08/07/2007
San Diego Firefighters Sue Dept for Gay Pride Sexual Harassment
Four of San Diego's city firefighters have filed a request with the state Department of Fair Employment and Housing asking for the right to file a sexual harassment lawsuit against the San Diego Fire-Rescue Department after they say they were forced to participate in the San Diego gay pride parade that took place on July 21. The firefighters say that while taking part in the parade they were sexually harassed, according to 10news:
"During the parade, the firefighters said, bystanders taunted them with sexually explicit comments and colleagues called to tease them for participating in the event. 'I was forced into a situation that would compromise what I hold true and what I believe in,' engineer Jason Hewitt said in a statement. The four contend the department failed to protect them from sexual harassment and didn't immediately act to correct the situation, Stirling said."
Fire Chief Tracy Jarman, a lesbian, has apologized to Fire Capt. John Ghiotto, Engineer Jason Hewett and firefighters Chad Allison and Alex Kane and says she's having the the city's Equal Employment Investigative Office take a look at the situation, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune. The city's firefighters have participated in the gay pride parade for the last 15 years without incident.
Says CBS8: "They're trained to risk their lives battling fires, but some local firefighters suggest nothing could have prepared them for the insults and obscenities they faced at this year's gay pride parade."
The Union-Tribune reports: "In statements filed with the state, the men said that along the parade route, they were subjected to offensive lewd comments such as, 'You can put out my fire,' and saw men blowing kisses at them. Then, they said, they had to endure protesters who yelled at them that homosexuality was a sin. Some comments were too risque to print."
So, according to the paper, they had to endure men complimenting them for their looks, as well as experience first-hand the religious bigotry gay people must endure every day.
Poor things.
You may have missed...
NYC Firefighter Calendar Canned After Michael Biserta is Exposed [tr]
Posted 8:55 AM EST by Andy in Firefighters, Gay Pride, News, San Diego | Permalink
Like it?
Subscribe to FREE Towleroad daily headlines with our RSS feed!
RECENT STORIES:
indeed, call the waaaaambulance.
Posted by: allan | Aug 7, 2007 9:38:54 AM
Firemen have a point, It's not right for them to be compelled to participate in activities outside their job be it a gay pride or a Christmas parade.
I'm sure Jarman could have asked for volunteers.
Posted by: Tom | Aug 7, 2007 9:40:13 AM
It should come as no surprise that most firehouses are like any other boys club, and are constantly full of frat-guy-esque quips about blowing each other and many a man-on-man act 'too risque to print.' That these guys claim they were unprepared for 'you can put out my fire' is laughable, pathetic, a waste of time and money, and yes, homophobic.
Posted by: GBM | Aug 7, 2007 9:41:26 AM
How WILL they manage to cope?
If I had known that those big butch firefighters would crumple like a little old lady's tissue the second I blew a kiss at them, I'd have done it long ago.
As for the christianist haters, get a grip. If I could handle it as a teenager, then those firemen can just freaking relax.
Posted by: Brian | Aug 7, 2007 9:42:13 AM
Funny how when the tables are turned, the queens say people are "whining" but if the straight fireman gave them so much as the evil eye, they would cry prejudice and harassment.
I applaud the straight fireman for standing up for themselves for this...they don't deserve to be taunted by queens who have no respect for others.
Posted by: good... | Aug 7, 2007 9:51:33 AM
I'm in agreement w/ Tom... they shouldn't "have" to have participated in the event (as it sounds like they did).
And, I'll admit - it does feel a little good to know that they experienced just a little of what LGBT people go through.
Posted by: gabriel | Aug 7, 2007 9:58:43 AM
What a bunch of crybabies. They weren't sexually harassed, they were freaked out by the idea of guys being attracted to them. This is an abuse of the judicial system.
Posted by: sam | Aug 7, 2007 10:00:16 AM
No Good..., what's 'funny' is how you are so quick to downplay anti-gay harrassment, as if all us queens are keen on crying wolf and only have to deal with an occasional mean look. I don't know about you, but I've encountered a heck of a lot worse in life, much more violent, much more hateful, much more intimidating, and so if I feel like anti-sexual harrassment laws are being misused for fostering homophobia, then, yes, permit me to 'whine.' Sexual harassment isn't just about mentioning sex in the workplace, but using sex to bully people into uncomfortable and compromising situations.
Posted by: GBM | Aug 7, 2007 10:07:06 AM
i kind of disagree with the attitude on these comments. why should anyone have to put up with sexual taunts while doing something they were forced to do through work? thats the bottom line here. you may not like it, and you may think that as gays your victimhood gives you special rights to behave however you want to regardless, but the fact is that these guys have a case. they were told to do a job and in the course of that job they were sexually harassed. thats not right. it shouldn't have happened. if gay people can't treat others with the same respect they claim to want for themselves, then they shouldn't bitch when people object. seriously guys, just because you got picked on in school, doesn't give you a e-ticket to be in immature ass for the rest of your life.
Posted by: dan | Aug 7, 2007 10:12:23 AM
I'll second (and third) comments from above: the firefighters shouldn't have been forced to participate (if, indeed, they were). This sounds, however, suspiciously like some axe-grinding-- People this blatantly homophobic surely don't take kindly to a lesbian boss. Check out the comments (and the sensationalistic, biased version of the story) over at WingNutDaily:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57022
Posted by: Acolyte | Aug 7, 2007 10:17:32 AM
Perhaps you missed this part:
"I was forced into a situation that would compromise what I hold true and what I believe in," engineer Jason Hewitt said in a statement. [read: "I should be allowed to hate gay people even while on duty, and decide which citizens I assist in parades"]
also key:
"The Thomas More Law Center, a conservative Christian legal organization based in Michigan, is helping represent the plaintiffs."
Posted by: GBM | Aug 7, 2007 10:21:58 AM
Meanwhile the NYFD is being sued by the federal gov for its discriminatory hiring practices hmmm...
Posted by: Giovanni | Aug 7, 2007 10:25:47 AM
So if someone does not want to hear from a gay man: you can put out my fire they are homophobic. Hmmm, how about come on over to the dark side (black) or once you eat me you will want more (Asian)....so that person is a homophobe or racist...how about the person does not want to hear any of that at all...people tend to act of and then fall back on their "color, race, sexuality" as a cushion for simply bad, tasteless and rude behaviors and that needs to stop.
It is a shame that firefighters have been reduced to "sex symbols" and "fodder for porn scenes"; this is not who they really are. Yes there are those firehouses that print calendars to raise money for burn victims and other charities. It is the only way the general population cares about their hard efforts or maybe after they save them from a burning building.
Now if a gay person goes against the flow of thinking of the other gays then that person is self-loathing. How about this person has some standards that go outside of the prescribed gay arena that allows him/her to exist as an individual and treat people better than others have; also I do not rely on my sexuality to permit me to be immature and childish to others. Can you say the say?
Gays are really starting to use the term homophobic to shield their ill behaviors towards others. Gays are learning that there is power in this word even in its misuse. BTW: I have never seen or experienced the cruelty or dismissal as a person from straights as I have from gays. Let’s be honest: gays are not all that inclusive and understanding; sure that is the image that is heavily portrayed out there that we are getting along but we all know the truth: from terms as Rice Queen, Snow Queen and the list goes on and on; do not get me started on the body and money issues that are present. Gays are just like their straight brothers in their cruelty: how many gays are committing suicide because of the inside evil behaviors of the gay world.
The bottom line all of these tactics are used to stall or derail the fact that yes the gay men were wrong in their comments to the firefighters. Yes, that is right in this case the gays are wrong in their treatment of these firefighters.
Posted by: TheTruth | Aug 7, 2007 10:28:29 AM
Shorter Jason Hewitt: I'm a fundie and believe I should have equal opportunity to hate the gays while I'm on the job. Plus the comments got my weiner a little hard so now I'm afraid I may be gay.
Posted by: Tread | Aug 7, 2007 10:30:12 AM
The Truth is obviously false.
Posted by: Whatev | Aug 7, 2007 10:31:20 AM
To all those defending these firefighters:
If the tables were turned, and the fire dept was at another parade, and women were saying "you can put out my fire" to firemen who happened to be gay - do you REALLY think those gay men could or should sue for harassment?
This was not a boss using power to demean or coerce sex from an underling. These were catcalls from a rowdy crowd. Get over it, Firemen, and try to show some of that bravery that you are lauded for.
Posted by: Gregg | Aug 7, 2007 10:43:49 AM
When I read comments like "Tread" and "GBM" I am amazed because they have taken upon themselves to infer the meaning of what these men have actually said. When blacks were being called names of all sorts should they have dealt with it? I mean blacks today say the N-word to one another in records, movies, the streets but let a white person say it and all hell will break out across the media airwaves. What if a group of whites were making sexual remarks to an Asian, Black or Hispanic woman at the bus stop is that wrong. Or how about in a parade, what if a white/Asian man yelled out to a black woman marching in a MLK parade, hey baby the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice. If you do not like hate speech then you do not like hate speech; it is not bad for one group and not another.
Also why do gay men think that they have telepathy to read others mind? Gay men do not have super powers. Why do gay men constantly think that if someone does not accept their advances they are a closet case homosexual? That black woman in the parade I just mentioned maybe she is a closet case Asian lover and does not know it; maybe if I say it to her a few more times she will convert. I am making a point to just how stupid and sick it sounds when gay men make these statements.
Also if you are going to make a comment here or anywhere else on the internet try to have something of substance to say that is truthful and/or directs the conservation in the direction of the truth. Far too many people use the internet to deflect the truth; make rude and childish comments that deflect the truth or do not have any clear sense of human sentiment.
Posted by: TheTruth | Aug 7, 2007 10:47:17 AM
i think it has to be taken in context of the whole meaning of the law. now, granted, a bunch of adult men making lewd comments to people who provide a community service is totally lame, but even if you think thats okay, the law on sexual harrassment in the state of california is pretty clear on the issue, and that is that its not okay. i worked for a company that specialized in gay media, and because of that, the guys who worked for me, who were both straight and gay, were often the subject of lewd remarks. anytime any of them told me about it, the policy according to the law was clear. i had to ask, did that make you uncomfortable? do you want me to take steps to ensure that it doesn't happen again. if they said "yes" i had to address the issue with the guilty party, and make it clear that they couldn't speak that way, and if they didn't change their behavior, in the interest of protecting my employees, i had to sever ties with them, even if they were a good customer. its pretty much the same way hear, except that the fire chief doesn't have the option to take the matter up with the idiots who were making the comments. but the san diego fire department is in the position of having ordered their employees to participate in a venue that subjected them to harassment. the grievance is legitimate. you might not like it, but its the other side of the blade that protects you from the same. if gay people don't want to be the targets of comments that make them uncomfortable or that make them feel threatened, however the law defines that, than by the very same token, they must respect others wishes for the same. lewd and objectifying behavior is the same no matter who is the perpetrator and who is the victim. just because this group of gay men feel they have the right to say whatever they want to whoever they want, doesn't change california's sexual harassment laws. that said, the final answer on it will come from the courts, but hopefully the san diego fire department will address it appropriately and make participation in parades a voluntary matter. but calling it homophobia when someone reacts negatively to your comments is immature and limited thinking. do better.
Posted by: dan | Aug 7, 2007 11:07:20 AM
Having worked with firefighters for about 15 years now (I'm an EMS provider), when I read the article, I have a different thought on what really tweaked the firefighters.
In other sentence, they mentioned how their coworkers kept calling and taunting them. The firehouse is like a big boys club and their really is the "alpha-male" mentality there. There is always a competitions to who is strongest, bravest, etc. I think the calls from their brother firefighters were what really set them off.
On a different note, I'm sure some of the comments at the parade were rude but that comes with the territory. I've talked with a lot of the police and EMS at the NYC parades and I've asked them about whether they enjoy working the pride parade. Most of them say its a lot of fun and yes there are some comments that are made to them. Generally, they say the comments are not nearly as bad as some of the names they are called at other parades which are decidely less affectionate.
Cops, firefighters and EMT are the face of the government and part of their job is representing the government and dealing with people that they don't like. (I don't like all my patients and many of them have said things a lot worse to me than a little flirt.) Many times they don't like what they hear but I don't know that gives them the right to start suing. What if the cops refused to work a parade where they were called pigs and killers by every float down the street. This is just a fact of the job.
Posted by: Ed | Aug 7, 2007 11:07:57 AM
what Brian and Sam said, and honey those big butch firefighters need to develop a tougher hide, you should hear the insults and obscenities hurled at me as I sashay down the street, San Diego is a mean town.
Posted by: the queen | Aug 7, 2007 11:08:45 AM
Hate speech? I think not. Uncomfortable and awkward perphaps for the timid but if this is the 15th year of marching you'd think they would be used to being oggled along with a few dozen wolf whistles. My guess is they did not want to march in the parade at all and this is their way of making sure they will never do it again. Next year marching in the parade should be strictly voluntary.
Posted by: Giovanni | Aug 7, 2007 11:13:52 AM
Straight firefighters being forced to participate in the firefighters gay pride parade: Wrong.
These same straight firefighters being taunted, insulted, name-called, etc.: Wrong.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
In other words, this potential lawsuit NO merit.
These type of things fry my ass.
Posted by: Stephen | Aug 7, 2007 11:31:36 AM
Hope every thing settles as a big mistake.
next time ask for volunteers and that way it would be less problematic.
Im shure firefighters have an opend mind hello its 2007.
Posted by: Nachito | Aug 7, 2007 11:35:54 AM
If not homophobic, then what? Happy-go-lucky? The Thomas More Law Center representing the firefighters is a conservative Christian non-profit whose 'non-homophobic' objectives include:
Defending the Traditional Family
Challenging Special Rights for Homosexuals
Block Efforts to Legalize Same-Sex Marriage
(from their own website)
Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center:
"These men should not have to explain to their families, friends and church congregations that their presence at a celebration of lewdness and obscenity in support of the homosexual agenda was because they were forced there by way of a direct order" ...“This is another example of how radical homosexual activists in positions of authority force their agenda on unwilling citizens."
The charges of harassment seem tangential to the simple fact that it is a gay parade at all. Volunteer service would be best if these men were simply part of a city float, but if it was their job to be there for safety, then I agree with Ed above.
Posted by: GBM | Aug 7, 2007 12:11:12 PM
Andy,
Have to disagree with you on this one. This activity was outside of their work responsibilities and they shouldn't have been forced into attending if they didn't want to do so. Firefighters are hired to fight fires. This should have been a volunteer assignment.
Gay pride parades are very sexual. Forcing a guy to attend an event where he will receive unwanted sexual attention is no different from forcing a woman employee to visit a strip club, where women are stripping for men, to have a business meeting where she didn't want to go.
Many women feel threatend and intimidated when the receive unwanted cat calls or sexual advances. Are you saying that they should just keep their mouths closed and suffer in silence?
Sexual harrassment is about the perception of the victim.
Posted by: noah | Aug 7, 2007 12:13:13 PM
How are the people on the street who are catcalling the firefighters supposed to know that they dont want to be there? Anybody watching a parade, assumes that the people in the parade want to be there. I go to an auction every year for the Seattle Mens Chorus and one of the auction items is a chance to judge next years Seattle Firefighter Calendar..as such, the half naked fire fighters are walking around selling the calendar all night..Should I assume that they are friendly and will take pictures with gay men and participate in the "inappropriate" things that go on all night? or should i assume that they're being forced to be there and we shouldnt talk to them? Everybody knows what a gay pride parade is. Everybody who is hot gets yelled at and complimented, whether it be a fireman, a PFLAG dad, or a political candidate.
Posted by: kitkats99 | Aug 7, 2007 12:14:42 PM
Why not hire gay firefighters? We're not afraid of handling hoses.
Posted by: Derrick from Philly | Aug 7, 2007 12:17:01 PM
This is a horrible travesty. Those poor firemen having to work this parade - well it makes it seem like the fire department actually SUPPORTS this type of sinful behavior. I don't care if the city counsel endorsed this parade, the city employees should have told the city that they don't care, their good morals and wholesome values are more important than what the city counsel wants. We answer to God, not some politicians, just because they sign our paychecks.
It's just like sending a fire truck to the lotus festival. I makes the city look bad showing favoratism to those asian immigrants - and you know that if they're at a "lotus festival" then they aren't Christians. Good God-fearing men shouldn't have to support paganism. And besides they're probably illegal anyway.
And what about firefighters at the Martin Luther King Day Parade? Our cities shouldn't be made to pretend that we support these ruffians. And don't tell me that you don't know that most of them are criminals or welfare mothers. Good blacks work hard and don't take days off to go parade around yelling about civil rights.
I think it's only right and fair that good Christian firemen should not have to be part of civic events. And if they go, they should be able to show their contempt for the sinners without being subjected to their violent and vile responses. How dare these "pride" people become upset when the firemen made it known that THEY didn't support their display of depravity? They are just abominations and they don't deserve respect from city employees.
In fact, I think the whole fire department should show its solidarity with these four brave victims and refuse to offer fire protection to that den of iniquity, Hillcrest. Just let it burn. These homosexuals need to learn that civic services are for straight white Christians, not for the whole city. And the city should never show support for civic parades of its diverse populations. No!! We have to stand for something, don't we?
Posted by: Timothy Kincaid | Aug 7, 2007 12:20:33 PM
No one should have to face discrimination or harassment at work. The firemen had every right to refuse to be part of the parade. Since I don't know the particulars on whether they were "compelled" by their higher-ups I'll assume they did not know what they were in for. Fact is, many gay men act piggish at pride events because it's a time where they can let it all out. You take it in, laugh at it, and move on. I think that these firemen are more concerned with the fact they were "forced" to participate than they are with what actually happened at the parade. They're just using it as an excuse to fight back against being pressed into service by their supervisors.
Posted by: Mike | Aug 7, 2007 12:28:05 PM
Hey there, guys. It would be great if you took your rather coherent and intelligent comments (and I'm being serious) to the San Diego Union Tribune article, because they bigots are writing "fag" all over the place. Thanks.
Posted by: ted | Aug 7, 2007 12:29:35 PM
I agree KitKat... so I think it falls back if this was really a "direct order."
I guess we'll have to wait to see as more info comes out as to how mandatory this was. I mean, they obviously have more than 4 firemen in SD... how did these specific ones get picked?
Posted by: gabriel | Aug 7, 2007 12:31:51 PM
Timothy Kincaid....HA HA HA.
Great impresion of bigoted,homophobic,narrow minded,ill educated pond scum.
After I got the bile of your writing's out of my throat...I laughed and took the ranting's as a joke...gone terrible wrong of course.
Because I'll bet some one's going to believe that this twisted sick opinion is more than a joke.
You keep sucking back on that moonshine....
your sister/wife will have your vidal's ready for you soon.
HA HA HA
Posted by: griffin1573 | Aug 7, 2007 1:06:32 PM
They got picked because their station is in Hillcrest, which is the gayest neighborhood and where the parade is held. So, you'd think they'd be able to handle the gays. And does it matter if they were ordered to participate? Those giving the orders certainly didn't harass the firemen.
Posted by: ted | Aug 7, 2007 1:06:34 PM
Timothy Kincaid, you can drop dead. As for the firefighters, grow up and get over it...
Posted by: Robert In WeHo | Aug 7, 2007 1:06:58 PM
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Kincaid, but your comment was satire, right? (And pretty good satire, I thought.)
Posted by: ted | Aug 7, 2007 1:11:53 PM
They could have asked for gay firemen to be in this parade and then no problem. Sexual harassment is bad no matter whether one is gay or not !!
Posted by: Paul | Aug 7, 2007 1:13:22 PM
Robert in WeHo,
C'mon guy. I thought that "...civic services are for straight white Christians, not for the whole city." was going to clue you in to the joke if you hadn't got it by then.
For those who keep saying that they should have had volunteers.... ummm, they did. That crew had to drop out on the last day because of a family death.
They were replaced with the crew located in Hillcrest, the local gay neighborhood.
My question is this: why is the Hillcrest fire station comprised of homophobes? If you cannot show respect for the local citizens - whoever they may be, gay or straight, black white asian or hispanic, rich or poor - you shouldn't be working in that station. In fact, if you cannot show respect for the diverse populations of the city, your ass should be fired.
Posted by: Timothy Kincaid | Aug 7, 2007 1:35:01 PM
Of course, nobody should be forced to participate in an off-the-job parade of any kind. Basic stuff here. But I'm sure it was a revelatory lesson to experience what it feels like to be on the receiving end of unwanted sexual attention -- like what some women contend with regularly on the job. And also to have fundie haters spewing spittle at you as if you were a bad, wrong person.
One straight female friend of mine once opined that the homophobia of some straight men may be a fear of rape. Gay men present the only threat of that nature to straight men.
In any case, I have a policy of being empathic around straight men, which includes not making sexual comments about them, and not trying to hit on them. I hope that if I were a straight men myself, I would have similar empathy for women.
Posted by: Bill | Aug 7, 2007 1:37:41 PM
I just assumed that firefighters who actually drive/ride in the trucks as part of gay pride parades were, in fact, gay (at least in big city parades).
I agree this should be a volunteer situation and no firefighter should be forced to participate. That being said, I don't get the impression that their jobs were threatened in any way so a true workplace sexual harassment case seems pretty weak.
Posted by: ATLSteve | Aug 7, 2007 1:40:20 PM
PS: Re other firefighters who may have teased or harassed the gay pride parade participants: That should be grounds for a correction or termination of employment.
Posted by: Bill | Aug 7, 2007 1:42:18 PM
GRIFFIN1573 -- Are those "vidals" The City & The Pillar or Palimpsest?
Posted by: Becks07 | Aug 7, 2007 1:51:49 PM
RE: What if a group of whites were making sexual remarks to an Asian, Black or Hispanic woman at the bus stop is that wrong.
But if sexual remarks are to white women they are okay?
These firemen got to experience what women face every day. I wonder if they have ever cat called women....?
While I tend to lean on the side of civil rights (i.e. not forcing someone to attend something that is outside the typical job description), I also recognize that sometimes we need to represent our work at events like Pride, and wonder if this isn't a backdoor way to direct hatred towards their boss who is 1) a woman and 2) a lesbian.
Posted by: Monika | Aug 7, 2007 1:54:29 PM
Becks07
"vidals" in my area of the world is slang for food.That's how I intended it.
I'm not sure what "the city & pillar" refers too.
Or what way I would use "palimpsest"
( defined as a reused piece of paper)
in the context of my statement.
Perhaps,regionally at least,I'm missing the point of your question...or you missed the point of my comment.
Posted by: griffin1573 | Aug 7, 2007 2:27:35 PM
Okay Timothy, I'm glad to see that you're not a trolling homophobic christian bigot, I deal with enough of that filth on some of the other sites I post on. You certainly have their lingo down, just next time remember that for something to be interpreted as being funny, you need to make sure that your readers are clued into the fact that you're joking otherwise you just become another Michael Richards. As to your points on homophobic firefighters in Hillcrest and the greater San Diego area, I completely agree with you. The LAFD and the LACFD here in LA are both having similar problems with racist, sexist, homophobic bigots throughout their ranks as well...
Posted by: Robert In WeHo | Aug 7, 2007 2:32:07 PM
Firefighters are public servants, their services is paid for by YOUR tax dollars. They don't get to decide whom they should rescue or refuse.
Jesus Christ.
I'm might have blown them a kiss myself if I hadn't just found out what a bunch of Moaning Myrtels this lot are. A grown man can survive having an appreciative kiss blown at him - generations of woman have done, frankly – and presumably by firemen, too.
I live in New York and I’ve seen firemen hoot and leer at passing women on the street. This crowd need to see this stupid lawsuit backfire all over their over entitled asses.
Posted by: FASTLAD | Aug 7, 2007 2:38:12 PM
griffin1573, fyi, the reference to "the city and the pillar" refers to the biblical destruction of Sodom and Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt by god. "Palimpsest" is an oft misused reference by christians to biblical scripture as early hand written copies of the bible were often transcribed on re-used parchment. Your understanding of the word is correct but in religious circles it's the latter which they are referring to..
Posted by: Robert In WeHo | Aug 7, 2007 2:42:48 PM
Griffin1573:
I like your definition of vidals as much as Becks07's. Becks07's Vidal(as in Mr Gore Vidal) never considered himself to be part of a "gay" subculture, but that's his perogative. I still love...well, like him. I read "The City and the Pillar" when I was about 18-- can't you tell from my cheerful, hopeful personality. Nothin' more uplifting than a story about an all-American golden boy turned street hustler. Well, in the 1940s what else could a nice non-feminine gay boy do?
Posted by: Derrick from Philly | Aug 7, 2007 2:46:34 PM
And obviously it must be my "prerogative" to spell like an idiot.
As for the San Diego firefighters: bet they aint built like them New York City firemen.
Posted by: Derrick from PHilly | Aug 7, 2007 2:53:43 PM
I think many of you are missing the point of just how silly this is.
I am a lawyer, and I don't understand the basis of their claim.
Are they arguing that the fire department was suppose to control non fire department individuals when at a fire department event in public? Well- that's a fascinating argument to say the least.
So, if say a fire department member who is gay is in public and someone yells fag from the crowd - do we get to sue the department based on harrasment too? I mean how far do we want to take this. They are essentially arguing that all gays are like this. How do I make that argument you ask? Because they are saying going to a gay pride is inheritly a harrasing event. If not, then their claim makes even less sense to me. Because if the event itself isn't inheritly harrasing, and what actually happened was by people not controlled by the fire department, then what exactly is there point?
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 2:55:23 PM
AH...
Thank you Robert and Derrick.
I believe I understand what Becks is asking me.
The last line in my comment was not to be a biblical referance or an off handed slight to Gore Vidal.
It's hard to write slang with the right "twang" to get the joke across.
Though both of those definition's would have funny.
Posted by: griffin1573 | Aug 7, 2007 3:06:39 PM
This is insane. The job of a fireman is to fight fires. period. There job, no matter what neighborhood they live in, is not to be your friend. That lesbian had no business ordering them to be in a gay parade (assuming she did). They have every right to sue and I hope the win. I totally agree with those posters who see clearly how many times we as gay men throw out "homophobe" or "self-hate" rather than observe our actions and take responsibility for juvenile behavior. And those who are acting self rightous ("this is what women go through"), just stop. no matter how many episodes of the golden girls you watch, you have no idea what a woman goes through. just stop.
Posted by: Team Firemen | Aug 7, 2007 3:08:29 PM
My first inclination was to say that I don't really believe firefighters (or other city personnel) should be forced to participate in the GLBT Pride Parade. But on second thought, it is community outreach. And firefighters participate in all sort of community outreach with many different populations, so why shouldn't they have to perform community outreach with the GLBT community?
As for the charges of sexual harrassment: Sexual harrassment (at least in terms of employment law) occurs when one is the subject of unwanted sexual attention FROM A SUPERVISOR OR BOSS. These firemen don't have a case. And it is nothing more than ludicrous grandstanding that they are yelling 'Sexual harrassment!'...more akin, really, to yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded theater.
Posted by: peterparker | Aug 7, 2007 3:17:33 PM
No, Team Firemen, and the rest who think you know the "job of a fireman".
A fireman is a city employee. Sure they fight fires but they do a great many other things as well. Some teach fire safety, some are first medical responders, they are drop-off locations for unwanted newborns, and hell, some rescue kittens from a tree.
But ultimately, their job is to do what they are instructed by their department towards the betterment of the safety and adminstration of the city. And that quite often means being seen as the face of the city's civil services.
And if you can't drive down the street and be civil, then you can't represent the city and you aren't doing your job.
This is the mission statement of the SDFD:
"Members of the Department guarantee to the people of San Diego that we will provide dependable service in a responsive fashion, while showing care and compassion for those in need. We will protect lives, property and the environment through fire suppression, rescue, disaster preparedness, fire prevention and community education, medical care and hazardous material mitigation.
The members of this department, working together, will provide a professional and caring environment that is fair, honest, ethical, and that treats all individuals with respect and dignity.
The Department will be a progressive, service oriented organization which provides innovative and effective leadership.
Department members will be supportive and responsive to the needs of city government in a loyal, ethical, and professional manner.
As a national role model within the Fire Service, this department will cooperatively participate at all levels in developing innovative concepts and issues that advance the profession."
These particular firefighters found themselves unable to treat all citizens with respect and dignity and they were unable to supportive and responsive to the needs of city government. Clearly they can't do their job and should be replaced by someone who can.
Posted by: Timothy Kincaid | Aug 7, 2007 3:20:24 PM
Also from their site:
"The San Diego Fire-Rescue Department puts a high priority on interacting with the citizens it serves. When schedules permit and when not committed to a fire or a medical incident, crews participate in station tours, school visits and community group presentations within the City of San Diego"
If these firefighters can't interact with the citizens in their station neighborhood, why are they still on the payroll?
Posted by: Timothy Kincaid | Aug 7, 2007 3:24:47 PM
This article is so great, I love how the blades doesn’t strike both ways for homosexuals! They can be sexually harassed and discriminated and belittled, and can sue the pants off anyone for it. But GOD FORBID a straight guy get offended by someone gay and try to sue someone.
“As well as experience first-hand the religious bigotry gay people must endure every day."
I would assume that since anyone that is gay has to endure "religious bigotry" on a daily basis, they would feel compelled to prevent anyone else from feeling that way?
Posted by: Jeff | Aug 7, 2007 3:25:35 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't recall the fireman yelling out to the crowd...it was the other way around..the people were yelling AT the fireman. nothing in what you posted has anything to do with what happened. The fact that fireman do community outreach does not mean they have to do whatever their supervisor says "in the name of community outreach". under that theory, they could be ordered to a Klan march. The issue is whether they should or can be ordered to participate in something that clearly goes against what they believe in and whether or not that outweighs the "benefit" of the community outreach. If they have to be subjected to taunts and sexual barbs, then I say it does not. clearly the "community" is not interested in being reached out to in any decent manner.
Posted by: Team Fireman | Aug 7, 2007 3:32:04 PM
a gay person should be treated for a mental disorder, because any man that would perfer a man over the softness and tenderness of a woman is mentalty ill.
Posted by: charles | Aug 7, 2007 3:34:10 PM
sorry, i previous posted was directed to tim kincaid.
Posted by: Team Fireman | Aug 7, 2007 3:47:14 PM
Well, Charles, they've tried that. They've tried shock therapy, aversion therapy, labotomies, bashing attacks, concentration camps, prison sentences, hard labor camps, lynchings, ostricism from family, public humiliation by religious institutions, flogging, hanging, burning at the stake, impalement(they quickly gave up on that one, thought we might like it). They've tried everything to stop us; but gay men still keep being attracted to men. Why it even happened in "The City and the Pillar"
Posted by: Derrick from Philly | Aug 7, 2007 3:53:12 PM
Yet here you are again Charles wishing one of us would but a big hard dick up you ass.
You know Charles, you should join Team Fireman and thetruth to start your own gay hate web site. You three bigot could share each others butt-plugs and save money.
Posted by: Charles is an A hole | Aug 7, 2007 4:00:06 PM
Team Fireman,I've got to disagree with you on this. Community outreach is part of the mission of the SDFD. This wasn't some spur of the moment decision by the Chief. The SDFD had participated in the parade for 15 years I believe. So most of these guys probably knew or should have known before hiring that this was part of the job. Just as they know that they will probably have to go the MLK parade and the Puerto Rican day parade and the German Festival and high school football games and so on and so on.
A firefighter is a public servant. As a public servant you have to swallow your own opinions and beliefs and subjugate them to will of the political masters you serve. So if they were ordered to the parade they go, no questions asked.
To do otherwise is the thin edge of the wedge. If the firefighters can refuse to participate in an assignment with which he morally disagrees, then he can start refusing to treat and rescue those with whom he has a moral problem. Any emergency responder has encoutered this.
More importantly, these firefighters let their brothers down. It's department policy to participate and historically the department has participated for 15 years. Something happens to the special parade crew and the local station crew has to cover this assignment.
Firefighters claim to have a strong bond of brotherhood and the mentality of "you go, we go" and the willingness to do anything to help a brother or sister firefighter. So instead of handling the assignment for their brother firefighters with dignity and respect, they used it as a soapbox to advance a moral cause. It saddens me.
Posted by: Ed | Aug 7, 2007 4:01:42 PM
i don't think moral has anything to do with it. GOD made it the exit not an entry.
Posted by: charles | Aug 7, 2007 4:09:35 PM
Tim
I don't think anybody thinks about whether or not they will or won't march in a parade as a factor in becoming a fireman. you really believe men say, hmmmm, before I take that test, am i sure I want to march in a parade?...my point is whether or not they have to attend EVERY parade....and whether they can be ORDERED to...if they volunteer, that's one thing..but to think that every fireman has to attend EVERY parade?! (mlk, puerto rican, gay, jamaican day parade, mexico parade). c'mon. that's a lot of parades to be COMPELLED to attend. that's the issue. can they be compelled to attend every parade in that city. I stand by what i said, their primary concern is the safety of the community in terms of fire prevention. parades are secondary, if that. and "community outreach" can be interpreted to mean anything the chief says it does without any regards to the employees civil liberties? i think not. civil servants also have civil rights and liberties and the issue is still whether someone can be ordered to be subjected to taunts and jeers all in the name of community outreach. I still say no. If, in those other parades (black, hispanic, etc.), the same things happen, then I might better see your point...but if it only happened in the gay parades, then what exactly is the benefit to the community?...fireman to leer at?
Posted by: Team Fireman | Aug 7, 2007 4:32:14 PM
first off the people who live in Hillcrest should be outraged at the fact the fire engine they pay for in their area was out of service for 5 hours so it could be in the parade. What would happen if someone went into cardiac arrest or was choking on a hot dog and an engine had to respond from another district. The engines normally beat the ambulances to the response due to a limited number of the ambulances. Every fire engine has a paramedic on board to meet the city's standard for 2 paramedics on every medical response. God forbid a fire breaks and the fire engine is out of service in a parade.
The fire department has NO business putting fire apparatus into parades of any nature. Off duty personnel who want to participate should go on their own time and leave the politics out of the work place!!! I know these men and they are outstanding people who love to go to work and protect and help people. ALL people. None of them are "homophobic" or discriminate against gay's/lesbians.
The fact is they were forced into a situation by their employeers. Their chiefs knew there was a history of harassment during the parade by other firefighters in recent years writting letters to their chiefs describing it. Yet they forced employees into the environment to be subjected to that behavior. It's too bad that this had to happen when all of it could have been avoid so easily. VERY poor decision making on behave of those fire chiefs.
Posted by: j | Aug 7, 2007 4:55:40 PM
These guys deserve a huge settlement and that fire chief deserves a demotion. They had no business being in the parade if they didn't want to be there. Being eye-candy for a bunch of gay men is not in their job description.
We don't want people at gay pride events who don't want to be there - that's ridiculous and completely opposite of the intent of gay pride celebrations.
Posted by: Ray | Aug 7, 2007 5:19:26 PM
Now I know that it is easier to react to what you think that you know but as always it is important to read all of the facts that are presented. The truth is so many of you think that if you make crude or superior comments that will detract from the truth; well that is not so. These men have made their case and the evidence points in their favor. Now it is up to the courts to decide how things will proceed.
Again try to read all of the facts that are presented thus far, I know that so many of you want to react to what you “think” you know. Information is there for a purpose make use of it. It is hilarious to me as a gay man that when you do not share the group think you are a bigot; you hate yourself and other comments of demotion and despair. It is no wonder there are so many in the gay community are nothing but clones in thought; in actions and appearance. Who is brave enough to stand alone as an individual? The gay community has fooled itself and others to believe that “they” are open to change and tolerance. The gay community is just as hate filled as the straight world and so many of you men have lost your “true” voice inside of yourself out of fear of rejection…yet again in your personal life.
Question: how many of you gay men out there have encountered such cold distant behaviors from the very gay men you were told would be open and kind to you because of some superficial reason that deeply hurt you. Do please answer the question.
As a black man, I experienced the same thing earlier on in my life. People, family, friends and others told me all my life to act a certain way or you will not "black" enough. If I followed that advice I might not have gone to college; traveled around the world; speak 4 languages; and so many other GREAT things that have made me a whole person that welcomes growth.
Well I am gay and black enough for me and no one else.
I provided links below to the following:
The compliant from the firefighters; this complaint has a very detailed timeline of events whereas they clearly state that they did not want to participate in the gay pride parade.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/images/070806firefighters.pdf
2. California State Law on Sexual Harassment
http://www.discriminationattorney.com/harasswk.shtml
Posted by: TheTruth | Aug 7, 2007 6:30:26 PM
many of you - including the Truth are full of shit legally. These men haven't made anything. To make their case, the case has to be tried. It hasn't been tried yet. It hasn't even been aproved to move forward. As I said before I don't know the specifics of sexual harassment law in California, but this seems a bit bizzare that in the course of doing a job some random person in a crowd yells want to suck my dick can give you an excuse to say sexual harrasment. As I also said - does that now mean that women who are firefighters who are walking down the street and some yells Hey baby you want me to fuck you can now sue the department too? That's the logic here, and its as slipper slope kind of argument.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 6:50:28 PM
by the way - someone above said sexual harrasment must mean someone in a position of authority. it can also include co workers where the management does nothing about it. but to my knowledge it hasn't included people who aren't under managemet control. This is mostly an excuse for nutcase extremist to claim - see there you go about gays, and what's really funny is that if they win they will be broadening the definition of sexual harrasment and discrimination in a way that actually could help us out.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 6:52:55 PM
Akaison, you obviously should stop, think then re-think before you start to type. You even stated you don't know specifics of sexual harrasment law in california or from the sounds of it, anywhere. The fire chiefs knew their employees would be subjected to harrasment and FORCED them into the situation. They had a duty to protect their employees by keeping them out of those types of sexual harrasment situations when it's known that it is or will happen. Every parade the SDFD has participated in the employees who have gone did so on a volunteer basis. These men were the first to be forced to participate. I encourage you to look up the law and become educated before you start slinging false information around!! You can find the codes that were broken on the san diego union tribune web page or kogo has them listed as well. Once again stop spreading false statements!
Posted by: j | Aug 7, 2007 7:16:43 PM
AKAISON, I just read that your a lawyer?.?. What type of law do you practice? Look, their was an obvious wronge doing on the part of the fire department for forcing these people into this environment. I can't stress it enough......look up the law before you claim that your a lawyer and don't even know the laws on this subject. I sure wouldn't retain you for any legal advice. Makes you look like a pretty shotty lawyer!
Posted by: j | Aug 7, 2007 7:23:43 PM
Unfortunately, the California Fair Employment and Housing Act, as clarified by Assembly Bill 76 in 2003, specifically states the following:
"This bill would revise the provision summarized in the first paragraph above to include sexual harassment by nonemployees if the employer knows or should have known of the incident and fails to take corrective action."
In the examples Akaison cites, the department would not be liable, inasmuch as there would be no reason to suspect sexual imagery or offensive statements to be made in the act of fighting fires, and it's impossible to predict random behavior.
But attempting to argue that inappropriate behavior and sexual imagery should not be expected at a Pride parade is a comedy routine worthy of Seinfeld.
And as for Timothy Kincaid, that's hilarious. That's like saying a woman should be forced to take sexual comments and insults about her gender because she's a "city official" and if she complains, she's not showing proper respect to citizens.
Posted by: North Dallas Thirty | Aug 7, 2007 7:41:56 PM
Thank you "J", again I ask that you read the complaint and what "California" law is of which I also provided you a link.
Knee jerk reactions, name calling and profanity are ways to deflect and distance the truth.
Also don't you just love how now with the internet: there are so many lawyers online at the precise moment you need them; so many people who know the people that this has happened to; the I was there person; all of these false and less than authentic attempts to be intimately close to something or someone.
BTW: no one answered my question, see my previous post if you are wondering.
Posted by: TheTruth | Aug 7, 2007 7:47:11 PM
'J' if you know so much about how the fire dept. works you would know that when a crew is out at a call, fire, parade, whatever for any length of time, another engine and crew are moved into position to cover that area. So I don't think anyone was in danger because one piece of equipment was used in a parade.
Posted by: Ryan Murphy | Aug 7, 2007 9:37:32 PM
They just don't want people to assume they're gay... Really, they were so caught between a rock and a hard-on. The anti-gays wanna stone ya and the gays wanna bone ya. But I don't think paranoia will hold up in court.
Posted by: kc | Aug 7, 2007 10:05:25 PM
Ryan Murphy,
once again someone who doesn't know the facts. There was NO move up crew to engines 5 district!! I know this to be a actual fact. The department moves up crews for all sorts of different reasons. Such as, in service training(ist), fires, extended calls and so on but for an event that drew 200,000 people to engine 5's district, on top of the normal population that lives there no engines were "moved up" to cover the area. That in itself is criminal. The people who live in Hillcrest should be outraged. By the way that IS a fact not speculation.
Posted by: j | Aug 7, 2007 10:20:27 PM
What a joke! I agree that it's not right to be forced to go to the parade, but did they seriously have to escalate it to this embarrassing and ridiculous level? I mean, come-on! It's sad to see how insecure these guys are in their masculinity. If you read the formal complaint (http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/070806firefighters.pdf), they paint the whole crowd as being a bunch of sexually abusive perverts. This is clearly a case of a bunch of insecure homophobes that have a vendetta against their lesbian chief who want to milk this in order to smear her. Judging from their attitudes, I'm sure they've had it in for her for a long time and they're secretly thrilled to have a weapon to get her with. I would expect more maturity, security, and sense of humor from firemen. I mean look at that NYFD hottie Michael Biserta who showed off every delicious ample inch of himself in Guys Gone Wild! Now THAT'S a cool fireman!
Posted by: Edina Monsoon | Aug 8, 2007 12:24:55 AM
Omg, they were in a Gay Pride Parade, not going to a fundraiser for disabled children. Of course there's going to be cat-calling...
Posted by: Wet painT | Aug 8, 2007 12:30:51 AM
It's sad to see how insecure these guys are in their masculinity.
Thank you for making it clear that you see nothing wrong with insulting and sexually harassing them for exercising their legal rights.
Posted by: North Dallas Thirty | Aug 8, 2007 12:47:36 AM
These firefighters need to grow a collective pair. Have they never leered at or catcalled a woman? I doubt it. When I was a teenager I had long hair and, well, looked kinda like a girl especially from a distance, truth be told. Before I cut my hair off, I experienced the stuff women go through all the time, and I lost count of the times I had lewd remarks shouted at me by straight guys on construction sites, driving trucks and yes, hanging out the windows of fire stations even. But did I run screaming to a lawyer like a little girl? No, I shrugged it off, like these wimps should. It sounds like a case of the shoe being on the other foot and them not liking it.
Posted by: Neio | Aug 8, 2007 9:07:56 AM
Well truthteller, as far as I’ve seen this story is based on unproven allegations. The firemen have to have evidence that they were forced to participate. That’s evidence that needs to be acceptable in a court of law. But obviously there is no need for a court of law by you or the other posters like J. According to you people the lesbian fire chief is already guilty because the straight men said so.
You do know that San Diego is home to James Hartline and his group of gay hating right wing Christians that will do and say anything to stop the Pride Parade from ever happening again. And that’s not the only thing they want to stop concerning the Gays.
Obviously you don’t believe that people are innocent until proven guilt just as you believe all us Gay’s are just so awful. You know it could be that the Gay’s don’t like you because of YOUR personality and NOT the other way around as you claim.
Posted by: U don't know the truth | Aug 8, 2007 12:23:34 PM
To all those people that posted about the Chiefs subjecting them to harrassment clearly have never worked on a public service in urban setting. If you were worried about being harassed, you'd never leave the building on a job.
I've had the ambulance I've been riding in hit with bottles and rocks as we drive through a neighborhood. Medics and ambulance crews in certain districts in my area wear bullet proof vests on street. One of my people had to pull two shot cops into his truck while under gunfire in his previous job.
Public service (Police, Fire EMS) is not like you see on TV, even when on reality shows like COPS. I COPS stopped filming episodes in the city outside of where I live when their camera guy was caught in an actual gunfight where the bad guys just didn't surrender but shot back at the cops.
I work in a comparably quiet community and I've been spit at, swung at, cursed at, called a faggot, had my crew called a bunch of faggots and any number of indignities. That's the job. It is a public job for a reason. A private company cause choose its patrons within reason. Every person /citizen / taxpayer you see on the street is your boss in public service and you got to deal with them like or not.
My point is that regardless of the law on harrassment and how far you can stretch it, these guys are full of BS. Harrassment in public service is being harrassed by the members of your own team. Harrassment by the public just happens.
I watched a transit cop in my area make a good bust of a black guy on the subway. The crowd on the platform started shouting that the cop was a n&**^r hater. Should he sue his chief for putting him in a situation where he was harrassed?
Are these guys to cry and complain next time a citizen gets in their face because they broke a window in their house to put a fire?
BS. Pure BS.
Posted by: Ed | Aug 8, 2007 2:42:30 PM
I attended the gay pride parade and where I sat, it appeared all fire and police personnel were enjoying every bit of admiration shown by the crowd. Anyone can and some probably will misbehave even at the M.L. King and Christmas parades. Instead of suing a bankrupt city, wouldnt it be better to report misbehaviour to police or parade supervisors? Thank God that is not the community spirit I experienced when fire and EMT personnel responded to my needs on 3 occasions. I was shown all the professional courtesy, humanitarianism and serious concern I could have expected and undoubtedl they contributed to saving my life in all three instances. It doesnt seem to make a lot of sense to call in volunteers for a parade and the obvious prople driving the rigs are the ones who would be expected to respond to any emergency in their control. If these four firefighters were called upon to rescue these folks they claim were misbehaving or offending them and their religious values, would they first question whether they were in a burning gay bar or would that make a difference?
Posted by: Richard Regnier | Aug 8, 2007 3:59:16 PM
One other thing. The harrassment thing goes both ways. As a gay man, I've had to go on many assignments that offensive to me. Standby assignments at right wing religious church events, at the RNC, at fairs, carnivals, boy scout events.
I wonder where all the firefighter civil rights defenders would be standing if the crew refused to go to Scouting event as a standby crew because they feel that the Boy Scouts discriminates and the atheist feels that they are trying to convert him/her.
Last night, I was at a community event for National Night Out (as a civilian) and kept getting nasty looks from some of the church organization tables because they saw my rainbow wristband.
So if I was on the firetruck for this event, am I allowed to refuse to attend because the church people were making me feel uncomfortable?
Posted by: Ed | Aug 8, 2007 6:35:22 PM
they went to a parade event. the idea that everyone at pride is out there acting in a sexual way is on its face false. that someone here would claim that at a prde event everyone is sexual is the part thats bullshit. some parts of the crowd- possibly. not all, and thats the point. going to pride isn't like taking someone to a strip club which is a sexual in which you would expect everyone there to be acting in a sexual way. i am sure that was the purpose of that provision rather than a pride event or any event that happens to also have some sexual element.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 8, 2007 11:42:49 PM
Pride Parade Sets Back Gay Rights
When will gays learn that they are only hurting their cause for mainstream acceptance by participating in lewd Gay Pride parades, in which they themselves conform to all of the most negative stereotypes about them?
What's worse, when you force other people to attend, like four San Diego firefighters who are now suing the San Diego Fire Department for sexual harassment.
I think the fire fighters are being a little mellow dramatic (maybe something they picked up from the drag queens) when they say, "I've dealt with finding bodies in burning buildings, traffic accidents with kids, but I've never been so stressed out before until this incident," nonetheless no one should be forced to attend any function against their will.
In forcing these men to attend the Pride Parade, the San Diego Fire Department has only surrendered another PR coup to the Christian Right who are now running pieces like this.
Posted by: Elizabeth Schmitz | Aug 9, 2007 2:06:06 PM
from Schmitz Blitz: schmitzblitz.blogspot.com
Dialogue on the 'Mos
I've written a response to someone who had responded to my earlier post on gays and firefighters.
He writes:
Thank you for your comments.
have a few questions for you based on your comments.
You said that “When will gays learn that they are only hurting their cause for mainstream acceptance by participating in lewd Gay Pride parades, in which they themselves conform to all of the most negative stereotypes about them?
How are these gays in/at the parade “playing into stereotypes” as opposed to showing the public how they really truly are? Were these gays “acting” or is this who they truly are?
You said that “In forcing these men to attend the Pride Parade, the San Diego Fire Department has only surrendered another PR coup to the Christian Right who are now running pieces like this.”
How is the “Christian Right” as you called them using this as a “PR coup”? Isn’t the objective factual truth of how homosexuals acted at this event being reported?
What do you have against people reporting the objective factual truth?
Thanks,
Chris
My response:
Chris,
Where to begin.
I agree with you that stereotype usually has some accuracy to it when applied to any given minority. However, one must recognize that stereotype tends to exaggerate and distort the most superficial differences (and then turns these differences into moral flaws).
I would start by asking you if you actually know any gay people closely. Friends? Family? Anyone that you are close to? I would be willing to bet that you would have an entirely different perspective on ‘those people’ if you did.
I am being presumptuous, but I am willing to bet that you do not actually know anyone closely who happens to be gay. I do know a lot of gay people. I love some of them, I can’t stand others—pretty much the way I feel about any given sample of the population.
That being said, I think that a lot of gays are putting up an act at events like gay pride. For every naked dancing boy I see for a few seconds walking by at a Pride event, I personally know five more gays who shun such displays.
With regard to your remarks on reporting “objective factual truth,” I would say that the facts of this incident are not disputed, and I have no problem with them being reported as such. As you see from my original post, I actually agree with you in thinking that forcing these men (however exaggerated their claims of psychological damage may be) to march in the parade was wrong.
However, I do dispute the way that people from generally conservative religious backgrounds paint an entire swath of human beings (who happen to be in the minority ) as depraved and evil. From a minority perspective, it’s kind of scary.
Thanks for the dialogue,
Elizabeth
Posted by: Elizabeth Schmitz | Aug 10, 2007 12:20:45 AM
I don't think it was right for the firefighters to be ordered to march in ANY parade, it should be voluntary. However, I am having a hard time feeling sorry for men who had to put up with the comments and cat-calls that women have endured in public for centuries. Can I sue the men on the sidewalk for sexual harrassment for whistling or making rude comments? Puh-lease. I'm lucky I could sue if a co-worker or supervisor did it. So it's no big deal if a man does it to a woman but it's a horrible travesty if a man says it to another man. Maybe that will increase male sensitivity to our experiences with men.
Posted by: Kathryn | Aug 10, 2007 4:25:40 PM
To the guy who was at the parade: Were they cute? I ask because, in my experience, the average straight guy who worries about homosexual propositions is unlikely to ever get one.
Posted by: CW | Aug 16, 2007 9:50:21 PM
Why should anyone have to be harassed? I don't understand why any of you think one wrong (us being treated second class) makes it okay to treat these men poorly. If you want to be treated well, you have to treat others in the same fashion.
Posted by: Farrish Carter | Aug 23, 2007 4:44:07 PM