Andrew Sullivan And Rich Juzwiak Talk The ‘Brotherhood of Gay Sex': Audio

Gawker writer Rich Juzwiak recently guested on Andrew Sullivan's podcast and the two took part in a frank conversation about their feelings on gay men and sex. Sullivan describes their talk:

Juzwiak-banner1We actually talk about the sexual adventurism of gay men – a subculture where no women restrain sexual desire – as an often wonderful thing, regardless of the judgment that so many, including gay men, have made about it.

Juzwiak openly expressed his candid opinions:

"I know that there are consequences to being promiscuous, but I could never argue against it. I just really feel like its such a wonderful way to meet people and engender brotherhood, too. That's what I'm really into now. This feeling of brotherhood amongst gay men where I can go home with a guy and we can hang out in bed in the morning for hours naked fooling around talking, fooling around while we're talking. That I just think is just specific to gay sexuality."

Listen to a 2 1/2 minute clip, AFTER THE JUMP

Sullivan also points out that Juzwiak, who had discontinued taking the drug Truvada earlier this year, published a new piece on Gawker Wednesday wherein he explains why he's not only taking the pill again but encourages "all sexually active gay men who are negative should go on it, at least those who are in the highly populated gray area."

From the Gawker piece:

I try to be as nonjudgmental as possible when it comes to the behavior of other gay men (though I cannot refrain from judging those who judge). We are all in different places in life; we all enjoy different things. That variety is, in fact, what makes gay culture so vibrant. The choices at the disposal of those who are privileged enough to live in areas where gay is OK and where same-sex marriage is legal—these are part what make being gay so wonderful. But if you cannot deal with taking a single pill every day, you need to get a grip and reevaluate your life. After you do that, then just take the fucking pill.

The full podcast episode of the Sullivan/Juzwiak conversation is available (by subscription only) here

 

Comments

  1. Jeff says

    All of this is true. I lived this same life until I married my husband and it was great too. But what about Syphilis, Gonorrhea, HIV etc. Only fly in the ointment and it’s a pretty big bug.

  2. says

    @SayWhat – many. i’m living proof. :)

    i’ve met a great deal of my best gay male friends under otherwise sexually-charged encounters. a male-male system that is not afraid or ashamed of sexuality is capable of producing incredibly strong bonds and connections.

    casual sex need not be “empty meaningless sex”

    no shame about having met great friends from grindr. dudesnude. etc.
    what Juzwiak is describing is something a great many of us experience, and can relate to.

  3. Peter says

    It’s sad when some gay men explain that one of the reasons they’re happy about being is that they don’t have to deal with men. More than a little undercurrent of sexism and misogyny.

  4. says

    well, the way i see it, Peter, is i LOVE being gay because i get to be a part of a male-male system, where a great deal of us feel the same way about sex, and sexuality, and its expressions. that i have friends that i love, with whom i’m able to not only enjoy a sense of brotherhood and camaraderie, but expressions of sexuality, sensuality, affection, etc. and as we relate to it the same way, there’s very little “so, what does this mean now that we do this?” mindsets.

    laugh. bond. get off together on occasion. connect. swap stories. share adventures.

    not that all women are incapable of such things, nor that all gay men ARE – as many are not. for those who are, come to brooklyn 😉

  5. The Milkman says

    I’ve liked Rich’s work since he was doing Pot Psychology, so I’ve followed him for quite some time now. I think he’s missing the point about the pill. It’s not that taking a pill every day is such a huge deal. It’s the side effects. I took it for a month some years ago as part of post-exposure prophylaxis. The diarrhea was almost debilitating. I must say that when gay men choose not to go on preventative Truvada, it’s not always because they have a death wish.

  6. Nat says

    “Sorry. They don’t have to deal with women, who “limit” expressions of desire.”

    Agreed. But this is hardly new for Sullivan or Juzwiak. Sullivan may profess to be a marriage traditionalist, but it is apparent that he favours a regressive view of gay male sexuality and gender relations.

  7. saywhat says

    Littlekiwi

    if you end up sick in bed can you be 100% sure he will come visit you?

    a hookup/ acquaintance is quite different from a true friend

    a true friend isn’t just there for an orgasm or during the good times

  8. oncemorewithfeeling says

    Of all the people who I would not want to be The Face of Gay, these are two of them.

    The ironic thing is both of them are whores, only Sullivan’s is mostly of the mercenary pundit kind, now that his milky loads days seem to be behind him (you should pardon the expression).

    I don’t actually disagree with anything that the non-Sullivan has to say here, it’s just that he finds the creepiest ways possible to say them — which, of course, is an asset in a post-intellectual, dumbed-down soundbite world.

  9. says

    @SayWhat – i understand your confusion in that you have never experienced what I, and Juzwiak, and a great many other gay men have experienced, and continue to experience.

    you’re not able to reconcile them, you see them as mutual exclusives. we don’t. we live it, so we know it works.

    will i be sure “he” (there are more than a few HEs, btw…) will come visit me if/when I’m sick in bed? well, “he” (again, more than a few HEs) has. already. and is there for more than just orgasms.

    that’s the point.

    your comments just show that you, as of yet, have been unable to make a strong, bonded and loving connection with someone that contains elements of sex, sexuality, brotherhood, and love.

    i don’t have that problem.

    http://instagram.com/atticusbennett

    check ’em (me, us) out.

  10. saywhat says

    Littlekiwi

    Your instantly going into attack mode shows your smallness and lack of self esteem, thus the need to belittle others to make yourself feel better

    Sad

    If you personally are finding fulfillment in your hook ups then good for you

    Others prefer more intimate relationships

  11. says

    not really. you’re the one who says “oh, so will they be THERE FOR YOU WHEN YOU NEED THEM?!?!?”

    to which my answer is: Yes. So far, they have been. So far, so good.

    it’s as if you haven’t listened or read anything in here. you see “hookups” and “close friends and lovers” as mutual exclusives.

    thus – missing the entire point of all of this. i get it. you’ve never experienced it. many of us have.

    you can’t reconcile that a “hookup” can lead to an “intimate relationship” and that Intimate Relationships, themselves, exist in many different ways, still imbued with incredible meaning, connection, and LOVE – while perhaps not adhering to or appearing to be in the mould of the “traditional monogamous relationship”

    when you create a false binary between “hookups” and “intimate relationships” all you’re really doing is telling everyone that you, personally, have yet to experience that Brotherhood of Sexuality that comes (no pun intended….) when those two spheres OVERLAP.

  12. Josh M. says

    All of this presupposes a certain level of attractiveness, libido, responsibilities that can be put off, and free time (aka Youth). In the world I inhabit, many just don’t fit that bill. I must be old fashioned: I might play mind games, flirt and skirt the edges of acting out, but NEVER cross the boundaries between friendship and intimacy because I’m partnered and understand the potential for emotional wreckage. Kids these days… says a 36yo fuddy duddy.

  13. saywhat says

    “your comments just show that you, as of yet, have been unable to make a strong, bonded and loving connection with someone that contains elements of sex, sexuality, brotherhood, and love.”

    That is an attack

    as if I have not had your supposed wonderful experiences and don’t know what love is

    From my own personal experience and I stress my own experience which might be different from your own

    The less attractive a person and the lower the self esteem the more they need to hook up as often and with as many different people they can

    The higher the self esteem and the more attractive a person the less to do such.

    Whatever, this is the internet and both you and I can be talking out of our asses with no way to verify anything

    If you are happy with your life choices then more power to you

    My life choices are less into hook ups and longer singular relationships that make me happy and fulfilled

  14. says

    SayWhat – you have sand in your vagina about this. You have shown, in your comments, that you don’t understand how there can be overlap. I’m not “attacking you” by pointing out that your inability to see how those Spheres Overlapping exists merely shows that you’ve yet to experience it.

    if you’d experienced what I, Juzwiak, and many others are talking about you wouldn’t be constructing straw-man arguments denigrating what you don’t understand. it’s that simple.

    you asked if “they’d be there for me when i was sick in bed.”
    the answer is: yes, they’ve already done that. and i for them. and for many years.

    you create a false binary between “intimate relationships” and “hookups” – but that binary exists only in the minds of those who’ve never experienced the overlap. like you.

    and now you’re pretending you’re an attractive person. or something.

    sure thing, Blanche. 😉 i totes believe you’re a knockout looker with a satisfying love life. totes 😉

  15. saywhat says

    littlekiwi

    I can say you are pretending that your random hookups are fulfilling with no way for anyone to verify that unless they are your therapist

    Any certified therapist will tell you that a large number of sexual partners is the surest sign of you needing to work on something within yourself

    You do see a therapist I assume.

  16. Telly says

    Hey Saywhat

    “Any certified therapist will tell you that a large number of sexual partners is the surest sign of you needing to work on something within yourself”

    Prove it anonymous hall monitor.

  17. saywhat says

    @ Telly aka Littlekiwi

    a simple google search of multiple sex partners and psychology comes up with stuff like

    “It is comparable to, and may coincide with, behaviors such as heavy drinking, gambling, and other thrill-seeking behaviors like driving too fast.”

    It helps “them avoid dealing with other challenging emotional issues.”

    etc

  18. saywhat says

    oh and here is more

    “The majority of studies citing a relationship between mental health problems, including substance and alcohol use, and number of sex partners are correlational in nature. As a result, it’s impossible to tell whether people seek sex partners in an effort to “self-medicate;” in other words to reduce the emotional pain they are experiencing, by seeking sexual connections with others, even if fleeting. The correlation-does-not-equal-causation problem in these studies also means that people with a high-risk lifestyle both seek sexual liaisons and substance use either because they have impulsive personalities or because they are anxious and depressed.”

  19. says

    define “large number”, “SayWhat”

    anyone would have a large number of lovers, when compared to (i’d wager…)

    you keep saying, again, “random hookups” – so i’m guessing you didn’t actually listen to this podcast or read any of the comments. my hookups, after our years spent together as friends and more, can hardly be called “random” at this point.

    i get it. you were never able to hookup. and in the off-chance you had one, it never developed (as Juzwiak, myself, and countless others have attested) into something MORE. mine have. in many beautiful ways. some became incredible platonic friends. others incredible not-exactly-platonic-all-the-time friends. we love. we hang. we enjoy our sexuality together. because we understand ourselves, and each other.

    it’s not “hookups” VS “intimate committed monogamous relationships” – it’s the overlap in between. which only one who’s never experienced said overlap would denigrate or deny.

    mic. drop.

    http://instagram.com/atticusbennett enjoy.

  20. Cheese says

    SayWhat

    The pathologization of sexuality has caused detriment to those who are variants of heterosexuality, and obviously to yourself.

    I feel bad for your Cats, whom you obviously smother with artificial attention.

    Get another hobby hall monitor.

  21. says

    textbook psych would suggest rather, SayWhat, that you’re adopting this stance to pretend that you’re happy, rather than the human nature reality that you’re choosing to lash out at something you couldn’t have, even if you wanted it.

    your every comment belies that you don’t understand how there can be an overlap of sex, friends, love, lovers, brotherhood, and intimacy and connection.

    i don’t have that problem.

  22. saywhat says

    Good for you littlekiwi

    Juzwiak is supporting promiscuity, his own words

    and per

    A report on Psychology Today indicates some individuals become promiscuous as a means of reassurance. can be a way of shutting off feelings, or an unconscious repetition of childhood trauma. Often it’s connected to drug or alcohol problems.

    facts are facts. Take it up with your therapist

  23. says

    or, we’re like-minded liberated gay males in 2014 who came out when we were teenagers, and are able the embrace fiercely loyal friendships, bound in love and understanding, that still contain elements of sexuality – and the mutual sharing of our sexualities, together. love. pleasure. affection. tenderness. brotherhood.

    i get it. you’ve never experienced it. you’ve never had a hookup that became something more. you’ve never had a close loving friendship with another gay man that also contained elements of mutual shared sexual attraction, understanding, and enjoyment.

    i have. juzwiak has. many have.

  24. saywhat says

    telly aka littlekiwi

    seek a therapist

    Your constant switching screen names to support your own argument is a sign of you needing help

    I would also say that your posting your life online and demanding others check out your blog etc is another sign of your needing a therapist. Mentally healthy humans don’t post their life online

  25. =Telly says

    “Mentally healthy humans don’t ….

    Cherry pick obviously non-facts to support their void argument that liking sex is somehow bad or indicative of mental unhealth.

    I GET IT. YOU HAVE MOMMY ISSUES !

  26. says

    i’m not tell. i’m little kiwi – raymond. i share what i share because unlike many in our community, i have the privilege to be able to do – no insecurity. same reason Juzwiak is talking about it.

    many gay men are terrified of people knowing that they’re gay. or the lives they lead.

    i’m not one of those terrified gay men. so, i do what i do – from a place of visibility. because i can. and i remember, as a teen, scouring the web for guys who’re doing what i’m doing – living their lives, on their own terms, with not a f**k given to what a hater may think.

    telly is not me. i am not telly.

    i’m sure you’d like us all to believe that you’re a bonafide knockout sexy handsome man with a thrilling love life.

    sure thing, Blanche. just remember – people whose sex lives are enjoyable don’t spend that much time insisting that the sex lives of others must be less enjoyable.

  27. saywhat says

    telly

    there is a huge difference between liking sex and seeking multiple partners

    your sex life must be very shallow and unfulfilling if you do not know the difference

    seek therapy

  28. saywhat says

    littlekiwi

    yet you are doing just that

    “people whose sex lives are enjoyable don’t spend that much time insisting that the sex lives of others must be less enjoyable.”

  29. says

    ohhh, this is now that thing where a guy who can’t land one man is upset at those who can land as many as they choose to.

    saywhat, do you exist just to prove me right all the time?

    it’s come full circle – you simply don’t understand that there’s an overlap of sexuality, love, friendship, loyalty, trust, and sex.

    we get it. you’ve never experienced it. and to deal with having never experienced it, you create a falsehood about the lives of those who can. duly noted.

  30. =Telly says

    Saywhat would never go to a “straight” blog and talk down to heteros who like and love sex and seek partners for that.

    Oh no no no.

    Like any true self hating closet case, he saves all his bitterness for gay people.

    Gay people, in the closet cases eyes, don’t exist in reality and have real world bonds, they’re just TEMPTED DEVILS with no boundaries.

    BRO

    You have to come to grips with gay sex. That’s all. GET OVER IT !

  31. saywhat says

    littlekiwi

    go on thinking whatever you wish. You obviously live in a world of your own making

    call me blanche again or whatever , which is a sure sign of immature psychological development

    seek therapy

  32. saywhat says

    telly

    multiple sexual partners does not mean one loves sex

    not having multiple sexual partners does not equal not loving sex

    your logic is flawed

  33. Wayne says

    Totally agree with this audio post & totally agree with KIWI!!!
    Some of my best friends started as hookups and I love just hanging out afterwards (or before) and making a new friend from another walk of life.

    Also, it says a lot about a person who shoots down other peoples testimonials because they think life is full of absolutes and their opinion is absolutely correct (i.e. SayWhat). So sad ‘SayWhat’ can’t open his mind/heart. Just glad I’m not him :)

  34. saywhat says

    telly

    I came out at 16 and yes went through a promiscuous stage at that time. For me it was unfulfilling

    My personal fulfillment has been found in intimate loving of 1 man and being loved by 1 man

    You and littlekiwi have different experiences. Fine, enjoy yourselves. But please be safe

  35. my2cents says

    lol, Lil’ Kiwi: Rich isn’t in my network (sexually or otherwise) but i’m pretty sure he’s within yours.

    the weekend’s quickly approaching,
    you know somebody
    who knows somebody
    who knows somebody
    that knows Rich.

    and there is the venn diagram that shows that folks who are in a posting on most websites read the comments.

    there’s a social-media-licious overlap between them and the folks to scour the folks who comment and receive satisfaction from playing cat and mouse which those that respond to them.

    as always, please keep us posted.

  36. says

    SayWhat – problem is, you didn’t come in here to say “good for you” – you came in here to …oh, who are we kidding? you came in here to vent because you couldn’t get f***ked if you fell ass-first onto a cock factory.

    you have straw-manned, you have avoided actually understanding anything being discussed, you have create false dichotomies, and you have proven that you’ve never know the overlap of love, friendship, camaraderie, and the “gay brotherhood of sex” in question.

    quel freakin’ surprise.

  37. Brandon H says

    I must not be getting the memo, because the casual sex he describes is rarely fulfilling or worth the risks to me and it most certainly doesn’t foster “brotherhood”. I don’t mix my friend circle and sex though.

  38. Zlick says

    I think I’d like to experience this brotherhood of gay that seems to be inspired by hook-ups with really cool dudes. But alas – I’m not really the hook-up type and never have been (and I’m decidedly past the Sell-By date that most hook-up apps would facilitate). More important, I’m in a strictly monogamous relationship with a man I hope to spend the rest of my life with. I personally wouldn’t be that strict about it, but that’s his desire – and so that’s the way it’s going to be.

    Is there any good way to get the gay brotherhood without the sex?

  39. saywhat says

    littlekiwi

    No, I questioned his “brotherhood” comment

    You went into attack mode, i became defensive

    We went back and forth longer than we should have

    Should I have dropped the subject a long time ago? Yes probably

    Should you learn to not attack people right off the bat? yes probably

    We both could learn a thing or 2

  40. says

    @New – i give you three snaps in a Z-formation.

    it is a brotherhood – for those able to embrace it. as i said, in my first comment, a male-male system that is not afraid of nor ashamed of sexuality – hookups have become friends, and some have remained lovers, and our bond is strong, and these are men who’ve been there for me, and i there for them, for a great many years now.

    “how did you guys meet?”
    – i usually say, really, “the same way a lot of gay guys meet” :)

  41. Zlick says

    I don’t get this whole argument, or at least its fierceness, between Kiwi and SayWhat. Sure, there are many guys who have perfectly healthy hook-ups and play time with buddies, and do so from a healthy space.

    Just as there are other guys – and so far SayWhat is indeed producing evidence of it – who participate in this via pathology.

    Anecdotaly, the two guys I know who are constantly hooking up are the two most messed up guys I know and are textbook cases of doing it via pathology. I don’t extrapolate to say that’s how it goes for everyone – but the evidence seems to point to it being at least somewhat common.

    So, um, cant’ we just admit that both experiences exist in hook-up culture, and leave it at that?

    Oh, and if anyone in L.A wants to help out with some affectionate gay brotherhood without sex, …. oh, wait, there’s no message function here on TR. Oh well.

  42. says

    Zlick – might say more about the people you know than it does about anything else. My crew? we’ve been Out since we were teens. We come from families that don’t shame sex, and we forged our own identities – and live our lives on our own terms.

    what’s say what saying except for “i’m saywhat! i don’t get it! i don’t get it at all!”

    newsflash – blanche doesn’t get it.

    Zlick – what do *you* not get? that saywhat argued against his own strawman arguments rather than addressing anything actually being addressed?

    it’s as if some gay men can’t fathom that other gay men out there are more well-adjusted in their embracement of their sexuality (sexuality, not just orientation) than others.

  43. Zlick says

    Personally, I think SayWhat seems a little uptight about this, at least from his posts – but I won’t judge a person by random posts on the internet.

    Yet he DOES provide quotes from some studies, and I know people who fit that bill to a T. So, I merely assume both healthy and unhealthy hook-ups exist in the world. I don’t think that’s a newsflash. But I also think it’s cause to maybe tone down the argument – but of course, I take that back since it’s really none of my business.

  44. anon says

    Oh yeah, gay sex is great and all, until it stops suddenly at age 40 and you’ve got 40 years yet to live. Enjoy it while it lasts since no one will touch you if you’ve got a gray hair on your head.

  45. Just_a_guy says

    Mostly yawn. Hmm. No strong opinion on this one. Reknowned gay and gay-affirmative psychotherapist Joe Kort (writer of “10 smart things gay men should do,” and other tomes) has written something to the effect of:

    It is a form of societal abuse on gay men to perpetrate the lie that gay men are simply satisfied with tons of permiscuiity, ie the lie that men in general really just want unrestricted commitmentfree sex and that accordingly gay men should go get all they can get because they can.

    But heck, maybe Dr. (?) joe Kort is wrong. Maybe Dr. kiwi and Dr. Sullivan and Dr. juz have better credentials. Or maybe credentials don’t matter.

    I don’t regret the great sex I’ve had. But I am almost certain I’m not alone in as often wondering after a hookup: is that all? Why did I bother?

    I have no comment for kiwi or say what. I remain resultely appreciative of Rich Juz’ public examination of his interior/personal life. And I have some residual respect for ASullivan for his intellect and analysis despite his politics.

    Yes, we should celebrate the joy in our sexual moments. I’ve been there and got the tshirt, Juz and Kiwi. I just want something more for myself I guess. Dunno why. And by saying so, I hope to be conveying mere honesty–not judgment.

  46. says

    Is there some cognitive dissonance happening here wherein some of y’all are missing the part about how it’s not about “random Hookups” but about ONGOING RELATIONSHIPS?

    Yes. There clearly is.

  47. my2cents says

    hey, thanks everybody!

    there ain’t no buzz-kill like self righteous or defensiveness…
    (i assure you, i own my own).

    that said: different stokes for different stores.

    the best thing, IMHO, that can result from this ongoing (Truvada) debate is that folks take a non-social-media minute, or nano second and be honest about who ‘think’ there are,
    ‘see’ themselves as being, and their social network / spectrum of ‘relationships’.

    Be honest about who and where you are…
    and allow yourself anon-judgemental view of that perception morfing as space and time ebb and flow. respond in the manner that best suits your personal preference/experience at a particular time.

    until then, Mind your own house/business.

    and If you want to lead, lead by example.

    I don’t dwell in your body, therefore i have no experience in what it feels’ like and that lights its fire; nor should i. and honestly, i really don’t care.

    i do wish you the utmost of happiness and health; but recogognize that it’s not my business to define that for you.

    a MahaSwami once offered:

    Everyone has their own truth; Please be as honest as you can.

    no need to whore shame prep or preferred behavior patterns.
    be who you are, do what you want and be forth coming with it in appropriate situations. win-win for everyone concerned.

    if you’re not comfortable with whatever with whoever, wherever, move along — in either direction.

    again, be as honest as you’re able, and aware that others you meet might not extend you that courtesy.

    isn’t that the least you can do for your Self and the ‘brotherhood’?

    the ‘lord’ (whoever He is) helps those helps themselves.
    god (or who/whatever) save the Queens (and the plethora of human relations) from their and their cornucopia of relationships.

    i may not agree or may not disagree with Lil’Kiwi’s philosophy and practices, but i respect his right to have and live them.

    as for the other’s who git riled up on this thread, there might be an underlying ‘shadow’ reason…
    something to contemplate, just maybe.

  48. m.r. says

    It all sounds a bit idealized to me and I’m not sure how real it is. I just recall some of Juzwiak’s prior writings on Gawker when he was exploring his sexuality and none of it sounded as mature and well adjusted as he presents himself here.

    A lot of his sexual activities he wrote about involved the use of party drugs & other substances. If things are so wonderful and you’re really connecting then why would you need it? He also seemed to have a lot of negative feelings like guilt and regret afterwards.

    Some of it sounded silly and immature like the time he went to Disney with his sister and he just had to hook up with a stranger there and sneaked away from his family to have sex in a bathroom with this random while they were doing amusement park stuff. YOu’d think an adult male over 35 would be able to wait and not have to give in immediately to all his sexual impulses.

    Then he had the story about a guy that he actually connected with some guy that he decided he loved or so he wrote. But when the guy told him his cancer had returned, Rich proceeded to have sex with every stranger he could find. After each of these encounters he’d come back to cancer guy to get absolution or something.

    It all seemed a bit depressing to me at least so unless his sex life has changed dramatically, I’ll take what he says with a grain of salt.

  49. Beef Jerky says

    And to think I used to admire Rich Juzwiak for his writing — when he was blogging about his boyfriend’s cat Winston and making fun of America’s Next Top Model…

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