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Watch: Chris Crocker on Masculine Gays vs. Feminine Gays

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Chris "Leave Britney Alone" Crocker talks about discrimination within the gay community by masculine gays against feminine gays.

"Listen!" (warning: language), AFTER THE JUMP...

(via ed kennedy)

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  1. is it ok if i don't sit next the loud drama queens? i'm out, but don't like to be the center of attention and i don't want to be obliged to "have the back" of some abrasive fem with a chip on his shoulder. He is right about the need for tolerance, but the dumb guy face he puts on and the dude voice he uses talking about masc guys is the very kind of discrimination he is posing to be against.

    Posted by: Rikard | May 5, 2011 10:22:32 AM


  2. ok most of the masculine men (ie, fred) who are attacking him are missing the point. he's clearly talking about masculine gays who self identify as "straight acting" and then go around mocking feminine gays. if you consider yourself masculine, but don't do either of those things, he's obviously not talking about you. and i totally agree with what he's saying. if you have an issue with feminine guys, you have an issue with yourself, just like straight guys having issues with gay men have their own issues. i've gone on dates with plenty of guys who will inevitability bring up the whole "why do they act so feminine" thing when they're not butch themselves. if these so called masculine gays were really smart (and comfortable with themselves) they'd surround themselves with flamboyant friends, then they'd really look butch.

    Posted by: Rob | May 5, 2011 10:31:23 AM


  3. Chris Crocker has some growing up to do, sure, and a little media training might suit him well - but I like where he is going and I think his point of view is useful.

    Posted by: Joshua Ackley | May 5, 2011 10:32:54 AM


  4. Interesting discussion. In my experience, it's always seemed really unfortunate that many traditionally oppressed peoples feel the need to turn around and oppress others. Maybe that's not in any greater numbers than non-oppressed peoples like to oppress, but it just comes off so nasty and unnatural to me when gays or blacks or Jews turn around and hate on others.

    I'm thinking, ya know, [many] blacks and gays, [many] Israelis and Palestinians. We'd like to think that people who've been judged and down-trod upon would be especially careful not to do that same thing to others. But it seems no one group of people are immune to the nastier aspects of human nature.

    Perhaps there's nothing more than that going on with this "rift" in the gay community. Just plain bad behavior, not explained by not wanting to be outed, or resenting the "face of the gay community" - but just by some people being hateful and judgmental and messed up.

    Posted by: Zlick | May 5, 2011 10:35:43 AM


  5. Remember, when anyone says "straight acting" it's the "acting" part that's the key. They're "acting straight" because they hate themselves for being gay.

    Every word that Crocker says is true.

    Posted by: David Ehrenstein | May 5, 2011 10:38:53 AM


  6. I had not realized there was a problem between feminine and masculine gays. Oh wait..there's not. The problem is these drama queens fabricating, well, drama. Listen we gays invented drama queens. So it's no suprised this (non)issue is being over-dramatized within our community.

    Instead of going to the clubs on the weekends, I downhill mountain bike, work in the barn, watch football, tinker with the cars, but I have no problem with feminine gays..but I do have a problem with this Chris Crocker. Doesn't this queen have better things to do than to stir up trouble within our own community?

    Posted by: Ian | May 5, 2011 10:51:59 AM


  7. David, "straight acting" usually simply refers to a gay man with masculine mannerisms. I was BORN THIS WAY and love myself for being gay. I'm not acting you idiot. Of all people to misunderstand that concept, I can't believe it's our own gay community. Knock it off with the fabricated drama.

    Posted by: Ian | May 5, 2011 10:59:54 AM


  8. To David Ehrenstein, if every word he says is true then we as a community shouldn't be discriminating against each other. And saying a whole group of people act straight because they hate themselves is a pretty wild generalization.

    You can't have it both ways, because then you'd be bisexual and we hate those guys who just can't make up their minds right?

    Posted by: Peter m | May 5, 2011 11:00:56 AM


  9. Except, most of the ones on this blog crying "straight acting" are the queens. I don't describe myself as "straight acting," though plenty of fems have accused me of it.

    To me I just am myself, and if someone has a problem with it, that's entirely on them. I know too many straight men who are effeminate to believe that masculinity is strictly a straight man's province.

    As far as being offended by CC's comments; hardly. My remarks were towards the people on the forum crying about all gay men are really effeminate, and that any who behave otherwise are putting on a show because they hate themselves. sorry, but fail logic, remains fail.

    Posted by: LiamB | May 5, 2011 11:03:57 AM


  10. Wow, I never thought I would have high regard for something that came out of Chris Crocker's mouth. He just started a conversation we should have been having for a long time. Way to go Chris!

    Posted by: DaVinciSmetana | May 5, 2011 11:13:50 AM


  11. Chris is correct. As long as "straight-acting" gay men merely tolerate gay men that do not self-identify as such, we have a problem. It is like when people say they are cool with gays/homosexuals but are disgusted when they see same-sex kisses on TV. Don't shove it in my face. Red flag!

    It is so funny...many gay men that self-identify as "straight-acting" are not at all perceived as straight by other people. Fail.

    The solution is never tolerance. Perhaps the solution is acceptance and love.

    Posted by: excy | May 5, 2011 11:16:51 AM


  12. As an "outsider" I see it. Everytime someone criticizes drag queens, hair dressers, etc as "stereotypical" is really saying that they should not allowed to be inclined towards what they like or enjoy.

    When those drag queens protested that prom that refused to allow gay couples, the reaction from many on this site was that they were somehow the wrong people to be protesting, like drag queens should just go away or keep their mouths shut.

    If you like computers, then go work with computers, if you like to cut hair, cut hair. You wanna put on a wig and lip synch for a living, go right ahead.

    Having a "community" dictate to you what you should act like or to tell you that you don't really like what you like and that you're too stupid to realize that you're part of The Man's socialization ....that's just not fair.

    Do your own funky thing all the time and you will live a happy life.

    Posted by: Rin | May 5, 2011 11:17:08 AM


  13. After reading these comments, I couldn't help but add my own input. There seems to be a distinction drawn by many who seek to take the edge off of a lot of the hurtful words that Mr. Crocker is saying. This distinction is that he only means to castigate so-called self-identified "straight acting" gays who in turn disparage more feminine gays. The rest of my post is directed toward the explicit claims made in the video, but I would say to the people mentioned above that if this distinction is to be maintained, then it would behoove Mr. Crocker, his defenders and his position to couch his message in far less inflammatory rhetoric and far less reaching terms.

    As someone on the more (but by no means exclusively) masculine end of the spectrum, I've always abhorred the idea that fem guys are embarrassing, "not men" and any of the other aspersions cast on this segment of our community. Anyone in support of these ideas affirms a heteronormative gender orthodoxy that is used in kind to deligitimize and disparage ALL gay people. In other words, the very nature of being gay (regardless of outward gender projection) does not jive with traditional gender archetypes, and therefore should be eschewed as something with inherent value or worth by all in our community.

    With that said, gender expression is a very real thing, and the distinctions above notwithstanding, I felt attacked by this message. There seemed to be a lot of insinuations that masculine men are not out, and therefore are not a legitimate part of the gay community. Whether or not Mr. Crocker himself holds these beliefs, I've seen them expressed before on multiple occasions and these exclusions do nothing to strengthen our community.

    I would also ask him and others who share his opinion to consider with some compassion and restraint the next time they aver that such people are not "out," and whose comfortable/innate gender expressions may allow them some "camoflage" now (whether or not that is a goal), but might have made it that much harder to come out in the first place.

    He did mention that masculine gays should acknowledge that fem gays are not putting on a show. I personally think that anyone who holds this opinion (that such dudes are putting on a show) is an uncommon sort of fool, but isn't there just as much sentiment (if not more) that masculine guys are simply putting on a front? Isn't so much of the LGBT movement about just being oneself?

    Finally, the trotting out of this "duality" and "straight world complex" are especially galling. I personally don't want to shut myself off from 90% of the rest of the world, for whatever reason. The idea that anyone should pursue any sort of identity that would is a very strange and suspicious one, I think. I personally wish I had far more gay friends (of all stripes), and hopefully when this happens I will retain every single one of my straight friends, whose own genders and sexual identities mean about as much to me as mine do to them (i.e., nada).

    Posted by: Conor | May 5, 2011 11:19:02 AM


  14. I'm a "masculine gay" (btw, I hate "gay" used as a noun) and I loooooooove my nellie brothers as friends and lovers and *role models*. That's right, role models - I had the luxury of staying in the closet until I was good and ready to come out; meanwhile, my sissy brethren in high school and earlier had to learn how to put up with hazing and discrimination from the start.

    The blessing of being gay is being set free from gender-normative expectations, at least the ones you place on yourself. I like both the stereotypically gay and the "straight-acting" characteristics in myself and it's a shame that some men make it to adulthood so threatened by their own feminine characteristics that they hate seeing them in other men, straight and gay.

    Posted by: piminnowcheez | May 5, 2011 11:33:54 AM


  15. Ian, "masculine mannerisms" doesn't=straight. It does=masculine. Not all straight men are overtly masculine or macho. And anyone who says they "act straight" clearly has major masculinity issues. No, you're gay. Straight isn't an act. People who feel the need to box and label themselves are doing so out of insecurity for the most part.

    Conor, you shouldn't feel attacked by his message if it doesn't pertain to you. He's 100% right about many masculine gays who DO go out of their way to blend in. Of course, not all do, but do a lot? Yes. And who DO pride themselves on not being overtly identifiably gay. And who DO go out of their way to make statements like "I'm not really connected with the gay community." or "I don't have many gay friends." Femme men are more likely to fully embrace their sexuality as a whole, because as Chris said, they can't hide it, they are who they are, there are no secrets and they generally stand up for each other due to the fact they feel denigrated from all avenues with nowhere to turn but to each other.

    And just for the record, I'm not femme. More like someone who isn't so insecure in who I am as a man, that I need to create distinctions just to feel better in my own skin or gain a false sense of acceptance. Chris was NOT talking about all masculine gays. So if you take what he says to heart and get offended by his statements, you have some things you need to address within yourself.

    Posted by: Francis | May 5, 2011 11:37:28 AM


  16. OK, I am going to try to be succinct here, but probably won't be able to be.

    1) Referring to other men in the feminine vernacular ("she" "girl") is a conscious choice that has nothing to do with "nature" or your DNA; so is running from a fight, even when you are twice the size of the punk challenging you; so is living vicariously through women and iconizing them; so is walking with a swish (women walk that way because their physiology causes them to--if men do, it is an affectation)

    2) Society is NEVER going to accept or respect men who fail to measure up to masculine standards, nor should it. Masculine values are essential to the survival of a society and making it socially acceptable for men to be weak and passive would weaken a society and make it vulnerable to attack--(any guy that runs from a fight is likely to be unwilling to defend his country, if necessary). Cowardice is never going to be "OK" because "that's just the way I am". No, you are not that way--you have learned to be a coward by internalizing society's notion that your sexuality is equated with lack of masculinity..

    3) Which leads to this point: The solution to this problem is not for masculine gays to accept cowardly and effeminate gays, but for the latter to deal with their own issues. You are NOT naturally feminine--no man is--you have become that way by internalizing homophobic notions and YOU are the ones drowning in self-hatred. Want confirmation of that? Just look at how you, yourselves WORSHIP masculinity and masculine men--in other words, people who are not like you. They are the ones that titillate you the most sexually, aren't they? And is that not a reflection of your own lack of self-acceptance? Have you ever heard anybody say how turned on they are by effeminate behavior? No, you haven't--and there is a reason for that, isn't there?

    4) We are at a critical juncture in history. We have gotten society to the point where they accept the notion that homosexuality is not "abnormal", but further acceptance depends on us demonstrating that male homosexuality and a lack of masculinity do not go hand in hand. And historically, they have not. Ancient Spartan armies performed 69 as a bonding ritual before going into battle. AMong the Asmat in New Guinea, who were traditionally the fiercest headhunters in existence, virtually all men had male lovers in addition to wives. So let me be clear about this. Being gay is NOT an excuse for being unmasculine and those of you who try to continue to make it such will continue to be assailed by those of us who realize the damage you are doing to all of us by pretending that is is, just so that you can go on being weak and cowardly....which is, of course, much easier than not being weak and cowardly.

    I will end there as this message is already too long, but I think the essence of what needed to be said has been

    Posted by: Rick | May 5, 2011 11:49:14 AM


  17. Francis, I agree with you, and I did not say that "masculine mannerisms" = straight...if you re-read, what I said was that when people refer to "straight acting" gays, that usually simply mean gays with more masculine mannerisms (and has nothing to do with acting). The term "straight acting" is not usually meant literally. It's a terribly worded term that I don't personally use and wish we could do away with.

    Posted by: Ian | May 5, 2011 12:00:57 PM


  18. Hey, MILKMAN:

    If you're coming to Philly next month for Pride Week then that goes right along with this discussion. It's the one week of the year when Gay people seem to put aside their prejudices and judgmental views on "masculine vs feminine". You see all types, and if you actually talk to one of those "types" you find that no human being is a stereotype--we are all unique individuals. There aint no such thing as a damn stereotype in real life--never has been.

    Yep, everybody gets along during Gay Pride Week in whatever city you go to or whatever Gay racial/ethnic festivities you attend. Then comes Sunday night after it's all over and most Gay folks go back to their same old prejudices (even me).

    Posted by: Derrick from Philly | May 5, 2011 12:12:04 PM


  19. Oh, and I'm with Ian. This kid is showboating. And totally CONTRIBUTING to over-rigid FALSE notions of what masculinity even IS. For ANYONE.

    I mean, it's entertaining from a Jersey Shore type perspective.

    But not credible. And a pastiche. Maybe even self-harming. Take that, Crocker.

    But u DO seem amusing to have around, kid :--).

    Posted by: just_a_guy | May 5, 2011 12:20:07 PM


  20. I disagree with his point that wanting a broader representation of the gay community in the media is automatically discrimination against feminine gays. I am by no means masculine, most people can tell that I'm gay. I have absolutely no problem with people who are more feminine than me, thats who they are and they're an important part of our community. On the other hand I feel that the exclusively feminine way gays are portrayed leaves me unrepresented. I honestly find the idea offensive: that you must be self-hating if you want more variety in the depiction of homosexuality.

    Posted by: Thomas | May 5, 2011 12:33:27 PM


  21. From my perspective the fems are the ones who hate the masculines. We get accused of faking it, fitting in, complying with society etc. We are just ourselves to. From where im standing i see plenty of fem guys who are faking it to and are using it as an excuse for being generally loud and unpleasant.. and oh yes.. attention seeking.. (youtube videos??).

    Posted by: Rovex | May 5, 2011 12:36:43 PM


  22. @rick,

    if you think that "fighting" is a masculine trait or that cowardice/running away is a feminine trait then I urge you to watch any mother whose child has been threatened. Female tigers, crocs, etc are considered the fiercest creatures in the wild --not the males.

    What we typically choose to fight about is different, the chemicals are different, etc. Cowards? No, no. I also saw a drag queen beat the crap out of a guy in Frederickburg, so...no screaming, hands in the air...

    I have YET to back down from a fight--even with a bigger person in my face. Female or femme doesn't equal weak.

    Posted by: Rin | May 5, 2011 12:46:06 PM


  23. Okay, I do believe that what Chris is saying has some validity to it. There is discrimination among the gay comunity, that is for sure. But what he is saying that the so called "masculine" man is always the one to do the discrimination. I've seen just the opposite also. I've been on dates were I have told my date that I am a sports fan. I play sports and I watch sports. They have gotten up and left the table. It doesnt matter if it masculine or femminine.

    Second. On the whole femme gay men give the gay comunity a bad name. I am going to have to say the flamboyent (over the top gay) men give the gay comunity a bad name, with them being outragous and boysturous about everything. Outwordly talk about blow jobs and gay sex, when they see or hear something they like they say "I just got hard." etc... What give them the right to do that kind of stuff in public. Its not okay for a straight man to do that so why is it okay for a gay male to do that.

    Three. The "masculine" gay man doesn't hide in the straight community. They are not as open about their sexuality as a "femme" would be. Why do they have to be? It's their own choice on how they live their life. No, I don't think that they should discriminate against femmes, but that means femmes shouldn't discriminate against them.

    I am a member of a LGBT community program that tries to take on these issues and I have dealt with all these issues.

    Posted by: Travis | May 5, 2011 12:54:35 PM


  24. I do think that some boys and men are naturally feminine. I think this is true in any culture, even cultures with no taboos against same-sex attraction.

    To Rick especially, masculine ancient warrior societies ranging from Native American to ancient Germanic had a very honored place for feminine males, usually as priests and spiritual guides. Rick, you might enjoy some leisure reading about Native American berdache and the priesthood in ancient Scandinavia. I think you're swimming in the wrong direction to demand that they change or get deprogrammed or whatever.

    Take a look at the insightful quote from Just a Guy: "But u DO seem amusing to have around, kid :--)." Masculine men (straight, bi, gay, whatever) are quite often attracted to feminine males -- in the absence of sexual taboos, of course. I think masculine gay men will begin to accept feminine males when straight men do. What?! Straight men accept feminine males?! Um...don't look now, but it's happening as we speak (or rather, as we post).

    Posted by: Phil | May 5, 2011 1:00:19 PM


  25. Wow, that was suprisingly articulate and well presented.

    I lean towards the masculine side and have been accused of the "sissyphobia" here and there. It's never my intention to treat the queens with disrespect, I just find I have nothing in common with them and see it as a show. But, I see Chris' point and if I were him, I'd tell guys like myself to "f*ck off!" too.

    Well done Chris, message received loud and clear.

    Posted by: Ben | May 5, 2011 1:09:54 PM


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