters is that someone called.

    Both parties should have been removed from the room.

  44. J. says

    LoL anyone else find it amusing Paul R and Fenrox are the two posters trying to dismiss the homophobia in this incident and brush the entire thing off, while lecturing concerned gay posters.

    Paul R and Fenrox are also the two posters who consistently defend anti gay slurs like f*ggot and “that’s so gay”

    These two self hating homophobes are a cancer, and hopefully they’ll get the same soon and be gone. Internalized homophobia is a disease and illness.

  45. Mike says

    This poor husband. The brother was out of line and had NO business being involved.

    Gay couples are treated like second class citizens.
    This is why we all need to fight for equality.

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