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1. Q,

   Are you serious? Shanikka did not refute, much less dissect, anything. Her post is a cathartic diary, an outpouring of condemnation of "hateful white gay bigots" ad nauseum. CNN shows that while 70% of Black Californians as a whole vote for Prop 8, no age category came close! Those sixty-five and older voted at about 61% for it. Number for number who contributed more to the failure of gay marriage, white retirees or blacks in general? If we are going to get anywhere in this earthly life, you MUST gather up the courage to confront old social norms within your racial community, whichever one it is - as whites already have, for the most part. This is just another phase of the battle - are gay blacks and hispanics and blacks morally battle-ready to confront the older generation and the church or are they going to just piss and moan within a gay community that had no hang-ups electing a black president? Discuss.

   Posted by: Antaeus | Nov 12, 2008 8:08:52 PM

   
   

2. Antaeus

   Every Black person here has REPEATEDLY denounced homophobia in their community. Has the whites here denounced the homophobia in their communities? You know, the community who far outweighs the black community in numbers, financial and political power? The numbers, the money, the political power that brought Prop 4 out of the ground and unto the surface? Why aren't we talking about them? I haven't seen one post or article alluding to this particular group.

   Scapegoating. Scapegoating. Scapegoating.

   Posted by: TheCitizen | Nov 12, 2008 8:47:06 PM

   
   

3. Prop 4 = Prop 8

   P.S. The black community needs to work on its homophobia. The gay community needs to work on its NEGLECT and APATHY towards people of color as well.

   Posted by: TheCitizen | Nov 12, 2008 8:52:54 PM

   
   

4. ``I can NOT imagine a plurality of gay men voting to have any rights REMOVED from black people.``

   Strepsie, neither can I. I am in an interracial relationship, and I have never run into ANY problem in the gay community because of it. It could be that some here run in different circles than I do, but I have never yet met even ONE gay woman or man who did not support equal rights for blacks.

   ``To believe that, one would have to believe that that there were no gay men alive in 1967...``

   Carly, of course there were gay men alive in 1967. According to Coretta Scott King, many of those brave gay women and men were standing shoulder to shoulder with her and her husband MLK during the civil rights movement for blacks, fighting for her freedom ``when they could find few voices for their own.``
   But your comment seems to suggest that gay men should have been able to pull the strings to change the laws singlehandedly, and if we can`t do that now I don`t know why you would think we could have then.

   Posted by: GregV | Nov 12, 2008 11:09:09 PM

   
   

5. Antaeus,

   Did you read shannika's post? If so, what part of it would you say can be characterized as "a cathartic diary, an outpouring of condemnation of 'hateful white gay bigots'"? I'm all for rebutting arguments but not out of hand.

   Instead of dismissing her post why haven't you given an example of why her analysis is incorrect. What part of her post is erroneous? Falsified? Does she not cast any reasonable doubt on the authority you've placed in CNN's exit poll?

   shannika's post is quite long so how about we narrow it down to the first "factually unsupported myth" that she puts forth. Read the last paragraph in that section; out of hand you can dismiss this point as if it has no significance to the figures that CNN published and which you and many others use as reference? If so, I would love to know why? (I'm not being rhetorical in my questions, or snotty. I think her post, while rambling in some areas, was well done and I'm curious why you think otherwise).

   Posted by: mikey d | Nov 13, 2008 12:56:01 AM

   
   

6. If we are going to get anywhere in this earthly life, you MUST gather up the courage to confront old social norms within your racial community, whichever one it is - *as whites already have, for the most part.*

   Anateus, are YOU serious? Is that why there is so much racial harmony and inclusion in the gay community? Get real, hon!You definitely are seeing what you WANT to see!
   You make these generalizations about Blacks and what they are NOT doing, yet I would bet that you have done not a lick of research to find out if that's true. Are you getting your facts from CNN exit polls or from being in the Black community and speaking with them? What white racists have you confronted lately about their "social norms?" Yeah, that's what I thought. "Morally battle ready?!" Why don't you ask some of the gay minorities that have been beaten, abused, kicked out, disowned, excommunicated, and lionized for going toe-to-toe with the churches and/or their elders. But of course, in order to LEARN anything, you would have to REACH OUT, which is beneath you.

   Shanikka's diary was cathartic for her (and many of us) but her point was to expose the warped logic of the CNN poll and she did so wonderfully. You couldn't have possibly read the whole thing because she does not let Black homophobia off the hook. But she did address the "white hateful gay bigots" by tearing down the myths of their hateful vitriol and scapegoating. The same scapegoating that you and several others insist on perpetrating. Since you want to play the numbers game, number for number who contributed more to the failure of Prop 8, whites or blacks?

   As for electing a Black president, I thought that gay white people voted for Obama because he was the best choice, NOT BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK. If that was your reasoning, what does that say about YOUR character? Are you "morally battle ready" to confront THAT?

   Your comments attacked gay Blacks and Hispanics, the Black church, old Blacks and Blacks in general. If YOU are going to get anywhere in this earthly life, you MUST gather up the courage to confront old social norms within your own damn head.
   

   Posted by: Q | Nov 13, 2008 12:56:43 AM

   
   

7. Guys, it's too late. The ugly lies, ugly truths, and ugly half-truths have taken root, and like it or not mistrust and skepticism have risen to new levels in the "gay community" that won't start to recede for a long, long time.

   We'll hate each other more, but we'll get more accomplished. We won't count on anyone else to do our heavy lifting, and we won't care as much about each other's feelings. We'll turn away from each other and towards the communities we know best, and we'll start our attacks there.

   This dragon will not be defeated by some noble army of virtuous, like-minded people. It will be destroyed from the inside out by a thousand loathsome maggots, each gnawing selfishly at a different organ.

   And when the dragon is finally dead, each maggot will crawl away from the corpse in its own singular direction, completely indifferent to the fate of the others.

   You don't have to like it.

   
   

   Posted by: Yeek | Nov 13, 2008 5:39:37 PM

   
   

8. Thank you Q!!

   these white gays are determined to try to scapegoat the black community for their own failures. You can walk around blaming the 72 percent of the 6 percent of black people in CA all you want, but the truth lies with the other 94 PERCENT who voted against gays.

   The REAL TRUTH behind why gays are upset at black people is because black people will not validate the gay struggle as an authentic civil rights fight.

   Gays know that if black people back them, then it changes the whole game completely.
   Fortunately (and yes, I mean fortunately) black people and black gays know the real motives of white gays and more importantly the not so hidden racism that lies beneath.

   Posted by: ISpy | Nov 13, 2008 11:00:29 PM

   
   
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