Comments

  1. Adam says

    I think caucuses are probably the cheapest way to do this, if it needs to be done. That will probably send the Clinton folks into a huge tizzy, though. This could have all been avoided if FL and MI decided to follow the rules in the first place. Now they’re trying to bully their way back in–both of them are that annoying girl from elementary school who refused to play unless she won, then came crying back when everyone said, “OK then, go.”

  2. Jimmyboyo says

    Adam

    BUT Clinton’s guy Terry Mcc-however you spell his name has put foreword the Firehouse caucus model.

    Which means even smaller time periods and less polling places then a regular caucus

    I do find it ironic that FL and MI moved their dates to gain relevance, but if they had just waited they would have been extremly relevant this cycle.

    Lets do it! FL most likely goes Hillary and Michigan most likely goes Obama so everybody gains and both states delegates get sat.

  3. Marco says

    I’m all for a redo. It was incredibly stupid of the DNC to wipe the delegates off the map. The RNC were smart enough to only cut half of theirs as punsihment, thus avoiding this problem.

  4. Sebastian says

    Shillary is really getting desperate and calling in all her markers, amazing,but, not really, anything to get beat by McCain for this woman.

  5. Naha says

    This is BULLSHIT. The states broke the rules, END OF STORY. Why do Democrats have to be such flaming pussies all the time? Voters in MI and FL should take it out on their respective state’s party. How convenient that a troublemaking GOP governor and a true blue Hillary supporter are pushing for new contests.

    Let’s be realistic about what is probably going on here: Hillary is forcing Obama to waste all of his money fighting her off, even though she has no way of winning the nomination without a massive superdelegate coup. Of course, she wants him to lose so she can run in 2012 when McCain probably won’t run again due to age.

    Just apportion the MI and FL delgates 50/50, seat them at the convention. They will have their voice in the party platform, it won’t waste any more money, and it adheres to the spirit of the DNC rules (that MI and FL have a net zero effect on nominee selection).

  6. Jimmybyo says

    Naha

    democrats are supposed to be the party that tries to do the right thing even when not convenient. Dems ae supposed to be better than repubs.

    MI’s white poulation is very much like wisconsin which went heavily for obama and it has a huge AA poulation so MI will most likely go Obama and FL will most likely go Hillary.

    Proper rule followng votes would be good for both states, the party, the nation, and both candidates.

  7. Jimmyboyo says

    Jack!

    Hillary’s own people are calling for a firehouse caucus. Those are shorter time periods and even fewer polling places than a reg caucus.

    Take a deep breath, relax.

  8. Alleen says

    If you believe in democracy you believe in voting. One person, one vote.

    Yes, the state parties broke the rules, and their punishment wouldn’t have made any difference if this election had gone as everyone expected…over by Super Tuesday.

    So what if they revote? Why not? It’s shocking to me to hear progressive, liberal Dems — even some dude from The Nation magazine! — braying the “THEY BROKE THE RULES!!!” so its too damned bad for the people of MI and FL. No votes for you. Wow. That’s not very democratic. All I can assume is that they are all Obama supporters. And they are afraid of people voting. Why? Just calm down, let the process work through and may the best candidate win.

  9. Naha says

    Well then MI and FL democrats should have pressured their state parties to abide by DNC rules … like EVERY OTHER STATE DID. Now, after the fact, many months later, it is a big deal. B.S. MI and FL gambled and lost. The state parties must take responsibility for their pathetic failures.

    What precedent does this set for the future? 50 states are going to ignore the DNC, creating primary calendar chaos. I mean, why follow the rules? They can just say “yea we broke the rules, but how can you deny our people the vote?? how can you!??!!?!” Um, because YOU broke the rules. YOU should answer for it. It’s not a dem vs. repub thing. It’s not a tactical issue as to who might benefit more from a re-do. It’s a matter of political and economic fairness.

    My solution (the 50/50 split) is the only logical one. It will reinforce the precedent that breaking DNC rules comes at a price. It will not cost taxpayers any more money. It will not drain campaigns of tens of millions of dollars needed to fight off John McCain. It will allow MI and FL state delegates to participate in all aspects of the convention other than nominee selection.

  10. Jimmyboyo says

    Alleen

    I am an Obama suporter from before it was cool (New Hampshire), and I support the redos 100%.

  11. Alleen says

    NAHA: “My solution (the 50/50 split) is the only logical one. It will reinforce the precedent that breaking DNC rules comes at a price.”

    I guess I would value the voting rights of individuals over rules of the parties. But that’s just my opinion.

    I would compare this situation to giving a student an F for missing an exam. Late you discover that the student was not to blame for missing it (missed bus? drunk parent?) and had to have a certain GPA to stay in sports and qualify for a college scholarship. Would I allow that student to come in and take that test over again? Or would I say “rules are rules” and stick with the F?

    Multi-million dollar cost of the revote is certainly a big punishment for the Democratic party if it chooses to go ahead with it. Given that they’ll need the $$ in the general, they probably won’t want to do that for FL and MI unless donors can cough it up now.

  12. says

    Alleen: Your analogy makes no sense…it’s not a case of a hapless student who, through no fault of his own, misses an exam. The students were there for the exam (a lot of them). The problem was the exam was set up by the school outside of the guidelines approved by the school a year ago, so the exam is faulty, period. Yes, there should be a re-do. However, FL and MI’s state Democratic parties should pay for it—they broke the rules and are now crying democracy. PLEASE. What’s next, primaries a year before the election? It’s a joke. If the candidates feel strongly about a re-do, then they can chip in. No way does the DNC bear any responsibility for what happened. Obama was stupid to keep his name off the ballot in MI, though. (By the way, I love both Hillary and Obama and would be happy with either winning the nomination because either one would bury McCain.)

  13. Derrick from Philly says

    Damn, if we’d had a “redo” of the Florida general election vote in 2000, we’d have never had this nincompoop in the White House for the last 7 years…a very dangerous nincompoop.

  14. says

    As a Floridian: the candidates told us that based on a vote by our legislature moving our primary–that our primary votes didn’t matter to them. As a result, the only people that turned up at the polls were those that were impacted by the property tax legislation, therefore landowners in Florida. A very limited voting segment. Therefore that vote cannot be used to represent us as a state. I don’t think a re-vote will do any good however, the damage was done. It wasn’t the Floridian people that moved the date up, it was the legislature playing their games. Looks like they didn’t play well doesn’t it? As a Florida Democrat, they made their bed and we shouldn’t have to pay for new linens, we should save up for tarps for our roofs!

    Obama and Clinton made a pledge to ignore Florida Voters. We are used to it, the least they could do is stick by their guns on an issue for once.

  15. 24play says

    Matthew,

    One small point: Obama didn’t stupidly “keep” his name off the MI ballot. Like Clinton and Edwards, he had already secured a place on the ballot before the DNC ruled. Then Obama and Edwards jumped through whatever administrative hoops were necessary to remove their names from the ballot. Clinton either failed or, more likely, chose not to remove hers. Typical.

  16. John says

    Even after Ohio and Texas, the media’s calling on Hillary to quit. They always spins the results in a manner that’s favorable to Obama. And while that’s certainly their perogative, one could always manipulate the data to send a different message.

    Though it is true that Obama has won many more states, were the media biased towards Hillary (in the same way they’re currently biased towards Obama)… they’d simply point out that if this were November, Hillary would have 266 electoral votes right now (and Obama 185).

    Eye of the beholder.

  17. Alan says

    Whatever the parties choose to do to decide their nominee is not democracy. They can choose to have a primary or a caucus or a tea party. That’s just the way it is. They are not one person = one vote. e.g. the party can weigh particular precincts or states more heavily because they are “more likely to vote democratic”. Fair doesn’t have anything to do with it. Nor does “feeling disenfranchised”. A lot of people in WA felt disenfranchised because they had to work on Saturday rather than go to a 2 hour caucus. But that’s the way the party chose to make their decision here.

    Yes, they can allow FL & MI to do another vote, or another teaparty or whatever. To me, it makes the party look spineless. To a Dem in FL, it might make them feel included. So the dems just have to decide who they can afford to piss off more.

  18. 24play says

    John,

    1) In the contest for 370 delegates on Tuesday, Clinton took home about 5—12 more than Obama. And Obama was endorsed by 5 superdelegates yesterday, so Clinton made no headway against his lead. That’s why the media is still questioning the viability of her campaign, especially since Obama will likely increase his lead further as a result of this week’s contests in WY and MS.

    By the middle of next week, despite her fantastic, decisive victories on Tuesday night, Hill will be in an even bigger delegate hole than she was when everyone was righting her off as finished last week.

    2) If this were November, either Democrat would be running against a Republican. States won in primaries do not equal electoral votes in those same states.

    Your beholder’s eye needs glasses.

  19. Jason says

    I have been a registered Democrat since 92′ and wrote several emails to my Senator and Congressman regarding the fact that the Dems were taking our vote away in Florida and basically got no response. My response was to change parties and I will not vote for any Democrats as my personal protest. I will vote 100% Republican this year. If my vote isn’t good enough for the Primary then it isn’t good enough for the General election. I hope Florida continues to change the date to make it the first Primary in the country.F**k Dean and F**k Iowa.

  20. psgoodguy says

    it’s important to note that while michigan democratic party knowingly broke party rules by moving up their primary, not so the case in florida.

    the primary date in florida was set by a republican governor and a republican legislature. it was not a maneuver by the florida democratic party to move up the primary.

  21. MCnNYC says

    Aileen and every other THEY BROKE THE RULES Obama supporters.

    A REPUBLICAN GOVENOR and a REPUBLICAN STATE CONGRESS in order to influence the GOP nomination mandated the day of the election.

    Voters could either vote that day.
    OR NOT VOTE.

    FL has a good case against the DNC disenfrancising the voters of that state.

    Let the vote stand.

  22. 24play says

    MC,

    How about all the voters who stayed home on primary day because the DNC had already declared Florida’s primary ineligible? Letting the outcome of the vote stand would disenfranchise all of them.

  23. Marco says

    Not four posts in before Senator Clinton is called “Shillery” and it’s not even Limbaugh doing the name calling.

    Must be that hope and change Obama keeps talking about.

    Whomever gets the nomination gets my vote in the fall. After that, I am out of this party for good. The hate Hillary first “progressive movement” truly sickens me.

  24. Michael Bedwell says

    There’s been a lot of talk in this campaign about “grassroots.” There’s more and more talk of the benefits of a combined H&O ticket. Some have said one or the other of them would never agree, but I’ve not seen anyone say it is a bad idea.

    This morning’s bombing in NYC, no matter how unrelated it will probably turn out to be to “organized terrorists,” reminds us of the kinds of things that could happen between now and November to convert a doddering old warmonger like McCain into someone the majority of voters, regardless of any present support for a Democrat, think is the best person to “protect us.”

    I respectfully urge each of you to start e-mailing both the Clinton and Obama camps, as well as the DNC, and demanding a joint ticket. You can state your preference for which would be better “on top,” but the important thing is the two together—combining their unique strengths and huge groups of supporters to defeat anything that Fate and the Rovians might throw at us.

    Here are some e-mail/contact addresses:

    http://www.hillaryclinton.com/help/contact/

    http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/contact2

    http://www.democrats.org/page/s/contact

    You have nothing to lose but a few minutes of your time—and a new world to gain.

    “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” – Margaret Mead

    “Human progress is neither automatic nor inevitable… Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.” – Martin Luther King, Jr.

    “We must be the change we wish to see in the world.” – Gandhi

  25. Sebastian says

    Why in the world would Obama want to be her veep? He has got more votes than she has, and, why on earth would he want to play second fiddle to her after all the smearing of his name and other nasty acts by her camp? I already would not have voted for her as I just don’t like her at all, but, her quip on his faith was the last straw, and, I’m hope he taks the gloves off and exposes her for what she really is, same old tiresome DC insider.

    And, just who is to pay for a re-vote, or does she by being “the Hillary Clinton” just get the votes, that were in a violation of the party rules? Yet another exapmle of why she isn’t qualifed, as big a flip flopper as Mitt.

    If, she is anywhere near the Democratic ticket, I will vote for anyone else on the ballot.

  26. Jmmyboyo says

    Sebastian because she ha a huge following

    simle politics

    1 obama supporter+ 1 Hillary supporter = 2 against 1 mccain supporter

    Hillary can’t dismiss Obama’s peole and Obama can’t dismiss Hillary’s people. Too many hurt feelings on one side or the other and we all end McCain pod people and pray for the day for Canada to liberate us

    YIKES!

    Obamahaded Clintonistas

    Clintonheaded Obamamaniacs

    It is time to unite the party

  27. patrick nyc says

    ‘Seat our delegates,’ Crist and Granholm demanded.”
    —————————–
    If they demand it they should pay for it. This is grandstanding of the worse kind. Crist is somehow trying to gain points in dragging this out, perhaps with a post in a McShame White House. No way they are putting a closet case on the ticket, especially with the trouble with the conservative base.

    Granholm is trying to gain points with Hillary, maybe again for a spot if she gets in. Either way the people should not have to pay for these idiots to figure it out, it’s bad enough that we have to watch their incompetence, without having to foot the bill.

  28. says

    As an outsider to this whole problem (I’m actually a Libertarian) let me suggest to you dueling Democrats a very simple solution to your current dilemma.

    And one that won’t cost a nickel to the taxpayers of either Florida or Ohio to boot.

    Here’s the idea: Arrange for the superdelegates to split their votes in such a way that neither Clinton or Obama gets the needed majority on the first vote. This should be mathematically do-able, as a small number are committed to Edwards anyways.

    The result? Yep…a brokered convention.

    It’s now a free-for-all! First order of business: vote to seat the Florida and Ohio delegates.

    On the second (and quite possibly additional) rounds of voting, NO delegate, super or regular, would be bound…and EVERY state would now get a vote. In fact, it need not even be Hillary or Obama…you guys might have second thoughts on both of them at the last minute, and would now be free to choose a “dark horse.”

    An additional side benefit of this plan: Undoubtably, it’d be the most highly entertaining political convention in the past 50 years! Personally, I’d stock up my house with salty snacks, and remain glued to CNN gavel to gavel for such a spectacle!

  29. Jimmyboyo says

    Well, I just got off the phone with Gallop poll. I have been polled

    Some interesting questions

    – they asked about the FL and MI revote
    – they asked about a united dem ticket of Obama/Clinon ….Clinton/ Obama
    – they asked if I was single or married and I tore into them a bit about their suck questin since I am gay and not allowed to mary

    Anyway; expect the poll to come out soon and it is already in the political sphere about a united ticket

  30. RB says

    So why “redo” the primaries in Michigan and Florida? The DNC wanted to punish the states and now they are asking for a recount?! And how much money have Obama and Clinton spent? So we have a dem party that is deeply split, confused and cannot make up their minds on whose votes to count and whose to throw out? WOW! So why again are they better for us? Just a thought….

  31. John says

    The Democrats are always confused.

    GOP primaries are winner take all affairs. That’s how McCain became the presumptive nominee on Super Tuesday even though he had only won only around 10 states at that point.

    McCain got all of the delegates in places like California and New York according to GOP rules, even though he barely broke 50% (because Romney and Huckabee split the other half).

    Which is why Hillary wishes she were a Republican right about now. Heh.

  32. queendru says

    Let’s get some BS out of the way. The FL State Democrat party decided how and when its primary would be held and NO ONE ELSE. Happened the same in other states. In some cases the major parties held votes or caucuses on different dates.

    Check the FL Dem website for the options they considered and reasoning for selecting or rejecting it: http://www.fladems.com/page/content/makeitcount-selectionanalysis/

    The rules were set, now some folks want “do overs” after votes have been cast and rules followed. If you throw out the rules, what is the fall-out? Why does the Democratic Party always want to eject the voting rules after the fact? Thanks, Al Gore.

    Hillary broke her pledge NOT to campaign in MI or FL. The other candidates KEPT their pledges. Why should she benefit for this breach of oath? She was the ONLY candidate on the MI ballot. Nothing fair there. She wants the nomination at ANY COST.

    The Democratic Party, DNS and in the states, only have themselves to blame for the chaos they’re having in coming up with a nominee. No one else is to blame (not even the GOP scapegoat). They decided the dates, they decided to have superdelegates, they decided the primary or caucus setups, they decided the punishments, they decided whether they were proportionally allotting delegates or not.

  33. nic says

    well, what happens when BEDWELL’s truth and mine blows up in your faces? what is to be done after hillary has won the major Democratic states of CA, NY, NJ, OH, MA, and MI and dem-leaning FL? and the state of tx, to boot. how can the party leaders defer to obama, who has won a bunch of red (not even purple) state caucuses?

    why aren’t the people of Massachusetts not outraged that, though the state went for hillary, the bloated kennedy (trying to remain relevant), the loser kerry, and the failed governor — super delegates all — have endorsed obama?

    the soul of the democratic party is doing well: a woman and a black man competing for the presidency of the world’s most powerful and most dangerous country!?… give me a fucking break. but, the dem party needs to do some serious soul searching. what is unfolding is not what party leaders had in mind with the super delegate system and placing so much importance on the small caca-, sorry, caucusing states.

    the dem party needs to reevaluate the process almost as badly as our country needs a change of leadership and a return to our collective sense of self: to wit, no torture, no invasion and occupation of countries, human and civil rights for all, and the washing of the body politic from all things rovian and machiavellian.

  34. qjersey says

    Caucuses are just plain wrong and violate my rights as a voter. I want to show up and pull a lever and be in and out in 15 minutes, I DONT want to stand around and be preached to in the effort to persuade me to vote one way or another. Caucuses are biased toward the fervent voters who have time to spare.

  35. Jimmyboyo says

    QJ

    There are benefits and problems with both.

    Primaries can be hacked and votes altered or erased, hanging chads, etc.

    Not very democratic

    The benefit of a caucus is that all votes can pretty much be seen by everybody else in the district “eyeswitnesses”

    You mentioned the problems with cacuses that primaries balance out.

    Both are good and bad for diefferent reasons. Both support and detract from democracy.

  36. nic says

    jimmyboyo,

    it is never a solution to rend the baby.
    FL and MI have to be acknowledged. those people showed up and did their duty. it is beyond stupid in this critical time to discount anyone’s vote.

  37. Jimmyboyo says

    NIC

    I totaly want them sat, but the revote delegates.

    Many MI people stayed home knowing it didn’t count per the rules. Many non home owning (big drawer was the home owner tax thingy on the ballot) FL people didn’t show up for the same reason.

    I know FL will go Hillary in a revote, but I can live with that as long as it is offical and by the rules.

    Seat them by all means, but the revoted ones.

    The clinton camapign seems a bit confused on their offical stance at the moment.

    Terry McAuliffe for the Hillary campaign the other day said they would accept firehouse caucues, Hillary now says no on caucuses. The latter being bad PR. In another couple of days I would expect them to be gung ho about it after hamering out the details.

  38. DC ARNOLD says

    Clinton has wanted it both ways since the inevitability cloak in her campaign wore off and like her husband has begun the negative attacks without much prompting. She is willing to ensure that the repugs gain another 4 years in the lily white house because she wants it her way. If she wants FL & MI badly enough to destroy her party and lose the lily white house because she backs the rules-breakers, she should also realize that there are more Clinton haters than Obama lovers. The repugs are wishing she wins the nomination because they know how to beat her, Obama is another story altogether.