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Australian PM Kevin Rudd Destroys Anti-Gay Pastor on Marriage Equality: VIDEO


Australian PM Kevin Rudd delivered a smackdown to an anti-gay pastor questioning Rudd's position on marriage equality:

When confronted by a question from the Christian man, who quoted the Bible as stating it was clearly wrong in the eyes of God, he said: "People don't choose their sexuality, they are born that way.

"The idea this is somehow an abnormal condition is wrong."

Mr Rudd said homosexuality was not an abnormal condition and the Bible also said "slavery was a natural condition".

"If you accept it to be natural and normal to be gay then it follows it is not right for two folk who love each other to be denied marriage," he said.

He said the Bible was about "universal love, loving your fellow man".


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  1. While I applaud PM Rudd for his well-spoken rebuttal (when was the last time you heard an American politician speak like this?), and I understand that it isn't politically savvy to say this, but why do Christians feel like they have the right to codify their religious beliefs into secular law? That is an imposition of their religion on those who do not necessarily follow their faith.

    This sort of bigoted, self-serving arrogance needs to be pointed out REPEATEDLY. The law does not exist to impose your definition of morality on everyone else, and in effect force others to follow your religious beliefs. The law exists to provide justice, equality, and freedom, not take these things away simply because your feelings are "injured."

    As such, appeals to religion--e.g., "God is love"--may be persuasive to some people, but are ultimately just as illogical as anti-gay bigotry. The bottom line is that I'm not a Christian. Why should I have to have my legal rights limited in a way that is in accordance to the specific Christian ideology of anti-gay homophobes, just to appease their sensibilities? The very notion of doing so is a flagrant violation of the separation of church and state.

    Posted by: atomic | Sep 2, 2013 4:13:26 PM

  2. Bravo.

    Posted by: Michaelandfred | Sep 2, 2013 4:14:57 PM

  3. I'm always reading about people being "destroyed" by someone regarding gay marriage. Verbal smackdowns aren't what they used to be. Sorry, but Bette Davis is dead.

    Posted by: Ben | Sep 2, 2013 4:15:15 PM

  4. That's a "smackdown" that "destroyed" someone? Um.... Okay.....

    Posted by: J Y | Sep 2, 2013 4:40:06 PM

  5. I love the way he did answer the pastor! Bravo

    Posted by: nn | Sep 2, 2013 4:40:42 PM

  6. He could have simply asked the good pastor to quote, chapter and verse, the "words of Jesus" that he was referring to.

    Posted by: TampaZeke | Sep 2, 2013 4:47:06 PM

  7. The bible is a collection of the primitive beliefs, myths, mostly made up bloody history and some horrendous moral teachings of a people who thought diseases were caused by evil spirits and the world was flat. People on the right and left today, who pay that ancient tome any attention, use it as a cafeteria to pick and choose what they like. People on the right tend to pick the hateful things that they can use against their enemies and ignore the hateful things that apply to themselves. People on the left pick the warm fuzzy things that agree with their enlightened progressive ideas and ignore all the hateful things. We would all be better of if the bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon et al were in museums and given the same amount of attention and respect as we give to the Codes of Draco and Hammurabi et al.

    Posted by: andrew | Sep 2, 2013 5:20:23 PM

  8. @TampaZeke @nn: There's one thing the PM missed - the "leave their parents to be married" thing is in Genesis (e.g., in The Old Testament). Furthermore, if you look at a good translation, it will contain a footnote pointing out in the original Hebrew, the grammatic construction rendered as "therefore" relates an event in the past (i.e., the events in the creation myth) to a present day custom (present day from the standpoint of the writer). It basically says regarding marriage, "this is why we do things this way - some of our contemporary customs are designed to reflect some significant event in the past." It doesn't mean that the way we do things is set in stone and can never be changed. Rather it is like explaining why people wear green on Saint Patrick's day - an interesting aside but no more than that.

    The funny thing about these Bible-thumping Christians is that they don't even read their own bibles and in particular skip the translators' footnotes, which are sometimes critical for understanding the text.

    Posted by: Bill | Sep 2, 2013 5:31:41 PM

  9. This video should go viral. This is the head of a major country who is saying this. Not even Obama, or Cameron, or Hollande or .... has spoken so eloquently and persuasively, and certainly not directly and publicly to an anti-marriage-equality religious minister.

    As to some comments from readers about "why" so-called "Christians" feel they can turn their beliefs into laws for the rest of us, the only way to "combat" their views is to do what PM Rudd did here -- talk directly and publicly to them in their own language that they understand. Most of the time it will be impossible to persuade them; however, a large percentage of the time it may be possible to put some doubts in their mind and neutralize some of them who may back off from their aggressive, anti-gay rhetoric; and on a tiny percentage of occasions, it might even be possible to persuade some anti-gay Christians to change their views. So we need to keep talking and reasoning, just like PM Rudd has done, even if it will fall on deaf ears much of the time.

    Posted by: MiddleoftheRoader | Sep 2, 2013 5:32:13 PM

  10. I actually don't like it when people say we are 'born that way'. It suggests we have something that we can't control and puts us on a par with having autism or spina bifida.

    Male sexual feelings are indeed innate but they can be cultivated or curtailed by environment or choices.

    Posted by: Adamn | Sep 2, 2013 5:48:06 PM

  11. @ATOMIC...I repost this for you....

    The leading root cause of intolerance, bigotry, war (& homophobia)....

    Posted by: CB | Sep 2, 2013 6:05:48 PM

  12. By the look on his face he certainly felt smacked down.

    Posted by: Steve | Sep 2, 2013 6:23:15 PM

  13. Actually ATOMIC Rudds support for marriage equality will likely win more votes than it looses

    Rudds support seems to be a genuine conscience choice rather than a political calculation though - I suspect the opposition leader Abbott (who forces his party's MP's to vote against marriage equality which would otherwise easily pass a conscience vote) miscalculated in trenchantly opposing marriage equality but can't get out of the corner he's painted himself into (remind anyone of the Republican party?) into (heck even Abbott's wife and children disagree with him & publicly support marriage equality!)

    Posted by: James | Sep 2, 2013 6:45:55 PM

  14. I’m happy a world leader has the understanding and conviction to face such religious bigotry in times when others do exactly the opposite. That said, the “born that way” will eventually bring problems. Sexuality is not a choice, that part is right, but we are not born with it, it is framed and deeply wired in the very early period of infancy when we don’t have a decision to make by not very well known factors, so you can not build it on your children as parents either. But I get that the “born that way” is more useful as a shortcut, try to explain such subtleties to a religious mind.
    The problematic part is that therefore you will not find the “homosexuality gene or whatever”, because there isn’t one. Even worse, if the “born this way” becomes a cultural imperative, they could even misidentify a factor to be the “gay one”, no long after people may choose to not have those babies for that false belief. In the end it will show that it wasn’t but not without a cost that could linger generations. Sexuality is not black and white either, many do not have the “I can only like just one gender even if it cost my life” sexuality, so looking for a “gay” genetic or physical factor is dumb without noticing the nuances. It is culture what forces the black and white declaration before society.

    Posted by: SAYTHETRUTH | Sep 2, 2013 6:48:24 PM

  15. The PM does not know the bible interpretation for slaves, it is another name for servant. Servants served in their master's household and were treated with dignity and they got to live there and bring their family to live with them.
    They were loved and respected and got the opportunity to leave when 7 years ended but many choose to stay and serve out of love for their master's. This represents Christ as Master and true christians are His servants. We are in His household and He loves us and treats us with dignity and respect. We choose to love Him back.

    Posted by: Megs | Sep 2, 2013 8:40:59 PM

  16. God does not hate gay people, He does not hate anyone. What God hates is sin which is the act not the person because it hurts us. God's commands are good and if we kept them then society would also be good.
    When God condemns anything it is because He knows the harm that it will cause.
    God does condemn man with man and woman with woman because it will bring about harm. People are influenced by attitudes and behaviours...children will also be influenced by tolerance of a sin (act) and also the doing of it. This will lead to adecay in society.

    Posted by: Megs | Sep 2, 2013 8:47:38 PM

  17. @Megs: we now have some data that indicates that what people think "God" believes tends to track their own beliefs.

    Read for details.

    You should keep this in mind - even if you think the Bible was divinely inspired, that "divine inspiration" was undoubtedly filtered by human beliefs and prejudices, not to mention misconceptions at the time the Bible was written.

    BTW, at the time the Bible was written, they thought that sperm was like seed and a woman was like a field that would eventually produce crops (they didn't know about human eggs because those are microscopic). And they were surrounded with hostile tribes. They thought that any non-reproductive sexual activity on the part of a man was like a farmer throwing seed away during a famine - they didn't know that males generate sperm as opposed to having a fixed supply. Naturally (given the MRI data) they attributed those beliefs to "God".

    It is understandable that they had such misconceptions 4000 years ago, but to discriminate against people today on the basis of beliefs that were based on those misconceptions is crazy.

    Posted by: Bill | Sep 2, 2013 9:58:53 PM

  18. @MEGS: Try to sugar coat Leviticus 25, 44-46. "Slaves you may indeed possess provided that you buy them from the neighboring nations... such slaves you may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves". You should actually read what the bible says and not what you wish it said.

    Posted by: andrew | Sep 2, 2013 10:06:18 PM

  19. Regarding the "born this way" hypothesis, I think that Dr. Qazi Rahman makes a lot of sense in this article. It is a mix of genes (not one"gay" gene) and biological elements (i.e. hormones) that determine sexual orientation; it's neither a matter of choice nor "cultivation":

    Posted by: CP | Sep 2, 2013 10:18:20 PM

  20. @MEGS: Do you or any of your family or friends work on the Sabbath? Exodus 31, 15 " Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death". Do you just ignore that teaching?

    Posted by: andrew | Sep 2, 2013 10:29:30 PM

  21. As an Atheist, I find it amusing that Christians believe the "divinely inspired" words written by man over the words written by God himself (Exodus 31:18). If homosexuality was such a big deal to God, why didn't he write anything about it in the Ten Commandments? Or anywhere else for that matter.

    Posted by: Elwoodl | Sep 2, 2013 10:39:54 PM

  22. Sadly, all polls seem to show Mr. Rudd and his party will lose next weeks election. Marriage equality is not coming to Australia any time soon.

    Posted by: Ken | Sep 3, 2013 12:14:27 AM

  23. To think that this man might lose the coming election to Tony Abbott is unfathomable. Glad I will soon be emigrating.

    Posted by: Tristram | Sep 3, 2013 12:27:53 AM

  24. Seed is sperm. It also represents the children that will come from the sperm.
    It is amazing that sin also comes from the man through his sperm. The woman's blood never touches the baby...scientifically proven.
    The bible says that sin is in the blood and that it comes from the man...amazing for a book that was written thousands of years
    Also did you know that when God took Adam's rib, it grows back...amazing eh? How did they know that thousands of years ago without MRI?
    You'd think God knew what He was doing!

    No I don't keep the sabbath, the bible states it is a sign between God and the Jews forever and last I checked they are still keeping it.
    The new testament says that Jesus is our sabbath (rest) so I rest in Him from my works ( which means trying to earn God's favour).

    Leviticus ch 25 v 44-46 Good someone is reading their bible.
    God does not support slavery, not the kind of slavery we think of..if someone was going to starve or be homeless then their family or they themselves could sell themselves to be a slave or servant for food and housing.
    "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
    The bible is God's word to us inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by men in their own personalities, God allowed for that.
    God has wrote about homosexuality and as I wrote before God hates no one, For God so loved the world (that includes you) that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish (go to Hell) but have everlasting life (go to Heaven).
    Read Romans ch 1 v 22-32 for a start.

    Posted by: Megs | Sep 3, 2013 3:45:37 AM

  25. People both support and oppose marriage equality for reasons of faith and religion, but ultimately God and the Bible are irrelevant to secular law. You can share your personal beliefs if you like, Megs, but they nothing more than that, beside the point as public policy goes. Australia will welcome marriage equality, if not soon, then not that far down the road. Otherwise, they'll fall out of step with other civilized countries.

    Posted by: Ernie | Sep 3, 2013 5:10:26 AM

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