Comments

  1. Paul R says

    How many members do the Log Cabin Repubs have? The site gives no indication. It was quite easy to learn of all the marvelous benefits that would be mine for various donations—those for $25K and up were especially tempting.

    I ask because I wonder how much longer this organization will be around. No one wants them, and I can’t imagine that gay Republicans get much benefit from donating to them.

  2. GayRepublican says

    This is a great day for my party. Mr. Steele is an outsider who will hopefully make some big changes in terms of structure and organization that have been long overdue. People who dismiss this as a ‘token’ or something similar don’t really understand the intraparty war that the RNC has been going through the past few months.

    Oh, and as for his position on gay marriage, our current Democratic President also believes that marriage is between one man and one woman, so unfortunately, it appears we have a long way to go in both parties on that issue.

  3. John in CA says

    I might be (mis)underestimating Steele. But he did lose that election in 2006. And based on what we know of his positions, this isn’t exactly “change we can believe in.” It is the same hopelessly backward and reactionary Republican Party (with a token African American as nominal leader).

    Will the GOP win the 40 House and 10 Senate seats needed to gain control of Congress in 2010?

    Nothing is impossible in politics. Though I doubt it. The way they’re going, it is highly likely the Republicans will be in the wilderness for many years.

  4. ALTONA says

    gayrepublican – it’s difficult to read your defensive comment and not feel sorry for LGBT republicans. Most of you seem to be libertarians/fiscal conservatives who fantasize or hallucinate that the GOP does not have at its base a plurality of racist, homophobic, hyper-religious conservatives.

    It will be a great day for America when you and a good chunk of the Republican party realize that you need to separate the wheat from the chaff and act like decent fiscal conservatives but social liberals or moderates IN A NEW PARTY. You may argue all you like that we outsiders don’t understand or are painting you all with the same brush, but it’s hard to believe the GOP has much left in the tank. Rebrand or be replaced.

  5. Ed says

    Ha ha! it’s a great day for the Repugnican Party as the Log Cabin’s see it.

    ??!?

    So, basically for the rest of us not in lala land, it’s a meaningless appointment of another political hack who will do nothing, serve no one’s best interests and prevent the country from any modicum amount of progress.

    HA HA… the comedy never ends. I for one will gleefully watch from the sidelines as this destructive increasingly irrelevant party implodes and I welcome all the GLBT (Repug’s) back to earth when they wake up and say “WTF was I thinking!?!?”

    😛

  6. Jay says

    Every time I see Michael Steele in a headline, I keep going to The Bangles bassist first. Then I remember he’s not that cool.

    No disrespect intended, but the timing of his selection smacks of Palinism (that is to say, I think they chose someone whose demographics vaguely match the “opponent”) rather than an actual sea change. Time will tell, though. If he can actually manage bipartisanship, good for him. Not gonna hold my breath.

  7. Clay says

    Steele has a genuine record of advocating in favor of outreach and a broader GOP. He may disappoint, but he’s by far the most moderate and progressive of the candidates for the position. Just this week he laid into the RNC’s complete failure to reach out to diverse communities.

    I don’t suggest giving him the benefit of the doubt (the GOP are out chances there), but I would urge giving him a fair hearing. And I would argue that slamming the door on the GOP’s remaining moderate, pragmatic voices simply guarantees the continued dominance of the extremist right-wing fringe over that party. If gay rights are ever to be secure in this country, then BOTH parties will have to be worked with and both parties must be held accountable for their actions.

  8. GayRepublican says

    I didn’t really consider my comment to be ‘defensive’. I strongly disagree with your claim that the republican base is racist in any sense, but we’re never going to agree on that issue, so debating it is rather pointless.

    However, I will comment on your idea of forming a third party. There is already a Libertarian Party out there. The problem is that the American political system (unlike other systems where coalitions can be formed easily) is pretty much a two-party system. In order for a third party to work, it’d take lots of Democrats and Republicans coming together to form that third party. That’s extremely difficult. And not to act like I’m wearing tin foil, but with the corruption in politics today, the Dem and Repub leaders aren’t going to let the formation of a significant third party happen without a fight.

    Rebranding is a much more realistic option and believe me, it’s certainly being worked on at the grassroots level.

    As for what the GOP has left in the tank, we’ll see how the 2010 and 2012 elections go. These are difficult times and the people will not be very forgiving. It’s quite possible that Obama will be a one-termer (and perhaps for no fault of his own). I think it’d be wise for the Dems not to get too cocky just because they’ve done well in the past two elections. We all saw what happened to the Republicans when they got full of themselves and gave up their principles.

  9. says

    I met and grilled him in Denver about his views on LGBT subjects. His exact words in regards to the Republican and it’s views on Gays?

    “Don’t worry my brother, a change is gonna come”.

    I’m happy for him and think he might actually make some changes around there.

  10. GayRepublican says

    To clarify my earlier comment (since my obsessive compulsive self can’t let it go), I meant rebrand in the sense of changing the image and themes, not the name and entire structure.

  11. DB says

    I dunno Gayrepublican, I mean, the whole “Barak the Magic Negro” (which doesn’t even fit the meter of the song) and that Repub women’s organization that sent out the newsletter with the cartoon with Obama surrounded by watermelons. I’m not saying it’s the whole base but the GOP definitely has issues.

  12. GayRepublican says

    “No, he believes Civil Unions are what are necessary for now. I mean, his Church Marries Gay Couples so it’s a purely political move.”

    If you’re talking about Obama, then he has actually said that he believes that BS that marriage is one man, one woman. When asked if this meant that he opposed SSM, he said yes. Maybe it is just a political move, but I have my doubts. His actions will tell us what we need to know. As he has yet to actually sign any gay rights legislation or do much on gay rights (which is understandable since he’s only been in office a few days), he’s still a blank canvass upon which we can draw whatever fantasies we want. Don’t misunderstand me. This is an area where I want to be wrong.

  13. mwf says

    Yes, the party of:

    – greed

    – money-grubing, unadulterated greed to enrich themselves and their family

    – hypocrisy
    a) saying they are for limited government all the while creating MORE government and intervention into people’s lives
    b) saying they are for less spending all the while spending MORE than their Democratic counterparts

    is going to ‘rebrand’.

    I think everyone on the planet knows that ‘rebranding’ is just advertising jargon for ‘false advertising’ and deception.

    Nothing in the Republican party will change until the OLD politicians with antiquated views are dead – which shouldn’t be too long since the average age in Congress of the GOP must be about 85.

    America spoke on November 4th. Sorry it’s taken you so long to get the message. But it must be related to the paragraph ahead.

    And just a reminder: Adolf Hitler was a right wing conservative.

  14. ALTONA says

    gayrepublican, you must not have seen any of those videos outside (McCain/)Palin rallies with people screaming that BHO is a Muslim n-word and a dude waving a stuffed toy monkey called Barack. Most Republicans are probably not racist (nor are all liberals colorblind, sadly), but I’d bet a lot of money that most racists vote Republican.

    Your comment was pretty defensive – talking about tokenism and his stance on gay marriage before anyone else had commented on it. I know the comparison is inevitable but if you genuinely think his position on marriage is closer to the ideal than Obama’s, then you’re definitely hallucinating. But that’s understandable: if I was a member of a party that seems to hate gay people more than they value freedom then I’d be offering up hocus pocus too. Why do you even identify as Republican? Why not call yourself a gay conservative? Anti-gay measures are a core part of the GOP platform. Y’all confuse me.

    Your arguments about a 3rd party might make sense on paper, but other countries miraculously make it work, so I don’t see why we can’t. You could always do your rebranding by liberalizing your social positions and shoving out the social conservatives into their own little group.

    I hope you’re right about Steele acting as a moderating or even progressive force within the party and I’ll certainly give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact that he’s a Catholic at least means he probably believes in evolution, which is always a plus.

    As for the Republicans giving up their principles over the years, I think it’s fairer to say they showed their true colors…

  15. GayRepublican says

    Oh, lordy, MWF, so much bile there. Talk about a form of reductio ad Hitlerum. Please tell me you didn’t just say, “And just a reminder: Adolf Hitler was a right wing conservative.” You do realize that one can name any number of leftists who were tyrants or evil? Your post is emotion-based, not logic-based.

  16. GayRepublicasn says

    Altona,

    Thank you for your thoughtful response.

    I did bring up the ‘token’ issue, but the gay marriage issue was brought up by the blog post itself.

    Two things.

    One, I didn’t say that Steele’s position is closer to the ideal than Obama’s. I was merely pointing out that on the issue mentioned by this blog that Obama himself has also stated he believes marriage is one man, one woman, so on that issue they seem to be pretty close. (Whether, as others here have suggested, that’s just a political move on his part, is something we’ll have to see.)

    Two, as for third parties, most countries where multiple parties work well have a parliamentary system where coalition government is not unusual. In order to have a similar situation n the US, we’d have to make quite a few changes to our structure and our Constitution. That’s a tall order.

    Thanks for the reasonable discussion. It’s refreshing to have one with someone on the ‘other side’ without it leading to name-calling. (I post on different political boards. Far too many people don’t know how to act civilized on the Internet.)

    Take care. :)

  17. anon says

    I think it’s safe to say that party leaders are by definition hacks. That’s their job!

    More worrisome are all the Clintonite water carriers that are bashing Obama already.

  18. altona says

    Some of my best friends are Republicans :)

    Actually, I thought I was a bit snippy. You certainly win in the politeness ratings. Thanks indeed for the discussion!

  19. mwf says

    Wow, a republican accusing someone with an opposing view of not using logic…that’s rich.

    I have come to the conclusion that one of the reasons the Republican party nurtured the evangelicals is that they are a gaggle of people that time and time again will prove they do not use logic, common sense or intellect.

    This was confirmed for the Republicans after the Catholic priest gay sex scandals. The Republicans realized that if someone rapes your son or daughter and you STILL continue to support the institution from where the abuse took place, imagine what the party could do with such a constituency.

    Anyone that was leaning Republican after dubya stole the election in 2000 and STILL believes in the principles of the Republican party 8 years later, is clearly someone that falls into that religious mind-set that will not use intelligence, common sense or logic. So the Republicans will continue to cater to that base.

    One way they did it was by proclaiming Democrats the “tax and spend” politicians.

    The Democrats, being a nicer group of politicians, did not go on the offense and use the term “borrow and spend” against the Republicans.

    When Democrats want something, they believe it should be paid for as it is created.

    In 1898, for the Spanish American war, America actually PAID for the war by taxing the wealthy, via a tax on their phone bill, as only the wealthy had phones in 1898. Though it took the government over a 100 years to eliminate the tax.

    Wonder what happened to 100 years of taxes toward a war that ended so very long ago?

    I can pretty much guarantee you that if the Republicans had told the American people there would be a tax to pay for the Iraq invasion/war, they would have been against it.

    When Republicans want something, they believe they can borrow the money, since they, as OLD people that have been career politicians and won’t be around to pay even the interest on the debt they have created, much less pay off the principal, don’t really care about what happens after they (the Republicans politician) are gone.

    And, if you tell your followers that by minimizing or eliminating social programs it will make people more responsible, it in reality hides the fact that:

    – More doctors, clinics, other providers, etc fraudulently bill and milk Medicare, Medicaid and other entitlement programs than the few individual citizens that file fraudulent claims

    – More corporations, lobbyists, etc take advantage of government funds (tax dollars) than do individual citizens via entitlement programs, etc

    So while the Republican party has been raiding the cookie jar the past 8 years, they continue to cater to the deaf, dumb and blind, most of which believe in something called “heaven”, “hell”, “god”, “devil”, “bible”, talking snakes, etc.

    Fortunately, we have elected a President that speaks for US, THE people. And fortunately, in district after district, WE, THE people have voted OUT the morons that call themselves Republicans.

    Because WE know that Republican in this day and time, just means “money-grubbing-greedy bastard” that only seeks to enrich himself and his friends.

    And I really see no difference between Adolf Hitler and a group of politicians that embrace stereotypes and feel Anne Coulter, Fox News and Rush Limbaugh are intelligent and that “Barack the magic Negro” is funny.

    And yes, Mr Steele is a token…..much like Sarah Palin was for the election.

    Republicans, always trying to play catch-up. And in the most insincere way….

  20. mwf says

    Wow, a republican accusing someone with an opposing view of not using logic…that’s rich.

    I have come to the conclusion that one of the reasons the Republican party nurtured the evangelicals is that they are a gaggle of people that time and time again will prove they do not use logic, common sense or intellect.

    This was confirmed for the Republicans after the Catholic priest gay sex scandals. The Republicans realized that if someone rapes your son or daughter and you STILL continue to support the institution from where the abuse took place, imagine what the party could do with such a constituency.

    Anyone that was leaning Republican after dubya stole the election in 2000 and STILL believes in the principles of the Republican party 8 years later, is clearly someone that falls into that religious mind-set that will not use intelligence, common sense or logic. So the Republicans will continue to cater to that base.

    One way they did it was by proclaiming Democrats the “tax and spend” politicians.

    The Democrats, being a nicer group of politicians, did not go on the offense and use the term “borrow and spend” against the Republicans.

    When Democrats want something, they believe it should be paid for as it is created.

    In 1898, for the Spanish American war, America actually PAID for the war by taxing the wealthy, via a tax on their phone bill, as only the wealthy had phones in 1898. Though it took the government over a 100 years to eliminate the tax.

    Wonder what happened to 100 years of taxes toward a war that ended so very long ago?

    I can pretty much guarantee you that if the Republicans had told the American people there would be a tax to pay for the Iraq invasion/war, they would have been against it.

    When Republicans want something, they believe they can borrow the money, since they, as OLD people that have been career politicians and won’t be around to pay even the interest on the debt they have created, much less pay off the principal, don’t really care about what happens after they (the Republicans politician) are gone.

    And, if you tell your followers that by minimizing or eliminating social programs it will make people more responsible, it in reality hides the fact that:

    – More doctors, clinics, other providers, etc fraudulently bill and milk Medicare, Medicaid and other entitlement programs than the few individual citizens that file fraudulent claims

    – More corporations, lobbyists, etc take advantage of government funds (tax dollars) than do individual citizens via entitlement programs, etc

    So while the Republican party has been raiding the cookie jar the past 8 years, they continue to cater to the deaf, dumb and blind, most of which believe in something called “heaven”, “hell”, “god”, “devil”, “bible”, talking snakes, etc.

    Fortunately, we have elected a President that speaks for US, THE people. And fortunately, in district after district, WE, THE people have voted OUT the morons that call themselves Republicans.

    Because WE know that Republican in this day and time, just means “money-grubbing-greedy bastard” that only seeks to enrich himself and his friends.

    And I really see no difference between Adolf Hitler and a group of politicians that embrace stereotypes and feel Anne Coulter, Fox News and Rush Limbaugh are intelligent and that “Barack the magic Negro” is funny.

    And yes, Mr Steele is a token…..much like Sarah Palin was for the election.

    Republicans, always trying to play catch-up. And in the most insincere way….

  21. says

    Agreed, this is a bold move for the repugs, whatever their motivation (though I believe if there were no Obama there would be no Steele).

    I don’t know anything about Steele’s personal politics, but I am familiar with the politics of the repugs. I believe the “leaders” of the repug party will be deferential and respectful to Mr. Steel, as they would be with Obama, face-to-face. But behind closed doors, these two men will always share the same descriptive term amongst repugs and their ‘base’ base. I’ll let y’all guess what that term might be, but I’m betting Sarah Palin and Joe the “Plumber” know the word quite well – as does Dick Cheney.

  22. Bran says

    Gayrepublican: I am not going to call the base of the Republican Party racist. I will say that Republicans have a VERY BIG race problem. Denying it really makes me question exactly what you see when you look at your party. What about the Southern Strategy. Didn’t one of Nixon’s advisors say:

    “The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That’s where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats.”

    And didn’t Ken Melhman former RNC Chair say: “Republican candidates often have prospered by ignoring black voters and even by exploiting racial tensions.”

    This goes to the heart of my problem with the Republican Party. You want to talk about federalism, low taxes, small government, strong defense– OK. Those things transcend race. But, Repubs want to exploit anti-black prejudice to win. That’s not acceptable.

  23. Jimmyboyo says

    Gayrep (i think is Rb in disguise)

    Wake up
    It took 6!!!! 6 votes to nix Dawson and yet he still garnered almost as many votes as Steele

    Dawson “I became a republican when democrats integrated my school.”

    Dawson who had to leave his whites only country club this month because it wouldn’t look good while running for this position

    6 votes!!!!!!!!!!! to nix him and he actualy was ahead in one though not a large enough majority by the rules to claim victory

    The republican party is chock full of racists. It is the haven of racists
    ——————————-

    Anyway; I’m torn over Steele’s victory.

    Of course the majority who voted for him did the whole Paulin has a vagina just like Hillary thing but Steele is Blk like Obama so come on over to our side.

    BUT!!!! His victory singles to me that at least a few have a couple of brain cells in their skulls to realize that voting in Pro-segregation and white only country club Dawson would have sped up their demise. So instead of being the wigs dieing off this year they are the wig party 2.0 dieing off in a couple more years

    Again OF COURSE the majority did the Paulin 2.0 tokinism schtick BUT it gives me hope that a couple over there on the right have a bit of humanity in them

  24. Jimmyboyo says

    I just want to point that out again

    it took

    6 votes to nix a guy who seriously said

    “I became a republican when the democrats integrated my school.”

    and who till this month was a member at a white’s only country club

    6 freaking votes to vote him down and in one of them he was ahead of Steele by 3.

    Grepub, you can’t be so blind as to deny the facts of today

    6 votes to nix an open segreegationist racist as leader

    The repub party is the party of racism. Thankfully though a few…….hopefuly didn’t vote for Steele for tokinism reason but because they at least had the brains to realize that they would have died as a party by tomorrow if he had won

    6 freaking votes though!!!!!!!!!!!!and one where he was ahead of steele by 3

  25. GayRepublican says

    Jimmyboyo,

    Just FYI. I’m not anyone in disguise. I have only been visiting this site since around proposition eight time. When I first commented those few months ago, I used some silly name when I posted. I don’t even remember it exactly, but it was a bunch of random words I believe. Anyway, I never planned on really sticking with the site, but I must admit it’s addictive, so now I’m keeping a name that makes sense for me.

    I had no clue who the fuck Rb was, but I googled towleroad and Rb and found some of his comments. I’m guessing he’s a gay republican?

  26. GayRepublican says

    Oh, and Jimmyboyo, I don’t really care about most of your typos, but more than once you said Paulin instead of Palin. Is this a joke I’m not getting (some funny twist on her name) or just a mistake?

  27. Jimmyboyo says

    Grepub

    Yepp

    ok, ur not RB in disguise

    6 votes to vote down an open admitted segregationist former white only country club member who actually beat Steel in one of the 6 votes by 3 but because it wasn’t a super majority they had to revote.

    Though like I said, I’m somewhat hopeful because a few over in your leadership had enough brain cells to realize that an open segregationist as leader would not be good = the party surviving

  28. Jimmyboyo says

    PS

    I’m the emperor of typos and spelling mistakes around here

    :-)

    I never edit my posts and many who don’t dismiss me as loony tunes crazy seem to tolerate my typos for some reason. :-)

    I apologize for the typos. They are flowing like water tonight since i am typing while also watching the newest episode of BSG at the same time.

  29. GayRepublican says

    Jimmyboyo,

    A lot of people bought that guy’s excuse that he wasn’t aware of the policy, because all races are allowed as guests (as opposed to members). I didn’t, but many did, including some in the RNC. Also, I’d add that the Dems have a U.S. Senator who was a former KKK member, so I think that shows that people can change. I’m not saying that guy did or didn’t change, only that I can see why people might be willing to give others the benefit of the doubt, because people have changed on the issue of race. Also, Steele winning means that the possible racist’s career is essentially over. He is not the future.

    I do not deny that the Republicans have a race problem. Many of us are working hard on this issue.

  30. GayRepublican says

    Also, I’d just like to add that I have participated in many political events (rallies, parties, meetings, etc), and I don’t think I’ve ever heard a negative comment made about someone’s race or orientation. The idea that all Republicans do is sit behind closed doors and badmouth people is not based on the current reality.

    Now, admittedly, part of this is probably because I’m a younger guy and thus the events I attend are more focused on my generation. I am 26, and as such have a different group of peers than some of the older Republicans. Most activist conservatives and Republicans I know are very unprejudiced, whether it be race or orientation or anything else. Part of this is a generational thing. The older people in power simply need to retire (I’d say ‘die’ like everyone else, but that always seemed so bitter to me.)

    The fundie types that everyone is worried about, while solid voters, don’t usually get that involved in the actual party politics, especially at my age level.

    Anyway, just some things I thought I’d share.

  31. washingtonpost says

    Are Republicans stingy but principled while Democrats are generous but racist?

    “I wouldn’t put it quite so starkly,” said Stanford University professor Shanto Iyengar. He would prefer to call Democrats “less principled” rather than bigoted, based on his analysis of data collected in a recent online experiment that he conducted with The Washington Post and washingtonpost.com.

    As reported in this column a few weeks ago, the study found that people were less likely to give extended aid to black Hurricane Katrina victims than to white ones. The race penalty, on average, totaled about $1,000 per black victim.

    As Iyengar and his colleagues subsequently dug deeper into these data, another finding emerged: Republicans consistently gave less aid, and gave over a shorter period of time, to victims regardless of race.

    Democrats and independents were far more generous; on average, they gave Katrina victims on average more than $1,500 a month, compared with $1,200 for Republicans, and for 13 months instead of nine.

    But for Democrats, race mattered — and in a disturbing way. Overall, Democrats were willing to give whites about $1,500 more than they chose to give to a black or other minority. (Even with this race penalty, Democrats still were willing to give more to blacks than those principled Republicans.) “Republicans are likely to be more stringent, both in terms of money and time, Iyengar said. “However, their position is ‘principled’ in the sense that it stems from a strong belief in individualism (as opposed to handouts). Thus their responses to the assistance questions are relatively invariant across the different media conditions. Independents and Democrats, on the other hand, are more likely to be affected by racial cues.”

    To test the effects of race, participants in the study were asked to read a news article about Katrina victims. Some read a story featuring a white person. Some read identical stories — except the victim was black, Asian or Hispanic. Then they were asked how much assistance they think the government should give to help hurricane victims. Approximately 2,300 people participated in the study.

    Iyengar said he’s not surprised by the latest findings: “This pattern of results matches perfectly an earlier study I did on race and crime” with Franklin D. Gilliam Jr. of UCLA. “Republicans supported tough treatment of criminals no matter what they encountered in the news. Others were more elastic in their position, coming to support more harsh measures when the criminal suspect they encountered was non-white.”

  32. says

    The Republican party has no power

    None.

    Zero.

    Zilch.

    Obama can pass any bill he wants to without a single Republican vote.

    NOT ONE!!!!!!

    The only people who pay any atttention to the Republicans are the media whores of the “mianstream” — stuck in perpetuity to the TOTAL FUCKING FANTASY of “bipartisanship” and unwilling to so much as BREATHE the truth — that the Republican party is A DEAD PARROT!!!!

  33. GayRepublican says

    David,

    Take a chill pill. While what you say is true in the House, the Senate has something called the filibuster. The Dems do not have a large enough majority in the Senate to be filibuster-proof. If the Republicans all support a filibuster, then the Dems cannot get their legislation through.

    President Obama realizes this. It’s the reason why he’s being smart and not creating a silly “us vs. them” situation, because the Repubs could essentially stop anything from passing if they were ticked off enough.

  34. John in CA says

    Jimmyboyo,

    Don’t even get me started on Sarah Palin.

    Her selection was simply insulting. And McCain wasn’t terribly subtle about it either. He was practically saying: “the Democrats aren’t the only ones who have vaginas.” It was condescending on so many levels. If you were a Clinton voter and didn’t feel annoyed by the GOP’s botched attempt at courtship, then you probably didn’t bother to read Hillary’s platform. Sarah Palin is the antithesis of everything Hillary stands for. The idea that a fundamentalist hockey mom from Wasilla could replace the valedictorian at Wellesley and associate at the prestigious Treuhaft, Walker and Burnstein law firm is absurd.

  35. GayRepublican says

    Wow, David, such animosity. Granted, the chill pill comment was a little rude, so I apologize for that. Friends?

    I was just pointing out that my party could stop things if the Dems did act like you wanted them to act. There is a reason that Obama is talking about bipartisanship and it isn’t just because it makes him feel and look good. It’s a smart move politically.

    Take care.

  36. Foochy says

    Given Michael Steele’s management track record, I wouldn’t put too much faith in his ability to restore the Republican party any time soon. His ability to attract other blacks and ethnic/racial minorities to the party will rest solely upon appealing to their social/religious conservatism — but in an increasingly poor economy, many minorities will need the programs led by the Democrats (health care, job law enforcement, etc.).

    As for LGBT civil rights, neither party has the morally right game plan — but at least the Democrats have one that starts in a substantive way (at least in word) the very difficult dialogue on discrimination based on sexual orientation. If Steele was as open-minded as Derek W. believes him to be, at best he could decrease the religious right’s power back to their pre-Reagan sideline politicking — highly unlikely given their size and extremism.

    Bottom line, it’s the economy stupid — and Reagan is dead. Lincoln’s philosophy stopped being the guiding philosophy of the party a long time ago. The Republican polemics of communism versus capitalism are poor structures to build the technological world we now live in, and “childish things” such as religious chauvinism and government intrusion into consenting adult personal lives only serves to further ensure that the vision that Republicans offer to the United States and the world is a dangerous, petty vision more in keeping with the misery and income inequality of the Golden Age than the Silicon Age.

  37. hephaestion says

    While Michael Steele was Lt. Gov. of Maryland, the State of Maryland spied on and tapped phone calls of Equality Maryland, the state’s main gay rights organization. They considered Equality Maryland a possible terrorist organization! So once again, Log Cabin is seriously dumb to rejoice Steele’s selection. Steele has never done anything but SCREW gay citizens.

  38. RB says

    Ok, so I wanted to stay clear of this one because I had nothing to add to the thread that had not already been said, but I get named anyway!

    Jimmyboyo, YOU know that I am NEVER here in “disguise”! YOU know that if I have something to say I say with little regard for what others think so why now would I post anything under an anonymous name? Really, are you a little too paranoid?

    Gayrepublican, yes I have posted numerous times that I am a repub and a member of the log cabin. As for the abusive language that you will take if you stay on Towleroad, you will get used to it. Those with little to say other than hateful remarks will quickly make your “ignore” list. However, Jimmyboyo is not one of them. He is very bright and witty. While he sometimes angers me, like this time, he has some really good points. I appreciate his posts and I think over time you will too.

    Having said that, I truly believe that the mission of the dem party is to hold people down in their own ghetto, physical OR mental, because they need the votes! If people were to educate themselves become successful they would not need the bus ride to the polls and free lunch in exchange for a vote. Really, this whole green jobs BS and save the people crap is growing thin!

    We have a city in this country that was 100% under democratic control for over 50 years and it should be utopia given the load of crap you hear about how the dem party is for the people. NEW ORLEANS! And look at that mess! With any luck a new type of young repub, Bobby Jindal, will clean up the state and I wish him well.

    Further, look to the great state of California and their cap-and-trade system to fight global warming. Unfortunately Schwarzenegger drank the koolaid on this one! It is absolutely wrecking the economy beyond that of the country as a whole. California’s unemployment rate hit 9.3% in December, up from 4.9% in December 2006 when the law was signed, there are now 1.5 million Californians out of work, The state has the fourth-highest housing foreclosure rate in the nation, has lost more businesses than any state in recent years, is facing a $40 billion deficit, and with cap and trade firmly in place, the economic situation is only likely to get worse.

    I know that I have thrown a lot of subjects at this thread but they confirm why I am a repub! I may not be able to marry my partner, yet, but we are gainfully employed, own two homes and are able to provide a quality education to our three young children. With the powers of attorney we possess we are able to provide a stable family. While many here think this is selling out to the devil, let me know what you think if California owes you a state refund, you have lost your job, home, car and everything you own. I hope that living on love will be enough to get you through the tough times!

  39. RB says

    Again, Nick, you are certainly more judgemental than most!

    Could you for once attempt to formulate a thought without the term “self-loathing fag” or “hate”? You are showing your lack of depth my friend.

    Take care

  40. says

    Ah, RB. Such a promising “republican of color” Bobby Jindal is!

    Apparently he recently created the Louisiana Commission on Marriage and Family, made up of mostly right-wing anti-gay folks including Tony Perkins of the FRC.

    “Among those who have been appointed by Jindal to serve on the Commission are Tony Perkins (who hails from Baton Rouge), the president of the anti-gay advocacy group known as The Family Research Council . . . Gene Mills, executive director of the far-right Louisiana Family Forum . . . Mike Johnson, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund . . . and numerous members of the clergy. All, Jindal has said, “have significant academic and/or professional expertise” on issues of marriage and family.”
    http://tinyurl.com/95hkxt

    Supports a constitutional amendment banning marriage for us.
    Got a 0% rating from the HRC

    And you wish him well?
    Of course he’s bad on other issues as well, like, say, teaching evolution…

  41. John in CA says

    Yes, there’s absolutely no difference at all between President Obama and Bobby Jindal on LGBT issues.

    The Employment Non-Discrimination Act

    Obama – Supports
    Jindal – Opposes

    Repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell

    Obama – Supports
    Jindal – Opposes

    The Matthew Shepard Act (Hate Crimes)

    Obama – Supports
    Jindal – Opposes

    Joint Adoption for Same-sex Couples

    Obama – Supports
    Jindal – Opposes

    Repealing the Defense of the Marriage Act

    Obama – Supports
    Jindal – Opposes

    Recoginizing Domesitc Partners within the Federal Government

    Obama – Supports
    Jindal – Opposes

    Yup, they’re absolutely the same. In other news, “up” will now be referred to as “down.”

  42. Cj says

    It is amusing that some state the Democrat’s are guilty of holding people back from progressing further. Under both Reagan and Bush, our education system has faltered as two out of three high school students are dropping out, most can not afford college, creating an uneducated and ignorant base to dictate and control through fear mongering and political gain. “Keep them ignorant, poor and angry” has been the implied Republican party tag line.

    When Bush entered into office in 2000, his administration was handed a monetary surplus. Upon leaving in 2009, our country is a global laughing stock. Healthcare is non-existent as the privatization of the healthcare industry dating back to Nixon (read “Broken Government” by ex-Nixon attorney John Dean, it is a very revealing and candid self examination from a “reformed” Republican) has corrupted the system. I have a good friend who was once a researcher and then a project manager for Merck and Johnson and Johnson who moved back to Italy as he was disgusted with the business politics taken by pharmaceutical companies. More often executives of pharmaceutical companies would purposely fund more money into research for treatments versus those projects with solid proposals and science into cures. Many researchers proposed projects into curing Diabetes and AIDS, but nine times out of ten funding was denied and funneled into treatment projects as a liftetime of medications such as insulin, syringes, glucose test strips for a Diabetic patient equates to millions of lost revenue even IF a one time cure costs a fortune. When it comes to privatization, unfortunately the practice becomes more Marxist than the Socialized Democracy (a BIG difference from Socialization that the Republican party loves to throw around to incite fear into the American people as if we stepped back into the mid-20th Century), as money takes precedence over morality and human life (which I find amusing as the republican base’s towline revolves around social conservatism and religious morality). Bush screwed people over when he intentionally placed strict sanctions on stem cell research just before he left office, forcing Obama’s administration to cut through much red tape to advance stem cell research. Further, it is not simply an aborted fetus that produces stem cells, stem cells are actually better when harvested from a successful birth. A practice that was taking shape in the 1990’s was the cultivation of stem cells from a child’s birth for future use if that individual should suffer any medical emergencies. All of that was stifled with the Bush administration (it should be noted for the “Reaganites” that Nancy Reagan became a staunch proponent of stem cell research when Pres. Reagan fell ill with Alzheimer’s).

    Beyond simply that, Bush handed over a dismal economy that many experts now state is on par if not worse than the great depression. After the unnecessary war in Iraq, our global influence is a joke as is our tanked global respect from pissing on the U.N. Bush trashed our constitution by allowing the Patriot Act to eliminate due process, something our founding fathers are certainly rolling in their graves over. Not to mention warrant-less wire tapping, all in the name of “fighting terror” and the “axis of evil”. Guess what, we’re no safer from it, and if anything we LOST as we have become JUST LIKE THE “EVILS” we claim to fight (and making the claim that we haven’t had an incident since 9/11 is ludicrous as we have 7 years of such with Clinton in office).

    Let’s not even touch global climate change. Thankfully Bush missed the midnight deadline to take sanctions off of coal. With the recent environmental disasters from waste spillage from coal plants in Tennessee and California, it is very obvious that “clean coal” is an oxymoron at best. With technologies such as hydrogen fuel cell already running and in place in California from companies such as Honda and thanks to ex-New York Senator Clinton’s efforts the military utilizes hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles in upstate NY from GM. Now with polar bears nearing extinction, Bush has the nerve to take them off the endangered species list before leaving office. I suppose Bush wanted to assist Palin-ites in their hunting.

    I haven’t even mentioned Haliburton moving their headquarters into the White House, or the fact that Exxon/Mobil has made record profits over the past few years (in 4th Quarter 2005 record profits of $10 billion were reported while people paid $5+/gallon at the pumps). This was based on Hedgefund white collar criminals future trading on speculative oil prices, driving the price per gallon up from $69/barrel to $148/barrel in just one day, inflating prices and throwing a ton of commission into hedge fun pockets and the bloated pockets of Exxon/Mobil executives. Let’s not even discuss ex-Exxon CEO Lee Raymond’s $400 million parachute package in 2005. How about the Keating Five savings and loans scandal and McCain’s ties as well as many other republican ties to such greed induced hypocrisy? Or Phil Graham, or Katrina, the failure of “No Child Left Behind”, DOMA, decaying roads and infrastructures, recent corporate monopolies from the 8 years of deregulation and “frat like” Wall St partying and greed that have caused many banks to fail allowing larger banks to eat them up, eliminating competition and driving up future interest rates. It’s human nature that when the parents are away, the kids will play. Guess what, the parents have been away, and the kids playing on Wall St with our money are getting bonuses and more squar footage for their Park Ave co-ops (a friend of mine works for David Kleinberg architecture and design firm in NYC, and would show me the projects they work on. 90% of their client base are hedge fund nouveau riche who throw around money like it’s going out of style. One guy bought two park ave penthouses, combined them for a 10,000+ sq ft apartment for their family of 5, giving their 12 year old a 20×40 sq ft room with her own interior designer).

    With wonderful people such as Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly screaming for their Republican base, it shouldn’t be a mystery where their interests lie. Ann Coulter had the nerve to state recently on Dr. Phil that it’s the Democrat’s who are nasty (of course a few cheered whenever Ann so much as coughed). Coulter’s statement runs very contrary to her actions with published books such as “Godless” claiming that 9/11 widows are “harpies”. Name ONE individual who is Ms. Coulter’s counterpart? Or Bill O’Reilly’s? Name one person who is a Democrat that publishes trash talk disguised as fact and makes millions in public appearances, rhetoric and shame. Any one? Any one? Bueller?

    How about the recent Republican standoff with the proposed bailout. Not ONE Republican voted for it, not one, which is suspect at best. It wreaks of partisanship, and the American people are paying the price for this childish act. Obama has made efforts in crossing party lines by placing GOP and Democrat officials in his administration, Obama has made it clear his intentions are to eliminate party strife, and to bring both parties together in order to put America and its people first. Clearly this has not been the mission statement for the Republican base, and with Steele’s comments claiming you’re either with us or against us, it doesn’t appear to be changing any time soon. I do not care if Steele is a moderate, a moderate Republican is still a Republican.

    For the record, I’m fiscally conservative but socially liberal. I do not believe our government has any right in dictating social policy, and only in cases of protecting the rights of others does our government have the right in establishing law. The Republican party has taken the offense time and time again in dictating social policy, a fact that runs contrary to the foundation of our nation in fleeing religious persecution. It is a little known fact that Benjamin Franklin insisted on “In SCIENCE we Trust”; it was not until the mid-20th Century that our government enforced “God” into American life through printing “In God We Trust” on our national currency, a discreet reminder to all that religion is once again entranced into our government. It seems all that our nation was founded on has slowly been turned on its head, and no one is the wiser.

    The fact remains that our political system is corrupt and antiquated (c’mon, the Electoral Vote is outdated as it is based around a time when the Pony Express was the only means of information transport). Politics and religion should be separate, and yet we have officials such as Gov. Palin using religious rhetoric to instill fear in voters. It’s pathetic and disconcerting. Republicans had control of Congress, Senate and House for the past few years, leaving us ill equipped or defense, broke, uneducated and extremely socially divided through such policies as DOMA. Bush tore apart our constitution and laughed in our faces. To quote Benjamin Franklin: “They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.” Franklin’s profound insight was clearly forgotten when Bush stripped the rights away from the American people in the name of terrorism. Bush created more government control and spending, and yet Republicans still claim to be fiscally conservative? It does not make any sense. If anything, the two party system has created a fraternal system that continues to combat each other rather than assist each other for the greater good. In fact, the “greater good” seems to be a lacking term within the Republican party, it would serve them well to remember that it’s not all about them and that we are all walking on the same planet.

  43. says

    WOWSEE WOWSWOW!

    What a bunch of well informed people came out on this subject! I am impressed!

    I had no idea about Maryland spying on gays and several points GAYREPUBLICAN (please dude, stick around) have been very insightful. RB has his points as well, though he’s a little “Limbaughian” for me.

    CJ! OMG! Godd for you being so well informend and able to write so eloquently!

    Andy, thanks for having this forum available to us! I often learn about something here and then do research and write about it n my own blog. I think o and recommend your blog as THE source for LGBT news and science (you must be a total closet geek!) as well as interesting fluff. Btw, where’s Lance Bass, my least favorite/favorite gay F-List celebrity?!).

    I hope you guys don’t scare off GAYREPUBLICAN (LOL) because I would hate for us all to start thinking alike. That’s what doomed No on 8. No one thought outside the box and everyone was on the same page. In order to have a full informed plan of attack you must listen to outside views.

    Otherwise, you end up with Iraq.

    Keep it up guys!

    And WHERE ARE THE WOMEN?

  44. says

    Until the Rethuglican Party stops idolatry of hate-mongers such as Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter they are NEVER going to evolve into a party that’s progressive with the times. These are people who thrive and profit on hate and misery.

    GAYRPUBLICAN, I can NOT understand how your party allows someone like Limbaugh to make declarations that he is the leader of the Republicans Party; that’s not freedom of the press – that’s manipulation and delusion. He says this in the same breath that he states his hopes for the failure of the sitting president Obama (while waving the flag of patriotism), promoting flavor-of-the-moment Palin (who rallied hate and racism in last year’s RNC election rallies) for RNC leadership…..AND YOU SAY YOUR PARTY IS NOT RACIST NOR EXCLUSIVE?!

    Trust me, logic in NOT a strong point of Rethugs! As someone earlier said in these posts: people who blindly believe in talking snakes, burning bushes, changing water and magic stars (they are only symbolic) do not necessarily have a grasp on reality, do they?

    “Patriotism/prayer – the last refuge of a scoundrel”

    I swear that’s the unofficial mantra of the RNC.

  45. says

    But, JOHN IN CA, Obama doesn’t believe in gay marriage and Jindal doesn’t believe in gay marriage, therefore they are EXACTLY THE SAME PERSON just like Glenn always says! How can you imply that they are two DIFFERENT people based simply on a long list of issues on which they hold opposing views? Have you ever seen them in a room together? Think about it.

    So, RB, you wish Republicans like Jindal well even when they set up “marriage” and “family” commissions that, if they had their way, would take those 3 children away from you and your partner in a heartbeat? I guess since you can afford to cobble together a few 2nd class gay rights for your non-traditional (or, in Republican terms, pretend) family, then the rampant homophobia inside the Republican party doesn’t really matter. People who can’t afford to buy their gay rights just need to stop being so lazy and work harder!

  46. TANK says

    Bobby Jindal is homophobic. There is no way to spin it. He comes from a deeply homophobic, backward, ignorant state (LA), and represents them perfectly as a bigoted scumbag. He also signed into effect legislation which mandates the teaching of intelligent design alongside evolution, making LA, once again, america’s shame.

  47. GayRepublican says

    Jindal is an excellent politician, and he may be a good governor in the sense of making sure the various departments run well, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt there.

    That having been said, sorry Rb, but I do not want to see Jindal as our candidate. Tank is right in that he’s probably a perfect match for a majority of the voters in Louisiana, but we don’t need people like him on the national stage.

    Don’t get me wrong. I too want us to get away from the collectivist RINOs who are in a race with the Democrats to fund their own special projects. And obviously if we agreed with everyone here on all the complaints about Republicans we would be Democrats, so I’m not saying we should entirely change our identity just to suit people who for the most part would not vote Republican in a million years. But there are solid choices other than Jindal that can help us accomplish the goals we want without sacrificing our commitment to gay rights.

  48. TANK says

    And do the log cabin republicans ever tire of excusing and defending the party like one would an illiterate racist uncle who casually uses racial epithets in public? The relationship isn’t unlike Huck Finn and his father.

    I’m obviously being sarcastic, but it’s not completely false. In light of the party crumbling as moderate republicans (the silent majority) and SOMEWHAT educated folks like david brooks, george will, and peggy noonan (chastising the party for what it’s allowed itself to become while being responsible for it as its architects), who are disgusted with the palinite nascar idiots that are increasingly coming to define the party– are defecting to third parties and the democratic party. These hopelessly clumsy and out of touch token moves to mitzvah chip’s and other’s racism and give the party a facelift, are further driving people away. Those who defect know the party’s on life support, and is evolving into a fringe ultra nationalist embarrassment.

    Anyway, “it’s a good thing”, because unless the democrats start to kick it into high gear, we’ve got bargaining power as the two party system is about to go through an extreme makeover, and positions those who previously had no choice to have a much larger role in a party’s agenda. The republican party is on a downward spiral that jesus himself couldn’t right.

  49. RB says

    “And do the log cabin republicans ever tire of excusing and defending the party like one would an illiterate racist uncle who casually uses racial epithets in public”

    Tank, do the stonewall dems ever tire of excusing and defending the dem party for not being able to provide on their promise of gay rights? Do they ever get tired of defending Obama’s statement that marriage is between a man and a woman? Do they?

    Come on, NEITHER the dems nor the repubs are ready to step up and do the right thing! I have said this many times before, when a dem proves to me to be worthy of my vote I cross party lines and vote for them. How many of those here can say the same thing of a republican? VERY FEW!

    I am open to the beliefs of anyone. I just for once want someone to tell me why they are a dem without saying that they are better for us and that I am self loathing for being a repub! For the love of all things good in this world, have an opinion and stand by it. Do not be a one issue voter!

    CJ, great speech, just like Obama in 2004. I would really like to fact check your “speech”.

    Gayrepublican, you are correct. We do have many more repubs that are NOT right wing that understand fiscal responsibility without being anti-gay. Fewer in number but growing. Time is on our side as the youth of America both dem and repub don’t give a rat’s ass about being gay!

    YES, the republican party has their right wing evangelicals but, they are not there alone. Many of us are fighting to change those evils and I for one would give anything for the right wing stranglehold of the repub party to break loose. But how do you suppose we do that, by walking away from 90% of what we believe and give the party to them? HELL NO! I intend to fight every step of the way. Just remember, I would go hunting with Chenney any day before I would go for a car ride with Ted Kennedy!

    I can define in real terms my beliefs, what I stand for and what is important for me. I understand that neither party is ready to step up but many here do not. I do not like Rush or Coulter and I NEVER voted for W, but I will not compromise my beliefs to vote for a candidate that believes in late term abortions and partial birth, my daughter’s right to an abortion at 13 without my knowledge, needle exchange programs and the socialization of the US, just to get the maybe promise that I can have a civil partnership all because that candidate ONLY believes that marriage is between one man and one woman under God! I am sorry, did that sound a lot like Obama?

    Why is it that I can recognize the difference between being pandered to and being straight up told? I can fight the enemy I know! I cannot stand the fact that so many felt the skies would part, angels would sing and all would be right with the world when Obama took the office of the president. He is no more and no less than the mirror image of Rush as NEITHER of them believe that we should have gay marriage.

  50. Cj says

    Sadly RB, it speaks more that your only response is sarcastic diatribe in a veiled attempt to cast doubt on facts. Of which portion are you concerned? Our economy? Unfortunately, I wish I could state you are right, but our economy is in dire need of help (and hope). Our Education system? “No Child Left Behind” has been deemed a failure from bot sides of our political system. Maybe it’s Iraq? Hmmm, $10 billion a month spent on a war that has increased anti-American sentiment and the volume of anti-terrorists from the unsanctioned invasion of a sovereign nation. How about The Patriot Act, the denial of due process, and the Bush Administrations (and the House and Senate’s) disrespect of our constitution by pandering to their constituents through fear mongering? Hmmmm, can’t be that… no, couldn’t. Perhaps it’s the significant increase in the gap between the upper and middle class systems. Since Reagan was in office, there has been a significant increase in the percentage of those considered “upper class” while the average yearly income for the polled middle class households has sunk further each year, with a moderate reversal in households from 1995-2000.

    Yet, after all that has been released regarding the economy, the war in Iraq, our faltering education system, global climate change, the burgeoning corporate greed and deregulation; the only comment you make is party line rhetorical talking points intended on discrediting others based on misinformation and slander. The GOP is guilty of such instances with the recent unanimous vote against the proposed stimulus package, a package developed by both Democrats and Republican as a measure to dig the American and Global economic system out of the quagmire left from eight years of Republican politics.

    The fact remains, whether one wishes to accept it or not, bipartisan politics are destroying us, and the comments left by many are just an example of the play school tactics and ego’s governing this nation. Simply put, the Ann Coulter’s and Bill O’Reilly’s have simply created a sense of anger and hatred through pandering to their base in a desire to “cash in” on the divisive nature propagated by our own politicians. Until people begin voting with their minds and hearts, until people refuse to pigeonhole each other and themselves based on defined political stereotypes and perceived “enemies” (as discussed on a pervious thread, it would behoove a few to read the Stanford Prison experiment and how psychology of roles, power and greed are corrupting forces), until we can set aside our differences and unite, then misguided anger and beliefs will continue to blacken and blind our hearts.

    Pres. Obama is making a concerted effort in unifying the divided Washington left by the previous administration through appointing experts based on their expertise and knowledge, not based on partisan politics. Pres. Obama is making a genuine effort in working for the communities who voted him into office. What President, Republican or Democrat, in the past few decades may claim the same? With all the stated facts, it is bewildering and discouraging that some people are inclined to faithfully defend a maligned party, This simply demonstrates a lack of proper political and moral objectification in lieu of defending personal stances in attempt to save face. In short, we are still children living life on the play ground, kicking dirt in each others faces while waiting for the teacher to look away.

  51. TANK says

    I didn’t follow most of that clucking, but are you seriously suggesting that it’s a wash when you compare the republican party’s stance on lgbt issues and the democratic party’s? Admittedly, the democratic party has a long way to go…but not nearly as long a way as the republican party elite.

  52. says

    Amazing, isn’t it, TANK? Gay Republicans need to pretend that there are no differences between the parties on gay rights issues so that they can justify voting Republican on issues that matter more to them. I wish they’d simply admit that the Republican party is, by and large, horrendous on all things gay, yet that doesn’t matter enough for them to change their vote. I’d respect that more than this continuing Log Cabin charade that it’s a wash.

    I’m not sure, RB, why you think those of us who vote Democratic are one issue voters? Do you really think we’re closet Republicans? Yes, one reason I vote Democratic is that they are much better on gay rights than Republicans in my home state and nationally, but I also hate pretty much everything else Bush and his Republican party have done to this country (Iraq, environment, reproductive rights, human rights etc etc etc), so there’s no contradiction in being a gay Democrat whereas to be a gay Republican one pretty much has to put aside the whole pesky gay thing.

  53. RB says

    W was one of the worst presidents we have had in recent times and I will freely admit that. I never voted for him and I never supported him.

    “Since Reagan was in office, there has been a significant increase in the percentage of those considered upper class”. CJ, I ask this question; when did it become a bad thing in America to become successful, gain wealth and live the American dream? When did we decide that all things associated with the “American dream” were bad? Look, the very fact that more people in America became “upper class” since Reagan just proved that his policies worked! I blieve that the glass is half full and yet you only see half empty. How many of those that made it to the “upper class” were self made?

    And in regards to the so called poor and middle class, as long as EVERY AMERICAN HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE THEMSELVES SUCCESSFUL I AM OK WITH THAT. And yes, we ALL have the same opportunities in this country to get an education. It may not be easy, but the Americans have opportunities to live the dream like no other country on earth period. We have simply become a lazy, video game playing, big screen tv watching society where personal responsibility has left our vocabulary. Someone “owes” us something. I find that revolting and wrong.

    Look, I am not wrong here. The sheer number of immigrants that risk their lives to come here, speak no english and yet open businesses and buy homes and send their kids to college proves that we ALL have the same opportunity. They are willing to do things that many here have decided is beneath them! Sad and pathetic! Actually, we native born english speaking folk have the advantage we just will not get up and take our asses to work!

    Why do you think that Oprah built her school in S. Africa? She said that when she went around America and asked kids what they wanted they said nintendos. When she went to Africa and asked the same thing they said an education! What is wrong with our society? Again, WHEN DID IT BECOME WRONG TO LIVE THE AMERICAN DREAM AND BECOME SUCCESSFUL IN THE US?!

    And before anyone starts throwing daggers my way, again, I know exactly what it is like to grow up poor in the rural South. My family has many times had real income below the poverty level. I know what it is like to be a child and have the family lose a home and file bankruptcy. We were never hungry, we had clothes and we did not know any better but there wasn’t a lot of money. However, my mother always told me that I could be anything that I wanted to be! I worked full time and remained a full time student in college. I paid for my education myself. It was a struggle, but I knew that there had to be a better way of life! I knew that I was not going to be poor for the rest of my life and I worked hard. So spare me the poor little guy and the oh so bad “upper class” BS! We all have the same opportunity to do better with our lives today than yesterday. If that were not true so many people from around the world wouldn’t be risking their lives to get here!

  54. TANK says

    The fact that there are more upper class people proved that his policies worked? The flip side is that there are less middle class people and more people living below the poverty line. Further, the middle class is shrinking at an ever increasing rate, and the vast vast vast majority of people exiting aren’t becoming upper class…

    The rest is just boot straps and pullin’, horatio alger propaganda. No, not all of us have the same opportunities…especially TODAY. Why don’t you try reading a paper about things like the economy…that isn’t the usa today. I know, it’s awful colorful and perty. Distractin’.

  55. RB says

    Tank, how old are you? And no, I do not read newspapers. They are left wing media outlets that perpetuate the loss of the American dream to people like you! People that fail to see opportunity. People that refuse to accept that we live in the greatest country on earth!

    Sad and pathetic, but yes, our new USA today. You are the new stereotype.

    Take care

  56. Cj says

    RB, the statistics I reference state the upper class did not “grow” in size, they remained 1-2%, but grew in wealth. It is crucial to understand the basics in economics. Wealth does not accumulate for everyone, it merely changes hands. In this instance, statistically speaking, the wealthy have become wealthi-er, while the lower and middle classes have become less able in securing stable incomes for their families.

    This fact is pertinent in any claims that America is still an equal opportunity country for everyone. Such a statement is extremely broad and erroneous. Such a statement neglects to include racism, homophobia, sexism, classism. America is not an equal opportunity employer. This fact has been proven time and time again. Women are paid significantly less than men; African-American women even less. One individuals labor may not be valued as much as their counterpart. Is this an excuse to not work hard? Certainly not. Yet it is erroneous to state that the American Dream is alive and well, far from it. There has been an amendment to the American Dream, and exceptions most certainly apply.

    I’m thrilled you paid for your education yourself, that is very noble of you. For those who can not, they must resort to loans, and in many instances banks refuse to give “good faith” loans to many, many individuals who may not meet standard or even unrealistic requirements. Count yourself very fortunate that you even had the chance in working to afford your education. Unfortunately, if you truly had worked hard for your education than you would think before making statements such as “spare me the lower class..BS”. As you claim to come from a lower income household, and certainly you agree that you are an example of a small town boy who made his way, you are showing ignorance in making statements that such people are lower class because they refuse to do work that immigrants are too eager to perform. Did you ever consider that some immigrants may be illegally employed in below minimum wage jobs that might otherwise go to American citizens at legal wage? Did you ever consider that social politics may play a role employment opportunities? Did you ever consider that in a depression and faltering economy with record unemployment that finding work would be arduous at best? Did you ever consider that a family of four who lost their jobs and home may have to move into a shelter, and attend job interviews in borrowed clothes, only to be turned away by someone who was able to afford an education and clothes entitling them to that same job?

    RB, making broad generalizations implying that work is there for anyone willing to do such work, but they refuse to do it as it is “beneath them”, only demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part. Passing judgment on others, especially when you claim to come from the same demographic, is baffling. I strongly believe in walking a mile in someone else’s shoes before passing any judgment, and even in such instances passing judgment on anyone is a very slippery slope.

    Lastly, I realize this issue may be frustrating and upsetting to you, but utilizing exclamation points, caps lock and personal attacks benefits your argument(s) very little. Resorting to shouting and insulting others, even online, is normally a resort taken by those who have nothing better to state. It is easy to disagree, it is much more difficult in respectfully disagreeing.

  57. Foochy says

    Hear, hear! CJ, your points are extremely well argued and on point — and in the best traditions of civic discourse which have been part and parcel of our nation since its founding.

  58. CJ says

    “Tank, how old are you? And no, I do not read newspapers. They are left wing media outlets that perpetuate the loss of the American dream to people like you! People that fail to see opportunity. People that refuse to accept that we live in the greatest country on earth!”

    1) Is it necessary (or even relevant) what this individuals age may be?

    2) As someone who grew up in the U.K., has lived in Spain and in many area’s of America, while the U.S. may offer many great opportunities to its citizens, it is not correct to state we are the greatest country on earth. Many Brazilians, Spaniards, Canadians, Norwegians; many would respectfully (and rightfully) disagree with you.

    History demonstrates that the first stage in any downfall of a country/empire is arrogance. Arrogance leads to a false sense of security, purposeless existence, reversal of social and economic progress resulting from such beliefs of invincibility, and lastly the fail of its golden age.

    Lastly, claiming the media is “left” leaning is wrong. Rupert Murdoch, owner of “News Corp”, the multimedia Fox organization who owns Fox News, shares of CNN (as a result of ex-CEO Turner’s buyout), MySpace, The Wall St Journal, Washington Post, part owner of “Crown Publishing Group”, publishers of Ann Coulter books, etc. CEO Rupert Murdoch is married to Wendi Deng, a Chinese citizen who is a member of the communist party in China. Recently many are questioning the money Murdoch and News Corp. have and continue to funnel in China. Ironic that Murdoch’s Fox News and News Corp, and personal financial and socio-political support of the conservative right base, are funding communist efforts in China through his third wife Wendi Deng (even more interesting that Murdoch i a staunch defender of “marriage” when he is on his third wife, with his first two marriages ending in acrimonious divorce due to adultery). I simply googled Wendi Deng and was astonished to find more articles on this subject from many sources, credited news sources and blogs alike, such as the following:

    “What a pity that The Monthly, which published the Wendy Deng profile by Eric Ellis last month, has decided not to publish it free online this month. Maybe that was part of the contract: Ellis seems keen to keep selling it around the world.

    A Chinese translation of Ellis’ story was published in New Century Weekly last month (cover above), but the UK Guardian pulled out. Here’s Crikey’s coverage of events from ericellis.com:

    The article, written by Eric Ellis who works as Fortune magazine’s South East Asia correspondent, was also supposed to appear in The Guardian a week ago, but was spiked for unknown reasons, reports China-based expat-run media source Danwei. Ellis confirmed this with Crikey. The Guardian — which made one of 20-odd international offers Ellis received to publish the piece, from publishers in Argentina, China, Italy, Switzerland, HK and the UK, among others — “praised” the work, he says, photosourced, edited and legalled it, only then deciding not to publish. Their reasoning in a nutshell: on reflection, a businessperson’s spouse is not fair game (Wendi is a director of News’s MySpace operation in China). Ellis is unsure what caused the change of heart. It’s ironic, he says, that the Western press, “which doesn’t mind criticising the state-controlled media in China — admittedly with justification” has been hesitant about the piece, while the Chinese “had no qualms about publishing it, and were very professional and thorough”. Perhaps a little schadenfreude at Rupert’s expense is enough to keep the censors at bay. As Ellis notes, the Chinese are willing and keen to publish such a story as it sends “a message about what they think of News Corp.” And that is, not much, as Bruce Dover is set to explore in an upcoming book, Rupert Murdoch’s Adventures in China.

    Finally, here’s an interesting little snippet from a You Tube video called Serenity Firefly Confrontation:

    ‘WHY was this great TV series [Firefly] cancelled by Fox before its first episode??? Rupert Murdoch owns Fox, Myspace and TV Guide Channel. Why did TV Guide Channel ban my cable access TV show? Sir Rupert Murdoch, Australian Knight of the British Empire, is married to Wendi Deng, a card-carrying Communist Party citizen of Communist China. They live in Bejing, the capital of Communist China. Since the Communist Manifesto bans ownership of private property, the Communist Party of China now owns Fox News. Joss predicting the evil Alliance merger of China & USA subverts the Commie’s stealth takeover. Train Job showed US and ChiCom flags merged into one. Hence, Firefly cancelled & banned before its first episode.’ ”

    I recommend you read “Rupert’s Adventures in China”, a detailed oriented account of Murdoch’s ventures with failed “Star TV” in China, and Murdochs courtship of the Chinese government. Here’s a snippet:

    “No count of Murdoch kowtows would be complete without acknowledgement of Murdoch’s 1998 spiking of a News Corp. book by the last British governor of Hong Kong, Chris Patten, to please the Chinese leadership. The BBC covers that affair here, and Dover adds confirming color. Murdoch never gave direct orders to his media executives to go easy or hard on anybody or anything to benefit the boss, because he didn’t have to. What was expected was ‘a sort of ‘anticipatory compliance,’ ” Dover writes. “One didn’t need to be instructed about what to do, one simply knew what was in one’s long-term interests.’

    After Murdoch killed Patten’s book, continues Dover, “Our Beijing minders were impressed and the Patten incident marked a distinct warming in the relationship” with the Propaganda Department that watched over News Corp. His rehabilitation complete, the meeting with President Jiang finally happened.”

    Comfortable before the Chinese on his knees, Murdoch couldn’t stop appeasing. In 1999, he slagged the Dalai Lama, saying, ‘I have heard cynics who say he’s a very political old monk shuffling around in Gucci shoes,’ and, ‘Maybe I’m falling for [Chinese] propaganda, … but [Tibet] was an authoritarian, medieval society without any basic services.’ ”

    It would enlighten you quite a bit to understand where the “news” actually comes from, and how executives writing journalists’ paychecks dictate how, when and who delivers their version of the news. Understanding that more than 60% of printed and cable news (and now online sources as well as social networking site MySpace) in the states is owned and operated by Rupert Murdoch, and as such much of it is severely catering towards the conservative base.

    RB, as I have studied anthropology and social organizational psychology, read up on sociologists and urban theorists such as James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling (whose article “Broken Windows” revolves around the premise that:

    “A successful strategy for preventing vandalism, say the book’s authors, is to fix the problems when they are small. Repair the broken windows within a short time, say, a day or a week, and the tendency is that vandals are much less likely to break more windows or do further damage. Clean up the sidewalk every day, and the tendency is for litter not to accumulate (or for the rate of littering to be much less). Problems do not escalate and thus respectable residents do not flee a neighborhood.”

    Simply put, environment and living conditions do affect the psychology of humanity. Further petty crime and low-level anti-social behavior will be deterred, and major crime may, as a result, be prevented.),

    and Jane Jacobs to name a few. American topography and socialism play a major role in how economics and social policy work together with politics in keeping certain classes separate and not equal.

    Examine New York City, a place Jane Jacobs grew up in and described the sidewalks as the heartbeat of the community’s it upholds. New York City allowed for many diverse demographics to pass by one another on sidewalks on a daily basis, and as such allowed for different cultures to intermix and have the opportunity to relate to one another, breaking down ignorance and its resulting fear.

    The following is the intro to a paper/study I did while a student at Columbia:

    “The North American urban landscape has transformed dramatically from the late 19th century to present day, evolving both sociologically and topographically. From mid-nineteenth century New York City to present day Los Angeles, the American landscape slowly evolved from densely populated structured epicenters into isolated and segregated suburban communities. The stock market crash of 1929 and the resulting Great Depression of North America worsened city conditions by increasing unemployment, poverty, crime and pollution. As city living deteriorated during the 1930’s, visionaries such as Frank Lloyd Wright proposed re-inhabiting the rural landscape in his 1935 model Broadacre City: A New Community Plan. North American urban planners and city dwellers initially rejected Frank Lloyd Wrights model of isolated independent rural homestead’s connected via roads and automobiles, yet Wright proved prophetic as suburban regions gradually dominated the American landscape. In 1947 William Levitt developed Levittown, N.Y., America’s first mass-produced post World War II suburban community. North American’s became enchanted with suburbia’s open spaces, fresh air and private dwellings as a welcomed alternative to the crowded tenements, pollution and noisy streets of post-industrial urbanism. More isolated homogeneous communities, with little interaction between cultures, replaced many diverse, heterogeneous urban communities that interacted in harmonious fluidity. In the mid-twentieth century, the American commercialized prospect of home ownership on private land in vast neighborhoods with less crime, pollution and improved educational systems became the American Dream. As suburban enclaves progressively dominated the American landscape, many American’s abandoned culturally diverse urban neighborhoods and populated sidewalks for isolated homogeneous suburban communities and winding roads. The populated sidewalks and busy streets of diverse city neighborhoods that encouraged intercultural relations were replaced with private homogeneous communities with little interaction outside the work and home environment. Ultimately suburbia replaced the accessible public spaces and parks in urban epicenters that encouraged multicultural social interaction with isolated shopping malls, schools and work places. This lack in diversity and increased isolation contributed to a growing xenophobic mindset within some suburban communities, often instilling fear of differing races and cultures. Suburbia’s homogeneity, isolation, lack of public spaces and intercultural socialization frequently fostered ignorance and trepidation of contrasting cultures and races, often resulting in acts of violence from alienated and suppressed suburban denizens.”

    It is crucial to understand and relate to others, especially those of whom you may not normally associate with and thus understand. The Republican party, of which my father is a member of, has adopted an unspoken belief of “exclusivity” rather than “inclusivity”, and as such propagates the same ignorance and fear underlying much of American suburban life. Isolationism begets ignorance, which begets fear and intolerance. Further, politics as usual is deeply ensconced in corporate pandering and greed. America has seen it with Cheney, Rove, Bush, Rice and their abuses of power that resulted in cash surpluses for many of their own personal finances with such companies as Haliburton and Exxon/Mobil (not to mention ATT’s role in warrant-less wiretapping and compensations as a result of said role), and along with deregulation resulted in corporate monetary surpluses and golden parachutes funded by the very shallow pockets of the struggling American’s who elect the very officials into office in order to protect us from the evils it claims run contrary to American democracy, while at the same instance performing the very tasks it sets out to fight.

    It is an ignorant individual who blindly obeys without questioning. Questioning results in understanding, understanding results in independence, and true independence transcends into harmony and understanding.

  59. TANK says

    I’m an old man, RB. 28. But if I’m to follow your reasoning, here, you’re relying on some sort of ageism by suggesting that I’m young and naive for reading newspapers… I love newspapers…they print the news. You do realize we’ve a new president, yes? Obama is his name.

    I find it amusing that this RB person’s poorly constructed diatribes are given so much thoughtful response. CJ–in particular– you’re clearly much smarter than RB, and I must admit, I appreciate your posts. But you do also realize that you’re not talking to RB, but at him, yes?

    Quite involved. Thank you for posting, CJ. Hats off.

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  61. rudy says

    It is pathetic and tiresome that one without ability or inclination to think resorts to ad personam attacks. Despite baseless allegations of “self-loathing,” RB does not sink to your level. He and I diagree often–particularly about needle exhcange programs–but he is never disagreeable. He is always willing to listen but few of you return that basic civil courtesey.

    Most of you would rather characature his beliefs than listen and perhaps learn something. RB does more for the progress of human rights for gays (not “gay rights”) by simply living his life and raising his children in an honorable manner every day than those whose strident and bellicose manner merely causes others in the political process to shut down.

    If you prefer to continue to breath your own fumes of self-satisfaction, you will not advance your own causes; you have already convinced yourself. It is others in the body politic that must be persuaded. Your broadsides are unavailing.

  62. mike says

    RB, it’s never been a sin to be successful and rich in America. The sin is who gets rich and how they do it. If it’s a level playing field, that’s one thing. But, America has never been about a level playing field. It has always been about race and class and anyone who denies that takes some pretty damned good drugs. How wonderful you never voted for Bush (which I doubt, but these days it gives an LCR like yourself some cover–sort of like, “well, I didn’t vote for him!” As for the “cap-and-trade” gripe, c’mon, boyfriend! Do you REALLY think that that has caused the California economy to tank? GET REAL! You know, I don’t mind that LCR’s suck up to their Republican masters. I don’t mind that their own self-loathing puts them in their straight-jacket hell of denial about just what makes America a great country and how to fix the mess this country has fallen in since Reagan was elected in 1980. What I do mind is the insults to one’s intelligence when an LCR starts trying to defend their noxious, odious and idiotic “conservativism”. Yeah, yeah. I’m one who always trashes the LCR’s here. See, I know how much you boys get your dicks hard over tax cuts, strong national defense, individual achievements, etc. But, let’s see…. in the last eight years, over 1 million Iraqis–men, women and children–have been slaughtered since the U.S. invaded that godforsaken country. Billions of dollars have been squandered–and that’s just the money that no-bid American contractors (all Republicans and all neo-cons) cheated the U.S. government out of as they fed at the piggie-trough. The housing market has tanked, the Madoff Ponzie scheme came crashing down, the banking system is near collapse…. well, 8 years of Republican and neo-con rule has nearly trashed America. Of course, some LCR twit will say “I didn’t vote for Bush. I never liked him. He was a TRUE conservative.” Well, here’s a bulletin for the LCR crowd. Bush was your baby all the way and if I remember correctly, RB, you’ve defended him on several occasions in the past. My advice to RB is go to one of those evangelical conversion centers and see if they can’t get you hot for Ann Coulter. The two of you would be a match made in heaven: you could tell Ann about those tax cuts and strong national defense you favor and she can tell about all those abortions she’s never had.

  63. mike says

    RB, it’s never been a sin to be successful and rich in America. The sin is who gets rich and how they do it.

    If it’s a level playing field, that’s one thing. But, America has never been about a level playing field. It has always been about race and class and anyone who denies that takes some pretty damned good drugs. How wonderful you never voted for Bush (which I doubt, but these days it gives an LCR like yourself some cover–sort of like, “well, I didn’t vote for him!”

    As for the “cap-and-trade” gripe, c’mon, boyfriend! Do you REALLY think that that has caused the California economy to tank? GET REAL!

    You know, I don’t mind that LCR’s suck up to their Republican masters and get invited to all those fabulous white (people only) parties.

    I don’t mind that their own self-loathing puts them in their straight-jacket hell of denial about just what makes America a great country and how to fix the mess this country has fallen in since Reagan was elected in 1980.

    What I do mind is the insults to one’s intelligence when an LCR starts trying to defend their noxious, odious and idiotic “conservativism”.

    Yeah, yeah. I’m one who always trashes the LCR’s here. See, I know how much you boys get your dicks hard over tax cuts, strong national defense, individual achievements, etc.

    But, let’s see…. in the last eight years, over 1 million Iraqis–men, women and children–have been slaughtered since the U.S. invaded that godforsaken country. Billions of dollars have been squandered–and that’s just the money that no-bid American contractors (all Republicans and all neo-cons) cheated the U.S. government out of as they fed at the piggie-trough.

    The housing market has tanked, the Madoff Ponzie scheme came crashing down, the banking system is near collapse…. well, 8 years of Republican and neo-con rule has nearly trashed America. Of course, some LCR twit will say “I didn’t vote for Bush. I never liked him. He wasn’t a TRUE conservative.”

    Well, here’s a bulletin for the LCR crowd. Bush was your baby all the way and if I remember correctly, RB, you’ve defended him on several occasions in the past. My advice to RB is go to one of those evangelical conversion centers and see if they can’t get you hot for Ann Coulter. The two of you would be a match made in heaven: you could tell Ann about those tax cuts and strong national defense you favor and she can tell about all those abortions she’s never had.

  64. mike says

    RB, it’s never been a sin to be successful and rich in America. The sin is who gets rich and how they do it.

    If it’s a level playing field, that’s one thing. But, America has never been about a level playing field. It has always been about race and class and anyone who denies that takes some pretty damned good drugs. How wonderful you never voted for Bush (which I doubt, but these days it gives an LCR like yourself some cover–sort of like, “well, I didn’t vote for him!”

    As for the “cap-and-trade” gripe, c’mon, boyfriend! Do you REALLY think that that has caused the California economy to tank? GET REAL!

    You know, I don’t mind that LCR’s suck up to their Republican masters and get invited to all those fabulous white (people only) parties.

    I don’t mind that their own self-loathing puts them in their straight-jacket hell of denial about just what makes America a great country and how to fix the mess this country has fallen in since Reagan was elected in 1980.

    What I do mind is the insults to one’s intelligence when an LCR starts trying to defend their noxious, odious and idiotic “conservativism”.

    Yeah, yeah. I’m one who always trashes the LCR’s here. See, I know how much you boys get your dicks hard over tax cuts, strong national defense, individual achievements, etc.

    But, let’s see…. in the last eight years, over 1 million Iraqis–men, women and children–have been slaughtered since the U.S. invaded that godforsaken country. Billions of dollars have been squandered–and that’s just the money that no-bid American contractors (all Republicans and all neo-cons) cheated the U.S. government out of as they fed at the piggie-trough.

    The housing market has tanked, the Madoff Ponzie scheme came crashing down, the banking system is near collapse…. well, 8 years of Republican and neo-con rule has nearly trashed America. Of course, some LCR twit will say “I didn’t vote for Bush. I never liked him. He wasn’t a TRUE conservative.”

    Well, here’s a bulletin for the LCR crowd. Bush was your baby all the way and if I remember correctly, RB, you’ve defended him on several occasions in the past. My advice to RB is go to one of those evangelical conversion centers and see if they can’t get you hot for Ann Coulter. The two of you would be a match made in heaven: you could tell Ann about those tax cuts and strong national defense you favor and she can tell about all those abortions she’s never had.

  65. Glenda says

    Is it me or are there other people who feel that our great country is becoming extinct. I believe in God (Jesus), and what our forefather fought for which is the establishment of the Constitution for “WE THE PEOPLE.” I am concern that our young people do not understand what is happening . Our freedom is a stake. When people depend on the government for work, housing, health care. You became ensnare within a trap.

    Let look at welfare here we see three and four generation of wards of the government . With no hope to do better and far less hope for the little ones coming up. I am not against of helping individuals who need help, especially working single mothers, widows, widowers, orphans and when the family has been struck with a life threatening illness.

    I am concern that we have raised up for three and four generation with the mind-set you owe it to me. I am not rich nor am I poor. My husband has lost his job and has had a hard time finding work. I had a life threatening illness. While take chemotherapy I worked because we still had to pay our mortgage. This is the type of work edicts is what makes our country great. The government enslaves and bind the people hands we will be at their mercies. Power culprits individual and we can see this going on today in Congress.
    Both parties are as bad as the other.

    We have put money into the school systems and the more we put in the more we have dropping out . It is time that mothers, fathers, educators, comminutes also include the children listen to them and to their dilemma. Come together and find out why and what is not working and change it. We can not buy our way out of this. We must give our time and effort to resolve this crisis. The government has made thing worst not better.
    I could go on, however it is futile. We are waiting for you to start with ideal to take back this country and go back to the Original Intent of the Constitution, the Courts, and Religion.
    If you start with investgation of ACRON and all the orther companies that are associated with them and find out way billions of dollars are gone into one place for all of these companies.
    Expose favoritism that is shown by each Congessman. Expose Braney Frank for what he has done and the preferential treatment he has received by selling the rest of American way of live away with out a thought.
    If you do not address these issues the American People will drop both party and go independence. This is the time to step up and not back out.
    Glenda

  66. says

    You may argue all you like that we outsiders don’t understand or are painting you all with the same brush, but it’s hard to believe the GOP has much left in the tank. Rebrand or be replaced. I can pretty much guarantee you that if the Republicans had told the American people there would be a tax to pay for the Iraq invasion/war, they would have been against it.

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