Ted Haggard Voicemails Analyzed; Pastor Admits to Indiscretions

The Acting Senior Pastor of Ted Haggard’s New Life Church, Ross Parsley, told KKTV news Thursday night that there has been “some admission to indiscretion” by Haggard, though he would not give details of the admission. Parsley says that work with “outside overseers” brought out the confession from Haggard.

Voice_expertMeanwhile, 9news brought in a nationally recognized voice expert to analyze two voicemails that Mike Jones claims were Haggard asking him about methamphetamine.

Voicemail 1:

“”Hi Mike, this is Art. Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more. Either $100 or $200 supply. And I could pick it up really anytime I could get it tomorrow or we could wait till next week sometime and so I also wanted to get your address. I could send you some money for inventory but that’s probably not working, so if you have it then go ahead and get what you can and I may buzz up there later today, but I doubt your schedule would allow that unless you have some in the house. Okay, I’ll check in with you later. Thanks a lot, bye.”

Haggard22Voicemail 2 (Listen – WMV):

“Hi Mike, this is Art, I am here in Denver and sorry that I missed you. But as I said, if you want to go ahead and get the stuff, then that would be great. And I’ll get it sometime next week or the week after or whenever. I will call though you early next week to see what’s most convenient for you. Okay? Thanks a lot, bye.”

Said speech expert Richard Sanders: “This certainly sounds like the same person. If we can find enough words and phrases that match then it’s generally accepted by courts that that’s the same person.” (Listen – WMV)

“Everybody is 100 percent for him, for his family, and for encouraging the process where he gets some great encouragement and spiritual counsel.”

Church Leader Says Haggard Admits To Some Indiscretions [kktv]
Voice expert believes Haggard contacted male escort [9news]

Previously
Evangelical Leader Ted Haggard Steps Down After Gay Escort Claims They Had a Sexual Relationship for Three Years [tr]

Comments

  1. Bill says

    Another hypocrit exposed; let’s get them all. The time for “down low” is over. It’s time to let the chips fall where they may. It’s for our own existence and honor.

  2. jessejames says

    Praise the Lord and Pass the Crystal Meth! Amen

    Well, obviously, this is all part of the “homosexual agenda” to bring down the right wing Christians and the Republican Party. Yes, that’s it!

  3. Michael W. says

    I love it! The more people who are outed in hypocritical situations, the more people will have to accept that homosexual sex is a natural occurence.

  4. stuart says

    Homophobia seems to be most virulent in self-loathing homosexuals. Whenever I hear an antigay comment I immediately wonder withwhom the homophobe is sleeping or with whom he or she would like to be sleeping. I also wonder about emotionally cruel upbringings, intolerant religious households, and odviously poor parenting. Why anyone would find solace or inspiration in the clearly emotionally distrubed and undereducated rantings of sexually confused self hating homophobe is beyond me.

  5. Mark says

    It’s so interesting to think about what lies behind someone’s motivation. So textbook.

    Apply that to Bush and you come to understand the pathetic need for validation even though he never did the “work” necessary to garner true respect and admiration.

  6. says

    Andy, thanks for you complete coverage of this whole thing as it unfolds.

    It continuously amazes me how people will do or say anything to complete dupe the public and obtain power and wealth and then in private embody everything that they’ve spoken out against.

  7. mark m says

    I came to the realization that I had homosexual tendencies around 13 but I kept it to myself and refused to act on the “urges” until well into my 20’s, instead trying to go the straight and narrow route and blanket myself in my church and Faith.

    However, unlike Haggard, I did not preach against the gays and I internally sympathized with others who were openly gay, even as I lied about it myself.

    The dishonesty, however, took its toll on me pyschologically. I hit rock bottom before I finally came to terms with my sexuality.

    My life began when I finally came out. The truth literally set me free.

    I have been a Christian my entire life, so I cannot in good conscience cast stones at a man when he’s down, BUT I’m not willing to accept him with open arms if he’s just going to make excuses for his behavior or turn to the “Ex Gays” for reformation. He has caused countless others pain and heartache beyond his immediate family and congregation. At best, his teachings have confused young gay kids. At worst, his teachings may have contributed to some suicides (statistically it’s probable).

    That’s a lot of wrong to make right.

  8. Brian says

    If this is a vast left-wing conspiracy to bring down the homophobic right wing, then I’m impressed. Our side has never EVER been able to pull off something that requires such careful planning and efficient execution. It must have been done at the grass roots level, because the Dems could never have gotten it together enough to make it work.

    Kidding aside, it’s just awesome. “What a wicked web we weave… ”

  9. karashi says

    HA-ha! /Nelson

    I’m all for letting people stay in the closet. I don’t support outing, in general.

    But people who are actively being dicks to the gay community? Out ’em.

    Sigh, you’d think by now being accepting of gays would be the best thing one could do to assert one’s hetersexuality. It’s so obvious now that homophobia = repressed internalized homophobia.

  10. Mike in the Tundra says

    It’s a terrible shame that this man has hurt so many. Besides his wife and family, there’s the members of his congregation. I’m hardly a fan of evangelicals, but they must be hurting. However, what irks me the most is Haggerd’s blaming this on election year politics. Even when he was almost caught in the act, he had to continue twisting things around to his warped, right-wing idealology.

  11. sam says

    I saw the acting senior pastor, Rod Parsley, on the morning news today and what was most interesting part to me was that Parsley seemed even more obviously gay than Haggard! Are there ANY heterosexuals in that church?

  12. mark m says

    OMG Sam you beat me to the post… I just saw the same clip and my Gaydar went off the richter scale.

    My personal background in an Evangelical church tells me that the answer to your question is, yes they’re all “heterosexual”…. what they do in the bedroom, however, could confuse that term.

  13. condihater says

    “Homophobia seems to be most virulent in self-loathing homosexuals.” My mom, a Midwestern farm woman, always said “you hate the one you love most”. People like Haggard are not Christians, just like people like Dubya are not conservatives. They’re wolves in sheep’s clothing — just animals with no morals.

  14. Zeke says

    Mike in the Tundra, all the hurt that Haggard has caused his wife, his family and his congregation all put together doesn’t begin to compare with the hurt he has caused gay kids, gay adults and THEIR families over the many years that he has demonized and marginalized them and made them feel sick, perverted, deviant and less than worthy of God’s love all the while living a seedy, secret homosexual life himself.

    As I said earlier, I’m anxious to see if he will include gays and their families in his forthcoming tearful confession and begging for forgiveness for the hurt he’s caused God, his family and his congregation. I won’t be holding my breath!

    Congregation: con-gra-GAY-shun a group of Christian evangelicals gathered in one place for the purpose of shunning gays.

  15. Glenn says

    “all the hurt that Haggard has caused his wife, his family and his congregation all put together doesn’t begin to compare with the hurt he has caused gay kids, gay adults and THEIR families over the many years”

    Amen, Zeke…preach on, brother.

  16. Zeke says

    And let’s not forget, even when confronted with what he KNEW was true, he STILL lied and tried feverishly to hold his closet door closed.

    The man is pathological.

    I will gaurantee you that this is not a man who is going to have a Jim McGreevy, “I am a gay American” moment. You can bet that he will play victim and blame all of his troubles on Satan, the homosexual agenda and Crystal Meth right before shipping himself off for reChristianization and deSatanization therapy. A few months later he will make his very public and triumphant Homo-No-Mo return as the poster boy for Exodus.

    And the fundamentalist flock of sheep will eat it up.

    He still has every opportunity to use this scandal to further hurt, insult and assault the gay communtiy.

    I’m not willing to even consider forgiving him until he takes responsibility for his actions, begs forgiveness for all the damage he’s caused me, my family and my community and proves to me that he will turn over a new leaf in the future.

    Once again, I’m not holding my breath.

  17. mark m says

    CNN is reporting that members of Haggard’s congregation are upset at the allegations but believe their pastor is innocent.

    And this just in… THE SKY IS BLUE.

  18. JT says

    Zeke: I respect your conviction to your faith and your ability to forgive. I don’t share that faith and I refuse to forgive these types of people. What is, essentially, a death-bed conversion has little place in my system of ethics. This creature is like Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Baker. virtually all Pentecostal and COGIC “bishops: et al. They recognized the lucre in religion and they grasp for it. “I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it.

    I heard Mr. Jones on the radio today. When asked if his revelation was due to the election and politics, he truthfully responded “yes.” Cool.

    Zeke, you list the demonization that Mr. Haggard does to us, gay people, from his pulpit. Include, in that litany: women who choose to exercise control over their bodies, teachers who teach science instead of superstition, patriots who refuse to accept a Christianization of our government, humanitarians who believe taxation can lead to social progress, and people who choose to see the divine in the face of Vishnu.

    There are some evils that can never be forgiven.

  19. mark m says

    And more…. Jones failed his lie detector test… We certainly don’t know the entire story.. the possibilities are endless….

    Haggard is innocent of any wrongdoing (nah!)

    Jones isn’t the escort who Haggard has been using, but he knows who is and is coming forward in their place.

    Haggard bought drugs from Jones but never had sex with him.

    Whatever the truth is it matters very little to me what version we are getting… there is STILL something damning for Haggard to resign from both the organization he chairs and the church he built from the ground up. If you’re innocent you dont run. PERIOD.

  20. GBM says

    Wow, I didn’t realize Ted’s middle name is Arthur, which make his pseudonym ‘Art’ all the more damning…I mean, not to mention the voicemails that sound exactly like Ted Haggard trying to score some Tina. That’s pretty dammning too. I wonder if Jones has hard evidence of their sexual ‘transactions’ as well.

  21. Zeke says

    It’s actually better that Jones isn’t the prostitute that Haggard was getting it on with, although his lying about it will bring the whole story into question. It’s good that the actual prostitute is willing to come forward. That gives us a drug dealer AND a prostitute with corroborating stories.

    It was REALLY stupid for Jones to lie about the details especially when he volunteered to go live on the radio to take a polygraph.

    What’s really funny is the story about James Dobson, Focus on the Family and other Colorado Springs fundamentalists frantically organizing a mass rally to support Haggard until the acting pastor of Haggard’s church called them up and insisted that they cancel it.

    Do you get the impression that FOF and Daddy Dobson are circling the wagons to protect their empire?

    Do they not realize that circling wagons doesn’t help when your empire is crumbling from the INSIDE?

  22. candi says

    What’s that i see walking and quacking, in the distance?

    Why…..it’s a duck, and it looks and sounds exactly like Ted Haggard. Maybe he and Mark Foley, can be roomies…..in rehab because i bet that’s where he’s headed.

  23. patrick nyc says

    Well said Mark M. Even if Jones is not one of his tricks, maybe just a dealer for his Tina, he may know of guys who are messing with that pig. I’m sure that more will come out, otherwise he would not have quit so soon. From the Meth Queens I’ve encountered one thing is common, they love to get high and fuck around all the time, someone else is going to speak up. Give the sleeze media time, they’ll find the dirt.

    I too thought that Parsley looked a bit fey, I mean he’s named after a spice. His interview just cast more shadow on a very dark story, “outside overseers”?. The blessing, thank you Jesus, is that the focus is off Kerry and his lame joke and on the Religous Right.

  24. Brian Geoffrey says

    If Jones wasn’t the one Haggard was banging, then he may NOT have lied.

    He said that he had a three year “sexual business relationship” with Haggard, so maybe that means that Jones was acting as the PIMP????? (As well as drug dealer…)

  25. Jonathon says

    OUT THEM ALL!!!! Guys, we must declare ALL OUT WAR on these homophobes and hypocrites. TAKE THEM ALL DOWN!!!

    Even if “all” of the allegations aren’t true, it looks like we’ve taken down another intolerant voice who has so maligned and harmed our community.

    Now, WHO’S NEXT?

  26. Cory says

    In the words of Whitney. Merry Crystal-meth-mas! Just when things couldn’t get any worse for the Republikkklan’s and their right-wing CLOSET case nuts, this is delivered in a nicely ribboned Holiday gift box…

  27. Timothy says

    ABC news quote:
    “Jones also told ABC News that he never actually procured drugs for Haggard.”

    So let’s all calm down and enjoy watching this train crash.

  28. Bam Bam says

    McGreevy, Foley, Haggard, etc…..

    keep them coming boys. Actually, that might be the problem?

    In any case, each of these three people deserved to be seen for who they really are. Unfortunately, it sends out a terrible message to people everywhere when gay men are so ashamed of who they truly are that they actually do things to hurt the rest of the community.

    These are all cautionary tails.

  29. mark m says

    Yes Zeke, the empire is truly crumbling from within. Back when the Swaggart and Baker scandals were big, my Mom, a conservative Christian, called it “God cleaning house.” While I think her viewpoint is definitely skewed from mine, I agree, God IS cleaning house.

    A Christian author was on Bill Maher a couple of weeks ago (I forget his name) but he summed it up nicely. Christians have been seduced by power.

    The ultimate message of Christ was humanitarian, not political. Evangelicals are now reaping a bitter harvest for their greed and power hungry aspirations. They have twisted and distorted the message they claim to follow and God is bringing out the Dirt Devil to suck ’em all up.

  30. Zeke says

    JT, you are ABSOLUTELY right that the gay community is one of many groups of people that this man preyed upon. He was an equal opportunity destroyer.

    I want to make a couple of things clear. Yes, I am committed to my faith, which, unlike Haggard’s, recognizes and attempts to follow the teachings and examples of Christ (as well as other enlightened figures in history: Buddha, Gandhi etc.). Though I have the CAPACITY to forgive I am FULLY human and am not always quick to offer forgiveness. My faith teaches me to forgive, even before I’m asked. To be honest, I’ve NEVER been able to live up to this ideal and I’m certain that that won’t change with Haggard.

    I have not forgiven Haggard yet and sadly I can’t swear to you that I ever will. What I can promise, is that if he admits to the hurt he’s caused to so many, ASKS for forgiveness, and shows an honest effort to repair the damage he’s done, THEN I will do my best to find a way to forgive him. At this point that’s the best I can do and, as I said before, I’m not holding my breath.

    If I claim to follow the teachings and examples of Christ but I can’t find a way to forgive those who have hurt me, then I am just as big of a Christian hypocrite as Haggard.

    To be honest, I take a certain sense of satisfaction from the knowledge that a man who has spent a lifetime trying to control the thoughts and actions of others, is found to be totally incapable of controlling his own and totally ineffective (to his dismay) in controlling mine

    It gives me a sense of peace AND power to realize that I, unlike he, DO have control over my own thoughts and actions because I don’t try to force a square peg into a round hole. Being able to forgive the unforgivable is one way I can demonstrate this self-control.

    Trust me my friend; nothing pisses off the self-righteous more than a “sinner” who acts more Christian than they do.

    One of my greatest callings in life is to piss off the self-righteous. That’s yet another lesson that I learned from the teachings and examples of Christ; one of the greatest and most effective self-righteous pisser offers in history.

  31. jeff says

    I won’t celebrate this outing until our lame community stops heaping praise on politicians who come late to the party when it’s convenient for them. Yeah, I’m talking ’bout you, McGreevey!

    And to every weak gay guy who has ever hooked up with a public person that actively denounces gays – and then agrees to keep it confidential – fuck you.

  32. says

    I am part gleeful that such a powerful man on the right has fallen, and part hopeful that he is able to find some help outside of the evangelicals to find peace with his inner demons, and hope that he finds a 12-step program really soon, too.

  33. Jason says

    Does anyone see a resemblence between Haggard and Patrick Swayze’s role in Donnie Darko? Both of them were evangelist types who liked dudes… although Swayze’s character was more along the lines of child pornography if I recall.

    Sick as this situation is I’m at least grateful though Haggard was soliciting another ADULT and not raping a child.

  34. Zeke says

    Jerry Falwell is claiming that he doesn’t know who Haggard is.

    So let me get this “straight”; Jerry Falwell, the queen of all things EEEVANGELICAL, is totally unfamiliar with, and has NEVER met, the PRESIDENT of THE AMERICAN EVANGELICAL ASSOCIATION with whom he is on a conference call to the White House weekly?

    And in today’s episode of “The Passion of the Christ” we have Jerry Falwell playing the role of Peter and Theodore Haggart playing the role of Christ.

    Scene one: Peter, three times, denies knowing Christ….

    Oh, I forgot to mention, we have Mike Jones in the role of the crowing Cock.

    …aaaaand ACTION!

  35. Marco says

    Good call, Jason. I totally see that.

    I like how he admitted to some indescretion. Like he kinda just sucked some of a guys dick, but not the whole thing.

    The Lord works in mysterious ways.

  36. Glenn says

    I don’t get it…What is this obsession some guys here have about McGreevey? Yeah, he was no ideal gay role model…but if you can’t see the difference between him and this Haggard creep, then you really have no ability to make moral distinctions.

  37. Twink says

    I don’t see a whole lot of difference between this guy and the closeted Catholic priests who were preaching anti-homosexuality every sunday at mass. The protestants are just now getting their comeuppance.

  38. Fed says

    The thing about homosexuality that most people don’t understand, is that it is a spiritual problem in nature. The source of all homosexual tendencies, whether it be thoughts that produce emotions and body sensations, is the devil. Now before you dismiss what I’m saying, just finish reading. God created the male for the female. Because of sin which empowered the devil in the earth, Satan has been busy in perverting creation since the fall of Adam and Eve.

    What I’m saying is that there is a demonic spirit or spirits behind the homosexual behavior. Many people can be delivered from this demonic infestation by casting the devil out in the name of Jesus Christ. That can be done either by a born-again minister or by an individual who makes Jesus Christ his Lord and Savior.

    If you are a homosexual and are born again, or want to get born again, you can take authority over the demonic spirits influencing you, and cast them out by the name of Jesus Christ. The devil only submits to the name and authority of Jesus Christ. You can be free from this.

    I’m a bible believing-practicing Christian who at some point in my teenage years was heavily attacked by the devil with homosexual thoughts that produced some desire to carry out those things. But when I came to Christ at 20, and after I learned the truth about the devil, I took my authority in Jesus to deal with it. I never struggled with it again. I was literally demon possessed, but now I’m free, Jesus set me free. I’m now married to a woman and can tell you the truth, I’m absolutely free from whatever the devil wanted to do to destroy my life.

    I’m not condemming Ted Haggard nor the male prostitute. There is no sin that Jesus did not take to the Cross. Jesus provides forgiveness, cleansing and deliverance for all types of sin, no matter how terrible they are. Jesus doesn’t condem homosexuals, even thought homosexuality is a terrible sin that is destroying people’s lives.

    You see, people don’t go to hell for individual sins they commit, they go to hell because of 1 sin and 1 sin only: the rejection of Jesus Christ. You can be a homosexual and a Christian and you will go to heaven, you might get there quicker since you’re open to the devil to come to destroy you, not to mention all the diseases you’re embracing. But homosexuality will not send you to hell. Rejecting Jesus will send you to hell.

    But, if you truly love God, and if the Holy Spirit dwells in you, you will know that homosexuality is a sin and you will want to be free from it. Again, you can take your authority in Christ to cast the devil out in the name of Jesus.

  39. rudy says

    Twink, The Catholic priests with whom I am familiar were hardly “preaching anti-homosexuality every [S]unday at [M]ass”. How long has it been since you have been in a church, Twink? I have never heard a priest preach anti-homosexuality. Indeed, there are virtually no readings upon which the sermons are based that would lead to that subject. The Church can be accused (deservedly) of many things but the vast majority of individual priests are not homophobic and would not ever address the issue in a public sermon. I have known many gay and straight Catholic priests and not one has ever preached “anti-homosexuality”. It discredits your argument when you cast your net so broadly. Most Catholic priests are exceedingly uncomfortable with the gospel of greed and condemnation preached by the Evangelicals. Your lack of knowledge of theological philosophy is appalling. Condemn those priests who are pedophiles and demand that they be brought to justice but differentiate between criminal activities and theological practice.

  40. Jonathon says

    “FED” is one of the first trolls I have seen on towleroad… and what a confused one he is!

    You want to blame homosexuality on “the devil”. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

    That is about as silly as saying “I have blue eyes because of the Flying Spaghetti Monster”.

    FED, my homosexuality is a GIFT FROM GOD. I celebrate that fact each and every day of my life. Being gay, I have a perspective on the world that is different from most everyone else. I can understand things in ways that straight people can’t. I am a white boy from the rural South, surrounded by racism. Because I came to understand and embrace my sexuality it gave me cause to think about what life is like for minorities and how hard life can be when a majority hates you simply because of who and what you are. Being gay was the greatest thing that ever happened to me.

    Sounds like FED got some really bad advice early on in his adolescence. Here’s hoping that he can find solace and eventually embrace himself and his sexuality without having to blame “the devil” for feelings that other people tell him are “bad”.

  41. Glenn says

    I was trying to figure out if “Fed” was a parody troll, but unfortunately I’m thinking he’s probably the real deal. Is there a Troll Exorcism rite anywhere handy?

  42. Jethro says

    Rudy,

    I am not Catholic and have no idea what individual priests say on the issue, but I do remember that the Vatican tried to pass off their responsibility for aiding and abetting child molesters by vowing to ban openly gay men from priesthood. The equation of homosexuality and pedophilia is some pretty heinous theological philosophy, no?

  43. Zeke says

    Rudy my friend, Twink may have cast a net too broadly over the Catholic Church but you can’t really be serious in claiming that the Church is not anti-gay at the most fundamental level. You can not possibly be unaware of the all too frequent anti-gay condemnations coming from the Vatican and from Bishops and priests in dioceses across America and around the world. You can’t have overlooked the active roll the Church has taken in the demonization of gays in the marriage equality debate and their tireless work in promoting anti gay marriage amendments across the country and mobilizing voters to support them. A quick Google search would clear up any doubts. Keywords: Gay, Catholic

    I’m glad that this hasn’t been your personal experience with the priests you have known, but to deny the clear homophobia that runs rampant throughout all levels of the Catholic Church is at best disingenuous and at worst dishonest.

    I realize that this truth may be hurtful to good Catholics such as yourself, just as it must be to good protestant fundamentalists, but it does not serve our interests OR the interests of the Church to deny or excuse the obvious.

    I myself am a devout Christian (ooh scary!) but I can’t deny that those who claim to be leaders of my faith have traditionally been the most cruel, ignorant and hateful zealots in the anti-gay crusade in this country. I am ashamed of that; I am offended by that; I am embarrassed by that, but my denying it or excusing it won’t make it any less so.

    Like they say in AA, the first step on the road to recovery is admitting we have a problem. I fully acknowledge that my faith has A LOT of blood on its hands. I personally feel that the best way to change this fact is to educate the people of my faith rather than to bend over backwards to defend them against allegations that, though they may be exaggerated and upsetting, are basically true.

    The Catholic Church has done a lot of good over the years but that doesn’t excuse it from being exposed and held responsible for the harm that it has caused.

    As a Christian myself, I don’t say these things to hurt you Rudy my friend; I say them because I look to you, a fellow gay person of the Christian faith, to stand with me and publicly challenge those who have bastardized the message of Christ, regardless of their sect or denomination.

    Please don’t think that taking responsibility for our own means that we are conceding to those who believe that there are no good priests, bishops, pastors or evangelists. We can make it clear that there are priests and pastors who are not anti-gay, but it would make it a lot easier if THEY were more vocal in making that clear themselves. Sadly, too many religious leaders are in the closet about their support for gays and lesbians.

    I realize I probably just ruined any chances of ever being called level headed and calming again but I say what I honestly believe to be true even if I’m afraid it may not win me friends.

  44. Marco says

    Fed is more proof the religon is a neurological disorder. Fairy Tales anyone?

    Fed, you could have blamed homosexuality on Santa, not Satan for what it’s worth. It’d have been just as valid an argument.

  45. rudy says

    Jethro, The Vatican did not “vow” anything of the sort. Yes, an inquiry was conducted, a survey made of seminaries and seminarians, and the results showed what most Catholics had long ago figured out. A substantial minority of seminarians are gay. The Church does not permit a sexually active clergy (either hetero or homo). Now, the discussion is raging whether that should be changed. No decision has been reached or is likely to be reached any time soon. As to the implication that homosexuality and pedophilia are linked, some misguided spokesmen did indeed suggest this. However, this is not the Church’s official position. And, such statements do not consititute theological philosophy, heinous or not. If you want to debate the suggestion that homosexality is “intrnisically disordered” then join the discussion that is indeed occuring within the Church. (The Church being defined as the members, not the hierarchy, as we must continually remind those who “protect the firm” to its detriment. The hierarchy are the servents of the members although they too often forget this.) As for preditor priests, no one is more offended than Catholics. There has been universal condemnation among the laity regarding not only the predatory behaviour itself but the even more culpable behaviour of the hierarchy to deny, cover up and ignore the problem. It is good that the matter has become public for that is the only way the systemic failings will be rectified. Catholicism is not for the non-critical Evangelical crowd who like to be told what to do and think. Catholic theology demands and requires a questioning faith.

  46. Anon says

    Even when young sex was rarely mentioned in homilies during the mass. The Catholic Church in practice, if not in dogma, is fairly liberal, particularly in the US.

    One should never feed the trolls, as they say, but Fed should know that many teen males have homosexual urges that will fade with time and are truly straight in the end, so your struggle was perhaps easier than you realized. Now, if you want a real struggle, try losing 100 lbs or getting off drugs and booze.

    And Rudy is correct, being gay is a gift, though from where is hard to say. Let’s face it, guys can be adorable, so to be able to appreciate that is a big bonus. Were the devil involved I doubt love would be possible. So until you can explain away the love, the devil is not a plausible agent.

  47. mark m says

    Good point Anon… many young males experiment with same sex partners and go on to develope as hetero. It’s natural.

    But some of us weren’t merely tempted to experiment, this attraction was deeply ingrained. Even when I was a conservative Evangelical youth, I never believed the “Devil” was responsible. I sure believed that if a cure was possible, God would grant it.

    Guess what? All the praying and self humility before God did produce an answer:

    You’re exactly as I made you.

  48. GBM says

    I knew someone in high school who was convinced he was possessed by a ‘gay demon’ that made him like to ogle boys’ asses. Funny thing about it, he never seemed that conflicted about his sexuality in practice and was one of the most sexually exuberant persons I have ever met. It was only when he was talking about his future (of settling down and giving his mom some grandkids) that he ever mentioned eventually having that dad-blasted gay demon exercized.

  49. Zeke says

    So now Haggard is claiming that he BOUGHT meth from the prostitute and received a MASSAGE from him BUT he never USED the meth and never had SEX with the prostitute.

    This man is so full of sh*t I can smell him all the way in Florida.

    He’s certainly not going to earn his forgiveness from me this way.

    Is this man actually trying to use the Clinton, “I did not inhale” and “I did not have sex with that woman” tactic?

    It just shows how far the right wing Republican fundamentalist shill has fallen that he would resort to the tactics of his MOST arch enemy.

  50. Jonathon says

    Andy, I think that it may be time to require registration to post to this site. Too many trolls…..

    Mick, get a grip. Go push your nonsense somewhere else…. you aren’t going to win any friends here by accusing us all of having a “mental disorder”.

  51. Fed says

    I don’t believe anyone from the scriptures can say that homosexuality is a gift from God. That’s deception. Let me share a passage of scripture:

    Romans 1:20-32 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, (30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, (31) Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: (32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Now you can argue that the bible was written by man and that it’s corrupted and… frankly, you can say what you want. But I know by experience who Jesus Christ is and who the devil is. When I said that I was demon possessed, I didn’t tell you why. My grandparents used be involved in satanism and from a child I was introduced to occultism. As a teenager I got involved in lots of things that were devil worship.

    I know what I’m talking about. Now that I know the truth about the bible, who Jesus is, and who Satan is, my life has changed. I don’t have a big ministry like Ted Haggard, but I can tell you that through the power of Jesus Christ, I do cast out devils and they are subject to me in Jesus name. I have seen my own wife delivered from demons and healed of cancer.

    I tell you, God is good and He is a graceful and merciful God. For those who call themselves Christians and say that their homosexuality is a gift from God, what do you say about these scriptures:

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    To define “fornication” in bible terms, from Strongs Dictionary:

    G4205
    πόρνος
    pornos
    por’-nos
    From πέρνημι pernēmi (to sell; akin to the base of G4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), that is, (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine): – fornicator, whoremonger.

    Think about that. I’m not condeming anybody. But don’t call God a liar.

  52. Zeke says

    Fed, it’s interesting that you would quote from the earliest know closeted homosexual to make your point about homosexuality. Paul was the Haggart of his day.

    The day that I claim to be a “Paulian” I will follow the teachings of Paul. Until then I’m sticking with following the teachings of Christ and will continue to refer to myself as a CHRISTian.

    Now if you want to quote me a verse or two from the Gospels and from the words of CHRIST in condemnation of homosexuality then I will be more than happy to engage you in this debate.

    Until then you are wasting your time and your breath as far as I am concerned.

  53. Anon says

    Fed, you’re really doing us a big service here with your wisdom, but consider what would happen if you tried this in Saudi Arabia. Would you be so bold, or is your faith too weak?

  54. GBM says

    But Fed, isn’t it odd that Jesus never spoke out against homosexuality himself? Sure we all know Paul was a cantankerous fellow, but it’s important to keep in mind that Jesus never once mentioned the gays or gay demons, even though he had plenty to say about avarice, self-righteousness, familial attachments, and keeping kosher. I just don’t get why so many Christians focus their energy on a topic that Jesus never even talks about. Sure, the Old Testament says some things about the gays (it says a lot of things though, that are fairly scary, especially involving women being raped), and then there’s always good old Paul to ruin a party, but Jesus, the center of the religion, the Reason for the Season, who is after all the Word, never has a word himself to say against the gays. Funny, huh? I think so.

  55. Zeke says

    Jesus wasn’t even a big fan of keeping Kosher. That’s one of the things that made Him so unpopular with the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and Ted Haggards of His day.

  56. GBM says

    “My grandparents used be involved in satanism and from a child I was introduced to occultism. As a teenager I got involved in lots of things that were devil worship.”

    Also, although I know there are some people that “worship Satan” and there might even be some weirdos that invoke the powers of demons when having gay satanic orgies, I am skeptical about the Satanism experienced during your childhood. I mean, are we talking about Ouiji boards, magic crystals, and Alice Cooper records, or are we talking about smeared goat’s blood and the sacrifice of little babies? Somehow I think its closer to the former, but that’s just me guessing.

  57. GBM says

    Also, Zeke, if your last post responded to mine, I agree with you. I was actually listing subjects that Jesus had spoken out against in some manner, such as avarice, self-righteousness, familial attachments, and keeping kosher.

  58. Zeke says

    Anon, please don’t confuse “wisdom” with “knowledge”.

    I recognize and appreciate Fed’s knowledge but I have yet to find any wisdom in his comments.

    I have no doubt that Fed is sincere in his beliefs but a person can be sincerely wrong. I don’t trust any human who claims to have the answers straight from God or claims to have THE interpretation of the Bible. That isn’t wisdom, that’s arrogance.

    If those beliefs work for him great; I just don’t like it when people try to foist their religious beliefs on others.

    I often state what I believe here but you will NEVER hear me trying to convert anyone into believing like me.

    Fed should live his life the way he believes is right. If someone asks him about why he is how he is or why he believes what he believes then he should tell them.

    I just don’t appreciate him trolling for souls here, trying to make gay people feel as if they are particular sinners in need of his particular brand of salvation.

    That just reeks of snake oil salesman to me regardless of how compassionate he may sound. Good stake oil salesmen know ALL the sales techniques INCLUDING compassion.

  59. anon says

    Zeke: eh, “wisdom” was to be taken sarcastically. If he can preach to us, he can preach to the Saudis first. Good luck with that! Actually, he just needs to get some gay friends and loosen up a little. He sounds emotionally fragile.

  60. Mark says

    I won’t call God a liar. But I sure as hell won’t be calling on God to “defend” me from my own actions. Pull up your pants, Teddy-boy, and stand up like a man. You used your dick like one.

    And I sure as hell don’t need some fanatic spewing the lyrics of his cult, telling me what a man is. I don’t depend on some re-written, re-hashed, re-gurgitated book to tell me what is right or wrong. Pop your head out of your ass and take a look around. People are living free of your sewage and LIKING it.

    And when it gets down to it, all this religion is just hallucination and mind control. I don’t want or need some collared goody-two-shoe telling me how to live my life, or who I can sleep with. This is MY life. Ted obviously needs one. And the words he lives by so carefully? We don’t even know who REALLY wrote or said any of it. You’re just ‘sposed to believe it. Well, then, where’s the fucking quarter that’s ‘sposed to be under my pillow? Pay up or get out of my damned mind.

    And if Mr. FED wants to troll through here spouting off his dumb ass, brain washed lyrics, then I get to set my sights on setting his ass afire with my own venom. Be gone you fucking freak before a house falls on you!

    “Dumb-ass” you say?? You bet. Do you have anything of a brain left or is all sucked in to memorizing pages and pages of lyrics so you can try to find some way to always be right….and everybody else is wrong?

    Yep, I am good and fed up with these damned holy-rollers doing their damndest to railroad us into the closet. I ain’t takin it NO more. Get back in your own yard, and stay off my fucking fence.

    Makes me wonder why those wing nuts don’t make adultery a REAL crime. (OH lord, he was just possessed; he didn’t know what he was doin! But God will save him!) Oh bullshit. There ain’t no salvation. There’s only lookin yourself in the mirror and gettin face to face with the fuckin liar you’re lookin at.

    If this Teddy-boy and McGreevy hid in the closet for all these years – who the hell are they to tell anyone about REALLY being gay and being out there on the street and getting kicked around just for being gay. They don’t know shit about it. But they will write their books and sell their story. They don’t have a message – they have an empty checking account!

    And they give us a bad name and a bad image. Both of them need to just slide back into their own hell and let the rest of us who have stood up for ourselves and our rights demand equality. I sure don’t want either of them to even compare their little jaunt to the 30 years I have been gay. I’ve lived it without their satanic verse and I am damned proud of it.

    Yep, I am good and pissed with this. And I am tired of being cast as “less than” so they can all feel good on sunday morning and suck dick that nite. Piss on them, their “god”, their book, and their lecture.




  61. Zeke says

    WOW!

    Mark, I may be a Christian but I could not agree with you more my friend.

    In my opinion, your message is absolutely right on and your passion is amazing.

    I hope you realize that there are some of us Christians who see our faith as a personal guide to living our OWN lives with love, kindness, justice, forgiveness, charity, humility and community, here in THIS world and not an earned ticket to some perceived afterlife, and certainly not something to be used as a weapon to oppress, degrade or destroy others.

    That is what I think Christ taught and that is the kind of Christian I strive to be.

  62. Zeke says

    Just to add; I have serious doubts if the Paul of the Epistles had a clue about who Christ was or if he had any understanding of His message.

    It seems to me that the teachings of Paul are more often than not in direct conflict with the teachings of Christ.

    Like I said before, I am a Christian not a Paulian.

  63. Mark says

    Zeke,

    You have my respect and admiration. If one chooses to participate in a “faith” it should be that persons experience, and not something everyone else has to live with.

    And I thank you for putting a defining moment on what a REAL Christian is.

  64. Wayne says

    I see now the Church says that he was tempted to the dark side like everone. They now are defending him. What Hypocrits, as usual. Its OK for them to try drugs,sex and them bash the rest of us telling us how eveil we are.Time to out the bastards. Pedaphiles that are married or in relegious cults get off free and without much attention in the media but god help anyone who is gay. Beats are used by married and thos in the closet but who gets the publicity, gays. Down with the hypocrits. I am so sick and tired of being slammed and typecast in my community when so many married guys or so called straight guys approach me for head or fuck when they cant get a girl at the pub and think I am thier piece of meat, them tell everyone I tried to hit on them when I reject them. Damm them. Rot in hell you bastards.

  65. RB says

    “But, if you truly love God, and if the Holy Spirit dwells in you, you will know that homosexuality is a sin and you will want to be free from it. Again, you can take your authority in Christ to cast the devil out in the name of Jesus.”
    Posted by: Fed | Nov 3, 2006 12:50:05 PM

    How to respond to this…as a gay man that lived 35 years TRYING to be straight? I must have not had enough faith as I failed! I cannot imagine anyone deeper in denial or trying harder than I did!!! Fed, GOOD LUCK, you must be a better man than I. Oh how I am being gracious here as what I really want to say contains far too many four letter words. Again, Fed, GOOD LUCK!!!

  66. RB says

    I am not sure if anything “saved me”. I just reached a point where I knew something was wrong. I knew that I could not live the rest of my life and not know what it was like to be with a man. I felt as though I were living someone else’s life. There is something to be said about going through the motions. I was just trying to get through life with no one finding out. I caused NO harm to the gay world. I was not preaching anti-gay trash. I just wanted to live in my bubble. It burst and threw me into a world I was not prepared for.

    I feel for Fed as I know what it is like to tell yourself if you just believe a little more, or have a little more faith, that you too can be straight. But after 35 years, 11 years of marriage and two kids, I was NOT straight or even bi. I was still GAY!

    You can try, you can fight, but you cannot change what you are. I hope that NO ONE will ever make the decision I made and appareantly that Fed has made; to hide and marry a woman. You only hurt more people when you do!

    I hope it works for him! I REALLY, TRULY DO!

  67. GBM says

    RB,

    Thanks for the great story. It’s good to hear that it can end up well for Christians conflicted with their sexuality. I can’t imagine things working out for Fed though if he wants to stick to the straight and narrow-minded. I grew up in an evangelical church that regularly scared gays straight through Christ. I found out later that many of the families there were composed of ex-lesbians and ex-gay men, who copulated with each other for the love of their god. One by one though, many of these members ‘slipped’ and were no longer able live the lies they had constructed. There were intervention groups after such slips but eventually the church ex-communicated those too far gone, and these ex-members were left to rebuild their lives from scratch. I wish Fed the best in life, but from my perspective, it doesn’t look like it’s going to be pretty.

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