Mock ACLU Nativity Scene features “Gary and Joseph”


In an attempt to expose the “extremity” of the ACLU, the University of Texas Chapter of The Young Conservatives of Texas has installed an unusual nativity scene on that university’s Austin campus to be on display at least through today. A handy explanation is provided on the YCT website:

“We’ve got Gary and Joseph instead of Mary and Joseph in order to symbolize ACLU support for homosexual marriage, and of course there isn’t a Jesus in the manger,” said Chairman Tony McDonald. “The three Wise Men are Lenin, Marx, and Stalin because the founders of the ACLU were strident supporters of Soviet style Communism. The whole scene is a tongue-in-cheek way of showing the many ways that the ACLU and the far left are out of touch with the values of mainstream America.”

So same-sex parents can’t have a child, eh? A terrorist shepherd and an angel with the face of Nancy Pelosi also feature prominently.

Said Executive Director Joseph Wyly: “The ACLU and other left-wing extremist groups are working diligently to destroy American’s rights to the free expression of religion. We’ve already seen in Chicago an attempt to censor the nativity by a city government this week. It’s just more evidence that there is a War on Christmas being waged by the far-left in this country.”

Now that’s the wingnut Christmas spirit. However I don’t think “the values of mainstream America” they’re trying to promote necessarily agree with those of the Saviour they’ve chosen to exclude.


  1. Rad says

    They forgot Fred Phelps! Ex-ACLU attorney! Oh, perhaps there was not enough room to show both sides of the equasion on the cresh.

  2. Jonathon says

    The sad thing is that the ACLU would probably represent these creeps if their “nativity” display were to be prohibited by the university.

    Are all conservatives idiots? Or just the ones from Texas?

  3. jimmyboyo says

    great point, Jonathon.

    Rush Limbaugh who hates the ACLU sure did love them for a few minutes when they came to his defense in his drug case.

  4. Kamasutra Jones says

    No, not all conservatives are idiots. Many are not, in fact. As with any political ideology, it is the ones on both fringes that cause the most strife. On one hand, the ACLU on the other are right-wingers like this. I’m a gay atheist and I have no problem seeing nativity scenes and menorahs in parks, but I guess I’m in the minority. Oh, and I’m a conservative, too.

  5. Larry says

    I’ve always said that those people who use Jesus’ name to espouse their hatred are in complete contradiction of what he preached. To those who ask like “What Would Jesus Do?,” I say “Probably be less hate-filled than you.”

  6. EireKev says

    “I have no problem seeing nativity scenes and menorahs in parks, but I guess I’m in the minority.”? Minority? Really? Surely not?

    As a suggestion, Andy, would you be able to set up polls on the website? I’d love to know people’s opinions on the “issues of the day” etc.

  7. Blair says

    Fuckin’ A!

    I hate it when my fellow Texans act like jackasses.

    What a bunch of cocksmooches.

  8. Jake says

    I attend the University of Texas at Austin and stopped by to see their display.

    To answer your question: no, not all Conservatives are stupid, and no, they’re not all from Texas – but it is hard to avoid the plain fact that the YCT has a high idiot-to-Conservative ratio.

  9. says

    I work at UT – about 300 yards from where this photo was taken. It isn’t there now – I headed over there right after I read this. I didn’t see it yesterday, either — ‘course, I don’t usually walk that direction and I wasn’t actually looking for it. They probably take it down in off hours so that it doesn’t get trashed (this is Austin, after all).

    The Young Conservatives of Texas are one of the most ridiculous organizations on this campus. They publish an annual list of the “10 most dangerous professors at UT” – their first year out, the list included a professor for the offense of telling a (note the singular) Bush joke in his “Slavic Origins of the Vampire Myth” class. Are you shaking in your boots yet? I am.

    Yet more proof that it’s YCT who are out of touch with reality, not the ACLU …

  10. mark m says

    So many ironies, so little space to post…..

    An extreme political faction (neocons) errect a blasphemous Nativity scene (it’s ok to deface the iconography of Christmas as long as it’s your spoof, huh?), to denounce another extreme political faction (ACLU), which as an organization stands for freedom of expression and would defend these loons in court.

    It’s like when flag burners burn the American flag. They are defacing the very thing that represents their freedom to make such a statement.

  11. Jake says

    I attend the University of Texas at Austin and stopped by to see their display.

    To answer your question: no, not all Conservatives are stupid, and no, they’re not all from Texas – but it is hard to avoid the plain fact that the YCT has a high idiot-to-Conservative ratio.

  12. Crixi Van Cheek says

    Wait, lemme get this straight (no pun intended)… some Jewish girl gets pregnant and blames it on a ghost. Uh-huh.
    Then the kid gets into politics, pisses off all the wrong people and ends up getting the death penalty. And all this morphs into “The Greatest Story Ever Told”.
    Then, this cult forms to follow in the “Footprints” of this prince of peace by waging more wars than any other religion in the history of humanity. Flash forward to present day, where we have a Coked up, alcoholic Jesus groupie in the White House claiming that he is does not support torture, all the while worshipping a God that allowed his son to be nailed to a cross to atone for some one elses mis deeds. Right, what parent would idly stand by, watch there kid get tortured and slaughtered, and then go “Oh yeah, thats a blessing! That outta cleanse the sins of the rest of you cretons” ??? Unwed mothers, torture, murder and a codependent blood bath, and they say liberals are out of touch?!!!

    Merry Cryst Meth!

  13. Ken Anderson says

    Kamasutra: Gay, atheist AND conservative? You may be a minority of one :)

    More seriously, while I’m not particularly bothered by nativity scenes, I completely agree with the ACLU’s stance that they shouldn’t be displayed on government property. If people want to see creches, they can put them up in their yards and in their churches. Not everyone in this country is a Christian, so as far as I’m concerned, Christian symbols and government don’t mix.

    The whole war on Christmas thing is a joke, and just makes conservatives look stupid. I hope they keep talking about it – then maybe more people will see through their bullshit.

  14. Matt says

    I really don’t have a problem with it. They are allowed to express themselves just like we are. If we deny them this right then we are no better than those who wish to surpress our rights. I personally do not like the ACLU since they begin defending “the rights” of NAMBLA (North American Boy Love Association). This is the article to support my opinion . I think that once the ACLU did a lot of good but I believe that time has passed as it has aged and become more bureacratic.

  15. John T says

    If I was a Christian, I’d probably be really offended. I’m not — I’m more likely to be seen writing a check to the ACLU than dropping money in a church collection plate — and I think this display is really funny, because it satirizes both Christianity and right-wing paranoia. Way to go, young Republicans.

  16. burnssuit says

    This display is so extreme it’s actually pretty damn hilarious. However, Jesus was probably born in a cave, rather than a man-made building. You’d think they’d capitalize on this, perhaps with an Osama Jesus?

  17. burnssuit says

    And does anyone else feel that the Karl Marx wise man holding the book labeled “child porn” is the centerpiece of the collection?

  18. Bryce says

    Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with this other than the fact that it isn’t really funny at all, even to who it is catoring to. I could appreciate it if they were a bit more clever. Now, if this was a left wing demonstration it would be much funnier because they have funnier material to work with. Ann Coulter would be one of the cows, the KKK would be the 3 wise men, and Mary would be dressed up as June Cleaver with baby Jesus wearing a page uniform. Maybe have George Bush as Harrad off to the side with dead babies in soldier uniforms surrounding him. Now, that’s funny.

  19. Zeke says

    My god, I am stunned by some of the commenters over the last two days.

    First we had Mike on the Reichen/Lance breakup discussion linking to an article in the extremely right wing, viruently anti-gay, Sun Myung Moon owned Washington Times, to support his claim that gay people don’t have long term relationships.

    Then today, we have Matt linking us to a story in the equally right wing, equally anti-gay, fundamentalist Christianist website WorldNetDaily to prove that the ACLU supports NAMBLA. He fails to point out that the same people who make this claim also claim that Matt (who I assume is gay) and every other homosexual support NAMBLA and are particularly prone to pedophilia.

    Anyone who knows me knows that I am very open minded about gay conservatives and gay Republicans (having been one once upon a time) but it is truly frightening to me that there are gay people who actually believe that the Washington Times and WorldNetDaily are legitimate sources to use when researching issues related to homosexuality OR liberalism.

  20. rudy says

    Or virtually any other subject Zeke. Their looney Mooney bias is pervasive. The Washington Times is a joke in DC. Most get the joke some become the joke.

  21. Zeke says

    Bryce, it’s hard for these particular types of conservatives to be clever.

    To be fair it would be hard for anyone, regardless of their creativity and talent, to be clever if, like these guys, they were one trick ponies with such limited material to work with.

    All these guys seem to have in their creativity bag is homophobia and gay marriage and frankly, they’ve done them to f’n death.

    There’s only so much you can do with the “Adam and Steve” schtick. Yeah you can change it the “Joseph and Gary” or “Romeo and Julius” or any of a thousand other combinations but really, to those who are to the left of Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell, it’s getting really old and it just isn’t very funny.

  22. patrick nyc says

    With real wars going on in Iraq and Afganistan it is beyond insulting to use the term “War on Christmas”. Get a fucking life.

  23. PJ says

    …and yet, if anyone dared to put up a nativity scene mocking Christian beliefs, you can bet Hell would be unleashed. These guys are treading on some dangerous territory. It’s proof that some Southern conservatives are so blinded by a fear of other viewpoints that they’re undermining their own platforms.

  24. jim says

    What war on Christmas? I’m gay, married to a man (legal in Canada) and love Christmas.

    Of course mine is the GAY Christmas. Keep Jesus out of it, and layer on the decorations.

    C’mon is there anythign more gay and religious than Barbra Streisand singing “Ave Maria”?

    And just to cut to the answer, I’ll tell you now, Clay Aiken singing “Silent Night.”

  25. jimmyboyo says

    “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches” Benjamin Franklin

    “All manner of foolishness has come about under the ABSURD doctrine of the divinity of jesus” John Quincy Adams

    “The priests of every age are the enemies of liberty” Thomas jefferson

    “A just government founded on liberty has NO need for the cleregy” James madison (co-authored the constitution)

    The money of the founding fathers said “Science and Industry” in g we trust was put on US money in the late 1890’s hundreds of years after the founders. G in the pledge was put in in the 1950’s as a bit of anti-communist propaganda.

    A non founding father but never the less GREAT president Abraham Lincoln said “Christinaity is NOT my religion nor the bible my book, its doctrines are too convoluted.”

  26. Leland says

    EXACTLY, Zeke. Towleroad continues to be infected with the Moron Virus. Its symptoms include the appearance such posts as those quoting pillars of the American Taliban such as “The Washington Times,” and, now, World Net Daily. Make that not MY world! As one of the most homohating of Internet sites spreading lies and half-truths about us 36-24-7, they are in many ways worse than the WTimes because they are concentrated, neatly packaged propaganda more user friendly than a newspaper site.

    Were I an attorney, I would not represent NAMBLA nor neo-Nazis nor these “nativity scene” creatures, but the case referenced in the article was, at its core, about the First Amendment and the attempt of plaintiffs to ignore its protections in order to sue the organization in relation to the murder of a child.

    Wierd Net Daily’s “Special Offers” include:

    “How the homosexual agenda affects your family”
    “How homosexuals hoodwinked Supremes”
    “The Marketing of Evil: How Radicals, Elitists, and Pseudo-Experts Sell Us Corruption Disguised as Freedom,” complete with an endorsement by Dr. Laura and a blurb that begins:
    “Americans have come to tolerate, embrace and even champion many things that would have horrified their parents’ generation – from easy divorce and unrestricted abortion-on-demand to extreme body piercing and teaching homosexuality to grade-schoolers.”

  27. says


    It’s funny that they make a point of putting the 2 guys as opposed to mary & joseph. Don’t these brainwashed fools believe that their god “did” mary and begat jesus?

    Apparently, joseph shouldn’t EVER be included in this scene. The “perfect” family… mary, spook & jesus.

  28. Matt says


    You obviously don’t believe that is a legitmate source. There were other sources but I just listed one. I don’t understand where you get off saying I’m conservative. If having a distain for men who have sex with boys is conservative, I suppose I am then. I just don’t see how an organization can support something that is wrong. Even if the source is conservative, and that same source has a bias by saying that homosexuals are bad/evil and child predators as well, there is still truth in the fact they NAMBLA should not be supported or defended by anyone because they have no rights because they are breaking the law. Zeke, also you go on about my viewpoint but never state yours. What do you think about the nativity scene? Do they have a right to put it up? What are your thoughts on the ACLU? What are your thoughts on the ACLU defending NAMBLA members? It is hard to debate you when I’m not aware of your viewpoints.

  29. Cory says

    Jimmy, thanks for the quotes. I am (quite) shocked that I didn’t know those were said by our founding fathers, guess I’m ignorant after all lol. I wish I knew of them ahead of time as they would have come in handy during a debate about religious persecution, the foundations of the United States and the stance traditional conservatives take in supporting christianity/catholicism as a founding factor. Very interesting isn’t it…

  30. David says

    It seems like Matt is getting ganged up on here. I’m with him on the fact that they have a right to put this display up. It’s free speech. That doesn’t sound too conservative to me. A conservative as we have seen in the Bush administration has tried to quash free speech. If this was a gay nativity scene done by gay students and the evangelicals wanted it down we would all be up in arms. As far as the World Net Daily, Matt probably didn’t choose the best source, but I have heard about it on CNN and agree that it is very odd that the ACLU is helping out of group of NAMBLA members. I think the ACLU is kind of like HRC with gay men. You either like them or you don’t. I love this blog and the discussions that take place but let’s keep the discussions civil gentlemen.

  31. Daniel says

    The ACLU is not defending NAMBLA–they are expressing NAMBLA’s right to express their ideas and opinions. I don’t like many of the groups and people the ACLU defends but I believe they are doing great work. In America we have freedom of expression and that means we have to allow people to say things we don’t like. They have done great work for the GLBT communities as well as many others in all areas of the sprectrum and I will continue to support them.

  32. Leland says

    Repeat after me:

    “Private property: display this as you will [however fascist and dishonest and retarded it might be].

    “Public property [which would include the Univesity of Texas if it receives any ‘public’ money]: get the fuck out of here!”

    Class dismissed.

  33. Kamasutra Jones says

    Um, the “American Taliban”? When was the last time women in this country were forced to wear burqa’s? NEVER. Please stop using this phrase. First, it’s wrong. Second, if you think the media is conservative or liberal, you’re wrong. The media is about one thing, and one thing only, their own power. Pure and simple. They’ll take on whatever cause they wish, as long as it furthers their own power. And third, it’s SO three years ago!

    And yes, the ACLU defends NAMBLA. They are a LEGAL organization. Therefore, they defend. They defend a heinous and disgusting organization that only is a blemish on gay society. Much like Phelps is a blemish on evangelical society. Or Rev. Moon is on Korean society.

  34. Jimmyboyo says

    Cory :-) The founders though supporters of slavery and killers of indians (Franklin founded the 1st ant-slavery group in america) were some very bright and articulate guys. As children of the enlightenment they saw first hand the devestation caused by the grab for political power by the church in europe. For their time period, pre theory of evolution and big bang, they were Deists which is the closest thing that particular time period had to agnostics and atheists.

    Anyway; on the ACLU and Nambla thing. The ACLU defended nambla’s right to think and speak about what they do….NOT the act. in america it is the act that is illegal and the ACLU would rightfly be one of the first to support prosecuting such. the act is criminal….free thought and free speach in america though supports Namb;a members saying and thinking what they do (though in my own opinion they need to visit a psychologist and get that issue worked on)

    If you are going to attack the ACLU for the Nambla thing then at least get the basics right before spouting off nonsense. If then after becoming educated to the fact that the ACLU defended free speach and NOT the act ….you still condemn the ACLU then you must condemn all free thought and free speach……..move to russia and become a comissar thought police. The thought though abhorent to me personaly is not a crime…..The act is…2 totaly different things all together

  35. says

    I’m a student here at UT (and actually just got interviewed for the local news about the display) and I can tell you that the YCT have a pretty established reputation here on campus and the solid majority of people won’t give them the time of day. In the past they’ve had a “Throw the immigrant beanbag through the gaping hole in the Texas border” game, and an affirmative action bakesale in which the prices of the cookies were set according to race (to expose the “racism” of affirmative action). I was pleased to see that the ACLU is already out there in front of the display handing out printed responses and looking much more organized than the t-shirted band of disheveled fat white guys manning the YCT table.

    My favorite part of the display is that Gary and Joseph (and everyone else included) are white – clearly the ACLU would be more concerned with historical accuracy of race than trying to wage war on Christmas via child porn-extravaganza!

  36. Wolf says

    There are just some monenst when freedon of speech and Expression are just plain WRONG. Especially when IDIOTS like those are given it. I know its granted to all in the Constitution but man theres just no sense of decorum anymore.

  37. JT says

    Matt raises an interesting point…regardless of the source…when he talks about ACLU defending NAMBLA. Incidentally, the ACLU website, itself addresses it’s defense of NAMBLA. The point that he raises is the fact that the ACLU is nothing if not controversial and offends both sides (liberal and wrong). I am disgusted by their defense of Nazis and gun-owners as well as of NAMBLA.

    I don’t think it’s fair to assume Matt’s a conservative because he made an unfortunate choice in which link to include in his post. ACLU is the issue Matt was addressing not a media outlet.

  38. Daniel says

    Wolf, if Freedom of Speech only applied to things everyone can agree on there would be no need to protect it. People have been saying exactly what you said for years in order to silence gays. I don’t like what NAMBLA stands for–I don’t like what the Nazis stand for–I don’t like what Damon Wayans stands for (there was an article in the LA Times this morning) but they need to have the right to say what they want to.

  39. Leland says

    “Wayans…cracked offensive jokes about gays in church.” Gee, there’s a BIG surprise. How many believe he only used the word “gay” [if at all]? Raise your hand.
    Slime comes in all colors.

  40. Zeke says

    Mike, two of the few things that send me into a spin are having my words twisted and being accused of saying things I didn’t say. Unfortunately you hit two of my birds with one stone in your comment to me. Forgive my petulance if English isn’t your first language or if you have problems with reading comprehension, but one way or another you seem to have comprehended something that I didn’t write.

    First you said, “I don’t understand where you get off saying I’m conservative.” Um, I never said YOU were conservative Mike. Read my post again. (JT, my friend, you might want to read it again as well) Suggestion: Don’t assume that because two things are in the same sentence they are necessarily coupled. But, since you brought it up, I don’t know too many non-conservative people or non religious fundamentalists who read or link to WorldNetDaily. Not sayin, just sayin.

    Then you said, “Zeke, also you go on about my viewpoint but never state yours.” Could you please point out where I “went on” about your viewpoint? Could you at least point out where I even mentioned your viewpoint? Once again, COMPREHENSION, COMPREHENSION, COMPREHENSION! I never questioned or even mentioned your viewpoint. From what I wrote I could have very well agreed with your viewpoint. I only questioned your using a link to WorldNetDaily to back up your viewpoint. Had you used one of your “other sources” to back up your point it’s quite likely that I wouldn’t have said a word.

    Be honest, did you even know what WorldNetDaily was when you linked to them?

    To answer your questions:

    What do you think about the nativity scene?

    Answer: I DON’T think about it! It’s silly, juvenile, homophobic and sacrilegious but as a semi-intelligent, gay, Christian, card carrying member of the ACLU it doesn’t bother me one damn bit. I personally believe that the more that the ignorant, intolerant and homophobic are allowed to present their point of view, no matter how pitifully or uncreatively they may do it, the more intelligent people will realize how stupid they are. And THAT by the way is PRECISELY the view of the ACLU.

    THAT is also why they, and I, support Fred Phelps’ right to make a total ass of himself, even though I find his message and his tactics repulsive. I believe there may be some constitutionally sound way to limit his proximity to actual funerals but I don’t know what they might be. Uncertainty does not terrify me the way it does absolutists.

    By the way, I also totally support the right of biker “patriots” and anyone else who disagrees with Phelps, his message and his tactics to counter demonstrate. I believe the answer to the “problem” of free speech is MORE free speech.

    There is no question in my mind that Fred Phelps has done more to promote gay rights and gay tolerance than all the Pride Parades and Circuit Parties and HRC banquets combined. I say give the man MORE television/radio airtime and a BIGGER megaphone!

    Do they have a right to put it up?

    Answer: I think so. See above. In fact if I lived in Austin I would encourage EVERYONE to go see it and I would pay to put up flood lights so that this display of stupidity could be viewed 24 hours a day. The more people who see it the more people become familiar with the bonehead opinions of the group that sponsored it and the more people will get to see just how uncreative and unimaginative homophobes can be.

    What are your thoughts on the ACLU?

    Answer: Love them, though I absolutely despise some of the people and messages that they defend. I’m intelligent enough to realize that the first Amendment was not written to defend POPULAR speech; it was specifically written to defend unpopular and even offensive speech.

    I spent 12 years in the military. I went in thinking that I was there to defend the flag of the United States but somewhere along the line, as I “liberalled” up, I came to realize that I was there to defend MUCH more than a piece of cloth. I was there to support and defend ALL that the flag stood for, which, as much as I hated it, included the right to political expressions like burning that very same flag. Does that make me a flag burner? Hell no! Does that mean I support flag burning? Hell no! Do I believe a person should have the right to burn the flag? Hell yes! I also believe that others should have the right to protest those who burn the flag. That’s because I believe that intelligent people will be able to make up their own minds whereas stupid people are dangerous regardless of whether we “protect” the flag or not.

    What are your thoughts on the ACLU defending NAMBLA members?

    Answer: That is a dangerously vague question that I am not stupid enough to fall for it Mike. First of all I, unlike our president and apparently you, believe that our Constitution mandates that EVERY American citizen is entitled to a defense, regardless of the accusations or charges against him and regardless of his guilt or innocence. I also believe that NAMBLA members deserve a legal defense when they are sued over business deals that go bad, divorces or against false accusations/charges that are totally unrelated to their sexual desires or their illegal sexual behavior. So once again, the answer to the question would be yes.

    Do I agree with the message or goals of NAMBLA? I really know very little about them but from what I think I know the answer would be HELL NO! Do I believe that the possession and distribution of pictures and films of nude, under-aged kids is an issue of free speech? HELL NO!; because it is a violation of the children’s (who are not consenting adults) rights to privacy. If that was what the ACLU was arguing then I would strongly disagree with them on that position. However, I certainly don’t take WND’s word for it that they were arguing that position sense they are notorious for linking everything they don’t like (especially gays) to NAMBLA.

    For the record, the ACLU was NOT defending the two men who raped and killed the boy. They were defending NAMBLA in a civil case where the organization was being held responsible for the crime because the killers were visitors to the site which did not advocate abduction and murder. That would be like suing WorldNetDaily for the bombing of abortion clinics because the bomber was a registered member or fan of the site.

    Does any of this make sense to you Mike?

    Let me state again, before the flaming starts; I DO NOT SUPPORT NAMBLA IN ANY WAY AND I DO NOT DEFEND ANYTHING THAT THEY DO OR STAND FOR. I believe people who are sexually aroused by children are sick and should seek help (god I sound like Foley). I also believe that those who act on these feelings should be removed from society.

    That has nothing to do with the discussion above. I can be against pedophiles and support their constitutional right to a legal defense at the same time. That goes against human nature and that’s exactly why it went into the Constitution.

    Everyone thinks the Constitution and the ACLU are brilliant when they are being personally protected by them but they’re ready to shred, bypass or amend the Constitution and burn ACLU attorneys at the stake when they are working for others, especially others that they dislike, hate or disagree with. The thing to keep in mind is EVERYONE is someone else’s OTHER. If you were to ask Rush Limbaugh about what he thought about the ACLU defending drug addicts three years ago, I guarantee his answer would be very different from his answer today. THAT’s why the Constitution is held sacred and why those, like ACLU attorneys who defend it, and/or enforce it, should be thanked and supported.

    I hope I answered your questions to your satisfaction Mike. Feel free to debate away.

    Yes Patrick, I know, EDIT!

    In my defense; this time I only responded to specific questions asked of me. Granted, the Phelps spiel and the flag detour were sidebar rants but for the most part I stuck to Mike’s script.

  41. Zeke says

    And one more thing,

    I absolutely hate people like Daniel who slip in to eloquently and concisely say in three sentences what I’m struggling to say with three pages!

    Especially when they post it while I’m typing my little fingers to the bone.

    Damn you Daniel! (shaking fist furiously at screen!) :)

  42. JT says

    Sorry, Zeke, young feller, but I read and re-read your post before saying what I said. You used BUT in a sentence linking the two clauses. Your sentence said that you are normally tolerant of conservatives BUT you can’t believe there are gay people who read whatever-the-hell-that-website-is.

  43. rudy says

    The ACLU does not defend individuals per se. The ACLU defends the Constitution and an individual’s right to express his or her opinion. The Constitution and attendant Bill of Rights were written to prevent the tyranny of the majority. The rights enumerated are for all but protect the rights of the minority. That is why the Constitution enables offensive speech. As Zeke stated, the response to offensive speech should always be MORE SPEECH. Give the idiots a soapbox (or the technologically modern equivalent) upon which they can damn themselves with their expressions of stupidity and hatred. As for child porn, that is NOT Constitutionally protected speech. Ownership or possession (including viewing online) is a criminal offense. Acting on the desires that arise from such criminal speech is likewise criminal behaviour. The distinction is very clear in constitutional jurisprudence. Practical rule of thumb: one’s First Amendment rights end where they impinge upon the safety or physical well-being of another. This is particularly the case with children where the State stands “in loco parentis,” that is as guardian for children’s welfare.

  44. stephen says

    It’s satire. The ACLU does have an agenda in the cases they choose to take and clients they choose to represent. They do have some of their priorities mixed up. Being gay does not mean I support NAMBL or terrorists or those who want to take the rights of Christians who want to practice their religion away from them. Protecting everyone’s rights including the conservatives protects the rights of non conservatives as well. Choosing ONLY to protect the rights of non conservatives, non Christians, and terrorists does not protect everyones’ rights. They have a right to make a statement with their exhibit. It is not profane and should not offend anyone who makes much more derogatory comments against the right calling them NAZI’s for example.

  45. Matt says

    Oh and I would want to ACLU defending my rights. I’m very happy with my life and how my rights are. The only way it can get better is if the ACLU somehow gets me a tax break or helps increase my portfolio. Just for clarification to all. I vote based on my wallet not on social issues.

  46. Zeke says

    JT, my point in that sentence was that I am the first to jump to the defense of some of the most maligned commenters on this website (conservatives/Republicans) because I know that there are reasonable Republicans and I know they aren’t all wacky **BUT** I can’t understand how ANYONE can think the Washington Times and WND are reputable sources to link because THAT really does seem wacky. My intent, if it wasn’t clear, was to point out that I can figure out one BUT I can’t figure out the other. I didn’t intend for that to indicate a conflation of the two.

    Stephen, the ACLU often defends conservatives, conservative groups, religious groups and conservative religious groups but not when they are trying to co-opt the government or public space to spread their message. The only thing is, the religious groups and conservative groups get real quiet when they’re being represented by the ACLU. Like when the ACLU defended Fred Phelps, the Phelps Klan was unusually quiet about it. You don’t get much more conservative or “religious” than Fred Phelps.

    We didn’t hear Rush Limbaugh singing about his accepting the help of the ACLU either. I know he is know for being low key and demure but he could have at least given them a shout out on his show. But alas, it wasn’t to be.

  47. jimmyboyo says

    Matt, you said

    “Just for clarification to all. I vote based on my wallet not on social issues.”

    Oh my (non-existent fairytale) god. That makes you the most shallow , self absorbed, etc person on this board.

    As long as you get your tax break then who cares about fundies trying to criminalize your lifestyle………..who cares about rape victims being forced to carry a child to term, etc.

    WOW! WOW! Uhm WOW!

    PS from the stand point of all of human history…the current tax cuts during war time will destroy this country. At NO time in the entirety of human history has there ever been a people to cut income going to a government while fighting a war. It is illogical, it is economicaly foolish, and historicaly never ever ever been done before. But hey, as long as you get your tax break then who craes…..

  48. Leland says

    ” gets me a tax break or helps increase my portfolio. Just for clarification to all. I vote based on my wallet not on social issues.” There we have it, folks: confirmation that December 5th was National Cretins Day.

  49. Zeke says

    Excuse me Matt, I’m getting my WT and WND nuts confused.

    Though I called you Mike, I attempted to answer all of your questions. Strangely, you didn’t answer whether or not you knew what World Net Daily was when you linked to it?

    And a couple of follow up questions: What do you think about WorldNetDaily? Do you support their positions on gays and gay rights?

    Here’s a question for JT: After his last comment, is it still unfair to assume that Matt is a conservative?

  50. Canook says

    Nothing like the clueless right. The inclusion of Marx is as ridiculous as the entire nativity scene in general. Soviet-style communism is in no way, shape or form what Marx spoke of. That’s why they call it Soviet-style communism. Because it was a bastardized version of what Marx spoke of. Fucking tools.

  51. JT says

    OK, Zeke. Now, I need to eat crow. Matt, I felt that there was no way I could support inferring that you are a conservative or a Republican based on an unfortunate weblink. I must eat crow because, as Leland points out, you ARE NOT ONLY A CONSERVATIVE, YOU’RE ALSO ONE OF THOSE AMMORAL CONSERVATIVES. Sorry, Matt, but anyone who places a portfolio ahead of humanity is not, in my view, the least bit enlightened or progressive.

    So, Zeke, ‘ya happy now, big baby?

  52. Gay in Texas says

    Jim, I doubt you would want to cede Texas from the “union”, but many Texans would love to cede ourselves from you. I also doubt many of the spenders in DC would sacrifice their cash-cow of Texas $$$ who generously donated our money, time and our city’s safety to the Katrina unfortunates. See how many more taxes the Dems in Yankeeland will add to your cost of living without our “Halliburton” dollars.

  53. Mirele says

    *boggle* I dated (read: debated) a YCT at UT back in 1980. I was a Young Democrat. We were all so *nice* then. What the hell happened?

    (Don’t have to answer the question, it’s rhetorical.)

  54. says

    In the Bible, the Greek word for Holy Spirit is feminine. So, I figure if Mary became pregnant via the Holy Spirit as scripture says, then it was a grand lesbian affair.

    And to the person who said some gay folks are Christian. Hey, I’m one! I’m a Quaker, so I suppose not many fundys would consider me a Christian. I’m sure the Young “Conservatives” of Texas would not think so. But that’s okay, I don’t think they are Christian either.

  55. Minnie Mouse says

    The ACLU an extreme political faction? Say what? The ACLU is extreme only in the sense that they believe the radical notion that the Bill of Rights applies to everyone – including NAMBLA, Limbaugh and anyone else that anyone of us finds personally distasteful. Why is it so hard to understand that when sleazeballs’ rights are protected, everyone’s rights are protected? Miranda is a good example. Of course he was a loser. But the fact that his rights were protected means that now, if I got arrested for, say, protesting the war, I have to be informed of my rights. Protecting his rights protected my rights. Taking away the bad guys’ rights is a fabulous notion until someone decides that YOU’RE the bad guy. Then, not so much.
    I simply don’t get what’s American about deciding it’s anyone’s rights to figure out who gets protected under the Constitution and who doesn’t. Radical? Sure, whatever.

  56. Ed says

    Oh please!… Can we set up beside it the “Hypocritical Republican Nativity” with Mary Cheney, who announced yesterday she’s having a baby with her lesbian partner Heather? The 3 Wise men can be Ted Haggard, Mark Foley and Don Rumsfield. And of course in Texas, the Angel will have to be Tom Delay.

  57. Kathy P says

    Hey – Mary got preganant by magic. Do they really think so little of God’s power that he couldn’t make Gary preggars?

    Damn godless conservatives!

  58. mark m says

    Matt, thanks for the clarification on what being a conservative is (voting with your wallet).

    George Carlin said it best: “Liberals are concerned about people. Conservatives are concerned about property.”

    Matt, your wallet may be empty one day. I sincerely hope you have friends and family who care for more than your wallet.

  59. JT says

    Mark, don’t worry about being born on Cretin Day, it wasn’t made an officially recognized day of observance until after you were born.

    Damn, I am so ashamed of myself for coming to Matt’s defense.

  60. greeseyparrot says

    Zeke | Dec 5, 2006 7:22:20 PM
    What a beautifully thorough job of defending your position. Very, very well done.

  61. Freelancer says

    Not ALL Conservatives are idiots, but ALL idiots are Conservatives.

    Get on the phone and call all the people you want, try to find a pro-gay rights, anti-war, anti-torture, pro-Constitutional rights (religious freedom including freedom FROM religion, dissent, HABEUS CORPUS, due process), guy (or girl) who’s a fuckin’ MORON. If you do find one, ask them if those rights would apply to Americans who vehemently oppose their views.(Neo-Nazi’s, Racists, Bible Beaters.) Not gonna happen

  62. Daniel says

    Zeke, thank you for your continued well thought out and well said contributions. You have much more patience and fortitude than I.

  63. Zeke says

    JT, yes, now I’m happy y’ole fart!

    God I love that man. Sharp tongued AND hot; if I, and he, weren’t married I’d be all over him like white on rice! :)

    Mark M. HAPPY BIRTHDAY my friend! Don’t worry about being born on National Cretin Day, I was born on Hitler’s birthday but I think I turned out alright.

    Craig, Quakers Rock! My UCC congregation and the local Friends Association work very closely together in promoting social justice.

    GreeseyParrot and Daniel, Thanks for the responses. However, I have to confess that I’m not proud of the tone of response to Matt. I try to be more self controlled and less snippy when I post. Sometimes the old high horse gets out of the stable and I say things that I wish I hadn’t. This is one of those occasions. I stand by my points but I wish I had made them in a less confrontational way. I find that I get through to people much more effectively when I am more reserved and thoughtful about my presentation. Certain things set me off, but I should know by now to not fire off a comment too hastily because when I do I often end up reconsidering and/or regretting it later. That has resulted in me making a number of apologies on this site and it will result in me making at least one more.

    Matt, I’m sincerely sorry for responding to you in such a patronizing way. I hope you will be able to overlook the piety of the tone and glean some points to think about from my comment.


  64. JT says

    In Aristotle’s and Galen’s notions of the humours, the spleen was the source of black bile, or melancholy. Melancholy is the source of outbreaks of violence, depression or saying stupid things. Zeke, when your spleen burst, you had a bit of black bile spill into your gut and you’re just getting it all out. Pretty soon, you’re going to be a giddy little fellow. (oops, I certainly don’t mean “little”. Your hubby told me everything!)

  65. Zeke says

    Evidently the husband shared a couple of juicy little tidbits about me while I was incapacitated!

    He’s really brave when he knows I can’t catch him.

  66. says

    These people whom created this “Nativity scene” are going to hell for blasphemy. You may think we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression here on earth, but come judgment day you will pay for this sacrilegious display. Enjoy your time here on earth for where you go after your life has ended here will be a very cold cruel environment where there will be gnashing of teeth and cold chill upon you.

  67. Candi says

    This nativity is the most disgusting thing I have ever seen, and sickens me just as partial-birth abortion does. You would not even be breathing today if there were no God.. you are animals, just like Muslims are..

  68. Bruce Lang says

    As a card-carrying ACLU member, it is my understanding that the ACLU position on religious displays on public property would be that they are fine as long as the displays are privately owned, erected, maintained and dismantled and that the display space would be open to all manner of similar displays. Privately owned displays on private property are fine as they do not imply any governmental sanction.

    The majority doesn’t usually need much constitutional protection since they are usually in charge of things. It is people in the minority who need their rights protected . . . from the majority. Indeed, that is the function of the Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution.

    It has always puzzled me that conservatives are not first in line to join the ACLU. The ACLU exists to protect people from infringement of their rights by the government. That seems to me to be the very essence of less government is better, the mantra of conservatives today.