11/12/2008
Bill O'Reilly Trying to Pit Gays Against Blacks
Bill O'Reilly would love nothing more than to see two minority groups going at each other's throats. Sorry, Bill.
Let me repeat a quote from Reverend Irene Monroe, which I posted here yesterday.
Reverend Irene Monroe in the Huffington Post: "The present-day contentious debate between black and queer communities concerning what constitutes a legitimate civil rights issue and which group owns the right to use the term is both fueled and ignored by systemic efforts by our government that deliberately pits both groups against each other rather than upholding the 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution that affords each of these marginal groups their inalienable rights. While it is true that the white LGBTQ community needs to work on its racism, white privilege, and single-issue platform that thwart all efforts for coalition building with both straight and queer communities of color, the African-American community needs to work on its homophobia."
And Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight has a very good post on the voting statistics that debunks many of the myths about who voted and who didn't.
The fact is, gays and straight allies are protesting outside Mormon churches because the LDS church funded Proposition 8 to the tune of $22.88 million, nearly 80% of its total funding, and demanded its members (even its out of state members) contribute toward the overturning of civil rights for gay and lesbian Americans.
AND: A recently-discovered document shows that the Mormon church began plotting its strategy to stop same-sex marriage at least eleven years ago.
And the Mormon church's anger has placed the focus on the lack of civil rights for LGBT Americans in this country, and THAT is where the focus must and will soon turn.
Watch O'Reilly, AFTER THE JUMP...
Posted 10:01 AM EST by Andy Towle in Bill O'Reilly, California, Mormon, News, Proposition 8 | Permalink
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@ The CITIZEN
Ah. Yes. Thank you.
Posted by: banjiboi | Nov 12, 2008 11:58:20 AM
Cassius,
I think what I find personally offensive about your rhetoric is that I know plenty of AA's who are very pro-gay. I also know AA's who ARE gay. I can't stand by and listen to someone label all AA's homophobic.
The real issue here (and see Banjiboi's post above) is class, access to education and privilege . . . and religious extremism. I think the religious aspect is probably the biggest culprit in all of this . . . and guess what? Religion knows no race. I think a systematic protest of anti-gay churches (white, black, polkadotted) is appropriate here. But bitching and moaning about the blacks in general (and not ALL of them go to Church . . . just like not all gays love Cher) is not helpful.
Posted by: Alex | Nov 12, 2008 12:00:01 PM
...so cassius, white gays voted for obama as a favor to Black people...? GTFOH!
Posted by: yeahisaidit | Nov 12, 2008 12:01:27 PM
Myself and most of the people that I know are not blaming the AA community for the passing of Prop 8. We certainly don't blame anyone who voted against the measure, that would be absurd. But we are appalled that blacks, (of all people!)would vote in such numbers to strip civil rights from another group. There is no excuse for people who have suffered oppression in the exact same way as us to not have empathy for our cause as LGBT Americans. To simply rob me of my rights by checking a box! The same is true of the Mormons for that matter, but I don't believe they have suffered nearly as much from bigotry and hatred as AA's have. I would expect the black experiance with this issue would trump religious beliefs.
People are claiming that the NO on 8 campaign didn't do enough outreach to the AA community. But WHY on EARTH should they have to???? If ANY person from ANY minority group doesn't get that this is the same struggle that they have gone through, and CONTINUE to go through, SHAME on them.
We know that Black voters were not soley responsible for this horrible result and there were many black voters on our side. But we are sickened that they played any part at all in this bigotry.
I guess some protesters have have been saying horrible racist things, which should be soundly CONDEMNED--there is no place for that--but it is also impossible to control the spoken words of every single protester. There are always a small handful of wackos at these things. I have participated in 3 protest rallys/marches in the LA area for a total of 15 hours and I have not seen or heard any racist remarks at all. That doesn't mean they haven't occured, but I think these are VERY isolated incidents and do NOT represent the mind set of the group as a whole one bit. If we do hear anything like that we will shut that person down. We are all marching together side by side, people of all different backgrounds, and it is a wonderful thing.
Posted by: Jeffrey | Nov 12, 2008 12:02:48 PM
While I'm at it, what about those of us who are gay, black AND white, who simply are not as passionate about marriage, gay or no, to begin with?
Where was the outreach to gay minorities? I recently read a piece about Prop 8 organizers staging awareness campaigns in Fan Francisco's Castro district, and next to no campaigning in the black gay areas of Oakland. This is a mistake that the gay community seems to repeat over and over again. It is simply assumed that we SHOULD be aware and SHOULD vote in favor ACCORDINGLY. But only until a conscious effort is made by the community as whole to ACTIVELY include all voices will things change.
THE KEY IS OUTREACH. To black churches. To other segments of our community. And perhaps, just maybe, simply call it MARRITAL RIGHTS FOR ALL, exlcuding other species, of course. Period.
Talk about oblivious.
Posted by: banjiboi | Nov 12, 2008 12:11:27 PM
Argh! Look, this is divide and conquer politics. People why be so stupid about this? The Right-wing has used the initiative process against people of color just as effectively against gays!
Throughout America, the Right has sponsored so-called "Civil Rights Initiatives" that do nothing but kill Affirmative Action programs based on gender and race. California passed one. Michigan passed one and a ban on any kind of same sex unions.
Folks, some of us are also missing the point about how initiatives allow for mob rule and oppression of minorities. Do you think this will end marriage? Hell no! It's about pushing GLBT Americans into the closet, stripping us of all hard one rights.
O'Reilly is a part of the Right-wing hate machine. He wants to drive a wedge. That's how Republicans have been successful in politics for years.
Step back and look at the election. Look at all of the racist and homophobic stuff thrown at Obama by McCain and the GOP attack forces. They sought to divide and conquer.
Don't let scumbags like the Queen of Douchebaggery deceive you. When is the last time you ever heard of anyone walking into an African-American church and getting his/her "ass kicked"?
Uh, the most famous references about people suffering violence in "black churches" are black people like the four little girl murdered in a fire-bombing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Little_Girls
Where was the Queen's concern about gay rights when for months the idiot was cheering John McCain and "La Palin" even though McCain supported Prop 8 and Palin called for a federal amendment banning any kind of gay unions?
"The Queen" is just another (racist) Republican troll who wants to play games.
Finally, I suggest strongly that people consider that we have to fight for FEDERAL protections against discrimination also! There are ZERO federal laws that prevent discrimination based on sexual orientation!
Posted by: noah | Nov 12, 2008 12:13:40 PM
We won't be fooled. The people picketing this funeral are the people trying to divide us.
http://www.sovo.com/2006/2-10/news/localnews/L2.cfm
Posted by: JP in SF | Nov 12, 2008 12:20:05 PM
Hey Jeff. Learn.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8116
http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2008/11/not-one-black-g.html
Posted by: TheCitizen | Nov 12, 2008 12:22:08 PM
Not all African Americans are homophobic. So, lets get that out of the way right now. 30-35% of blacks voted against Prop. 8, even if you believe the same pre-election and exit polls the racists here are touting as "gospel."
Not all Mormons are homophobic either. Although there's no polling data available, we know it wasn't 100% for Prop. 8 because no demographic ever votes totally in lockstep.
However, the high percentage of anti-gay votes from these demographic groups, as well as the numerous donations to "Yes on 8," does raise serious concerns about the Mormon and African-American communities. I happen to believe the homophobia comes mainly from the churches. But that's the serious discussion we should be having, not this immature "race war" nonsense. I know many white men are angry right now, but it is never acceptable to throw the N-word around folks.
Posted by: John in CA | Nov 12, 2008 12:28:12 PM
I am willing to go on the Bill O'Reilly show and make out with Taye Diggs if anyone thinks that will help.
Posted by: crispy | Nov 12, 2008 12:28:19 PM
P.S.
Meant "hard won." Sorry about the typos. :-/
P.P.S.
Please don't lose focus of getting your representatives and senators aware about ENDA and other gay civil rights laws. Federal law trumps state law!
Posted by: noah | Nov 12, 2008 12:29:11 PM
@ BANJIBOY
I have a big problem with your argument on the Civil Rights issue. Just because a gay white person (or any gay person) might be able to hide their gayness, doesn't make it so different from the AA situation.
1. Not every gay person can hide their gayness
2. Some who identify as AA can "pass" as white or PR or Native if they wish
3. NO ONE should feel that they should have to hide their identity, whether that's AA, gay, trans, Wiccan, etc. Hiding one's ID is unhealthy physically and psychologically and becomes a simple human rights issue.
And just like when I compare my marriage to that of heterosexual friends, when I compare the struggle for civil rights with those of AA friends, I find little difference. YES, there are some differences, but mostly it's the same: EQUALITY BEFORE THE LAW.
Social equality is a separate issue and here gay white men are in a mostly better position than African Americans. Does that mean that gay white men should stop fighting for social equality? No. I shouldn't, as a gay white man, have to worry about mentioning my husband when I'm talking with clients, but I do. I have been physically and verbally attacked on the street for being gay, or being white, or both. Social stigma and social attacks are heinous no matter what the reason.
@ Jasmyn Cannick (DAVID's URL): I usually like Cannick's writings but she makes a grave mistake in her argument. She assumes that the fight for marriage is the ONLY fight amongst white gay people (yes, the Gay Power Base). It's not. Just read the literature from Lambda Legal and other organizations (not HRC or GLAAD). Or note how many gays have been working hard to elect Obama.
Posted by: David R. | Nov 12, 2008 12:36:09 PM
Jeffery
I believe your feelings stem from your ignorace and or apathy of black people/culture in general.
I think I posted a couple of links that explains the situation better but it was removed?
TerranceofDC writes an excellent analysis of the homosexuality and the black community over at Pam's House Blend.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8116
Posted by: TheCitizen | Nov 12, 2008 12:37:18 PM
I should have written: social equality is usually improved by legal equality, so it's not completely separate.
Posted by: David R. | Nov 12, 2008 12:38:07 PM
I said
"I think I posted a couple of links that explains the situation better but it was removed?"
Nevermind. My computer must be slow.
Posted by: TheCitizen | Nov 12, 2008 12:40:39 PM
Jeffery,
I repeat, while the forms of oppression visited upon blacks and gays are appalling, to say the least, they are NOT THE SAME. And in this country, they will most likely NEVER be viewed the same, especially amongst blacks and racial minorities as a whole.
Do not get confused about this. Educate yourself.
Posted by: banjiboi | Nov 12, 2008 12:41:36 PM
We can blame all of this on what I think Bill Maher called "the little book of Jewish Fairy Tales" (Bible).
Posted by: 2nd Class Citizen | Nov 12, 2008 12:47:44 PM
As much as its nice to know that the gay community worked hard to ensure Obama's victory, I find it insulting when non-black homosexuals suggest that they supported Obama because of his race and his race only, thus excusing them of any sort of racism they may harbor or promote or the apathy and ignorace they have of black people as well as gay black people. Its insulting.
Truly. Its EXTREMELY insulting.
Posted by: TheCitizen | Nov 12, 2008 12:48:48 PM
I have a few thoughts. One, I don't EVEN think the exit poll was accurate. According to the poll, 75% of black women voted for Prop 8. If African Americans voted 70% for Prop 8, that means that black men HAD to vote 63% percent for Prop 8. In every other group, women were less opposed to gay marriage. So, black men are more liberal about gays getting married than black women by 12 points? That's crazy.
Two, the field poll on October 31, 2008 had African Americans split 49% to 43% in favor of Prop 8. While the poll didn't get all the numbers right, the percentages were somewhat close to the CNN exit poll-- except with respect to African Americans. (I think it is entirely possible that you get to 70% among older black voters-- but not among black people overall.)
Three, according to the Field poll Obama voters were against Prop 8 21% to 73%. Does anyone doubt that African Americans were hard core Obama supporters? I'm not saying that black people were against Prop 8, but to be so rabidly for it? It seems something is has got to be wrong with the CNN poll.
Four, 74% of African American voters support adding sexual orientation to hate crimes. (That's the SAME percentage as whites and higher than Hispanics.) And, 61% of African Americans favor adding sexual orientation and gender to the protected classes under federal civil rights law. That is HIGHER than whites (58%) and Hispanics (56%). (Cassius, did you notice THOSE statistics?)
So how did the story become: it's black people's fault. How, despite the two polls I cited in my prior paragraph, that have been cited by HRC, did an entire community become labeled as prejudiced. How was it possible that no one questioned the results of the CNN poll?
Yes people are angry. I understand that. But, it's hard to see part of the reaction as bias. We cannot talk about issues involving black people without making assumptions. I've read so many posts of people talking about what goes on in black churches who undoubtedly have never been to a black church. We cannot have a dialogue without attributing something said by one black person to every black person. I don't know any white person that wants to be linked to bigots like David Duke or the Fred Phelps. But, we don't apply the same standard to black people. That's bias.
We expect that black people see being anti-gay marriage as discrimination and hold them to a higher standard. How many gay people had no issues with jettisoning protections for transexuals from ENDA? Were these gay men bigots? It is possible that supporting a non-trans inclusive ENDA meant you hated trans people? Why didn't gays understand that as discrimination. Oh, and what about the gay men hating on the sissies among us. Gay people are in a liberation struggle, but yet the community discriminates against feminine guys all the time. That seems incredibly hypocritical. What I like about being gay is that I can play sports, and I do, but STILL sing show tunes if I want. I don't have to conform to gender stereotypes. But this sort of bias regarding gender affect still occurs unchecked among gay people.
Mormons supported Prop 8--DESPITE the discrimination they faced. Why don't we ask how they could support the discrimination of Prop 8? Japanese Americans/Asians were placed in internment camps, but the CNN poll says that 49% of Asians voted FOR Prop 8. That's a lot of people that "should" know better.
I don't have any issue with engaging and confronting bias and bigotry WHEREVER it exists. But, I do have an issue with trying to collectively hold black people to a different standard to which many gay people hold themselves and to which many gay people refuse to hold other groups that have faced discrimination. To me, this is pretty clear evidence of bias.
Last but not least Andy, while Bill O'Reilly may try to start trouble between blacks and gays the damage was done LONG before Bill O'Reilly. I think black gay people, many of whom already feel unwelcome by the gay community, are pretty distraught. I KNOW I am. I just hope that this rift can be bridged BEFORE the next battle.
Posted by: Brandon | Nov 12, 2008 12:52:37 PM
@ David
I think you missed my point. It was about sex and race. Maybe not all white gays can hide their sexual identity, but let's keep it real, they have the OPTION to do so, if they so CHOOSE. I'm simply stating the obvious that caucasians FAR outnuber people of color in this country, and in our community. And can, by and large enjoy many of the same advantages of the majority of our society which people of color cannot. It is just another factor, albeit a large one, in this particular matter.
The Black Civil Rights Movement has paved the way for the Gay Civil Rights Movement, yes, but that's where the similarities end. Please dig deeper and take a look at what's going on around you. Talk to and read other sources, particularly those of the gay minority community and you'd be surprised at what you will learn.
Posted by: banjiboi | Nov 12, 2008 12:53:27 PM
@ BRANDON
I, too, am perplexed at the assumption that this issue is just now being instigated by some right-wing idiot blowhard, when it's been going on right under our noses ALL ALONG.
Yes, folks, meet the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.
Posted by: banjiboi | Nov 12, 2008 12:58:40 PM
Something to keep in mind is, what O'Reilly and the scum like him are doing has been going on since the beginning of time and suits the goals of their masters perfectly. For example -- back at the beginning of the 19th Century in Belfast and Derry, the centers of Irish industry at the time, Catholic and Protestant workers banded together to try and improve wages and working conditions. For a few years they were quite successful, but then the gentry and the government began stoking the idea that Catholics were out to take jobs and homes away from hard-working Protestants and force them all to swear allegiance to the Pope. There was already a strong anti-Catholic feeling and innate sense of victim-hood amongst most of the Protestant population, so that quickly swelled to the vicious discrimination against and outright murder of "Papists" that's lasted nearly 200 years. And who came out on top? The rich and the government. O'Reilly's just following a proven path -- make people hate each other and you can get away with anything.
Posted by: Kyle Michel Sullivan | Nov 12, 2008 1:05:15 PM
How does the 13th Amendment (freeing slaves) and the 14th Amendment (citizenship for slaves) relate to Prop 8? The African-American community is protected by US laws but the gay community is not.
Posted by: bullsh^t | Nov 12, 2008 1:05:23 PM
@ BULLSHIT
That's bullshit. Gays are protected by Federal Law against sexual discrimination.
Posted by: Banjiboi | Nov 12, 2008 1:27:42 PM
Sorry. didn't mean to spell that word out.
Posted by: banjiboi | Nov 12, 2008 1:29:15 PM